They need to start just deleting people's characters when they die. Maybe then people will stop complaining about these watered down death penalties that most MMOs have now adays.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Purpose of a game is to have fun. Death penalty add a risk factor to a game which is good. What's not good are harsh death penalty. I dont mind having to work 15 minutes to get my experience back after death but i dont want to get set back hours just because i died 2-3 times in a row exploring.
Then explore somewhere else.
A good portion of the fun and satisfaction of exploring is the inherent danger that is brings. If there is no danger, you're not exploring, your just walking around.
Whether or not a death penalty works really depends on the game.
The best fun I had in City of Heroes was after I reached maximum level. The death penatly no longer mattered after reaching maximum level. I tried a lot of crazy, even suicidal stunts that were heaps of fun. I played a lot more boldly than I did while leveling.
I had a lot of fun in Everquest (my first MMO) with its harsh death penalties. Having played a lot of different MMO's since Everquest, I now prefer games without the harsh death penalty.
Harsh death penalties are also a barrier to grouping. Veteran players (who have good gear from playing so long) rarely, if ever, group with new players in games with harsh death penalties.
Death Penalties (or at least 'excessive' penalties) make little sense in an MMORPG, in spite of the ad-nauseum repetition of the same old arguments like "but it adds danger". No it doesn't, it adds a burden, a consequence to dying.
The problem here is the domain of the discussion is that of the MMORPG world where PVP power and capability is predominantly determined by gear and stats, not player skill. This means those with inordinate amounts of time, or real world money, pack numbers on their stats as fast and as high as they can.
Regardless of the fact player skill plays some part in a fight . . . it is secondary. The by far rule in MMORPGs is: Learn how to level up and pack gear and stats as fast as you can so you can run around and own people. In other words: PvE activity fueling PvP power and capability.
Death Debt provides no value add in this type of environment, instead providing a back end detractor.
The thrill of the fight at the front end, when the encounter is happening, is where it's at. Successfully predicting the whereabouts of an opponent, an ambush, a successful defense, revenge, etc.
Also consider the magnitude of Death Debt, it's impact on a player, is totally variable across the player base. This is governed by a pivotal human factor, different for each MMO player: Time to Play.
A pimply faced 15 year old with too much time on his/her hands, left to park on their butt for 20-40 hours a week has a ton of available play time each day to scrub off death debt. Someone with limited time to play each day, or week, will find that same debt far more burdensome, perhaps taking more than one night to burn off. You want MORE players in your game-world, not less, and Death Debt, by it's nature, contributes more in the way of a negative population impact than a benefit to competative game play.
The best solution here (heh-heh, you wanted "consequence", right? Ok) would be to dynamically scale the application of Death Debt based on a players time-played average for a week. You play 40 hours a week? You get 10x the penalty for dying than someone who plays 4 hours a week.
Fairs fair. ;D Of course I doubt the above would be implemented given people really don't want Death Debt. What they want is everyone else to have to deal with it most of the time while they run around on characters stat'd to the gills by virtue of money, exhorbitant amounts of time to play, or hacks.
I'm in agreement with Aguitha. The purpose of a game is to have FUN. Some (small) penalty for dying is probably not unreasonable. However, given the impact (level of severity to the player) of the same penalty is completely variable based on IRL available to play, thus isn't really measurable in a meaningful manner, harsh death penalties make little sense. It doesn't contribute to the danger factor, because danger exists on the front end of an encounter. It is instead a back-end detractor. A disincentive to play if the penalty is too harsh.
You want MORE people populating your game worlds. Trust me.
Interesting as always to read the different replies with the many different perspectives they offer. Seems to boil down to personality in the end; some people need rewards and penalties imposed upon them in order to have more enjoyment/immersion and other people don't.
I'm in the latter group. I'm not a gung-ho player of any mmo, regardless of the existence (or not) of death penalty (or social penalty, ie pissing off other members of the group). Strategy appeals to me, no matter what the situation in a game. Whether solo questing, grouping in a tough instance, or engaged in any kind of pvp, I really enjoy using strategy to defeat the enemy. If I fail in my goal (regardless of whether I die or not), but I have taken my time to assess the situation and use some strategical moves, then I enjoy myself. (Obviously even more enjoyment if I succeed in my goal ^^).
Additionally, if I'm grouping and the entire group works well together, using good communication and (again) strategy), regardless of whether any of us die or not (or even group wipe), it is that (ie the communication and use of strategy) which I really enjoy. If I/the group does succeed without any deaths, that's the cherry on the cake; nice but not essential.
I suppose part of what I'm saying is that I don't want penalties imposed on me; that just makes me feel irritated and rebellious. If I die when a little bit of thought would have prevented it, then I feel extremely annoyed with myself and a dp would feel like adding insult to injury. Lack of death penalty doesn't make me play like an idiot (I hope) because the fun for me is playing well, whether solo or grouped. So, in sum, I like my sanctions to be imposed from within rather than without.
EvE; 2.5 years Low level deaths (100 mil isk) no problem. High level deaths 1+ Billion isk .... QQ
Main problem with EvE;s death penalty was that usually in the high level deaths my podding was caused by lag. The loss of a few skill points for a podkill wasnot too bad. but 2 or 3 billion isk took a long time to re accumulate and a lot of spreadsheet trading.
WoW 3.5 years (on and off) I think the death penalty is just right. It always makes me say "dammit" when I die, but does not make me want to quit in frustration because of losing months of work.
Warhammer (break from WOW) 9 mos. I don't think there was a death penalty except to run back to the battle and keep fighing ..... unless you were in a keep and could not get back in because of enimies surrounding it. RVR became one zerg after another ... kinda boring ... even city raids gave no real satisfaction.
So I am back to WoW. And it is still fun for me and I still say dammit whwn I die. Death is an inconvienience and not a game losing punishment. If I lost all my gear and a level or 2 everytime I died I would still probably be below level 10. I would be afraid to tackle any challenges just to see if I could do em (like a 75 elite with 100k hp on my 75 mage with 10k hp).
I think Blizzard has it just right. I guess I am a fanboy .... for sure I am a fan.
My opinion is that "Hard Core" guys who like permadeath and full corpse looting of other players are the guys who have been playing the game forever and because of guild/friendships and uber equipment and stats stand very little chance of dying anyway. If they lost all there stuff and had to start over ... well they might have a different opinion then, JUST MY OPINION >>>> NOT WORTH MUCH.
Its all about risk v reward, I have played EVE for along time but even to long time players it sucks to die and loose a ship etc, BUT.. you learn from the very first death I ever had in eve I learnt something...
There is nothing like playing a game where your intelligence and common sense keep you alive, where if you screw up you pay for it and I wouldn't want it any other way.
After the adrenalin and WTH moment in eve after death you remember to breath and think through what could I have done better.
The motivation to learn is great, that moment when you escape a gate camp, outwit a hunting party, dodge a twenty russians cursing you in local its like nothing else and the reason EVE is the only mmo ive kept playing for 3-4 years without a death pentalty it wouldn't be the same.
This article showcases our society today... we want, no, EXPECT, instant gratification with no consequences. If there is no death penalty in an MMO, all you have is a SIMs game in a different skin. The death penalty is the challenge, the obstacle, the risk that you take to reach the goal. The more watered-down the penalty, the less satisfying the accomplishment. Games are by design about winning and losing. We play games to out-manuever, out-fight, and out-think our opponent(s). There is a winner and a loser. In an MMO, who is the loser if everyone can reach the goal with no risk? For that matter who is the winner? You've won nothing, it was handed to you.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about...
Years ago, as a D&D Dungeon Master, I had been running a campaign for quite a few years with the same core players along with the usual casual, every-now-and-then players. My policy had always been to give a few re-rolls if a main character rolled death, or at least add some way for them to be resurrected at a later time. Newbs and alts died occassionally but that was expected. The problem with this policy was that the players would charge into the most dangerous situations that I could devise with little thought or fear, knowing that they would ultimately triumph without dying.
One evening, the party got into a really rough encounter and the senior character, a wizard with over three years of history and experience, decided to make a move that was both bold and extremely risky since the player had an uncanny ability to roll very good die. Karma caught up with him though. The situation went from bad to downright ugly. Without going into all of the mechanics details, on three rolls - THREE!!! - he rolled the worse possible die, all ones - death. And then on BOTH of his saving rolls (which I granted him in the hopes that his character could be rezzed later), unbelievably again - ONE! His character was gone for good. The players were dumbfounded. I offered to allow him to roll a new character and start at an accelerated level but he refused. Half-heartedly he rolled a few possible characters and then left. I fully expected that he was finished playing and indeed at the next game session, he gave a lame excuse and bowed out. Then the following week, there he was. He had used the previous two weeks to first, be p*ssed-off at me, then at himself, and then finally, to flesh-out his new character along with his backstory and history as the nephew of the deceased wizard, bent on revenge. Over the next few gaming sessions, it became apparent that his character's death and subsequent coming back with a new character had strengthened his gameplay and the gameplay of everyone else as well. The threat of losing characters who they had played for months and years made each adventure more exciting and the players began working together and thinking their actions through (and about two years later, the nephew DID get his revenge!).
If I had allowed that character to survive, the players would have continued playing as always, each trying to make himself or herself look the most important and looking out only for themselves. Instead, the gaming experience was enhanced in almost every aspect and each subsequent death (yes, there were more) added to, rather than detracted from, the enjoyment of the game for all involved.
when we get to the point where even columnist cry instant gratification there is no surprise as to why games are being produced nowadays in such way.
i will reply to this nonsense with an analogy:
have you ever played poker?
try playing poker with no risk - ie: no real money transactions.
you can loose all the chips you like, and then ask for some more.
tell me when you reach half an hour of your poker playing time and you see everyone bluffing by carelessly betting all their chips round after round.
then tell me how FUN! that is. and tell me how much did you learn by playing THAT game.
and then you turn to real money transaction - ie: risk.
sure, you will lose at some point, and you will become upset. sometimes you will win, and you will start to enjoy the game. and you will start to understand how to play it.
even if, at the end of the day, you didn't quite made the "progress" you had hoped for, you'd go back to your room and think: eh, that was fun after all.
Does MMORPG.com just throw dice on who can write columns here? Or do you just accept anyone that owns a keyboard?
I just can't find any other explanation on the sheer stupidity of these ramblings. "ololol I dotn wana play wiht oth3r peeple, tahts not wut MMO's arr about lols".
Honestly Death penalties are so light these days, and games so easy that I have to /facepalm your drunken stupor gaming, and subsuquent rank about it being hard. L2P drunk, or Don't play drunk. Which seems to be the lesson you missed in your fail.
Back in the day when dying ment you de-leveled and couldn't recover your body from a plane of existance, you got damn good at playing. Instead of face-to-wall death zerg rush, fear of death keeps you thinking, alert, and seeking better ways of playing for no other reason than to avoid it.
A) How is no death penality equal to instant gratification?
What IS instant gratification?
C) I haven't seen a single MMO or experienced a single moment where the existence or severity of a death penality meant anything in terms enjoying the game more. There is only ONE thing MMOs can penalize: time. It is the only thing a MMO can penalize you with: you have to repeat something. Either by regaining money for repair, by running to a corpse or whatever. EVERY SINGLE DEATH PENALITY IS A TIMESINK, NOTHING ELSE. That said: how does an additional timesink make the doings you do more fun?
D) There ARE no risks in a MMO. It's a GAME. Risk is when you can lose limbs or life. The only thing you can lose in a MMO is time. Period. So how has a death penality ANYTHING to do with risk vs reward, when there IS no risk in a game? It's an illusion which only exists in your mind.
Sorry for the analogy, but I have this impression it is more like a dog learned to love his master's whip. He doesn't feel loved when he doesn't get spanked now and then. Read about "Pavlov's reflex". Neither grind or death penality are good; people are conditioned to feel they are good, and wickedly so. There isn't ANYTHING good in them. But if you want a death penality, you are always free to penalize yourself. Toss away your gear, delete your character. There. Do it. But leave us who enjoy games for themselves alone with your desire to be frustrated. SOME people do NOT play MMOs out of the desire to proof themselves. If you do, that's your thing alone.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If there was no penalty for death then why have death in MMO's. We might as well all be invincible. I don't need to tell you what game design problems that would bring.
We need death penalties to stop people playing like idiots, simple as that.
You should be punished for death. There should be some consequences for failure, if for no other reason than to provide a serious incentive to put effort into a combat situation with others.
The trick is to make it something that is neither too punishing nor to easy. If you have something like WoW, dying does not matter or mean anything.
I like penalties that do things like detract experience or cost money. Really, the only penalty I have seen thus far that is too harsh is the Guild Wars death penalty debuff. If you fail while trying to complete a mission, reducing your health and mana is a good way to prevent you from completing it when you continue.
But death penalties are important. If there are no consequences, I feel like there is a much lower sense of suspense or risk when trying to do something challenging.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
So, OP solos because he doesn't like people and death penalties suck because he let a drunken friend rack a huge death penalty and a GM wouldn't 'fix' it for him?
Man up and grow a pair!
Jeez. Death penalties (mostly) don't suck. The OP does. Whiny little brat!
If you think Death Penalties suck, then you should play SWG (Star Wars Galxies), they have none except for cloning sickness which takes 10 mins (or less) or some credits or watch an entertainer to take away instantly.
You get no decay or anything to equipment, and people use the cloning system for quick travel, called the clone express, especially if don't plan on doing any combat related things for a bit.
If you only like to solo you shouldn't play a MMORPG's... and death penalties ? They are there to give an extra thrill personaly I like games where you lose everything you are wearing when you die sometimes things you worked weeks for to get. Don't think alot people are fan of this kind of systems but I do.
So I sugest people who don't like this kind of games plz don't play games like Darkfall or UO etc since they are clearly not made for people who whine about death penalties.
Try playing guild wars, the only death penalty there is having to clear the mission over to finish up, and if you get rezed all you suffer is 15%(stacking) drop in hp and mp. Since death is not harsh people can go on and challenge themselves, however I've yet to see people trying to die - in the end clearing the map over and over forever is boring so even the worst of the assholes will try to get the objective in one go. Death penalty is good at keeping you on your toes: you avoid all the fights you might lose, combat is easy and boring, what you are focused on is keeping it that way. On the other hand with little death penalty you are not afraid to go up against a statistically superior opponent and if you do win you know its just because of your skill, not because you spent hours and hours getting the mobs 1 by 1. Playing this way feels great - it actually keeps you on your toes.
If there was no penalty for death then why have death in MMO's. We might as well all be invincible. I don't need to tell you what game design problems that would bring.
We need death penalties to stop people playuing like idiots, simple as that.
Just that it doesn't work. People STILL play like idiots. lol
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The real problem here is that all MMORPGs have to have the same death penalty, regardless of thematic or game mechanics differences. If only we were in a situation where different games could have different death penalties, varying according to what is appropriate to the game and it's intended audience, then we could just put the whole thing down to being a matter of taste, and pick the games that suit us best. There wouldn't be a problem worth discussing, let alone writing an article about. We could just agree that different games merit different death penalties. How great would that be?
But alas, we are forced to come to a common agreement on a single, mandatory standard. A seemingly imposible task.
Damb you, ultra-homogenous MMO Industry. Curse you!
Everquest taught that death penalties are a sure fire way to weed out the immature people that tend to annoy us anyway. Guilds and good friends really mean something when you have a strong penalty. I think every game should impact XP when leveling it's only right you kill you move up and you die you move back. Bad players stop being a bane on the community cause they get frustrated and move on. I feel greedy game companies wanted those crappy players money so they dumbed down the penalty to keep a sub and buffed up solo content to the point that any 12 year old can do it. When you go down a deep dark dungeon it's about the experience which includes fear, anger, and when the loot drops it should feel like you earned it. Those days are gone along with the penalty now people expect to run a dungeon w/ half the party afk and still get a drop for their toon.
Comments
They need to start just deleting people's characters when they die. Maybe then people will stop complaining about these watered down death penalties that most MMOs have now adays.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Then explore somewhere else.
A good portion of the fun and satisfaction of exploring is the inherent danger that is brings. If there is no danger, you're not exploring, your just walking around.
There is a difference.
Whether or not a death penalty works really depends on the game.
The best fun I had in City of Heroes was after I reached maximum level. The death penatly no longer mattered after reaching maximum level. I tried a lot of crazy, even suicidal stunts that were heaps of fun. I played a lot more boldly than I did while leveling.
I had a lot of fun in Everquest (my first MMO) with its harsh death penalties. Having played a lot of different MMO's since Everquest, I now prefer games without the harsh death penalty.
Harsh death penalties are also a barrier to grouping. Veteran players (who have good gear from playing so long) rarely, if ever, group with new players in games with harsh death penalties.
U SUCK, DEATH PENTALTIES ROCK !
Death Penalties (or at least 'excessive' penalties) make little sense in an MMORPG, in spite of the ad-nauseum repetition of the same old arguments like "but it adds danger". No it doesn't, it adds a burden, a consequence to dying.
The problem here is the domain of the discussion is that of the MMORPG world where PVP power and capability is predominantly determined by gear and stats, not player skill. This means those with inordinate amounts of time, or real world money, pack numbers on their stats as fast and as high as they can.
Regardless of the fact player skill plays some part in a fight . . . it is secondary. The by far rule in MMORPGs is: Learn how to level up and pack gear and stats as fast as you can so you can run around and own people. In other words: PvE activity fueling PvP power and capability.
Death Debt provides no value add in this type of environment, instead providing a back end detractor.
The thrill of the fight at the front end, when the encounter is happening, is where it's at. Successfully predicting the whereabouts of an opponent, an ambush, a successful defense, revenge, etc.
Also consider the magnitude of Death Debt, it's impact on a player, is totally variable across the player base. This is governed by a pivotal human factor, different for each MMO player: Time to Play.
A pimply faced 15 year old with too much time on his/her hands, left to park on their butt for 20-40 hours a week has a ton of available play time each day to scrub off death debt. Someone with limited time to play each day, or week, will find that same debt far more burdensome, perhaps taking more than one night to burn off. You want MORE players in your game-world, not less, and Death Debt, by it's nature, contributes more in the way of a negative population impact than a benefit to competative game play.
The best solution here (heh-heh, you wanted "consequence", right? Ok) would be to dynamically scale the application of Death Debt based on a players time-played average for a week. You play 40 hours a week? You get 10x the penalty for dying than someone who plays 4 hours a week.
Fairs fair. ;D Of course I doubt the above would be implemented given people really don't want Death Debt. What they want is everyone else to have to deal with it most of the time while they run around on characters stat'd to the gills by virtue of money, exhorbitant amounts of time to play, or hacks.
I'm in agreement with Aguitha. The purpose of a game is to have FUN. Some (small) penalty for dying is probably not unreasonable. However, given the impact (level of severity to the player) of the same penalty is completely variable based on IRL available to play, thus isn't really measurable in a meaningful manner, harsh death penalties make little sense. It doesn't contribute to the danger factor, because danger exists on the front end of an encounter. It is instead a back-end detractor. A disincentive to play if the penalty is too harsh.
You want MORE people populating your game worlds. Trust me.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Interesting as always to read the different replies with the many different perspectives they offer. Seems to boil down to personality in the end; some people need rewards and penalties imposed upon them in order to have more enjoyment/immersion and other people don't.
I'm in the latter group. I'm not a gung-ho player of any mmo, regardless of the existence (or not) of death penalty (or social penalty, ie pissing off other members of the group). Strategy appeals to me, no matter what the situation in a game. Whether solo questing, grouping in a tough instance, or engaged in any kind of pvp, I really enjoy using strategy to defeat the enemy. If I fail in my goal (regardless of whether I die or not), but I have taken my time to assess the situation and use some strategical moves, then I enjoy myself. (Obviously even more enjoyment if I succeed in my goal ^^).
Additionally, if I'm grouping and the entire group works well together, using good communication and (again) strategy), regardless of whether any of us die or not (or even group wipe), it is that (ie the communication and use of strategy) which I really enjoy. If I/the group does succeed without any deaths, that's the cherry on the cake; nice but not essential.
I suppose part of what I'm saying is that I don't want penalties imposed on me; that just makes me feel irritated and rebellious. If I die when a little bit of thought would have prevented it, then I feel extremely annoyed with myself and a dp would feel like adding insult to injury. Lack of death penalty doesn't make me play like an idiot (I hope) because the fun for me is playing well, whether solo or grouped. So, in sum, I like my sanctions to be imposed from within rather than without.
Death Penalties I have ecperienced and my opinion
EvE; 2.5 years Low level deaths (100 mil isk) no problem. High level deaths 1+ Billion isk .... QQ
Main problem with EvE;s death penalty was that usually in the high level deaths my podding was caused by lag. The loss of a few skill points for a podkill wasnot too bad. but 2 or 3 billion isk took a long time to re accumulate and a lot of spreadsheet trading.
WoW 3.5 years (on and off) I think the death penalty is just right. It always makes me say "dammit" when I die, but does not make me want to quit in frustration because of losing months of work.
Warhammer (break from WOW) 9 mos. I don't think there was a death penalty except to run back to the battle and keep fighing ..... unless you were in a keep and could not get back in because of enimies surrounding it. RVR became one zerg after another ... kinda boring ... even city raids gave no real satisfaction.
So I am back to WoW. And it is still fun for me and I still say dammit whwn I die. Death is an inconvienience and not a game losing punishment. If I lost all my gear and a level or 2 everytime I died I would still probably be below level 10. I would be afraid to tackle any challenges just to see if I could do em (like a 75 elite with 100k hp on my 75 mage with 10k hp).
I think Blizzard has it just right. I guess I am a fanboy .... for sure I am a fan.
My opinion is that "Hard Core" guys who like permadeath and full corpse looting of other players are the guys who have been playing the game forever and because of guild/friendships and uber equipment and stats stand very little chance of dying anyway. If they lost all there stuff and had to start over ... well they might have a different opinion then, JUST MY OPINION >>>> NOT WORTH MUCH.
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
Its all about risk v reward, I have played EVE for along time but even to long time players it sucks to die and loose a ship etc, BUT.. you learn from the very first death I ever had in eve I learnt something...
There is nothing like playing a game where your intelligence and common sense keep you alive, where if you screw up you pay for it and I wouldn't want it any other way.
After the adrenalin and WTH moment in eve after death you remember to breath and think through what could I have done better.
The motivation to learn is great, that moment when you escape a gate camp, outwit a hunting party, dodge a twenty russians cursing you in local
its like nothing else and the reason EVE is the only mmo ive kept playing for 3-4 years without a death pentalty it wouldn't be the same.
This article showcases our society today... we want, no, EXPECT, instant gratification with no consequences. If there is no death penalty in an MMO, all you have is a SIMs game in a different skin. The death penalty is the challenge, the obstacle, the risk that you take to reach the goal. The more watered-down the penalty, the less satisfying the accomplishment. Games are by design about winning and losing. We play games to out-manuever, out-fight, and out-think our opponent(s). There is a winner and a loser. In an MMO, who is the loser if everyone can reach the goal with no risk? For that matter who is the winner? You've won nothing, it was handed to you.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about...
Years ago, as a D&D Dungeon Master, I had been running a campaign for quite a few years with the same core players along with the usual casual, every-now-and-then players. My policy had always been to give a few re-rolls if a main character rolled death, or at least add some way for them to be resurrected at a later time. Newbs and alts died occassionally but that was expected. The problem with this policy was that the players would charge into the most dangerous situations that I could devise with little thought or fear, knowing that they would ultimately triumph without dying.
One evening, the party got into a really rough encounter and the senior character, a wizard with over three years of history and experience, decided to make a move that was both bold and extremely risky since the player had an uncanny ability to roll very good die. Karma caught up with him though. The situation went from bad to downright ugly. Without going into all of the mechanics details, on three rolls - THREE!!! - he rolled the worse possible die, all ones - death. And then on BOTH of his saving rolls (which I granted him in the hopes that his character could be rezzed later), unbelievably again - ONE! His character was gone for good. The players were dumbfounded. I offered to allow him to roll a new character and start at an accelerated level but he refused. Half-heartedly he rolled a few possible characters and then left. I fully expected that he was finished playing and indeed at the next game session, he gave a lame excuse and bowed out. Then the following week, there he was. He had used the previous two weeks to first, be p*ssed-off at me, then at himself, and then finally, to flesh-out his new character along with his backstory and history as the nephew of the deceased wizard, bent on revenge. Over the next few gaming sessions, it became apparent that his character's death and subsequent coming back with a new character had strengthened his gameplay and the gameplay of everyone else as well. The threat of losing characters who they had played for months and years made each adventure more exciting and the players began working together and thinking their actions through (and about two years later, the nephew DID get his revenge!).
If I had allowed that character to survive, the players would have continued playing as always, each trying to make himself or herself look the most important and looking out only for themselves. Instead, the gaming experience was enhanced in almost every aspect and each subsequent death (yes, there were more) added to, rather than detracted from, the enjoyment of the game for all involved.
~ Adder ~
Quick, Silent, Deadly
when we get to the point where even columnist cry instant gratification there is no surprise as to why games are being produced nowadays in such way.
i will reply to this nonsense with an analogy:
have you ever played poker?
try playing poker with no risk - ie: no real money transactions.
you can loose all the chips you like, and then ask for some more.
tell me when you reach half an hour of your poker playing time and you see everyone bluffing by carelessly betting all their chips round after round.
then tell me how FUN! that is. and tell me how much did you learn by playing THAT game.
and then you turn to real money transaction - ie: risk.
sure, you will lose at some point, and you will become upset. sometimes you will win, and you will start to enjoy the game. and you will start to understand how to play it.
even if, at the end of the day, you didn't quite made the "progress" you had hoped for, you'd go back to your room and think: eh, that was fun after all.
To many comments...didn't read.
Death Penalties suck only for the Tactically dis-inclined.
Zerging shows Soooooooo Much Talent and knowledge about your Profession.
And these are MMO's. Don't like People? Play FPS's.
MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
To quote Homer;
Little bit of Column A, Little Bit of Column B
MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
It's a great article, and so well written.
As I said before, I think not accomplishing what you want to accomplish is failure enough.
.
Regards,
mszv
Honestly Death penalties are so light these days, and games so easy that I have to /facepalm your drunken stupor gaming, and subsuquent rank about it being hard. L2P drunk, or Don't play drunk. Which seems to be the lesson you missed in your fail.
Back in the day when dying ment you de-leveled and couldn't recover your body from a plane of existance, you got damn good at playing. Instead of face-to-wall death zerg rush, fear of death keeps you thinking, alert, and seeking better ways of playing for no other reason than to avoid it.
A) How is no death penality equal to instant gratification?
C) I haven't seen a single MMO or experienced a single moment where the existence or severity of a death penality meant anything in terms enjoying the game more. There is only ONE thing MMOs can penalize: time. It is the only thing a MMO can penalize you with: you have to repeat something. Either by regaining money for repair, by running to a corpse or whatever. EVERY SINGLE DEATH PENALITY IS A TIMESINK, NOTHING ELSE. That said: how does an additional timesink make the doings you do more fun?
D) There ARE no risks in a MMO. It's a GAME. Risk is when you can lose limbs or life. The only thing you can lose in a MMO is time. Period. So how has a death penality ANYTHING to do with risk vs reward, when there IS no risk in a game? It's an illusion which only exists in your mind.
Sorry for the analogy, but I have this impression it is more like a dog learned to love his master's whip. He doesn't feel loved when he doesn't get spanked now and then. Read about "Pavlov's reflex". Neither grind or death penality are good; people are conditioned to feel they are good, and wickedly so. There isn't ANYTHING good in them. But if you want a death penality, you are always free to penalize yourself. Toss away your gear, delete your character. There. Do it. But leave us who enjoy games for themselves alone with your desire to be frustrated. SOME people do NOT play MMOs out of the desire to proof themselves. If you do, that's your thing alone.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If there was no penalty for death then why have death in MMO's. We might as well all be invincible. I don't need to tell you what game design problems that would bring.
We need death penalties to stop people playing like idiots, simple as that.
You should be punished for death. There should be some consequences for failure, if for no other reason than to provide a serious incentive to put effort into a combat situation with others.
The trick is to make it something that is neither too punishing nor to easy. If you have something like WoW, dying does not matter or mean anything.
I like penalties that do things like detract experience or cost money. Really, the only penalty I have seen thus far that is too harsh is the Guild Wars death penalty debuff. If you fail while trying to complete a mission, reducing your health and mana is a good way to prevent you from completing it when you continue.
But death penalties are important. If there are no consequences, I feel like there is a much lower sense of suspense or risk when trying to do something challenging.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
So, OP solos because he doesn't like people and death penalties suck because he let a drunken friend rack a huge death penalty and a GM wouldn't 'fix' it for him?
Man up and grow a pair!
Jeez. Death penalties (mostly) don't suck. The OP does. Whiny little brat!
If you think Death Penalties suck, then you should play SWG (Star Wars Galxies), they have none except for cloning sickness which takes 10 mins (or less) or some credits or watch an entertainer to take away instantly.
You get no decay or anything to equipment, and people use the cloning system for quick travel, called the clone express, especially if don't plan on doing any combat related things for a bit.
If you only like to solo you shouldn't play a MMORPG's... and death penalties ? They are there to give an extra thrill personaly I like games where you lose everything you are wearing when you die sometimes things you worked weeks for to get. Don't think alot people are fan of this kind of systems but I do.
So I sugest people who don't like this kind of games plz don't play games like Darkfall or UO etc since they are clearly not made for people who whine about death penalties.
Greetz Dark
Try playing guild wars, the only death penalty there is having to clear the mission over to finish up, and if you get rezed all you suffer is 15%(stacking) drop in hp and mp. Since death is not harsh people can go on and challenge themselves, however I've yet to see people trying to die - in the end clearing the map over and over forever is boring so even the worst of the assholes will try to get the objective in one go. Death penalty is good at keeping you on your toes: you avoid all the fights you might lose, combat is easy and boring, what you are focused on is keeping it that way. On the other hand with little death penalty you are not afraid to go up against a statistically superior opponent and if you do win you know its just because of your skill, not because you spent hours and hours getting the mobs 1 by 1. Playing this way feels great - it actually keeps you on your toes.
Just that it doesn't work. People STILL play like idiots. lol
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The real problem here is that all MMORPGs have to have the same death penalty, regardless of thematic or game mechanics differences. If only we were in a situation where different games could have different death penalties, varying according to what is appropriate to the game and it's intended audience, then we could just put the whole thing down to being a matter of taste, and pick the games that suit us best. There wouldn't be a problem worth discussing, let alone writing an article about. We could just agree that different games merit different death penalties. How great would that be?
But alas, we are forced to come to a common agreement on a single, mandatory standard. A seemingly imposible task.
Damb you, ultra-homogenous MMO Industry. Curse you!
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Everquest taught that death penalties are a sure fire way to weed out the immature people that tend to annoy us anyway. Guilds and good friends really mean something when you have a strong penalty. I think every game should impact XP when leveling it's only right you kill you move up and you die you move back. Bad players stop being a bane on the community cause they get frustrated and move on. I feel greedy game companies wanted those crappy players money so they dumbed down the penalty to keep a sub and buffed up solo content to the point that any 12 year old can do it. When you go down a deep dark dungeon it's about the experience which includes fear, anger, and when the loot drops it should feel like you earned it. Those days are gone along with the penalty now people expect to run a dungeon w/ half the party afk and still get a drop for their toon.