The fact is, it doesn't matter what my experience with the game was like. It doesn't matter what yours will be. What matters is what the vast majority of players have experienced and what they will that's at the heart of this thread. Very clearly, as illustrated above, a measly "3%" is all that remains of 100,000 copies sold worldwide. That means that 97% of folks decided that the grind was too much, they were turned off by the blatant and rampant cheating, they couldn't handle the FFA PVP nature of the game, or any other of a plethora of reasons to ditch the game. Ignore my epxerience entirely, I don't care. Take the blinders off, though, and look at the history of this game and you'll realize that the vastmajority of people who stuck with it for any significant time ended up gaining skills or stats through any of a myriad of processes while AFK. Read the official forums. Read the forums here. You'll probably need to go back to early this year and all of last, but you'll see what I mean, but the entire AFK thing has been a widespread problem from day 1, and not just an isolated issue.
Don't misunderstand me - I believe you probably recognize the issue and its scale. What you've yet to realize is how it arrived there and why. I'm trying to clarify the why for you, since by your entire response to me you simply must not, because neither of us really matter in the scope of it all. The topic is "Why does anyone care about AFK macroing?" and in spite of its facetious nature, my very first reply definitely covered a few of the reasons. The rest is a much deeper subject to go into, and - as I said earlier - has been hashed out quite a few times. That's exactly why I gave links to past discussions; I don't intend to beat that dead horse (dead to me, anyway) any further and my experiences only become less valid with time. I do hope that clears things up for you, though.
I'm not wearing any blinders, thank you.
Perhaps you're failing to see my point:
I don't *care* what the history of the game is, why people do it, how many have done it, or how they justify the situation. They're engaging in an activity that allows them to develop their character without actually playing the game, or even being at the keyboard.
It's cheating.
Period.
That's all I "need to understand' about the situation.
I haven't once disagreed that it's cheating. I'm not trying to rationalize why people are cheating. I'm not trying to give merit to any of it whatsoever. What I'm trying to do is explain why anyone cares about it.
Darkfall has sold "100,000" copies. They hold a playerbase of around 3,000 active players across 2 servers. The relevant point is that the grind in DF has been so horrible as to make it one of the, if not THE, primary reasons for leaving the game. It's because of the grind that people have chosen to circumvent a portion of it through finding means to progress while not playing. Many of the players that I spoke with in-game and read about on forums would simply have quit sooner had macroing not been possible. That's not a rationalization nor is it trying to excuse anything. It's merely stating a fact about people I knew when I played. Those people openly and admittedly cheated. Those same people loved almost every aspect of the game except for the absurdly important stats and skills, and the incredible lengths it takes to increase them.
Honestly, you're getting offended as if I'm calling you out on something. My comment about taking off the blinders was made because of your hang-up on not seeing past the cheating part. You were also trying to essentially say that 'people are doing it wrong' yourself by repeating the way you approach games, and that anyone who would resort to such a thing should merely quit. I'm sorry, but the way you feel about someone's actions or why they make them has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they'll continue, or even whether or not they should. It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's why I no longer bother to argue about things like botting, RMT, or cheating in general. It's wrong, it's pointless, and it's stupid, but it's not going to stop just because I don't like it. My only option is to decide if it affects me enough within a given game to make me stop playing.
The bottom line is; you've been pretty myopic so far, choosing only to see the situation from your own perspective without any consideration for someone else's. I don't honestly care about the principle or morality of it - that's not what the thread is about. The OP asked a question, and I've answered it the best way I know how. The only point I've really seen you drive home is that "it's cheating". So essentially, you care because it's cheating, and it isn't right. I agree. There's plenty more to the story than that, though. I suppose if anything, I might've played devil's advocate a bit with you here, but mostly in an attempt to give you a different perspective. I apologize if I offended you somehow.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
I haven't once disagreed that it's cheating. I'm not trying to rationalize why people are cheating. I'm not trying to give merit to any of it whatsoever. What I'm trying to do is explain why anyone cares about it.
Darkfall has sold "100,000" copies. They hold a playerbase of around 3,000 active players across 2 servers. The relevant point is that the grind in DF has been so horrible as to make it one of the, if not THE, primary reasons for leaving the game. It's because of the grind that people have chosen to circumvent a portion of it through finding means to progress while not playing. Many of the players that I spoke with in-game and read about on forums would simply have quit sooner had macroing not been possible. That's not a rationalization nor is it trying to excuse anything. It's merely stating a fact about people I knew when I played. Those people openly and admittedly cheated. Those same people loved almost every aspect of the game except for the absurdly important stats and skills, and the incredible lengths it takes to increase them.
Honestly, you're getting offended as if I'm calling you out on something. My comment about taking off the blinders was made because of your hang-up on not seeing past the cheating part. You were also trying to essentially say that 'people are doing it wrong' yourself by repeating the way you approach games, and that anyone who would resort to such a thing should merely quit. I'm sorry, but the way you feel about someone's actions or why they make them has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they'll continue, or even whether or not they should. It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's why I no longer bother to argue about things like botting, RMT, or cheating in general. It's wrong, it's pointless, and it's stupid, but it's not going to stop just because I don't like it. My only option is to decide if it affects me enough within a given game to make me stop playing.
The bottom line is; you've been pretty myopic so far, choosing only to see the situation from your own perspective without any consideration for someone else's. I don't honestly care about the principle or morality of it - that's not what the thread is about. The OP asked a question, and I've answered it the best way I know how. The only point I've really seen you drive home is that "it's cheating". So essentially, you care because it's cheating, and it isn't right. I agree. There's plenty more to the story than that, though. I suppose if anything, I might've played devil's advocate a bit with you here, but mostly in an attempt to give you a different perspective. I apologize if I offended you somehow.
Not offended at all. I tend to get rather "passionate" when it comes to topics like cheating, hacking, RMT, etc.. so I might have come across more "aggressively" than intended. It's not so much aimed at you, so much as my incredulity of the situation.
In other words: It's nothing personal, and I mean no disrespect, so please don't take it that way.
That said...
I understand there's "more to the story" than the fact that people are cheating. I got that part. All I'm saying is, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.... because cheating is cheating is cheating.
I also acknowledge that many of the reasons people cite for "having to macro" are self-imposed and based entirely on their own expectations not being readily met... not any "fault" of the game itself.
What ever reason, or back-story or history might have led up to it, it - in my opinion - means squat. Because the reality is, people are going to cheat simply because they *want* to. If DF was in an entirely different position.... if it had a huge, thriving population, if the stats were reversed and it had a 97% retention rate with only 3% leaving due to the grind and other reasons... there would just be some other excuse given by the cheaters to justify it.
So, to go into the history of why they do it in DF is, ultimately, meaningless to me. I'm not being myopic... I see the bigger picture... I'm simply stating that it really doesn't matter at the end of the day.
It's cheating, it's playing outside the rules of the game, and it's lame... which is why I personally "care about afk macroing", or any other kind of cheating. I'm very aware of it, I see it happening all the time, in any MMO I play. Doesn't stop me from playing them, but it also doesn't stop me from thinking it's extremely lame, and expressing as much.
And... as I'm starting to remind myself of a broken record at this point... I'll leave it at that lol.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Its not the grind itself that is the reason why they have lost 97K subscribers. It's because many people have cheated to get a very developed character, that makes these people think they have to grind to get to the same level.
Its not much you have to level afk anymore in the this game. They have made some changes to ease it up abit. One of the things that many still feel they have to macro is self buffs for example. People afk swim to get some stats up such as quiqness.
The major difference between a vet and a month or two old character in for example a archery/melee fight would be the quiqness stat. You gain that stat way to slow by only playing the game, and the benefit from having it high is to big.
I have vet character myself, not overly impressive stats, and I started a second character and leveled up all the basic skills and masteries in a few weeks. And biggest difference between the characters were the quiqkness.
So I can totally understand players that feel they have to afk swim to increase that stat for example.
Another thing that people very often "afk" macro is a passive skill in greater magic named Greater Magic Mana Efficiency. When you get it to 75 you can buy a skill named Mana Conservation that some people feel the urge to have. I don't have it myself yet even tho I'm getting close. Need to macro probably 20 or 30 hours more to get it, and I try to do my macroing attended.
In my oppinion alot could have been solved with a cap on skills and a decay. They could even made some options so you could level some skills when not being online aswell then, like in EVE.
But to reply the OP. I care about it, because its cheating.
All I'll say is, in my opinion, if all someone can get out of DF is afk macroing to get to "high level PvP" to find enjoyment... they have a very limited imagination.
My main concern is that DF has a system that actually lets you AFK macro and increase skills. Why does the skill-gain system even allow that? It's great to live by your principles and all--personally I'd never AFK "play" any game. But a system that allows people to "cheat" instead of play the game normally to increase their skills means that some people will do so.
At the end of the day DF is a PvP-centric game where skill levels do make a difference. It shouldn't be possible to increase those skills by not actually playing the game.
Not offended at all. I tend to get rather "passionate" when it comes to topics like cheating, hacking, RMT, etc.. so I might have come across more "aggressively" than intended. It's not so much aimed at you, so much as my incredulity of the situation.
In other words: It's nothing personal, and I mean no disrespect, so please don't take it that way.
That said...
I understand there's "more to the story" than the fact that people are cheating. I got that part. All I'm saying is, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.... because cheating is cheating is cheating.
I also acknowledge that many of the reasons people cite for "having to macro" are self-imposed and based entirely on their own expectations not being readily met... not any "fault" of the game itself.
What ever reason, or back-story or history might have led up to it, it - in my opinion - means squat. Because the reality is, people are going to cheat simply because they *want* to. If DF was in an entirely different position.... if it had a huge, thriving population, if the stats were reversed and it had a 97% retention rate with only 3% leaving due to the grind and other reasons... there would just be some other excuse given by the cheaters to justify it.
So, to go into the history of why they do it in DF is, ultimately, meaningless to me. I'm not being myopic... I see the bigger picture... I'm simply stating that it really doesn't matter at the end of the day.
It's cheating, it's playing outside the rules of the game, and it's lame... which is why I personally "care about afk macroing", or any other kind of cheating. I'm very aware of it, I see it happening all the time, in any MMO I play. Doesn't stop me from playing them, but it also doesn't stop me from thinking it's extremely lame, and expressing as much.
And... as I'm starting to remind myself of a broken record at this point... I'll leave it at that lol.
All good man! I get the same way sometimes myself. Enjoyable discussion going back and forth with you either way
I guess that to me, it just seems important to know how things came to be the way they are. I mean, if Darkfall wanted AFK progression, they could've gone the way of EVE. Still, that's the way most folks looked at macroing. The whole thing, IMO, stems from an inherently flawed system in the first place that has yet to be remedied, hence the state they're in right now. Hopefully though, DF2010 and the rumored "re-launch" will give folks the chance for a fresh start, and Darkfall's devs the opportunity to really enforce the rules they set way back in March 2009 (which were never strictly adhered to). I've always been a little jealous of the folks who played from launch when things were all fresh, new, and equal, and I'd really love the opportunity to have that chance myself - especially if they crack down on the cheats.
Originally posted by Tshaka92
Its not the grind itself that is the reason why they have lost 97K subscribers. It's because many people have cheated to get a very developed character, that makes these people think they have to grind to get to the same level.
Absolutely fantastic observation. To extend that a bit, I'd have to say that the power gained by those who've cheated to get their characters only serves to exacerbate the issue. That's a major part of why I'd love a fresh start and less intense grind. Skill decay wouldn't be terrible, either!
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Its not the grind itself that is the reason why they have lost 97K subscribers. It's because many people have cheated to get a very developed character, that makes these people think they have to grind to get to the same level.
Absolutely fantastic observation. To extend that a bit, I'd have to say that the power gained by those who've cheated to get their characters only serves to exacerbate the issue. That's a major part of why I'd love a fresh start and less intense grind. Skill decay wouldn't be terrible, either!
In my opinion, it's pretty sad when a person feels they need to play a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way.
There's something to be said for thinking for one's self and not feeling you "have to follow the pack".
Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there... people feeling they're supposed to play a certain way because that's how others are playing.... and so AV should change the game to suit them.
No wonder people burn out on MMOs so easily these days. They're so caught up in following someone else's trail through the games, instead of forming their own. Pretty sad, in my opinion.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In my opinion, it's pretty sad when a person feels they need to play a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way.
There's something to be said for thinking for one's self and not feeling you "have to follow the pack".
Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there... people feeling they're supposed to play a certain way because that's how others are playing.... and so AV should change the game to suit them.
No wonder people burn out on MMOs so easily these days. They're so caught up in following someone else's trail through the games, instead of forming their own. Pretty sad, in my opinion.
Of course people are trying to follow each other... Thats because this is supposed to be an extremely competitive PvP-oriented MMO. People want to have a strong competitive character so they can take part in the best aspects the game has to offer and they want to get to that point as fast as possible. AFK macroing allows them to bypass some of the tedium and get their characters to that point more quickly. And since it is no secret that macroing is a huge part of this game, of course they are going to think that they need to macro if so many people did so before them...
I think the main problem with Darkfall is the fact that people need to do this in the first place. It is indicative of a design flaw when so many players resort to cheating just to experience the key selling-points of the game.
In my opinion, it's pretty sad when a person feels they need to play a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way.
There's something to be said for thinking for one's self and not feeling you "have to follow the pack".
Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there... people feeling they're supposed to play a certain way because that's how others are playing.... and so AV should change the game to suit them.
No wonder people burn out on MMOs so easily these days. They're so caught up in following someone else's trail through the games, instead of forming their own. Pretty sad, in my opinion.
Of course people are trying to follow each other... Thats because this is supposed to be an extremely competitive PvP-oriented MMO. People want to have a strong competitive character so they can take part in the best aspects the game has to offer and they want to get to that point as fast as possible. AFK macroing allows them to bypass some of the tedium and get their characters to that point more quickly. And since it is no secret that macroing is a huge part of this game, of course they are going to think that they need to macro if so many people did so before them...
I think the main problem with Darkfall is the fact that people need to do this in the first place. It is indicative of a design flaw when so many players resort to cheating just to experience the key selling-points of the game.
-shrug-
I've never agreed with that mindset, in any MMO.
And it's not just DF where I see that mindset... It's in every MMORPG. People go into a new MMO championing it as a chance to develop their own character... and then immediately bring up the current "best" template for their given class, following it point for point, spec for spec...
They claim they want a game that offers a lot of skills that they can choose from to suit their own playstyle... and then immediately start on the path to making themself a carbon copy of everyone else...
Then, in many cases, those same people come around some time later, ironically, complain about the game feeling "limited" and demand that the developers do something about it... meanwhile, they're off to some WIKI site to re-spec themself after the latest cookie-cutter template that someone else took the time to figure out.
It's just such a self-defeating behavior to me.
There's also this conceit a lot of players seem to have, where they assume that because it's how *they're* playing it, that it must be the "best way" or the "right way", or the "only way" to play it. It never occurs to them that thre may be - and very likely are - other options, approaches and builds they can explore... if they just pull themself out of their cookie-cutter mindset long enough to bother trying.
I just prefer to think for myself and play the game as I enjoy it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Its not the grind itself that is the reason why they have lost 97K subscribers. It's because many people have cheated to get a very developed character, that makes these people think they have to grind to get to the same level.
Absolutely fantastic observation. To extend that a bit, I'd have to say that the power gained by those who've cheated to get their characters only serves to exacerbate the issue. That's a major part of why I'd love a fresh start and less intense grind. Skill decay wouldn't be terrible, either!
In my opinion, it's pretty sad when a person feels they need to play a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way.
There's something to be said for thinking for one's self and not feeling you "have to follow the pack".
Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there... people feeling they're supposed to play a certain way because that's how others are playing.... and so AV should change the game to suit them.
No wonder people burn out on MMOs so easily these days. They're so caught up in following someone else's trail through the games, instead of forming their own. Pretty sad, in my opinion.
It really has nothing to do with playing "a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way." It has more to do with - as I very clearly stated - beginning this PVP-based game fresh and on even footing with my fellow gamers. I can't even fathom how you somehow inferred that we were "getting at" anything else.
Seriously, screw the pack, or the "FOTM" build. I'll pick my skills and find my own style of playing that I find to be the most fun. The ability to do so alongside other players who have no advantage over me due to exploits, bugs, macros or AFK skill-ups is what I crave. How you so easily misconstrued what I said there is beyond me. I've already covered how flawed I think some of the game's systems are at their core, and a big part of that is the fact that in Darkfall, at a point, there becomes a single most effective build that most people will get shoehorned into.
And really, if you don't realize that people want the game to change for the greater good of the game itself and not the selfish desires of a few, then I'm not sure what's left to be discussed. Darkfall has already taken the route of "keep the selfish vets happy" and we see where that's landed them. They now have major changes planned, and I for one can't wait to see them and how they affect the game, and hope that it will only be in a positive manner. Honestly, the only reason I still watch this forum from time to time is because of how much I really did like the actual game world and combat mechanics. I just hated the community the game had bred when I joined, and the very mentality being discussed in this thread. The only way to change the entire state of the game would be with a thorough re-vamp and the launch of fresh servers to allow for new and different types of players to once again have the chance to shape the world from the ground up.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Seriously, screw the pack, or the "FOTM" build. I'll pick my skills and find my own style of playing that I find to be the most fun. The ability to do so alongside other players who have no advantage over me due to exploits, bugs, macros or AFK skill-ups is what I crave. How you so easily misconstrued what I said there is beyond me. I've already covered how flawed I think some of the game's systems are at their core, and a big part of that is the fact that in Darkfall, at a point, there becomes a single most effective build that most people will get shoehorned into.
You are taking something I said and twisting it into something else entirely. I'm talking about the mentality that *players* have.. in *any* MMO... not just Darkfall, and I'm pretty sure I even indicated that. The mentality I'm getting at exists by many players, in any MMO I've ever played. It's no unique to DF or its particular circumstances.
That said... let me put this past you...
Your entire premise is based on "being on uneven ground with people who are macroing and afk skilling-up".
What about those who are playing the game legit? Those who aren't macroing or afk-skilling up? Those who aren't consumed with this intense need to "catch up to and be competitive with the vets"? Are you on any more even ground with them when they're farther along and more developed than you are simply because they didn't macro?Of course you aren't.
Should you assume *everyone* who is ahead of you in the game has macroed to get there, and cry foul? Of course you shouldn't, and I'm sure you don't. Or at least I hope you don't.
When you meet someone out in the world somewhere who starts fighting you, can you tell whether they've gotten to that point through macroing or through honestly playing the game and building up the character themself? Are you prepared to make that assumption either way?
And the even better question is... Does it really matter? A player with superior skills, better gear and, perhaps, better PvP player skills is going to beat you, regardless. Does it matter if they've macroed themselves up or earned them by playing legit?You're just as defeated in either case, aren't you? Of course you are.
So... are you really on "uneven ground", any more than you would be in any other game under similar circumstances? Or are you simply characterizing it that way out of frustration that there are players who are more advanced than you and would likely defeat you in a fight?
Let's say you got your brand-new server where everyone is starting from scratch... Should someone who starts 6 months after you did automatically assume "oh, they're way more skilled-up than I am and I can't compete on even ground with them... that's not fair"? Should they assume you macro'd your way up simply because you're farther along than them?
And really, if you don't realize that people want the game to change for the greater good of the game itself and not the selfish desires of a few, then I'm not sure what's left to be discussed. Darkfall has already taken the route of "keep the selfish vets happy" and we see where that's landed them. They now have major changes planned, and I for one can't wait to see them and how they affect the game, and hope that it will only be in a positive manner. Honestly, the only reason I still watch this forum from time to time is because of how much I really did like the actual game world and combat mechanics. I just hated the community the game had bred when I joined, and the very mentality being discussed in this thread. The only way to change the entire state of the game would be with a thorough re-vamp and the launch of fresh servers to allow for new and different types of players to once again have the chance to shape the world from the ground up.
And guess what's going to happen in that scenario? Many players are still going to out-level you, are still going to progress faster than you can, get better gear than you have... and are still going to be able to defeat you in combat. Just like they would now.
Are you going to come back at that point and claim that the game is "unbalanced" because other players were able to progress farther than you and so you're not on even footing with them?
Or, perhaps, are you going to accept that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how many server wipes a developer does, how many "fresh starts" a game has, that there will always be players who are farther along, more skilled-up, better geared and better equipped than you, and that perhaps it's pointless to get caught up in it to the point that it kills your own enjoyment of the game, because you're worried about how other players got to where they are?
As I said... it seems awfully self-defeating to base my own enjoyment of a game on what *others* are doing, or have done. And, to reiterate again... I've seen this same scenario play out in myriad MMOs... PvP and PvE alike.
I'd rather play the game at my own pace, based on my own choices and enjoy myself.
Incidentally... you make it a point earlier that DF is a "PvP based MMO" and so that's why it's an issue. I know you've stated you played FFXI as well... I'm sure I don't need to remind you that players in that MMO do the same crap... complain about how it's unfair that some players are farther along and they'll never be able to catch up to join the elite LS's to farm the top-end HNMs because they "started too late", etc... Same crap, different setting.. and FFXI is not a PvP MMO.
While they're complaining about "not being able to catch up to long-time players" and basing their entire experience on what others are doing... Other players, rather than complaining about it, are busy working on their own characters and putting together their own end-game LSs to take on the same content.
My point is: it boils down to the mentality and focus of the individual. The game in question is almost incidental.
You can either dwell on "how much farther along others are and how they got there and whether it's fair or not", or you can just freaking play the game, do what you want, at your own pace, for your *own* enjoyment... and forget what others are doing. That's a personal choice that no developer can make for you.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You are taking something I said and twisting it into something else entirely. I'm talking about the mentality that *players* have.. in *any* MMO... not just Darkfall, and I'm pretty sure I even indicated that. The mentality I'm getting at exists by many players, in any MMO I've ever played. It's no unique to DF or its particular circumstances.
Fair enough. Still, within the context of the thread so far I'm sure you can understand how I could take it the way I did. After all, you made it personal when you said "Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there...". It certainly seemed more directed at Darkfall as well, given that it has been the focus of the discussion to that point, and even moreso when you added, "and so AV should change the game to suit them."
Originally posted by WSIMike
That said... let me put this past you...
Your entire premise is based on "being on uneven ground with people who are macroing and afk skilling-up".
What about those who are playing the game legit? Those who aren't macroing or afk-skilling up? Those who aren't consumed with this intense need to "catch up to and be competitive with the vets"? Are you on any more even ground with them when they're farther along and more developed than you are simply because they didn't macro?Of course you aren't.
Actually, this is why I've stressed the need to understand the history of the game to this point. When I say equal footing, I only mean to a degree, of course. The major issue I have with the established population is how much of what they have has been gained through cheats, exploits, etc.. There's no such thing as even footing with any of those players, and it's largely irrelevant to me in a large-scale PVP-oriented game (particularly one that's FFA and where wealth in skills and resources reigns supreme) if I'm on equal ground with the players who are legitimately playing the game. Clearly, if I begin playing one month after someone else who has an equivalent amount of available playtime as myself, I'll consistantly be one month behind them until a cap has been reached. Also, players who've played the game far longer will be in a more advantageous position. However, this is why I strongly advocate a reduction of the grind, decay for skills and/or stats, and possibly a curve that takes away the massive benefit of time being greater than ability. They already took a step in that direction by making HP gains faster at lower vitality and strength, then slower the higher you get. I'd like to see more of that.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Should you assume *everyone* who is ahead of you in the game has macroed to get there, and cry foul? Of course you shouldn't, and I'm sure you don't. Or at least I hope you don't.
When you meet someone out in the world somewhere who starts fighting you, can you tell whether they've gotten to that point through macroing or through honestly playing the game and building up the character themself? Are you prepared to make that assumption either way?
And the even better question is... Does it really matter? A player with superior skills, better gear and, perhaps, better PvP player skills is going to beat you, regardless. Does it matter if they've macroed themselves up or earned them by playing legit?You're just as defeated in either case, aren't you? Of course you are.
So... are you really on "uneven ground", any more than you would be in any other game under similar circumstances? Or are you simply characterizing it that way out of frustration that there are players who are more advanced than you and would likely defeat you in a fight?
Let's say you got your brand-new server where everyone is starting from scratch... Should someone who starts 6 months after you did automatically assume "oh, they're way more skilled-up than I am and I can't compete on even ground with them... that's not fair"? Should they assume you macro'd your way up simply because you're farther along than them? And guess what's going to happen in that scenario? Many players are still going to out-level you, are still going to progress faster than you can, get better gear than you have... and are still going to be able to defeat you in combat. Just like they would now.
Are you going to come back at that point and claim that the game is "unbalanced" because other players were able to progress farther than you and so you're not on even footing with them? Or, perhaps, are you going to accept that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how many server wipes a developer does, how many "fresh starts" a game has, that there will always be players who are farther along, more skilled-up, better geared and better equipped than you, and that perhaps it's pointless to get caught up in it to the point that it kills your own enjoyment of the game, because you're worried about how other players got to where they are?
Absolutely not. However, when the trend thus far has been that the greater majority have macroed or gained skills while AFK, I would certainly approach the game with more of a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. Not that I really need proof or even want it, just that when you understand how widespread the issue is, or at least has been, it's a bit easier to be cynical I suppose (and I really hate to hold a cynical view).
That'd be largely irrelevant. A person beats my ass, they beat my ass! Hopefully I learn something from the encounter and get better in the future. That, or I eventually come to realize (like some/most) that the gap is so massive from new-ish player to 'veteran' that I'll never spend the time or maintain the patience to continually enjoy taking such beatdowns with regularity that I'll move on and check back in on the game from time to time.
Oh man, I'm so relieved to see you say this. Now you get it. Now you understand why this OP made the topic, and why I've said the things I have. This is the crux of the entire issue. That one point is exactly why many quit, many cheat, and many hate the grind. What you possibly haven't seen yet is the decisive advantage gained by vastly superior skills and stats, and possibly even gear. Given how much of my experience is out of date, it's hard for me to speak on this part of the current state of the game. However, the case when I played was one where a 1-month character might as well have been a level 30 in greens vs. a level 80 in epics in WoW. The major difference being, of course, the obscene amount of time it'd take to be competitive at that level, and clearly that it's not terribly often that you're getting ramrodded by 80's at level 30 in WoW (dodge Stranglethorn ffs).
Pretty much summed it up in point 3, as well as my previous arguments on that point. The gap in Darkfall with time is quite vast. Much more so (IMO) than most games I've ever played. It's really a moot point to try and make comparisons.
This is why I strongly advocate (like plenty others) a complete overhaul of the skill and stat system. Well, maybe not a complete overhaul, but at least some major adjustments that would allow for progression while keeping the playing field more level. Honestly, no matter how you approach the game or choose to play it, there's no denying the intention and focus of the game as a PVP-based MMORPG. The incredible PVE-based grind and massive gap created by stats and skills should never have been such an issue (more IMO disclaimerness).
Given the possibility of point #5, this would be less of a problem. The time and gap between new and old player would be much more tolerable. Where other players are was only my concern when a pack of 20-30 raiders could jump over the walls of my last clan's city, soak up tower damage, other forms of player-based ranged damage, and also take folks down in melee in multiples at a time, essentially gaining free-reign at a point vs. superior numbers (at least double). Granted, that clan wasn't exactly the most skilled or progressed that I'd seen, and that only took place once, but the glaring difference in balance when fighting those types of raiders was quite the turnoff. I really enjoyed dueling other, more advanced characters. The trouble set in when realizing just how much time and effort of doing the same repetative actions with little to no satisfaction in PVP (and the constant threat of being ganked and losing all your shit to a player you couldn't possibly compete against) it would really take to get to the happy place where the greater fun and features of the game would really set in. That's why it's easy to get "caught up" in where other players are, and why it makes it so much more bitter when you know - in some cases - that they cheated to get there. It's even worse when you sincerely love the game, its potential, and the fun you were having up til that point.
Originally posted by WSIMike
As I said... it seems awfully self-defeating to base my own enjoyment of a game on what *others* are doing, or have done. And, to reiterate again... I've seen this same scenario play out in myriad MMOs... PvP and PvE alike.
I'd rather play the game at my own pace, based on my own choices and enjoy myself.
Incidentally... you make it a point earlier that DF is a "PvP based MMO" and so that's why it's an issue. I know you've stated you played FFXI as well... I'm sure I don't need to remind you that players in that MMO do the same crap... complain about how it's unfair that some players are farther along and they'll never be able to catch up to join the elite LS's to farm the top-end HNMs because they "started too late", etc... Same crap, different setting.. and FFXI is not a PvP MMO.
While they're complaining about "not being able to catch up to long-time players" and basing their entire experience on what others are doing... Other players, rather than complaining about it, are busy working on their own characters and putting together their own end-game LSs to take on the same content.
I could agree with your first sentence, if not for the next. Hopefully the numbered points above lend those statements some clarity.
As for the bit on FFXI, I couldn't possibly agree with you more with regards to a PVE-based game. I don't give a crap who did what and how in FFXI. It didn't bother me one iota when I joined the game what kind of an advantage the JP playeres had vs. NA. In fact, any PVE-based game I've ever joined (most recently, EQ2) I never, ever worried about rushing in my chase of the carrot that everyone else was feverishly racing towards, and I only played that game last year - 5 years into its release! The people in those games who think there's some merit to dodging the entire journey just to blast their way into the super-happy-fun-time-end-game are absurd. That, or they mustn't like the game that much in the first place to want to skip so much of it. Regardless, I'm with you in just how pointless that is.
And yup, that's exactly how I approached the game in my time. I joined and helped to build the IRON linkshell on Bismarck which became one of the top NA linkshells in pretty short time. Understand; I have zero interest in "world firsts" or any of that garbage. They're meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I did take pride, however, in accomplishing certain things that hadn't been done by other NA linkshells yet due to our superior organization and quality players. I would've felt that way regardless, though, because of how well our group worked together on the whole.
Originally posted by WSIMike
My point is: it boils down to the mentality and focus of the individual. The game in question is almost incidental.
You can either dwell on "how much farther along others are and how they got there and whether it's fair or not", or you can just freaking play the game, do what you want, at your own pace, for your *own* enjoyment... and forget what others are doing. That's a personal choice that no developer can make for you.
That's only true to a certain extent, and the game in question is only incidental if the games in question are of a very similar nature. Darkfall and FFXI are polar opposites, and illustrate that point quite well.
Really, dwelling on others' progress in a game is only relevant within the confines of certain types of games. Darkfall is that type of game, and hopefully you're all the clearer as to why I feel that way now. Unfortunately, the devs - in this case - do have the power to choose how emphasized that can and will be. Surely, some players can completely ignore and avoid the type of pressure one might feel when they get regularly wasted in PVP battles. Most, on the other hand, cannot. I won't reference the incredible attrition rate of subscribers in Darkfall here (whoops! lol).
Honestly, Mike, I hope none of this back and forth has offended you. I'd hope you would recognize respect when you see it, what with my constant struggle to manipulate this site's damned quoting system to format properly, nevermind the time taken to respond to you with well-thought replies. Also, I'm not trying to be overly didactic here, but as I've said earlier in the thread; I think some of your points come from a lack of experience with this game just yet. That, or things are simply that much different than when I played. Either way, interesting stuff to discuss. I'm havin fun, and at least it's more entertaining than discussing FFXIV, hah.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Just want to say it's refreshing to see an intelligent discussion between two people that doesn't revert into a fanboy/hater mudslinging contest. Especially in the DF forums.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I would agree Nizar, it is refreshing that there is civil discourse. I would like to say I played for about 10 months, not long after release. As an example, we had a guy in our alliance that macro'd all his fire magic into the 90's. He was a shit player. He was well known to our enemies though. Whenever he would help in a hunt or anytime in pvp, peeps either ran away or went for him straight away. He wasn't very good, and people knew it but he could nuke you and your team to death.
We(my clan) always laughed at him because he wasn't very good, but was macro'd up. He was an interesting problem. Acid pool glitching, afk swimming, running, macroing heal self/other, blah blah, blah was all very prevalent. I personally hated bloodwalls, but it was damn near mandatory because the other large clans were doing it.
All of this changed when they made the xp gains from PVE much, much more than PvP. This got everyone out of the player cities and out into the world. To think that afk macro'ing didn't change the game, is short sighted. However, at this point, what has happened, has happened.
If you want to play DF, you should. Joining a clan after a few days, joining voice comms, keeping your mouth shut and assisting will get you a long way. Like EvE, territory means something.
The best part about AFK macroers was they were regent pinata's though. We would go to player cities at odd times on the NA server looking for afkers. Occasionally we were lucky and literally would get thousands of regs from several of them.
P.S. Pyramid quoting on top of pyramid quoting makes me want to stomp on kittens.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
... - I think the quotes have become quite long enough ... :-p
Well, I guess where we agree to disagree is where it comes to it being different in a PvP game versus a PvE game.
It may be that my enjoyment of the game doesn't ride as much on PvP alone as it does for you, and so it's not as important to me. PvP in Darkfall is an ever-present possibility, no matter what I'm doing. It's not my main focus. That's me.
But then, even with PvP... I see a lot of people complaining that you can't PvP against Vets soon enough and so there's no PvP in the game. That is simply and completely wrong. I encountered plenty of PvP in my 2 week trial period alone, without even looking for it, and most of it was against players of the same relative skill level as me. Only one or two completely destroyed me. The others were pretty good fights. But that's another topic altogether.
To me, a game is a game is a game. Whether it's fighting mobs, other players, or a combination of both... it's a game at the end of the day. If others can only enjoy a game by cheating their way to the end-game, well... I covered my opinion of that some time back with the example of my brother and his girlfriend using a walkthrough guide to beat The Longest Journey and then bragging how they beat it in 2 days.
I fully expect to get my ass handed to me in a PvP MMO, and pondering whether those doing so did it by macroing or cheating their way ultimately means nothing to me. It's not even worth worrying about.
There does seem to be a degree of concern over how others are playing (whether they macroed or not, etc) throughout your post and I guess that's what I can't relate to, at least not in that context.
I was dealing with players who hacked/botted/RMT'd their way into the higher levels and the best gear in Lineage 2 all the time. They dominated the "Olympiad" and pretty much controlled who had Hero status for a given month (think characters on steroids) and used that to dominate castle sieges and other PvP. Some of the more "obnoxious" clans would show up to a siege they had no personal interest in just to screw with people and decide who got the castle or not. Talk about abuse of power.
If one of those clans decided they wanted your castle, not even because they needed it... just because they were bored on a Saturday and it happened to be the sign-up period for sieges... you may as well leave the door open, the beds made and the red carpet rolled out... because if they decided to sign up for a castle your clan owned, they were very likely getting it. That is unless you got some serious firepower to help you out. One or two alliances routinely dominated the server at any given time, and they were all pretty much comprised of entirely of botted/RMT'd characters. We still PvP'd, win or lose, we had fun... and we did our thing.
We also knew that at some point, they'd get sloppy. Another weakness of powerful alliances is that they take their "absolute power" for granted and don't think anyone would *seriously* try to take them on. So, on some weekend, when their egos almost inevitably results in spreading themselves too thin, or not making a strong enough showing for a castle they own... they end up losing it. And *oh boy* does the rage fly.
War declarations pop up left and right from them, every clan in their alliance and even some of the clans outside their alliance friendly to them. They're such sore losers that taking a castle away from them sends them into an indignant rage. It's like, "WHAT?! They took *our* castle?! We are the most powerful alliance on the server!! We've poured hundreds of hours into botting our characters!! Hundreds of dollars into buying adena to get the best gear!!! We own this server!!!". Then they start e-raging in a global chat channel... talking smack to cover up their humility over losing their castle to a "no-name" clan. It's a wonderful sight to behold. As I've said before, it's a lot of fun to turn people's egos against them.
It wasn't only about winning the siege, or winning in PvP, it was about enjoying the activity itself as well. I sense there's a lack of that from some people in DF (as I do, incidentally, in other MMOs as well). They do what they do only for the rewards, not for the enjoyment of the activity itself. Another thing that seems to be commonplace, but that I can't relate to. Not that I'm better or worse for it... just different.
The situation was very similar, overall, to what goes on in DF by my understanding. The victory, and all its spoils, almost certainly goes to the cheaters.
Did that stop me from playing the rest of the game, getting into PvP encounters myself - win or lose - and enjoying myself? Not in the slightest. I played and enjoyed Lineage 2 for over 3 years. I had a great group of friends I made in that game - some of which spilled over into real life friendships over time, and we had a great time. We PvP'd, we PvE'd, we goofed around, etc.. We'd see members of the top clans/alliances botting in some area and have a laugh at how lame it was.. then continue on our way.
I understand many others don't share that sentiment and find it to be a very big problem that others are so much more powerful... but again, I'm looking at it in the context that at any given point in the game, there's *always* going to be players who can beat my ass. It's part of the game. So what's the point of worrying about it? Why mire my own experience down with concerns of what others are doing, or whether or not they got their skills legitimately. It makes absolutely zero difference at the end of the day. I'm playing the game for my own enjoyment, on my own terms. That's my point-of-view.
Though, again, I realize mine seems to be an unpopular one in Agon.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
if people want to pay money to have a macro running on their pc then i would say let them.......its their money.
Personaly i enjoy the actual playing part of a game.....silly me.
Well, I don't think cheating should be allowed in a game at all... and I love when I hear stories of people who were known for botting/hacking/RMT'ing getting banned. Because all that time thinking they were "the shit" because they botted their way into high levels and RMT'd their way into the top gear came to naught in the end.
And it's the icing on the cake when they go into the forums and rage about it... as though some injustice had been done to them because "they paid their sub fee!!". That's always a good laugh, seeing someone who used to swagger around in-game like they were some untouchable king of the server being reduced to a whiney baby because their toys were taken away.
So, if there's any purpose cheaters serve in a MMO at all, it's the entertainment value they bring when they're eventually nailed for it... assuming they are. Some developers are woefully slow in dealing with it.
It's even better when those same people come back with a new account later... and do it again.
That said... I agree... what's the point of playing a game that you're spending so much time not actually playing? This is why my friends and myself would laugh at people we knew were botters in game, because of the incredible egos they had, how they'd run around calling others 'n00bs' and saying "lrn2ply"... meanwhile, at least half their character's development, typically more, was done in some RMT bot train while they were afk.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
One problem will never be solved. The human race cheats in any way they can whenever they can at whatever they can. It boils down to choice and most choose to cheat. That being said another flaw is humans all want to feel superior. This is what drives the cheating. Business do it, governments do it, the list is endless. Sadly it even goes all the way down to our recreation.
One of the main reasons players macro in Darkfall is due to magic being out of balance. If AV ever gets this in balance the macroing (at least for magic) will drop to a very low level.
Even with the cheaters and the magic balance issue and the fact I suck at pvp I still enjoy the game for what it is.
Darkfall is a game you live in it's not a game you play.
The next time your sitting in traffic going to work or buying something from a store or making a deposit at your bank remeber the person who is next to you or staring you in the eyes while saying "thank you" is a cheater and a hack in real life. Always thinking of ways to "cut corners" to make a bigger profit or get that new cool cell phone or whatever object is dangling in their mind to drive them to cheat.
Cheating is a way of human life that is not an unusual event in Darkfall alone. Cheating is a flaw in ones moral system.
I think another big part of it is that the game starts to feel very repetitive and boring after a while to many of us. I was really enjoying the PvE for about 3 months, but after that time I started getting really bored of skilling up on mobs. The novelty of Darkfall's unique combat system began to wear off and I still was not vet-competitive PVP ready. So I was left with the same choice as so many are in this game... do I attempt to bypass the activities I find tedious and macro and exploit every loophole in the game or do I quit out of boredom? Simply playing is no longer an option once the activities involved become so mindlessly repetitive that going to work sounds more entertaining... Still, a lot of us TRY to hold out despite the fact we are no longer having fun just so we can reach that end game PvP that we have all heard is so epic. Macros become the only way that many of us can reach that goal without going insane.
Some people manage to hold out... others like me end up quitting rather than suffering through it. Its a shame because the game did not feel this way to begin with. It just required SO MUCH time that I couldn't keep interested in the same activities over and over. It would probably be different if there were more things to do and more variety around the world, but there really isn't. The game is utterly lacking in this regard and content is very few and far between. I am envious of those of you who remain entertained doing the same things over and over again. You have (or will) likely reach the point in the game that I wanted to experience. Unfortunately it seems clear that the vast majority does not have the patience to ever reach that point... which is clearly reflected in Darkfall's population.
I was really enjoying the PvE for about 3 months, but after that time I started getting really bored of skilling up on mobs. The novelty of Darkfall's unique combat system began to wear off and I still was not vet-competitive PVP ready.
3 months is more than enough time for you to have developed your character to a competitive level, if you chose to focus your training on areas unrelated to combat (such as crafting, gathering, etc...) that was your choice and is no fault of the game or the game design.
My new reroll is barely 2 weeks into his progression and I just broke 310 hp. I'll be well over 350 by the end of my first month, with nearly all my stats at 45 or better, some into the 50s and 60s, rigor is cruising towards 75 and I'll have ignore pain very soon as well as GA mastery to work on, all the archery skills and a very solid start on magic. I can kill a player with a 5 month head-start on me with little to no issue at all, 1v1.
I work 8 hours a day like most average working stiffs, and am only able to play during off hours.
One problem will never be solved. The human race cheats in any way they can whenever they can at whatever they can.
Another way of putting it is that the human race seeks the quickest route to a particular goal, and so long as(in this context) it's macro'ing, that will never change.
And yeah, if I were playing Darkfall, a PvP-centric game, I'd care.
I'd bet it's precisely why Eve went with a time-based advancement system with dimishing returns and an upper limit to individual skills.
If you play a game, any kind of games, there are rules.
The fundamental rule is that you should folllow the other rules, of course.
If you don't, whether it can be noticed or not, you break the major rule.
Basically, you are like a knight who wowed to defend the weak and kill them thereafter.
Edit: just in case the metaphor is not clear, doing things just like you are in-game when you are not is not the way MMOs are built in the first place.
Good to see some of Asheron's Call macroers went over to DF after being banned in AC.
The reason everyone hates AFK macroing (or UCM in AC terms Unattended Combat Macroing) is because it gives you a huge advantage over the people who actually play the game. If you get to have your character advancing/looting while you're off doing other things 24/7 and another player is only advancing their character during the couple hours they play a day, you get an enormous advantage.
It is against the rules in most games for that very reason. If I ran an MMO I would just permaban people on their first UCM offense and be done with them. It has killed many games because it drives off a large portion of the player base when they start seeing it everywhere.
If you have to cheat to play a game, you are a pretty sad person.
Good to see some of Asheron's Call macroers went over to DF after being banned in AC.
The reason everyone hates AFK macroing (or UCM in AC terms Unattended Combat Macroing) is because it gives you a huge advantage over the people who actually play the game. If you get to have your character advancing/looting while you're off doing other things 24/7 and another player is only advancing their character during the couple hours they play a day, you get an enormous advantage.
It is against the rules in most games for that very reason. If I ran an MMO I would just permaban people on their first UCM offense and be done with them. It has killed many games because it drives off a large portion of the player base when they start seeing it everywhere.
If you have to cheat to play a game, you are a pretty sad person.
the companies can make some money permabanning macroers since they will sub again and macro, them ban sub macro...imagine this in B2p games
I was really enjoying the PvE for about 3 months, but after that time I started getting really bored of skilling up on mobs. The novelty of Darkfall's unique combat system began to wear off and I still was not vet-competitive PVP ready.
3 months is more than enough time for you to have developed your character to a competitive level, if you chose to focus your training on areas unrelated to combat (such as crafting, gathering, etc...) that was your choice and is no fault of the game or the game design.
My new reroll is barely 2 weeks into his progression and I just broke 310 hp. I'll be well over 350 by the end of my first month, with nearly all my stats at 45 or better, some into the 50s and 60s, rigor is cruising towards 75 and I'll have ignore pain very soon as well as GA mastery to work on, all the archery skills and a very solid start on magic. I can kill a player with a 5 month head-start on me with little to no issue at all, 1v1.
I work 8 hours a day like most average working stiffs, and am only able to play during off hours.
I do not macro and never have.
I played before the patch that somewhat fixed the HP differential between vets and noobs. At that point, 3 months was not enough to get my HP to a decent level at all. I did have GS mastery and sharp shooter, but I didn't have shit for magic. Also, my stats were nowhere close to those you are listing... if you got those in 2 weeks, I have no friggin' idea how you did it. Based on my experience in game, those stats are impossible in 2 weeks unless you literally spent 24 hours in game.
I was really enjoying the PvE for about 3 months, but after that time I started getting really bored of skilling up on mobs. The novelty of Darkfall's unique combat system began to wear off and I still was not vet-competitive PVP ready.
3 months is more than enough time for you to have developed your character to a competitive level, if you chose to focus your training on areas unrelated to combat (such as crafting, gathering, etc...) that was your choice and is no fault of the game or the game design.
My new reroll is barely 2 weeks into his progression and I just broke 310 hp. I'll be well over 350 by the end of my first month, with nearly all my stats at 45 or better, some into the 50s and 60s, rigor is cruising towards 75 and I'll have ignore pain very soon as well as GA mastery to work on, all the archery skills and a very solid start on magic. I can kill a player with a 5 month head-start on me with little to no issue at all, 1v1.
I work 8 hours a day like most average working stiffs, and am only able to play during off hours.
I do not macro and never have.
I had to put on boots to make it through all the BS that was in this post.
Read this post. It is the closest thing to a new player grind you will get.
Comments
I haven't once disagreed that it's cheating. I'm not trying to rationalize why people are cheating. I'm not trying to give merit to any of it whatsoever. What I'm trying to do is explain why anyone cares about it.
Darkfall has sold "100,000" copies. They hold a playerbase of around 3,000 active players across 2 servers. The relevant point is that the grind in DF has been so horrible as to make it one of the, if not THE, primary reasons for leaving the game. It's because of the grind that people have chosen to circumvent a portion of it through finding means to progress while not playing. Many of the players that I spoke with in-game and read about on forums would simply have quit sooner had macroing not been possible. That's not a rationalization nor is it trying to excuse anything. It's merely stating a fact about people I knew when I played. Those people openly and admittedly cheated. Those same people loved almost every aspect of the game except for the absurdly important stats and skills, and the incredible lengths it takes to increase them.
Honestly, you're getting offended as if I'm calling you out on something. My comment about taking off the blinders was made because of your hang-up on not seeing past the cheating part. You were also trying to essentially say that 'people are doing it wrong' yourself by repeating the way you approach games, and that anyone who would resort to such a thing should merely quit. I'm sorry, but the way you feel about someone's actions or why they make them has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they'll continue, or even whether or not they should. It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's why I no longer bother to argue about things like botting, RMT, or cheating in general. It's wrong, it's pointless, and it's stupid, but it's not going to stop just because I don't like it. My only option is to decide if it affects me enough within a given game to make me stop playing.
The bottom line is; you've been pretty myopic so far, choosing only to see the situation from your own perspective without any consideration for someone else's. I don't honestly care about the principle or morality of it - that's not what the thread is about. The OP asked a question, and I've answered it the best way I know how. The only point I've really seen you drive home is that "it's cheating". So essentially, you care because it's cheating, and it isn't right. I agree. There's plenty more to the story than that, though. I suppose if anything, I might've played devil's advocate a bit with you here, but mostly in an attempt to give you a different perspective. I apologize if I offended you somehow.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Not offended at all. I tend to get rather "passionate" when it comes to topics like cheating, hacking, RMT, etc.. so I might have come across more "aggressively" than intended. It's not so much aimed at you, so much as my incredulity of the situation.
In other words: It's nothing personal, and I mean no disrespect, so please don't take it that way.
That said...
I understand there's "more to the story" than the fact that people are cheating. I got that part. All I'm saying is, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.... because cheating is cheating is cheating.
I also acknowledge that many of the reasons people cite for "having to macro" are self-imposed and based entirely on their own expectations not being readily met... not any "fault" of the game itself.
What ever reason, or back-story or history might have led up to it, it - in my opinion - means squat. Because the reality is, people are going to cheat simply because they *want* to. If DF was in an entirely different position.... if it had a huge, thriving population, if the stats were reversed and it had a 97% retention rate with only 3% leaving due to the grind and other reasons... there would just be some other excuse given by the cheaters to justify it.
So, to go into the history of why they do it in DF is, ultimately, meaningless to me. I'm not being myopic... I see the bigger picture... I'm simply stating that it really doesn't matter at the end of the day.
It's cheating, it's playing outside the rules of the game, and it's lame... which is why I personally "care about afk macroing", or any other kind of cheating. I'm very aware of it, I see it happening all the time, in any MMO I play. Doesn't stop me from playing them, but it also doesn't stop me from thinking it's extremely lame, and expressing as much.
And... as I'm starting to remind myself of a broken record at this point... I'll leave it at that lol.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Its not the grind itself that is the reason why they have lost 97K subscribers. It's because many people have cheated to get a very developed character, that makes these people think they have to grind to get to the same level.
Its not much you have to level afk anymore in the this game. They have made some changes to ease it up abit. One of the things that many still feel they have to macro is self buffs for example. People afk swim to get some stats up such as quiqness.
The major difference between a vet and a month or two old character in for example a archery/melee fight would be the quiqness stat. You gain that stat way to slow by only playing the game, and the benefit from having it high is to big.
I have vet character myself, not overly impressive stats, and I started a second character and leveled up all the basic skills and masteries in a few weeks. And biggest difference between the characters were the quiqkness.
So I can totally understand players that feel they have to afk swim to increase that stat for example.
Another thing that people very often "afk" macro is a passive skill in greater magic named Greater Magic Mana Efficiency. When you get it to 75 you can buy a skill named Mana Conservation that some people feel the urge to have. I don't have it myself yet even tho I'm getting close. Need to macro probably 20 or 30 hours more to get it, and I try to do my macroing attended.
In my oppinion alot could have been solved with a cap on skills and a decay. They could even made some options so you could level some skills when not being online aswell then, like in EVE.
But to reply the OP. I care about it, because its cheating.
My main concern is that DF has a system that actually lets you AFK macro and increase skills. Why does the skill-gain system even allow that? It's great to live by your principles and all--personally I'd never AFK "play" any game. But a system that allows people to "cheat" instead of play the game normally to increase their skills means that some people will do so.
At the end of the day DF is a PvP-centric game where skill levels do make a difference. It shouldn't be possible to increase those skills by not actually playing the game.
All good man! I get the same way sometimes myself. Enjoyable discussion going back and forth with you either way
I guess that to me, it just seems important to know how things came to be the way they are. I mean, if Darkfall wanted AFK progression, they could've gone the way of EVE. Still, that's the way most folks looked at macroing. The whole thing, IMO, stems from an inherently flawed system in the first place that has yet to be remedied, hence the state they're in right now. Hopefully though, DF2010 and the rumored "re-launch" will give folks the chance for a fresh start, and Darkfall's devs the opportunity to really enforce the rules they set way back in March 2009 (which were never strictly adhered to). I've always been a little jealous of the folks who played from launch when things were all fresh, new, and equal, and I'd really love the opportunity to have that chance myself - especially if they crack down on the cheats.
Absolutely fantastic observation. To extend that a bit, I'd have to say that the power gained by those who've cheated to get their characters only serves to exacerbate the issue. That's a major part of why I'd love a fresh start and less intense grind. Skill decay wouldn't be terrible, either!
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
In my opinion, it's pretty sad when a person feels they need to play a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way.
There's something to be said for thinking for one's self and not feeling you "have to follow the pack".
Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there... people feeling they're supposed to play a certain way because that's how others are playing.... and so AV should change the game to suit them.
No wonder people burn out on MMOs so easily these days. They're so caught up in following someone else's trail through the games, instead of forming their own. Pretty sad, in my opinion.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Of course people are trying to follow each other... Thats because this is supposed to be an extremely competitive PvP-oriented MMO. People want to have a strong competitive character so they can take part in the best aspects the game has to offer and they want to get to that point as fast as possible. AFK macroing allows them to bypass some of the tedium and get their characters to that point more quickly. And since it is no secret that macroing is a huge part of this game, of course they are going to think that they need to macro if so many people did so before them...
I think the main problem with Darkfall is the fact that people need to do this in the first place. It is indicative of a design flaw when so many players resort to cheating just to experience the key selling-points of the game.
-shrug-
I've never agreed with that mindset, in any MMO.
And it's not just DF where I see that mindset... It's in every MMORPG. People go into a new MMO championing it as a chance to develop their own character... and then immediately bring up the current "best" template for their given class, following it point for point, spec for spec...
They claim they want a game that offers a lot of skills that they can choose from to suit their own playstyle... and then immediately start on the path to making themself a carbon copy of everyone else...
Then, in many cases, those same people come around some time later, ironically, complain about the game feeling "limited" and demand that the developers do something about it... meanwhile, they're off to some WIKI site to re-spec themself after the latest cookie-cutter template that someone else took the time to figure out.
It's just such a self-defeating behavior to me.
There's also this conceit a lot of players seem to have, where they assume that because it's how *they're* playing it, that it must be the "best way" or the "right way", or the "only way" to play it. It never occurs to them that thre may be - and very likely are - other options, approaches and builds they can explore... if they just pull themself out of their cookie-cutter mindset long enough to bother trying.
I just prefer to think for myself and play the game as I enjoy it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It really has nothing to do with playing "a game a certain way based on how others did before them, instead of taking it at their own pace, playing it their own way." It has more to do with - as I very clearly stated - beginning this PVP-based game fresh and on even footing with my fellow gamers. I can't even fathom how you somehow inferred that we were "getting at" anything else.
Seriously, screw the pack, or the "FOTM" build. I'll pick my skills and find my own style of playing that I find to be the most fun. The ability to do so alongside other players who have no advantage over me due to exploits, bugs, macros or AFK skill-ups is what I crave. How you so easily misconstrued what I said there is beyond me. I've already covered how flawed I think some of the game's systems are at their core, and a big part of that is the fact that in Darkfall, at a point, there becomes a single most effective build that most people will get shoehorned into.
And really, if you don't realize that people want the game to change for the greater good of the game itself and not the selfish desires of a few, then I'm not sure what's left to be discussed. Darkfall has already taken the route of "keep the selfish vets happy" and we see where that's landed them. They now have major changes planned, and I for one can't wait to see them and how they affect the game, and hope that it will only be in a positive manner. Honestly, the only reason I still watch this forum from time to time is because of how much I really did like the actual game world and combat mechanics. I just hated the community the game had bred when I joined, and the very mentality being discussed in this thread. The only way to change the entire state of the game would be with a thorough re-vamp and the launch of fresh servers to allow for new and different types of players to once again have the chance to shape the world from the ground up.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Fair enough. Still, within the context of the thread so far I'm sure you can understand how I could take it the way I did. After all, you made it personal when you said "Which is precisely what it seems you two are getting at there...". It certainly seemed more directed at Darkfall as well, given that it has been the focus of the discussion to that point, and even moreso when you added, "and so AV should change the game to suit them."
Actually, this is why I've stressed the need to understand the history of the game to this point. When I say equal footing, I only mean to a degree, of course. The major issue I have with the established population is how much of what they have has been gained through cheats, exploits, etc.. There's no such thing as even footing with any of those players, and it's largely irrelevant to me in a large-scale PVP-oriented game (particularly one that's FFA and where wealth in skills and resources reigns supreme) if I'm on equal ground with the players who are legitimately playing the game. Clearly, if I begin playing one month after someone else who has an equivalent amount of available playtime as myself, I'll consistantly be one month behind them until a cap has been reached. Also, players who've played the game far longer will be in a more advantageous position. However, this is why I strongly advocate a reduction of the grind, decay for skills and/or stats, and possibly a curve that takes away the massive benefit of time being greater than ability. They already took a step in that direction by making HP gains faster at lower vitality and strength, then slower the higher you get. I'd like to see more of that.
Absolutely not. However, when the trend thus far has been that the greater majority have macroed or gained skills while AFK, I would certainly approach the game with more of a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. Not that I really need proof or even want it, just that when you understand how widespread the issue is, or at least has been, it's a bit easier to be cynical I suppose (and I really hate to hold a cynical view).
That'd be largely irrelevant. A person beats my ass, they beat my ass! Hopefully I learn something from the encounter and get better in the future. That, or I eventually come to realize (like some/most) that the gap is so massive from new-ish player to 'veteran' that I'll never spend the time or maintain the patience to continually enjoy taking such beatdowns with regularity that I'll move on and check back in on the game from time to time.
Oh man, I'm so relieved to see you say this. Now you get it. Now you understand why this OP made the topic, and why I've said the things I have. This is the crux of the entire issue. That one point is exactly why many quit, many cheat, and many hate the grind. What you possibly haven't seen yet is the decisive advantage gained by vastly superior skills and stats, and possibly even gear. Given how much of my experience is out of date, it's hard for me to speak on this part of the current state of the game. However, the case when I played was one where a 1-month character might as well have been a level 30 in greens vs. a level 80 in epics in WoW. The major difference being, of course, the obscene amount of time it'd take to be competitive at that level, and clearly that it's not terribly often that you're getting ramrodded by 80's at level 30 in WoW (dodge Stranglethorn ffs).
Pretty much summed it up in point 3, as well as my previous arguments on that point. The gap in Darkfall with time is quite vast. Much more so (IMO) than most games I've ever played. It's really a moot point to try and make comparisons.
This is why I strongly advocate (like plenty others) a complete overhaul of the skill and stat system. Well, maybe not a complete overhaul, but at least some major adjustments that would allow for progression while keeping the playing field more level. Honestly, no matter how you approach the game or choose to play it, there's no denying the intention and focus of the game as a PVP-based MMORPG. The incredible PVE-based grind and massive gap created by stats and skills should never have been such an issue (more IMO disclaimerness).
Given the possibility of point #5, this would be less of a problem. The time and gap between new and old player would be much more tolerable. Where other players are was only my concern when a pack of 20-30 raiders could jump over the walls of my last clan's city, soak up tower damage, other forms of player-based ranged damage, and also take folks down in melee in multiples at a time, essentially gaining free-reign at a point vs. superior numbers (at least double). Granted, that clan wasn't exactly the most skilled or progressed that I'd seen, and that only took place once, but the glaring difference in balance when fighting those types of raiders was quite the turnoff. I really enjoyed dueling other, more advanced characters. The trouble set in when realizing just how much time and effort of doing the same repetative actions with little to no satisfaction in PVP (and the constant threat of being ganked and losing all your shit to a player you couldn't possibly compete against) it would really take to get to the happy place where the greater fun and features of the game would really set in. That's why it's easy to get "caught up" in where other players are, and why it makes it so much more bitter when you know - in some cases - that they cheated to get there. It's even worse when you sincerely love the game, its potential, and the fun you were having up til that point.
I could agree with your first sentence, if not for the next. Hopefully the numbered points above lend those statements some clarity.
As for the bit on FFXI, I couldn't possibly agree with you more with regards to a PVE-based game. I don't give a crap who did what and how in FFXI. It didn't bother me one iota when I joined the game what kind of an advantage the JP playeres had vs. NA. In fact, any PVE-based game I've ever joined (most recently, EQ2) I never, ever worried about rushing in my chase of the carrot that everyone else was feverishly racing towards, and I only played that game last year - 5 years into its release! The people in those games who think there's some merit to dodging the entire journey just to blast their way into the super-happy-fun-time-end-game are absurd. That, or they mustn't like the game that much in the first place to want to skip so much of it. Regardless, I'm with you in just how pointless that is.
And yup, that's exactly how I approached the game in my time. I joined and helped to build the IRON linkshell on Bismarck which became one of the top NA linkshells in pretty short time. Understand; I have zero interest in "world firsts" or any of that garbage. They're meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I did take pride, however, in accomplishing certain things that hadn't been done by other NA linkshells yet due to our superior organization and quality players. I would've felt that way regardless, though, because of how well our group worked together on the whole.
That's only true to a certain extent, and the game in question is only incidental if the games in question are of a very similar nature. Darkfall and FFXI are polar opposites, and illustrate that point quite well.
Really, dwelling on others' progress in a game is only relevant within the confines of certain types of games. Darkfall is that type of game, and hopefully you're all the clearer as to why I feel that way now. Unfortunately, the devs - in this case - do have the power to choose how emphasized that can and will be. Surely, some players can completely ignore and avoid the type of pressure one might feel when they get regularly wasted in PVP battles. Most, on the other hand, cannot. I won't reference the incredible attrition rate of subscribers in Darkfall here (whoops! lol).
Honestly, Mike, I hope none of this back and forth has offended you. I'd hope you would recognize respect when you see it, what with my constant struggle to manipulate this site's damned quoting system to format properly, nevermind the time taken to respond to you with well-thought replies. Also, I'm not trying to be overly didactic here, but as I've said earlier in the thread; I think some of your points come from a lack of experience with this game just yet. That, or things are simply that much different than when I played. Either way, interesting stuff to discuss. I'm havin fun, and at least it's more entertaining than discussing FFXIV, hah.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Just want to say it's refreshing to see an intelligent discussion between two people that doesn't revert into a fanboy/hater mudslinging contest. Especially in the DF forums.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I would agree Nizar, it is refreshing that there is civil discourse. I would like to say I played for about 10 months, not long after release. As an example, we had a guy in our alliance that macro'd all his fire magic into the 90's. He was a shit player. He was well known to our enemies though. Whenever he would help in a hunt or anytime in pvp, peeps either ran away or went for him straight away. He wasn't very good, and people knew it but he could nuke you and your team to death.
We(my clan) always laughed at him because he wasn't very good, but was macro'd up. He was an interesting problem. Acid pool glitching, afk swimming, running, macroing heal self/other, blah blah, blah was all very prevalent. I personally hated bloodwalls, but it was damn near mandatory because the other large clans were doing it.
All of this changed when they made the xp gains from PVE much, much more than PvP. This got everyone out of the player cities and out into the world. To think that afk macro'ing didn't change the game, is short sighted. However, at this point, what has happened, has happened.
If you want to play DF, you should. Joining a clan after a few days, joining voice comms, keeping your mouth shut and assisting will get you a long way. Like EvE, territory means something.
The best part about AFK macroers was they were regent pinata's though. We would go to player cities at odd times on the NA server looking for afkers. Occasionally we were lucky and literally would get thousands of regs from several of them.
P.S. Pyramid quoting on top of pyramid quoting makes me want to stomp on kittens.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Well, I guess where we agree to disagree is where it comes to it being different in a PvP game versus a PvE game.
It may be that my enjoyment of the game doesn't ride as much on PvP alone as it does for you, and so it's not as important to me. PvP in Darkfall is an ever-present possibility, no matter what I'm doing. It's not my main focus. That's me.
But then, even with PvP... I see a lot of people complaining that you can't PvP against Vets soon enough and so there's no PvP in the game. That is simply and completely wrong. I encountered plenty of PvP in my 2 week trial period alone, without even looking for it, and most of it was against players of the same relative skill level as me. Only one or two completely destroyed me. The others were pretty good fights. But that's another topic altogether.
To me, a game is a game is a game. Whether it's fighting mobs, other players, or a combination of both... it's a game at the end of the day. If others can only enjoy a game by cheating their way to the end-game, well... I covered my opinion of that some time back with the example of my brother and his girlfriend using a walkthrough guide to beat The Longest Journey and then bragging how they beat it in 2 days.
I fully expect to get my ass handed to me in a PvP MMO, and pondering whether those doing so did it by macroing or cheating their way ultimately means nothing to me. It's not even worth worrying about.
There does seem to be a degree of concern over how others are playing (whether they macroed or not, etc) throughout your post and I guess that's what I can't relate to, at least not in that context.
I was dealing with players who hacked/botted/RMT'd their way into the higher levels and the best gear in Lineage 2 all the time. They dominated the "Olympiad" and pretty much controlled who had Hero status for a given month (think characters on steroids) and used that to dominate castle sieges and other PvP. Some of the more "obnoxious" clans would show up to a siege they had no personal interest in just to screw with people and decide who got the castle or not. Talk about abuse of power.
If one of those clans decided they wanted your castle, not even because they needed it... just because they were bored on a Saturday and it happened to be the sign-up period for sieges... you may as well leave the door open, the beds made and the red carpet rolled out... because if they decided to sign up for a castle your clan owned, they were very likely getting it. That is unless you got some serious firepower to help you out. One or two alliances routinely dominated the server at any given time, and they were all pretty much comprised of entirely of botted/RMT'd characters. We still PvP'd, win or lose, we had fun... and we did our thing.
We also knew that at some point, they'd get sloppy. Another weakness of powerful alliances is that they take their "absolute power" for granted and don't think anyone would *seriously* try to take them on. So, on some weekend, when their egos almost inevitably results in spreading themselves too thin, or not making a strong enough showing for a castle they own... they end up losing it. And *oh boy* does the rage fly.
War declarations pop up left and right from them, every clan in their alliance and even some of the clans outside their alliance friendly to them. They're such sore losers that taking a castle away from them sends them into an indignant rage. It's like, "WHAT?! They took *our* castle?! We are the most powerful alliance on the server!! We've poured hundreds of hours into botting our characters!! Hundreds of dollars into buying adena to get the best gear!!! We own this server!!!". Then they start e-raging in a global chat channel... talking smack to cover up their humility over losing their castle to a "no-name" clan. It's a wonderful sight to behold. As I've said before, it's a lot of fun to turn people's egos against them.
It wasn't only about winning the siege, or winning in PvP, it was about enjoying the activity itself as well. I sense there's a lack of that from some people in DF (as I do, incidentally, in other MMOs as well). They do what they do only for the rewards, not for the enjoyment of the activity itself. Another thing that seems to be commonplace, but that I can't relate to. Not that I'm better or worse for it... just different.
The situation was very similar, overall, to what goes on in DF by my understanding. The victory, and all its spoils, almost certainly goes to the cheaters.
Did that stop me from playing the rest of the game, getting into PvP encounters myself - win or lose - and enjoying myself? Not in the slightest. I played and enjoyed Lineage 2 for over 3 years. I had a great group of friends I made in that game - some of which spilled over into real life friendships over time, and we had a great time. We PvP'd, we PvE'd, we goofed around, etc.. We'd see members of the top clans/alliances botting in some area and have a laugh at how lame it was.. then continue on our way.
I understand many others don't share that sentiment and find it to be a very big problem that others are so much more powerful... but again, I'm looking at it in the context that at any given point in the game, there's *always* going to be players who can beat my ass. It's part of the game. So what's the point of worrying about it? Why mire my own experience down with concerns of what others are doing, or whether or not they got their skills legitimately. It makes absolutely zero difference at the end of the day. I'm playing the game for my own enjoyment, on my own terms. That's my point-of-view.
Though, again, I realize mine seems to be an unpopular one in Agon.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
if people want to pay money to have a macro running on their pc then i would say let them.......its their money.
Personaly i enjoy the actual playing part of a game.....silly me.
Well, I don't think cheating should be allowed in a game at all... and I love when I hear stories of people who were known for botting/hacking/RMT'ing getting banned. Because all that time thinking they were "the shit" because they botted their way into high levels and RMT'd their way into the top gear came to naught in the end.
And it's the icing on the cake when they go into the forums and rage about it... as though some injustice had been done to them because "they paid their sub fee!!". That's always a good laugh, seeing someone who used to swagger around in-game like they were some untouchable king of the server being reduced to a whiney baby because their toys were taken away.
So, if there's any purpose cheaters serve in a MMO at all, it's the entertainment value they bring when they're eventually nailed for it... assuming they are. Some developers are woefully slow in dealing with it.
It's even better when those same people come back with a new account later... and do it again.
That said... I agree... what's the point of playing a game that you're spending so much time not actually playing? This is why my friends and myself would laugh at people we knew were botters in game, because of the incredible egos they had, how they'd run around calling others 'n00bs' and saying "lrn2ply"... meanwhile, at least half their character's development, typically more, was done in some RMT bot train while they were afk.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
One problem will never be solved. The human race cheats in any way they can whenever they can at whatever they can. It boils down to choice and most choose to cheat. That being said another flaw is humans all want to feel superior. This is what drives the cheating. Business do it, governments do it, the list is endless. Sadly it even goes all the way down to our recreation.
One of the main reasons players macro in Darkfall is due to magic being out of balance. If AV ever gets this in balance the macroing (at least for magic) will drop to a very low level.
Even with the cheaters and the magic balance issue and the fact I suck at pvp I still enjoy the game for what it is.
Darkfall is a game you live in it's not a game you play.
The next time your sitting in traffic going to work or buying something from a store or making a deposit at your bank remeber the person who is next to you or staring you in the eyes while saying "thank you" is a cheater and a hack in real life. Always thinking of ways to "cut corners" to make a bigger profit or get that new cool cell phone or whatever object is dangling in their mind to drive them to cheat.
Cheating is a way of human life that is not an unusual event in Darkfall alone. Cheating is a flaw in ones moral system.
I think another big part of it is that the game starts to feel very repetitive and boring after a while to many of us. I was really enjoying the PvE for about 3 months, but after that time I started getting really bored of skilling up on mobs. The novelty of Darkfall's unique combat system began to wear off and I still was not vet-competitive PVP ready. So I was left with the same choice as so many are in this game... do I attempt to bypass the activities I find tedious and macro and exploit every loophole in the game or do I quit out of boredom? Simply playing is no longer an option once the activities involved become so mindlessly repetitive that going to work sounds more entertaining... Still, a lot of us TRY to hold out despite the fact we are no longer having fun just so we can reach that end game PvP that we have all heard is so epic. Macros become the only way that many of us can reach that goal without going insane.
Some people manage to hold out... others like me end up quitting rather than suffering through it. Its a shame because the game did not feel this way to begin with. It just required SO MUCH time that I couldn't keep interested in the same activities over and over. It would probably be different if there were more things to do and more variety around the world, but there really isn't. The game is utterly lacking in this regard and content is very few and far between. I am envious of those of you who remain entertained doing the same things over and over again. You have (or will) likely reach the point in the game that I wanted to experience. Unfortunately it seems clear that the vast majority does not have the patience to ever reach that point... which is clearly reflected in Darkfall's population.
3 months is more than enough time for you to have developed your character to a competitive level, if you chose to focus your training on areas unrelated to combat (such as crafting, gathering, etc...) that was your choice and is no fault of the game or the game design.
My new reroll is barely 2 weeks into his progression and I just broke 310 hp. I'll be well over 350 by the end of my first month, with nearly all my stats at 45 or better, some into the 50s and 60s, rigor is cruising towards 75 and I'll have ignore pain very soon as well as GA mastery to work on, all the archery skills and a very solid start on magic. I can kill a player with a 5 month head-start on me with little to no issue at all, 1v1.
I work 8 hours a day like most average working stiffs, and am only able to play during off hours.
I do not macro and never have.
Another way of putting it is that the human race seeks the quickest route to a particular goal, and so long as(in this context) it's macro'ing, that will never change.
And yeah, if I were playing Darkfall, a PvP-centric game, I'd care.
I'd bet it's precisely why Eve went with a time-based advancement system with dimishing returns and an upper limit to individual skills.
The answer is pretty simple:
If you play a game, any kind of games, there are rules.
The fundamental rule is that you should folllow the other rules, of course.
If you don't, whether it can be noticed or not, you break the major rule.
Basically, you are like a knight who wowed to defend the weak and kill them thereafter.
Edit: just in case the metaphor is not clear, doing things just like you are in-game when you are not is not the way MMOs are built in the first place.
Good to see some of Asheron's Call macroers went over to DF after being banned in AC.
The reason everyone hates AFK macroing (or UCM in AC terms Unattended Combat Macroing) is because it gives you a huge advantage over the people who actually play the game. If you get to have your character advancing/looting while you're off doing other things 24/7 and another player is only advancing their character during the couple hours they play a day, you get an enormous advantage.
It is against the rules in most games for that very reason. If I ran an MMO I would just permaban people on their first UCM offense and be done with them. It has killed many games because it drives off a large portion of the player base when they start seeing it everywhere.
If you have to cheat to play a game, you are a pretty sad person.
the companies can make some money permabanning macroers since they will sub again and macro, them ban sub macro...imagine this in B2p games
I played before the patch that somewhat fixed the HP differential between vets and noobs. At that point, 3 months was not enough to get my HP to a decent level at all. I did have GS mastery and sharp shooter, but I didn't have shit for magic. Also, my stats were nowhere close to those you are listing... if you got those in 2 weeks, I have no friggin' idea how you did it. Based on my experience in game, those stats are impossible in 2 weeks unless you literally spent 24 hours in game.
I had to put on boots to make it through all the BS that was in this post.
Read this post. It is the closest thing to a new player grind you will get.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=264212