I think its good have some kind of penalty on deaths, just don't like much have death penaltys too punitives, like lose everything you have or lose your best equiped item, i'm ok with xp, money and full bag loss just not what I use XD
and for the drunk part, why the hell I would anyone other then me log on my account? or matter tell anyone my login and pass? not gonna happen with me, i had show games to my friends but I normally log in and play the game a little for then see waht is the deal never let then even touch on my chars XD
and yes even when I like to do almost everything alone, i'm not stupid if a quest is too hard to do alone I try to make a quick random group for that quest, other people will be there for it too, playing mmos and saying you never will party with anyone just make you have less fun, want to play alone? go play a single player
Funny. i hate people and i play mmorpgs. I hate dying because i cant level up (while im earning extra influence and power upgrades.) Why do i play these games? You are lost. These are not your games.
Yeah, I get pretty confused as to the motivations of gamers like Adam, myself. Generally, that type of mentality finds itself making its way into PVP-based games where they can have an affect on other people (ie., everyone) they don't like. To really generalize and make assumptions, they usually get their kicks by griefing others. It's ironic then, that such a player would be so heavily opposed to death penalties, given that they intend to impose penalties onto those they dislike themselves.
Of course, the above could be completely untrue, but then the OP truly has little to no business even bothering with MMOs in the first place except to enjoy what they're criticising - timesinks. In this particular case, they're holding a grudge against a particular one because they feel it directly cuts into their gratification and rewards and since they don't enjoy or understand its use (due in large part to their anti-social mentality), they insult it and those who like it (e.g. calling death penalties masochistic).
Originally posted by BMoor
The death penalty was a major factor in why I quit playing a MMO that I had been playing everyday for a year. By itself, the death penalty for that game wasn't too bad (worth a few hours grind) but combined with technical difficulties (disconnects that leaves the character idle to be killed) and bad dungeon parties (a cleric can only do so much), it was the last straw for me in that game.
I understand that you're trying to keep that game's identity concealed to avoid criticism based on other opinions of its penalties, but you're still giving up due to something you call "[not] too bad". The factor of disconnects (depending on the game) could very likely have little to do with the game itself and instead a poor user connection. The other issue of poor teammates highlights one of the more notable benefits of death penalties - incentive to succeed. Bad players will be punished, and those who seek to be successful should make an effort to find and play with others who meet their skill levels. May sound shallow, but I've often found that doing so generally lands me with like-minded people who I consequently get along better with.
Originally posted by Senadina
While your arguments have validity, I can't help but feel, on a visceral level, that a death penalty makes you care more about the task at hand. My first MMO was Everquest, and I learned to fear death. Nobody wanted to have to find and loot their corpse, or lose experience. It made for better players, more cooperation, more maturity, and fewer asshats. EQ was the only MMO I felt comfortable grouping in because I knew people were going to play the game with some semblence of accountability.
Bingo. This is the #1 reason that a significant death penalty is awesome. When you can run into a task all gung-ho without care or concern for the outcome, what's lost is any sense of caution or concern. The bits about EQ aside (sorry, but communities in those days were better due to who was playing, not just a DP), death penalties really do force players to take care with their actions. You really can't care about something without consequence, but when it's added, it heightens the entire experience whether it's "just a game" or not.
As a side note; you, sir, have a friend that is an imbecile for not setting boundaries for others not to mess with his possessions! Placing blame on the game and its penalty is just indicitave of a person with an attitude that shirks responsibility for their own mistakes. After all, he could've simply logged off.
In all, I'm a bit confused as to why someone who doesn't seem to like MMOs is writing an article for a site dedicated to them.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Your character dying means you failed. If failing doesn't mean anything, then it devalues what it means to win.
The appropriate harshness of a death penalty does vary per what the game is trying to aim for. For casual gamers, a lower death penality may be more convenient, however for a normal or hardcore player, it will leave more to be desired.
Saying that it adds challenge is a complete prune juice. Death Penalty adds frustration, not challenge.
I don't think it adds challenge but it does add consequence.
If you do something and you "win" then you are rewarded. If you don't win then there should be some sort of "losing" scenario. If you are going to get rewarded then there should also be a consequence for failure. Otherwise it's jsut rewards and that feels a bit unbalanced.
It's true that RPG's don't really have a death penalty. But that is because "you die".
Your character falls to the ground and essentially "game over'. You then have the choice to load up your last save or go outside and enjoy the day.
There is essentially and end.
Since there is no such thing in an mmo there are death penalties of some sort or another.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My suggestion; If you don't like Death Penalties then go play Farmville. Death penalties bring realize and IMMERSION to an MMO. Else when you want to go back to town you simply die as a very basic example of a death penalty not being any penalty at all.
I soloed most of EQ back in the day with my Shaman. Death in EQ was NOT anything you wanted. Specially in the middle of a bunch of mobs. You actually FEARED dieing. Something that pretty much every MMO on the market today does not give you. In EQ not only did you lose EXP and possibly even a level but you also had to go back and get your corpse. So dieing to get a quick warp back to town was NOT an option.
I don't get this generation of players. You guys (including the Gueat Author) has no damn clue what Immersion is. You simply want everything for nothing and don't even understand the term Risk vs Reward.
Again, go play Farmville. That's more your speed I think.
I can't recall any RPG games with death penalty that can explain why MMORPG has one. Other than the obvious reasons to delay progress to milk every prescious time off of player for more money, nothing else explains it at all.
That is because most RPG games are over when you die, you save often to avoid that.
The original D&D and AD&D made you lose a constitution point every time you died, that is probably the first death penalty that also have been used in many computer RPGs since, like SSIs games (Champions of Krynn and Pool of radiance to mention 2 of them).
It is bad to die in pen and paper RPGs and it is bad to die in single player RPGs. Often it is even game over.
Death penalties are there to discourage reckless abandon and to attempt to ensure some minimum of skill at certain levels of progression.
The death penalty affects the casual player no worse than anyone else. If anything, it affects them less than it would affect a hardcore raider.
The group it does affect are those individuals who feel they are entitled to everything simply because they paid their $15. It does not matter if they have taken time to learn how to play, they want it, they want it now, and there better not be any penalties associated with failure. Heck, most of the time, they want even the possibility of failure removed.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Death penalties are there to discourage reckless abandon and to attempt to ensure some minimum of skill at certain levels of progression.
The death penalty affects the casual player no worse than anyone else. If anything, it affects them less than it would affect a hardcore raider.
The group it does affect are those individuals who feel they are entitled to everything simply because they paid their $15. It does not matter if they have taken time to learn how to play, they want it, they want it now, and there better not be any penalties associated with failure. Heck, most of the time, they want even the possibility of failure removed.
This is what WOW has turned into. A game built for players that want it all now with as little penalties for failure they can get.
I can't recall any RPG games with death penalty that can explain why MMORPG has one. Other than the obvious reasons to delay progress to milk every prescious time off of player for more money, nothing else explains it at all.
In GW1, for example, how challenging is it if you can't beat a group of mob at 100% health/energy, that makes you think you can beat them with -15%, -30%, -60% DP? Might aswell restart the mission or re-zone and start over again. Where's the fun in that?
It's only started to become fun when GW1 introduced cosumables, but the fact that you can eliminate DP with a consumable makes it even unnecessary.
The death penalty in WoW is so negligible that it's completely unnecessary since you can fix armor and gain rested EXP. DP in WoW is simply to delay progress and to milk more time/money.
EXP penalty in Aion, FF, and CoX makes no sense, DP is unnecessary.
Saying that it adds challenge is a complete prune juice. Death Penalty adds frustration, not challenge.
The first "roleplaying game" I played was pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons and at that time in combat if you reached zero hit points you were incapacitated which was bad but not the kicker, from there you went -1 through -10 and if you got to minus ten you were dead and needed to be ressurected which was not cheap and even worse you permanently lost a constitution point for your character so they havein fact existed since the inception of role playing games.
I think you have a point in that developers have no reason to not cling to death penalties because they are often a means to use resources in game as well as an extra time sink.
I'm not sure if you've ever played Star Trek Online, but at release there was zero death penalty in that game (as it is now I beleive the penalty is not mandatory still) and it is a good example of why you really do need a death penalty, often times I found myself with little to no concern when faced with a situation that may have required a bit of strategic thinking or a wiser strategy. Often it was as easy if not easier to just plow ahead, get blown up rinse and repeat until the ship you faced was finally defeated.
That's why I think death penalties as they tend to exist now are a good thing, item decay and a bit of lost hope/res sickness works fairly because it usually doesn't dictate that you take a half an hour to walk back for things or that you really need to wait unless you plan on taking on a bit more challenging mob.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
What a load of BS. It is exactly this kind of attitude that have games like STO created where dying means absolutely nothing.
Dying is supposed to suck, it makes the combat more exciting and gives an adrenaline rush when doing something dificult. Remove that and everything just becomes boring.
What a load of BS. It is exactly this kind of attitude that have games like STO created where dying means absolutely nothing.
Dying is supposed to suck, it makes the combat more exciting and gives an adrenaline rush when doing something dificult. Remove that and everything just becomes boring.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
I believe in death penalties but your explanation falls flat on me.
Adrenaline rush? I don't care about adrenaline rushes. Seriously. I don't want an adrenaline rush as it's not valued. I'm not sure I'm wired that way. So having said that, there are a lot of players who also aren't into the whole adrenaline rush thing.
That very well might work for you but I don't think that is going to be a selling point for some.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
First off I have no idea why WoW is so popular. I tried in when it came out and quit before my first month was done. A couple of years later my friend begs me to play it again cause he plays it. Since I have a month before classes start again I give it another shot. In 3 weeks I have soloed to level 62 and I am bored out of my head. I quit my subscription again. I just don't get why so many people play it.
As for death penalties, I am for exp loss. While some people can't stand them, I still remember the day I made level 17 in Everquest 6 times in one day (damn gators). It never made me want to quit the game, and I felt good once I was able to get past that. I was one of those so called masochists who managed to get a Paladin to level 42 by soloing 95% of the time, even when people told me I couldn't solo a Paladin after level 20. I felt an accomplishment with that character that I haven't felt since.
I understand that many people don't like the death penalties, and I do like your idea of being able to set your penalties how you want them. Unfortunately I don't think any game will do that.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
I have to agree with the premise of the article. While I think there are both pros and cons to severe death penalties, in the end they simply take fun away from the game. To me, dying in and of itself is a penalty, who wants to eff up right? I'm not saying do away with DP all together, just don't make it feel insurmountable to the player or extremely annoying.
As an Old time PnP DnD'er (played since '77). Death penalties are a must.
It's all risk vs reward.
If you are risking nothing, your reward means nothing. Having no death penalty is like today's teenagers ( I have two of them) that use cheat codes in single player games. If you don't understand why cheat codes are called cheat codes, then you probably don't understand why beating a game using cheat codes means you didn't really win.
Having said all of that, I hated the way a death in EQ could cause you to unlevel. Death should cause an xp penalty on future xp, until the Penalty is paid. I would take half of future xp and use that to pay off the penalty.
Personally I think the death penalty always gets factored in the game design. In Shadowbane, anyone could loot your body should you die, but most of us were extra careful not to be running around with our bags full. Guilds would even build banks next to most grinding spots to minimize risk for their members. But that was part of the game.
I cannot really imagine WoW or Aion with a full loot death penalty. Your bank is always full and you need to be carrying around 1 or 2 sets of gear to play properly.
In WoW, it used to suck to die in a dungeon. There wasnt as many graveyards close to each dungeon entrance. Even today, if your party wipes in Maraudon you are better off disbanding most of the time, as most players are going to get lost during their corpse run. I've had group where reforming took over 30 minutes... A wipe in any Blackrock instance is also a pain.
Even then, I don't really see WoW being a zerg game when it comes down to PvP. In fact, Shadowbane was much more of a zerg game than WoW ever was... :P
I don't see anything wrong with a death penalty, it makes you stop for a moment and think about the situation. However, I don't think Death Penalties should be super harsh.
I play WoW and EVE, and the deaths in both games embarrass me. However, I prefer wows DP more. People say, having a harsh dp makes the game more challenging, not really, having a harsh dp makes you less willing to engage in challenges, while I think Wows dp could be more harsh, dying alone pisses me off enough. I can see why other people need a harsh penalty for deaths, but I'm a very competitive person and the simple act or thought of losing makes me stop and think.
In reality different games should have different dp. If wow and eve's dp were switched up, it wouldn't fit either game.
having a harsh dp makes you less willing to engage in challenges.
I disagree. That doesn't happen to me. I don't place much importance in game possessions, so I'm always willing to risk them for the thrill.
When a game doesn't offer me substantial risk, it just feels dull.
I think it all boils down to how much value game possessions have to you.
Once upon a time I think that was much more relevant than it is now since most games you don't actually have a chance to lose possessions anymore other than say Darkfall (which you have the chance of losing everything all the time) or EVE which if I'm not mistaken can be avoided by insuring your items.
Otherwise many of todays games will allow items to be degraded to zero yet still repaired so the fear of actually losing items is really not as big a factor as it once was, for those same reasons I doubt that death penalties are influencing peoples decision on whether or not to engage in certain content either.
As far as the value of in game items goes I think it is really dependant upon what kind of items we are talking about, if it's some carrot on the stick I worked months to gain I would certainly pause before frivelously running into encounters that could make all that work moot but I think you are right in that if there is no risk there is no true reward.
STO is the example I have to keep going back to because I honestly haven't played any other mmo that didn't have some kind of death penalty and I have to admit there were a few times that I just plowed ahead through the map getting blown up over and over again but that had as much to do with the fact that the quests aren't very interesting and it was much more of a "hamster on a wheel" experience for me.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I like penalties for death, it makes you more alert, become better at the game faster, keeps you on your toes.
If that were true, MMO gamers would be MUCH better than they actually are. On contrary I do not believe beating makes better kids, and penalities don't make better people. Only intelligence and training do.
So I agree with the OP. They make no sense at all. Save making us play longer and pay longer beyond reason.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I do not mind death penantlies, but there some things that dome with certian ones do bother me.
I do not believe in down-leveling, but lost of experience is fine.
I do not mind droping items, as long as it not exteremly hard to replace.
I do not mind durability lost or items destorying if not repaired, but I do not like item durability degrading for example original item durability was 100, after a few repairs it has become 85 when fully repaired.
There is a fine balance, if it is to harsh then it becomes frustrating, if its too easy it degrades the overall experience of the game. This of course is my opinion.
If done right then the game gets the right amount of challenge with out being stressful. If a game becomes stressfull it no longer fun. The very very very core no matter what type of gamer you are. Your playing that game for fun and in my opinion if you are not well I think your doing something wrong.
The problem with no death penalty is developers don't really need to tune content. If it kills you...so what? Just rez and try again. It takes some of the immersion factor out since there is no consequence. Strategy isn't necessary - just go die and see what happens.
I'd really like to see a top level MMO try permadeath or at least limited number of deaths per day. Players would be forced to play up to the level of their intelligence if their level 80 was only a death away from being wiped.
Making the price for death too high will discourage the casual gamer or in my case, the gamer who just wants to solo a lot because even in a pretend world he still doesn’t like people.
[Mod Edit]
MMORPGs are about the social part and teamwork. Death penalties spices the gameplay up a bit... i LOVE harsh penalties because like others have said before me, it keeps you alert and encourages teamwork.
Tibia is a perfect example of good death penalties as you delevel and you actually get a adrenaline kick during pvp. ; )
I like penalties for death, it makes you more alert, become better at the game faster, keeps you on your toes.
you obviously never played Eve Online. have you ever seen a grown man pulling his hair out because he had lost a ship that is worth hundreds of dollars in real-life money and his character's implants that are worth the same?
Love the article. I hate how death penalties are implemented. I would love for a game to implement a death penalty that didn't take away what you already had going into an encounter but rather took everything you earned from a certain point up to your death. All loot and coin in open world pve would have a timer before you could trade it. And if you died before the timer ran out you would lose everything that still had a timer or everything gained in a specific instance. Having to not only restart an instance from the very beginning but also losing every single thing gained since the start of it? That would definitely add some tension to the game. Another cool implementation of DP might be where in an instance, for every player death, the remaining monsters might spawn 5 levels higher than normal or many more will spawn at the original level.
Comments
I think its good have some kind of penalty on deaths, just don't like much have death penaltys too punitives, like lose everything you have or lose your best equiped item, i'm ok with xp, money and full bag loss just not what I use XD
and for the drunk part, why the hell I would anyone other then me log on my account? or matter tell anyone my login and pass? not gonna happen with me, i had show games to my friends but I normally log in and play the game a little for then see waht is the deal never let then even touch on my chars XD
and yes even when I like to do almost everything alone, i'm not stupid if a quest is too hard to do alone I try to make a quick random group for that quest, other people will be there for it too, playing mmos and saying you never will party with anyone just make you have less fun, want to play alone? go play a single player
Yeah, I get pretty confused as to the motivations of gamers like Adam, myself. Generally, that type of mentality finds itself making its way into PVP-based games where they can have an affect on other people (ie., everyone) they don't like. To really generalize and make assumptions, they usually get their kicks by griefing others. It's ironic then, that such a player would be so heavily opposed to death penalties, given that they intend to impose penalties onto those they dislike themselves.
Of course, the above could be completely untrue, but then the OP truly has little to no business even bothering with MMOs in the first place except to enjoy what they're criticising - timesinks. In this particular case, they're holding a grudge against a particular one because they feel it directly cuts into their gratification and rewards and since they don't enjoy or understand its use (due in large part to their anti-social mentality), they insult it and those who like it (e.g. calling death penalties masochistic).
I understand that you're trying to keep that game's identity concealed to avoid criticism based on other opinions of its penalties, but you're still giving up due to something you call "[not] too bad". The factor of disconnects (depending on the game) could very likely have little to do with the game itself and instead a poor user connection. The other issue of poor teammates highlights one of the more notable benefits of death penalties - incentive to succeed. Bad players will be punished, and those who seek to be successful should make an effort to find and play with others who meet their skill levels. May sound shallow, but I've often found that doing so generally lands me with like-minded people who I consequently get along better with.
Bingo. This is the #1 reason that a significant death penalty is awesome. When you can run into a task all gung-ho without care or concern for the outcome, what's lost is any sense of caution or concern. The bits about EQ aside (sorry, but communities in those days were better due to who was playing, not just a DP), death penalties really do force players to take care with their actions. You really can't care about something without consequence, but when it's added, it heightens the entire experience whether it's "just a game" or not.
As a side note; you, sir, have a friend that is an imbecile for not setting boundaries for others not to mess with his possessions! Placing blame on the game and its penalty is just indicitave of a person with an attitude that shirks responsibility for their own mistakes. After all, he could've simply logged off.
In all, I'm a bit confused as to why someone who doesn't seem to like MMOs is writing an article for a site dedicated to them.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Death penalties do suck, and they should suck.
Your character dying means you failed. If failing doesn't mean anything, then it devalues what it means to win.
The appropriate harshness of a death penalty does vary per what the game is trying to aim for. For casual gamers, a lower death penality may be more convenient, however for a normal or hardcore player, it will leave more to be desired.
I don't think it adds challenge but it does add consequence.
If you do something and you "win" then you are rewarded. If you don't win then there should be some sort of "losing" scenario. If you are going to get rewarded then there should also be a consequence for failure. Otherwise it's jsut rewards and that feels a bit unbalanced.
It's true that RPG's don't really have a death penalty. But that is because "you die".
Your character falls to the ground and essentially "game over'. You then have the choice to load up your last save or go outside and enjoy the day.
There is essentially and end.
Since there is no such thing in an mmo there are death penalties of some sort or another.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My suggestion; If you don't like Death Penalties then go play Farmville. Death penalties bring realize and IMMERSION to an MMO. Else when you want to go back to town you simply die as a very basic example of a death penalty not being any penalty at all.
I soloed most of EQ back in the day with my Shaman. Death in EQ was NOT anything you wanted. Specially in the middle of a bunch of mobs. You actually FEARED dieing. Something that pretty much every MMO on the market today does not give you. In EQ not only did you lose EXP and possibly even a level but you also had to go back and get your corpse. So dieing to get a quick warp back to town was NOT an option.
I don't get this generation of players. You guys (including the Gueat Author) has no damn clue what Immersion is. You simply want everything for nothing and don't even understand the term Risk vs Reward.
Again, go play Farmville. That's more your speed I think.
That is because most RPG games are over when you die, you save often to avoid that.
The original D&D and AD&D made you lose a constitution point every time you died, that is probably the first death penalty that also have been used in many computer RPGs since, like SSIs games (Champions of Krynn and Pool of radiance to mention 2 of them).
It is bad to die in pen and paper RPGs and it is bad to die in single player RPGs. Often it is even game over.
Death penalties are there to discourage reckless abandon and to attempt to ensure some minimum of skill at certain levels of progression.
The death penalty affects the casual player no worse than anyone else. If anything, it affects them less than it would affect a hardcore raider.
The group it does affect are those individuals who feel they are entitled to everything simply because they paid their $15. It does not matter if they have taken time to learn how to play, they want it, they want it now, and there better not be any penalties associated with failure. Heck, most of the time, they want even the possibility of failure removed.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
This is what WOW has turned into. A game built for players that want it all now with as little penalties for failure they can get.
The first "roleplaying game" I played was pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons and at that time in combat if you reached zero hit points you were incapacitated which was bad but not the kicker, from there you went -1 through -10 and if you got to minus ten you were dead and needed to be ressurected which was not cheap and even worse you permanently lost a constitution point for your character so they havein fact existed since the inception of role playing games.
I think you have a point in that developers have no reason to not cling to death penalties because they are often a means to use resources in game as well as an extra time sink.
I'm not sure if you've ever played Star Trek Online, but at release there was zero death penalty in that game (as it is now I beleive the penalty is not mandatory still) and it is a good example of why you really do need a death penalty, often times I found myself with little to no concern when faced with a situation that may have required a bit of strategic thinking or a wiser strategy. Often it was as easy if not easier to just plow ahead, get blown up rinse and repeat until the ship you faced was finally defeated.
That's why I think death penalties as they tend to exist now are a good thing, item decay and a bit of lost hope/res sickness works fairly because it usually doesn't dictate that you take a half an hour to walk back for things or that you really need to wait unless you plan on taking on a bit more challenging mob.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
What a load of BS. It is exactly this kind of attitude that have games like STO created where dying means absolutely nothing.
Dying is supposed to suck, it makes the combat more exciting and gives an adrenaline rush when doing something dificult. Remove that and everything just becomes boring.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
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I believe in death penalties but your explanation falls flat on me.
Adrenaline rush? I don't care about adrenaline rushes. Seriously. I don't want an adrenaline rush as it's not valued. I'm not sure I'm wired that way. So having said that, there are a lot of players who also aren't into the whole adrenaline rush thing.
That very well might work for you but I don't think that is going to be a selling point for some.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
First off I have no idea why WoW is so popular. I tried in when it came out and quit before my first month was done. A couple of years later my friend begs me to play it again cause he plays it. Since I have a month before classes start again I give it another shot. In 3 weeks I have soloed to level 62 and I am bored out of my head. I quit my subscription again. I just don't get why so many people play it.
As for death penalties, I am for exp loss. While some people can't stand them, I still remember the day I made level 17 in Everquest 6 times in one day (damn gators). It never made me want to quit the game, and I felt good once I was able to get past that. I was one of those so called masochists who managed to get a Paladin to level 42 by soloing 95% of the time, even when people told me I couldn't solo a Paladin after level 20. I felt an accomplishment with that character that I haven't felt since.
I understand that many people don't like the death penalties, and I do like your idea of being able to set your penalties how you want them. Unfortunately I don't think any game will do that.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
Herm Albright
(1876 - 1944)
I have to agree with the premise of the article. While I think there are both pros and cons to severe death penalties, in the end they simply take fun away from the game. To me, dying in and of itself is a penalty, who wants to eff up right? I'm not saying do away with DP all together, just don't make it feel insurmountable to the player or extremely annoying.
Steam: Neph
As an Old time PnP DnD'er (played since '77). Death penalties are a must.
It's all risk vs reward.
If you are risking nothing, your reward means nothing. Having no death penalty is like today's teenagers ( I have two of them) that use cheat codes in single player games. If you don't understand why cheat codes are called cheat codes, then you probably don't understand why beating a game using cheat codes means you didn't really win.
Having said all of that, I hated the way a death in EQ could cause you to unlevel. Death should cause an xp penalty on future xp, until the Penalty is paid. I would take half of future xp and use that to pay off the penalty.
The article has a major logic flaw. It's talking about severe death penalties and then proceeds to lump any death penalty into the severe category.
EQ had a severe DP. Naked corpse run with xp and maybe level loss. That was too severe.
Personally I think the death penalty always gets factored in the game design. In Shadowbane, anyone could loot your body should you die, but most of us were extra careful not to be running around with our bags full. Guilds would even build banks next to most grinding spots to minimize risk for their members. But that was part of the game.
I cannot really imagine WoW or Aion with a full loot death penalty. Your bank is always full and you need to be carrying around 1 or 2 sets of gear to play properly.
In WoW, it used to suck to die in a dungeon. There wasnt as many graveyards close to each dungeon entrance. Even today, if your party wipes in Maraudon you are better off disbanding most of the time, as most players are going to get lost during their corpse run. I've had group where reforming took over 30 minutes... A wipe in any Blackrock instance is also a pain.
Even then, I don't really see WoW being a zerg game when it comes down to PvP. In fact, Shadowbane was much more of a zerg game than WoW ever was... :P
I don't see anything wrong with a death penalty, it makes you stop for a moment and think about the situation. However, I don't think Death Penalties should be super harsh.
I play WoW and EVE, and the deaths in both games embarrass me. However, I prefer wows DP more. People say, having a harsh dp makes the game more challenging, not really, having a harsh dp makes you less willing to engage in challenges, while I think Wows dp could be more harsh, dying alone pisses me off enough. I can see why other people need a harsh penalty for deaths, but I'm a very competitive person and the simple act or thought of losing makes me stop and think.
In reality different games should have different dp. If wow and eve's dp were switched up, it wouldn't fit either game.
-I want a Platformer MMO
I disagree. That doesn't happen to me. I don't place much importance in game possessions, so I'm always willing to risk them for the thrill.
When a game doesn't offer me substantial risk, it just feels dull.
I think it all boils down to how much value game possessions have to you.
Once upon a time I think that was much more relevant than it is now since most games you don't actually have a chance to lose possessions anymore other than say Darkfall (which you have the chance of losing everything all the time) or EVE which if I'm not mistaken can be avoided by insuring your items.
Otherwise many of todays games will allow items to be degraded to zero yet still repaired so the fear of actually losing items is really not as big a factor as it once was, for those same reasons I doubt that death penalties are influencing peoples decision on whether or not to engage in certain content either.
As far as the value of in game items goes I think it is really dependant upon what kind of items we are talking about, if it's some carrot on the stick I worked months to gain I would certainly pause before frivelously running into encounters that could make all that work moot but I think you are right in that if there is no risk there is no true reward.
STO is the example I have to keep going back to because I honestly haven't played any other mmo that didn't have some kind of death penalty and I have to admit there were a few times that I just plowed ahead through the map getting blown up over and over again but that had as much to do with the fact that the quests aren't very interesting and it was much more of a "hamster on a wheel" experience for me.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
If that were true, MMO gamers would be MUCH better than they actually are. On contrary I do not believe beating makes better kids, and penalities don't make better people. Only intelligence and training do.
So I agree with the OP. They make no sense at all. Save making us play longer and pay longer beyond reason.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I do not mind death penantlies, but there some things that dome with certian ones do bother me.
I do not believe in down-leveling, but lost of experience is fine.
I do not mind droping items, as long as it not exteremly hard to replace.
I do not mind durability lost or items destorying if not repaired, but I do not like item durability degrading for example original item durability was 100, after a few repairs it has become 85 when fully repaired.
There is a fine balance, if it is to harsh then it becomes frustrating, if its too easy it degrades the overall experience of the game. This of course is my opinion.
If done right then the game gets the right amount of challenge with out being stressful. If a game becomes stressfull it no longer fun. The very very very core no matter what type of gamer you are. Your playing that game for fun and in my opinion if you are not well I think your doing something wrong.
The problem with no death penalty is developers don't really need to tune content. If it kills you...so what? Just rez and try again. It takes some of the immersion factor out since there is no consequence. Strategy isn't necessary - just go die and see what happens.
I'd really like to see a top level MMO try permadeath or at least limited number of deaths per day. Players would be forced to play up to the level of their intelligence if their level 80 was only a death away from being wiped.
[Mod Edit]
MMORPGs are about the social part and teamwork. Death penalties spices the gameplay up a bit... i LOVE harsh penalties because like others have said before me, it keeps you alert and encourages teamwork.
Tibia is a perfect example of good death penalties as you delevel and you actually get a adrenaline kick during pvp. ; )
you obviously never played Eve Online. have you ever seen a grown man pulling his hair out because he had lost a ship that is worth hundreds of dollars in real-life money and his character's implants that are worth the same?
Online Games in Girl's Eyes
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Love the article. I hate how death penalties are implemented. I would love for a game to implement a death penalty that didn't take away what you already had going into an encounter but rather took everything you earned from a certain point up to your death. All loot and coin in open world pve would have a timer before you could trade it. And if you died before the timer ran out you would lose everything that still had a timer or everything gained in a specific instance. Having to not only restart an instance from the very beginning but also losing every single thing gained since the start of it? That would definitely add some tension to the game. Another cool implementation of DP might be where in an instance, for every player death, the remaining monsters might spawn 5 levels higher than normal or many more will spawn at the original level.