You can't please everyone, and I don't think you should try to. Compromises tend to be OK but not great.
No game can't make everyone happy. Wow as any game has it's good things and bad things.
I don't play it myself, the level of difficulty doesn't work for me but that is not really something to complain on since it work for many others. What is worth to complain on is if everyone uses the same level of difficulty or similar things, then you have no choice.
I have no problem playing Blizzards next MMO if the difficulty works for me, sandbox or no sandbox. If that part will be the same as Wow have now I wont play it, doesn't work for me but I don't expect all games to fit me anyways and it is great for the people liking them.
I actually think that how hard a game is makes a lot of difference, too easy and I get bored, too hard and I will eventually quit too (but slower then if it is easy since I try to get better a while first). But I also understands that other people wants it harder or easier than I want and it is great that people makes games for them too.
So I have no complains on Wow, it must do something right since it has so many players, but it just isn't the game for me.
You can't please everyone, and I don't think you should try to. Compromises tend to be OK but not great.
No game can't make everyone happy. Wow as any game has it's good things and bad things.
I don't play it myself, the level of difficulty doesn't work for me but that is not really something to complain on since it work for many others. What is worth to complain on is if everyone uses the same level of difficulty or similar things, then you have no choice.
I have no problem playing Blizzards next MMO if the difficulty works for me, sandbox or no sandbox. If that part will be the same as Wow have now I wont play it, doesn't work for me but I don't expect all games to fit me anyways and it is great for the people liking them.
I actually think that how hard a game is makes a lot of difference, too easy and I get bored, too hard and I will eventually quit too (but slower then if it is easy since I try to get better a while first). But I also understands that other people wants it harder or easier than I want and it is great that people makes games for them too.
So I have no complains on Wow, it must do something right since it has so many players, but it just isn't the game for me.
Explain the difficulty thing when you have in place a ladder based PvP system that is rather simple:
You loose: you drop on the rankings.
You win: you climb on the rankings.
Best players get the best prices and awards like very prestigious titles and mounts (look at that Gladiators flying mount !).
Only 0.5% of the PvP players can even get to that mount.
So explain me your superior feeling since ... you didi't even touch the game in 4 years now (and still want to discuss things).
How can a PvP system (arena's and battlegrounds now) that are rated on a human competition be easy ????
Football is easy when you play it in your street, but explain me why you think you are better than CR7 ???
In your case even, you didn't touch a ball for 4 years.
If Blizzard made a sandbox that was equally as successful as WoW, then I would be a touch worried about exactly how 'sandboxy' the game actually was.
This is nothing against Blizzard, but to attract 12 million subs, you need to attract the casual market and that really isn't compatible with sandbox games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
If Blizzard made a sandbox that was equally as successful as WoW, then I would be a touch worried about exactly how 'sandboxy' the game actually was.
This is nothing against Blizzard, but to attract 12 million subs, you need to attract the casual market and that really isn't compatible with sandbox games.
Why not?
I don't believe in "sandbox" and or "themepark" definitions in the first place. Those definitions are not even supported in gameplay design (look at the sandbox definition on wikipedia). Even GTA, Zelda and Oblivion are considered open sandboxy games.
We discuss G A M ES and the first condition for a game is ... that it has ... R U L E S.
If no FIXED rules, you don't have a game. Be that a footbal game or a monoply game or a multi mass on line game.
So every "game" is within a clear set of "rules". If you would let the players create everything , you simply don't have a game anymore.
Simple.
The above definitions are an invention of players that simply don't even apply to G A M E S.
You confuse sandbox programming with sandbox games.
There are only GOOD developped MMO games and BAD developped MMO' games.
All have open ended gameplay of the player's choice: you can level purely on picking flowers these days in WOW.
You don't even need to kill ONE insect to go to 80. Ok It will take you a decade, but it is the player's choice.
If Blizzard made a sandbox that was equally as successful as WoW, then I would be a touch worried about exactly how 'sandboxy' the game actually was.
This is nothing against Blizzard, but to attract 12 million subs, you need to attract the casual market and that really isn't compatible with sandbox games.
Why not?
I don't believe in "sandbox" and or "themepark" definitions in the first place. Those definitions are not even supported in gameplay design (look at the sandbox definition on wikipedia). Even GTA, Zelda and Oblivion are considered open sandboxy games.
We discuss G A M ES and the first condition for a game is ... that it has ... R U L E S.
If no FIXED rules, you don't have a game. Be that a footbal game or a monoply game or a multi mass on line game.
So every "game" is within a clear set of "rules". If you would let the players create everything , you simply don't have a game anymore.
Simple.
The above definitions are an invention of players that simply don't even apply to G A M E S.
You confuse sandbox programming with sandbox games.
There are only GOOD developped MMO games and BAD developped MMO' games.
All have open ended gameplay of the player's choice: you can level purely on picking flowers these days in WOW.
You don't even need to kill ONE insect to go to 80. Ok It will take you a decade, but it is the player's choice.
---- > So knitting to reach end game is sandbox.
Because my definition of a sandbox mmo equates to freedom and more importantly a player driven, not a quest centric game. If you feel casual players (and we are talking millions upon millions of them here) would be attracted to a ffa full loot pvp game with in depth crafting and a player centric economy so long as it has 'polish' then fair play to you.
EVE is a sandbox.
DF is a sandbox.
UO was/is a sandbox.
Those games have mechanics in place which (whilst some casuals do indeed play them) will not appeal to the majority of current mmo gamers.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Because my definition of a sandbox mmo equates to freedom and more importantly a player driven, not a quest centric game. If you feel casual players (and we are talking millions upon millions of them here) would be attracted to a ffa full loot pvp game with in depth crafting and a player centric economy so long as it has 'polish' then fair play to you.
EVE is a sandbox.
DF is a sandbox.
UO was/is a sandbox.
Those games have mechanics in place which (whilst some casuals do indeed play them) will not appeal to the majority of current mmo gamers.
Wow is not a quest driven game if you don't want to. Players have huge choices.
You can level purely on PvP, purely on doing dungeons, purely on crafting and gathering flowers and mining these days.
FFA full loot is as themepark or as sandbox as any other game.
But you said it alright: "MY" defintion of a sandbox. I already showed you it is flawed.
Eve a sandbox ? You can't create anything that wasn't meant to be created by the developpers.
It has rules like any other game.
The "MY" defintion is worthless for everyone else, because everyone else is handling a different definition which makes the discussion meaningless.
I think crafting a helicopter or a carpet in WOW and selling some of these things is very much sandbox. As is picking flowers and selling them on the market.
If Blizzard made a sandbox that was equally as successful as WoW, then I would be a touch worried about exactly how 'sandboxy' the game actually was.
This is nothing against Blizzard, but to attract 12 million subs, you need to attract the casual market and that really isn't compatible with sandbox games.
Why not?
I don't believe in "sandbox" and or "themepark" definitions in the first place. Those definitions are not even supported in gameplay design (look at the sandbox definition on wikipedia). Even GTA, Zelda and Oblivion are considered open sandboxy games.
We discuss G A M ES and the first condition for a game is ... that it has ... R U L E S.
If no FIXED rules, you don't have a game. Be that a footbal game or a monoply game or a multi mass on line game.
So every "game" is within a clear set of "rules". If you would let the players create everything , you simply don't have a game anymore.
Simple.
The above definitions are an invention of players that simply don't even apply to G A M E S.
You confuse sandbox programming with sandbox games.
There are only GOOD developped MMO games and BAD developped MMO' games.
All have open ended gameplay of the player's choice: you can level purely on picking flowers these days in WOW.
You don't even need to kill ONE insect to go to 80. Ok It will take you a decade, but it is the player's choice.
---- > So knitting to reach end game is sandbox.
Because my definition of a sandbox mmo equates to freedom and more importantly a player driven, not a quest centric game. If you feel casual players (and we are talking millions upon millions of them here) would be attracted to a ffa full loot pvp game with in depth crafting and a player centric economy so long as it has 'polish' then fair play to you.
EVE is a sandbox.
DF is a sandbox.
UO was/is a sandbox.
Those games have mechanics in place which (whilst some casuals do indeed play them) will not appeal to the majority of current mmo gamers.
Umm by your definition isn't FFXIV a sandbox then? And well everyone hates it because it has 100% player freedom, player driven everything, and isn't quest centric. I think they refer to it as an unfinished product on these forums entirely because it fits that definition. So if that really is the definition of a sandbox game, then the only reason this idea would be a success is because of the Blizzard name behind it. But since everyone hates Blizzard anyway, that may be a match made in heaven.
Oh and for the record I like every one of those games you list as a sandbox, even like FFXIV for that same reason. If Blizzard made one I'd play it too, I'd still hate Blizzard though. :P
Wow is not a quest driven game if you don't want to. Players have huge choices.
You can level purely on PvP, purely on doing dungeons, purely on crafting and gathering flowers and mining these days.
FFA full loot is as themepark or as sandbox as any other game.
But you said it alright: "MY" defintion of a sandbox. I already showed you it is flawed.
Eve a sandbox ? You can't create anything that wasn't meant to be created by the developpers.
It has rules like any other game.
The "MY" defintion is worthless for everyone else, because everyone else is handling a different definition which makes the discussion meaningless.
So by that token there have been no sandbox mmos. As every game ever made has some rules in place, there can be no sandbox games..right-o...
FFA is by it's very nature not 'themepark' as it is unrestricted and non linear.
PS the 'my' definition is far from pointless on a public discussion forums given that it's a place for putting forward personal opinions. What would be far more churlish would be someone attempting to speak for everyone. That being said, if you ran a poll as to which games are/were actually sandboxes you would see a common consensus which would agree with my line of thought (I would opine).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Wow is not a quest driven game if you don't want to. Players have huge choices.
You can level purely on PvP, purely on doing dungeons, purely on crafting and gathering flowers and mining these days.
FFA full loot is as themepark or as sandbox as any other game.
But you said it alright: "MY" defintion of a sandbox. I already showed you it is flawed.
Eve a sandbox ? You can't create anything that wasn't meant to be created by the developpers.
It has rules like any other game.
The "MY" defintion is worthless for everyone else, because everyone else is handling a different definition which makes the discussion meaningless.
So by that token there have been no sandbox mmos. As every game ever made has some rules in place, there can be no sandbox games..right-o...
FFA is by it's very nature not 'themepark' as it is unrestricted and non linear.
PS the 'my' definition is far from pointless on a public discussion forums given that it's a place for putting forward personal opinions. What would be far more churlish would be someone attempting to speak for everyone.
That's why I refer to the standard game designer's definition on www.wikipedia.com
It is VERY clear that every decent MMORPG = sandbox to what designers think about "games".
: Even games like STO !
Quote: "
A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]
The sad thing right now is that Blizzard has attained a Coach, Vouton, LaCoste, etc fame. The product may be below average quality and people will still buy it.
I'm not saying they can't make a good game, its just that everyones opinion about every game they have is clouded by fanatism and excitement to play another blizzard product.
It is VERY clear that every decent MMORPG = sandbox to what designers think about "games".
: Even games like STO !
Quote: "
A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]
I would be somewhat cautious about using wikipedia as a source of information. That aside I doubt the majority of mmo players would say that any good game automatically equates to a sandbox mmo.
If you personally feel that WoW/STO/LoTRO etc are sandbox mmo's then fair play to you (although I can't quite see who they fit into the whole 'no rules' thing you mentioned before).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It is VERY clear that every decent MMORPG = sandbox to what designers think about "games".
: Even games like STO !
Quote: "
A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]
I would be somewhat cautious about using wikipedia as a source of information. That aside I doubt the majority of mmo players would say that any good game automatically equates to a sandbox mmo.
If you personally feel that WoW/STO/LoTRO etc are sandbox mmo's then fair play to you.
They all comply to the above definition ! And the links I included above makes for a nice overview of every imaginable key word used today in the game designer's room.
As can be seen, there are elements of sandbox programming in all of these games too (like including web browser technology within the game), but this applies to open end game design (programming).
A nice conclusion: "themepark MMO" as a defintion is not even found on wikipedia as evidently it is in complete contradiction with the definition of open sandbox games above.
And FFA is just a mechanic you will find in some MMO's, but it certainly is not a trademark for "more" or lesser sandbox.
Explain the difficulty thing when you have in place a ladder based PvP system that is rather simple:
You loose: you drop on the rankings.
You win: you climb on the rankings.
Best players get the best prices and awards like very prestigious titles and mounts (look at that Gladiators flying mount !).
Only 0.5% of the PvP players can even get to that mount.
So explain me your superior feeling since ... you didi't even touch the game in 4 years now (and still want to discuss things).
How can a PvP system (arena's and battlegrounds now) that are rated on a human competition be easy ????
Football is easy when you play it in your street, but explain me why you think you are better than CR7 ???
In your case even, you didn't touch a ball for 4 years.
I don't have any superior feeling at all, read my post again... Just because I don't play it myself does not mean I feel superior to other players, that would be rather pathetic.
I just think that Guildwars PvP fits me better. As for difficulty I was more talking about PvE, PvP is as difficult as your opponent is good. GW always given me the best PvP kick, I am not really sure why but to me it is just really fun. Wows PvP feels kinda slow to me when I compare the games.
But.... Gear do matters too much in Wows PvP.... Not that it has much relevance here of course.
Wow is straight on for many people, that is why it have so many players. But it isn't for me, everyone can't like the same games, music, movies or whatever. That doesn't mean that certain people who like certain things are better than others, that is just silly. But you need the right challenge to really enjoy a MMO.
You know, just because someone doesn't play Wow does not mean he or she think they are better than the people who do, they are just different. And that is good or we would all still play Meridian 59, there would be no need for improvement ever.
Explain the difficulty thing when you have in place a ladder based PvP system that is rather simple:
You loose: you drop on the rankings.
You win: you climb on the rankings.
Best players get the best prices and awards like very prestigious titles and mounts (look at that Gladiators flying mount !).
Only 0.5% of the PvP players can even get to that mount.
So explain me your superior feeling since ... you didi't even touch the game in 4 years now (and still want to discuss things).
How can a PvP system (arena's and battlegrounds now) that are rated on a human competition be easy ????
Football is easy when you play it in your street, but explain me why you think you are better than CR7 ???
In your case even, you didn't touch a ball for 4 years.
I don't have any superior feeling at all, read my post again... Just because I don't play it myself does not mean I feel superior to other players, that would be rather pathetic.
I just think that Guildwars PvP fits me better. As for difficulty I was more talking about PvE, PvP is as difficult as your opponent is good. GW always given me the best PvP kick, I am not really sure why but to me it is just really fun. Wows PvP feels kinda slow to me when I compare the games.
But.... Gear do matters too much in Wows PvP.... Not that it has much relevance here of course.
Wow is straight on for many people, that is why it have so many players. But it isn't for me, everyone can't like the same games, music, movies or whatever. That doesn't mean that certain people who like certain things are better than others, that is just silly. But you need the right challenge to really enjoy a MMO.
You know, just because someone doesn't play Wow does not mean he or she think they are better than the people who do, they are just different. And that is good or we would all still play Meridian 59, there would be no need for improvement ever.
You haven't played the game for 4 years...
How would you even know.
Excuses for being so harsh, but I don't comment on games I didn't touch in the last years anymore. Certainly when the game mechanics in PvP/Classes/worlds/ change this much.
They all comply to the above definition ! And the links I included above makes for a nice overview of every imaginable key word used today in the game designer's room.
As can be seen, there are elements of sandbox programming in all of these games too (like including web browser technology within the game), but this applies to open end game design (programming).
A nice conclusion: "themepark MMO" as a defintion is not even found on wikipedia as evidently it is in complete contradiction with the definition of open sandbox games above.
And FFA is just a mechanic you will find in some MMO's, but it certainly is not a trademark for "more" or lesser sandbox.
I must be getting trolled here, but are you really telling me you think WoW/LoTRO and STO are sandbox mmorpgs?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
They all comply to the above definition ! And the links I included above makes for a nice overview of every imaginable key word used today in the game designer's room.
As can be seen, there are elements of sandbox programming in all of these games too (like including web browser technology within the game), but this applies to open end game design (programming).
A nice conclusion: "themepark MMO" as a defintion is not even found on wikipedia as evidently it is in complete contradiction with the definition of open sandbox games above.
And FFA is just a mechanic you will find in some MMO's, but it certainly is not a trademark for "more" or lesser sandbox.
I must be getting trolled here, but are you really telling me you think WoW/LoTRO and STO are sandbox mmorpgs?
Everyone can read the sandbox definition in this link and why all MMORPG's are called sandboxes
Where would you draw the line? On "games I like" or "games I dislike"?
Why would a game where I craft my own flying mounts be less sandboxy than a game where I can't even leave my cockpit? Where I can run around some planets and land on mountains and dive underwater than a game where I can only see space and spaceships?
Wikipedia is right and spot on: choices of freedom to play a game in different ways in a non liniair way = sandbox games.
All the rest is the personal "I dislike X" argument.
Everyone can read the sandbox definition in this link and why all MMORPG's are called sandboxes
Where would you draw the line? On "games I like" or "games I dislike".
I delete all but the last post or two in a conversation chain so as to not clutter peoples screens with a wall of antiquated text.
That aside, you are saying WoW/LoTRO and STO are sandbox mmorpgs and are using a page from wikipedia to back that up. Fair enough lol, but I highly doubt many other mmo gamers will agree with your assumption.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Lets be real here people. Even if a power house like Blizzard were to make us a Sandbox mmorpg that became as successful as WoW, we would still bicker about something. the same old same old "BAH BAH BAH,, BLIZZARD KILLED THE GENRE,,, SO MANY CLONES BAH BAH BAH" To be honest, the reason I believe the genre is feeling so stail is do to something I call the "IP Transition Effect" What this is, is the Syndrome in which the fans of a certain art, dislike or disapproves of the outcome of a changed design to an original IP/ original art. We seen this with Everquest-?Everquest2. Fans cant accept change some times. Even if it improves on basic concepts. You can also see the behavior if you have ever debated in an old school Halloween 1 vs Remake discussion against an old school Halloween fanboy. To people with this mindset, “Original> all” no matter what. Also another problem that plagues this gaming genre is the ego centric mindset that fuels fanboysim’s jealousies of products that are best on the market. Iam not going to lie. I was in that same boat a some time ago. I use to Hate Iphone, Halo ½ fps, Xbox, Nike shoes, Jordan shoes, HalfLife fps, World of Warcraft, all because they were the best on the market, and it was all people would talk about. But once I actually set down and gave it a equal chance, I feel deep in passion with these in some way. Damn I can still remember the day I hated on Halo2 for winning top game at G4oria. But on the Christmas following the 360’s release, I received a Halo1/2 bundle pack, and fucking fell in love with FPS from then on!!! (Damn My 360 broke though so I never got to get Halo 3+ QQ)
There will be also people complaining about complaining people!
Did someone just say that "WoW" is a sandbox game? Did I read that right? Please tell me to get my glasses on and read it again.. WoW is as much a sandbox as Nancy Pelosi is a conservative.. LOL It's amazing how people change, mutilate definitions or words, and morph them into a new definition to promote a personal agena.. Wiki is not always fact, it's often wrong because it's nothing more then readers biased opinions or viewpoints submitted to a website.. Often challenged and changed over time..
Did someone just say that "WoW" is a sandbox game? Did I read that right? Please tell me to get my glasses on and read it again.. WoW is as much a sandbox as Nancy Pelosi is a conservative.. LOL It's amazing how people change, mutilate definitions or words, and morph them into a new definition to promote a personal agena.. Wiki is not always fact, it's often wrong because it's nothing more then readers biased opinions or viewpoints submitted to a website.. Often challenged and changed over time..
nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
Every MMO falls into this category of sandbox stye game.
Everyone would agree if one can read of course.
If you don't agree be sure to point your difference, so we can all have a smile.
Couldn't happen...a sandbox game would never have the broad appeal that World of Warcraft has (as evidenced by all the wildly successful sandbox games out there )
Did someone just say that "WoW" is a sandbox game? Did I read that right? Please tell me to get my glasses on and read it again.. WoW is as much a sandbox as Nancy Pelosi is a conservative.. LOL It's amazing how people change, mutilate definitions or words, and morph them into a new definition to promote a personal agena.. Wiki is not always fact, it's often wrong because it's nothing more then readers biased opinions or viewpoints submitted to a website.. Often challenged and changed over time..
I agree. People will take one little word or small phrase and use that as proof even though there is a ton of proof to the contrary. I am sorry but the issue is there are multiple defitions of the term sandbox and of theme park and there are MMO's that do not fit contrived and wordy Wiki definitions.
Seriously, using a wiki as a source is a major fallacy. Wiki's are user edited databases and anyone and everyone can go in and change the wording and formatting. Go to college and turn in a paper with a Wiki as a source and see what happens. I would automaticall flunk my students for that assignment if they turned in a paper with a Wiki as a source.
That aside, WOW is not a sandbox and this is coming from someone who has played the game for over 5 years and has grown up with MMO's and played them for close to 10 years. One could technically argue that, yes, WOW is an MMO and all MMO's have sandbox elements if you use a broad enough definition. Sure you could log into WOW and grind mobs all day to level but that is not how the game is designed.
WOW is designed to be a theme park. You have set goals, you go from point A to B on a pre-determined path. In CATA, this will be more prominent as the zones flow as you rpgress in levels. Heck, zones even have cut scenes to introduce the zone to the player. The story and the goal is preset. In a sandbox, you make your story.
Sure one could argue that any MMO is a sandbox, but the common, accepted idea or definition of a sandbox is the opposite of WOW, simple as that.
Theme park isn't even mentioned on Wikipedia.
I craft goods, helicopters, motorbikes in WOW and sell them at the auction house in an OPEN WORLD where thousands of different paths lay ahead of me and my individual playing style.
I do NOT have a pre determined path. I can even LOCK experience at any time.
I can have END GAME titles without even reaching end game - like Justicar.
According to Wikipedia it is a sandbox game - like all MMO's.
I don't see why a closed up cockpit view in empty space would be more sandbox in game elements either, if in WOW I can fly with my self crafted mount over seas, mountains, lakes and forests to seek out for adventure.
Get over it: you simply loose on all accounts compared to the general accepted definition of a sandbox game on Wikipedia.
nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
Every MMO falls into this category of sandbox stye game.
Everyone would agree if one can read of course.
If you don't agree be sure to point your difference, so we can all have a smile.
You do realise anyone can edit wikipedia right? If I set up a page that said that Jupiter was infact made of lots and lots of garden gnomes would you take that to be the gospel truth?
Within the mmo community itself there is a clear delineation between themepark style mmos and sandbox mmos, feel free to look at forums/gamesites and you will see that that is the case.
Very, very few people will list WoW as a sandbox mmo.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
Every MMO falls into this category of sandbox stye game.
Everyone would agree if one can read of course.
If you don't agree be sure to point your difference, so we can all have a smile.
You do realise anyone can edit wikipedia right? If I set up a page that said that Jupiter was infact made of lots and lots of garden gnomes would you take that to be the gospel truth?
Within the mmo community itself there is a clear delineation between themepark style mmos and sandbox mmos, feel free to look at forums/gamesites and you will see that that is the case.
Very, very few people will list WoW as a sandbox mmo.
Like I said (and didn't get ANY answer): go on and change the above definition to your "own" definition.
You will simply not be able to exclude WOW from any other MMO G A M E as an open ended world adventure game.
Unless you will add the "I don't like it" subjective view, which is of course absent in any decent game definition (like on Wikipedia).
Comments
You can't please everyone, and I don't think you should try to. Compromises tend to be OK but not great.
No game can't make everyone happy. Wow as any game has it's good things and bad things.
I don't play it myself, the level of difficulty doesn't work for me but that is not really something to complain on since it work for many others. What is worth to complain on is if everyone uses the same level of difficulty or similar things, then you have no choice.
I have no problem playing Blizzards next MMO if the difficulty works for me, sandbox or no sandbox. If that part will be the same as Wow have now I wont play it, doesn't work for me but I don't expect all games to fit me anyways and it is great for the people liking them.
I actually think that how hard a game is makes a lot of difference, too easy and I get bored, too hard and I will eventually quit too (but slower then if it is easy since I try to get better a while first). But I also understands that other people wants it harder or easier than I want and it is great that people makes games for them too.
So I have no complains on Wow, it must do something right since it has so many players, but it just isn't the game for me.
Explain the difficulty thing when you have in place a ladder based PvP system that is rather simple:
You loose: you drop on the rankings.
You win: you climb on the rankings.
Best players get the best prices and awards like very prestigious titles and mounts (look at that Gladiators flying mount !).
Only 0.5% of the PvP players can even get to that mount.
So explain me your superior feeling since ... you didi't even touch the game in 4 years now (and still want to discuss things).
How can a PvP system (arena's and battlegrounds now) that are rated on a human competition be easy ????
Football is easy when you play it in your street, but explain me why you think you are better than CR7 ???
In your case even, you didn't touch a ball for 4 years.
If Blizzard made a sandbox that was equally as successful as WoW, then I would be a touch worried about exactly how 'sandboxy' the game actually was.
This is nothing against Blizzard, but to attract 12 million subs, you need to attract the casual market and that really isn't compatible with sandbox games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Why not?
I don't believe in "sandbox" and or "themepark" definitions in the first place. Those definitions are not even supported in gameplay design (look at the sandbox definition on wikipedia). Even GTA, Zelda and Oblivion are considered open sandboxy games.
We discuss G A M ES and the first condition for a game is ... that it has ... R U L E S.
If no FIXED rules, you don't have a game. Be that a footbal game or a monoply game or a multi mass on line game.
So every "game" is within a clear set of "rules". If you would let the players create everything , you simply don't have a game anymore.
Simple.
The above definitions are an invention of players that simply don't even apply to G A M E S.
You confuse sandbox programming with sandbox games.
There are only GOOD developped MMO games and BAD developped MMO' games.
All have open ended gameplay of the player's choice: you can level purely on picking flowers these days in WOW.
You don't even need to kill ONE insect to go to 80. Ok It will take you a decade, but it is the player's choice.
---- > So knitting to reach end game is sandbox.
Because my definition of a sandbox mmo equates to freedom and more importantly a player driven, not a quest centric game. If you feel casual players (and we are talking millions upon millions of them here) would be attracted to a ffa full loot pvp game with in depth crafting and a player centric economy so long as it has 'polish' then fair play to you.
EVE is a sandbox.
DF is a sandbox.
UO was/is a sandbox.
Those games have mechanics in place which (whilst some casuals do indeed play them) will not appeal to the majority of current mmo gamers.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Wow is not a quest driven game if you don't want to. Players have huge choices.
You can level purely on PvP, purely on doing dungeons, purely on crafting and gathering flowers and mining these days.
FFA full loot is as themepark or as sandbox as any other game.
But you said it alright: "MY" defintion of a sandbox. I already showed you it is flawed.
Eve a sandbox ? You can't create anything that wasn't meant to be created by the developpers.
It has rules like any other game.
The "MY" defintion is worthless for everyone else, because everyone else is handling a different definition which makes the discussion meaningless.
I think crafting a helicopter or a carpet in WOW and selling some of these things is very much sandbox. As is picking flowers and selling them on the market.
Umm by your definition isn't FFXIV a sandbox then? And well everyone hates it because it has 100% player freedom, player driven everything, and isn't quest centric. I think they refer to it as an unfinished product on these forums entirely because it fits that definition. So if that really is the definition of a sandbox game, then the only reason this idea would be a success is because of the Blizzard name behind it. But since everyone hates Blizzard anyway, that may be a match made in heaven.
Oh and for the record I like every one of those games you list as a sandbox, even like FFXIV for that same reason. If Blizzard made one I'd play it too, I'd still hate Blizzard though. :P
So by that token there have been no sandbox mmos. As every game ever made has some rules in place, there can be no sandbox games..right-o...
FFA is by it's very nature not 'themepark' as it is unrestricted and non linear.
PS the 'my' definition is far from pointless on a public discussion forums given that it's a place for putting forward personal opinions. What would be far more churlish would be someone attempting to speak for everyone. That being said, if you ran a poll as to which games are/were actually sandboxes you would see a common consensus which would agree with my line of thought (I would opine).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
That's why I refer to the standard game designer's definition on www.wikipedia.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay
It is VERY clear that every decent MMORPG = sandbox to what designers think about "games".
: Even games like STO !
Quote: "
A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
The genre began in the 8-bit era with games like The Legend of Zelda (1986), Elite (1984), Mercenary (1985), and Cholo (1986). More recent examples are The Elder Scrolls series (1994 to present), the Grand Theft Auto series (1997 to present), the Fallout series (1997 to present), and the Banjo-Kazooie series (1998 to present).
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]
The sad thing right now is that Blizzard has attained a Coach, Vouton, LaCoste, etc fame. The product may be below average quality and people will still buy it.
I'm not saying they can't make a good game, its just that everyones opinion about every game they have is clouded by fanatism and excitement to play another blizzard product.
I would be somewhat cautious about using wikipedia as a source of information. That aside I doubt the majority of mmo players would say that any good game automatically equates to a sandbox mmo.
If you personally feel that WoW/STO/LoTRO etc are sandbox mmo's then fair play to you (although I can't quite see who they fit into the whole 'no rules' thing you mentioned before).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
They all comply to the above definition ! And the links I included above makes for a nice overview of every imaginable key word used today in the game designer's room.
As can be seen, there are elements of sandbox programming in all of these games too (like including web browser technology within the game), but this applies to open end game design (programming).
A nice conclusion: "themepark MMO" as a defintion is not even found on wikipedia as evidently it is in complete contradiction with the definition of open sandbox games above.
And FFA is just a mechanic you will find in some MMO's, but it certainly is not a trademark for "more" or lesser sandbox.
I don't have any superior feeling at all, read my post again... Just because I don't play it myself does not mean I feel superior to other players, that would be rather pathetic.
I just think that Guildwars PvP fits me better. As for difficulty I was more talking about PvE, PvP is as difficult as your opponent is good. GW always given me the best PvP kick, I am not really sure why but to me it is just really fun. Wows PvP feels kinda slow to me when I compare the games.
But.... Gear do matters too much in Wows PvP.... Not that it has much relevance here of course.
Wow is straight on for many people, that is why it have so many players. But it isn't for me, everyone can't like the same games, music, movies or whatever. That doesn't mean that certain people who like certain things are better than others, that is just silly. But you need the right challenge to really enjoy a MMO.
You know, just because someone doesn't play Wow does not mean he or she think they are better than the people who do, they are just different. And that is good or we would all still play Meridian 59, there would be no need for improvement ever.
You haven't played the game for 4 years...
How would you even know.
Excuses for being so harsh, but I don't comment on games I didn't touch in the last years anymore. Certainly when the game mechanics in PvP/Classes/worlds/ change this much.
I must be getting trolled here, but are you really telling me you think WoW/LoTRO and STO are sandbox mmorpgs?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Why did you delete the definition links that clearly proved it ? Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay
Everyone can read the sandbox definition in this link and why all MMORPG's are called sandboxes
Where would you draw the line? On "games I like" or "games I dislike"?
Why would a game where I craft my own flying mounts be less sandboxy than a game where I can't even leave my cockpit? Where I can run around some planets and land on mountains and dive underwater than a game where I can only see space and spaceships?
Wikipedia is right and spot on: choices of freedom to play a game in different ways in a non liniair way = sandbox games.
All the rest is the personal "I dislike X" argument.
I delete all but the last post or two in a conversation chain so as to not clutter peoples screens with a wall of antiquated text.
That aside, you are saying WoW/LoTRO and STO are sandbox mmorpgs and are using a page from wikipedia to back that up. Fair enough lol, but I highly doubt many other mmo gamers will agree with your assumption.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
Did someone just say that "WoW" is a sandbox game? Did I read that right? Please tell me to get my glasses on and read it again.. WoW is as much a sandbox as Nancy Pelosi is a conservative.. LOL It's amazing how people change, mutilate definitions or words, and morph them into a new definition to promote a personal agena.. Wiki is not always fact, it's often wrong because it's nothing more then readers biased opinions or viewpoints submitted to a website.. Often challenged and changed over time..
Sandbox: a restricted environment in which certain functions are prohibited.
It can also mean and most probably from where it was taken:
A low box filled with sand for children to play in.
A litter box, especially for a cat.
/edited
nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
Every MMO falls into this category of sandbox stye game.
Everyone would agree if one can read of course.
If you don't agree be sure to point your difference, so we can all have a smile.
Couldn't happen...a sandbox game would never have the broad appeal that World of Warcraft has (as evidenced by all the wildly successful sandbox games out there
)
Theme park isn't even mentioned on Wikipedia.
I craft goods, helicopters, motorbikes in WOW and sell them at the auction house in an OPEN WORLD where thousands of different paths lay ahead of me and my individual playing style.
I do NOT have a pre determined path. I can even LOCK experience at any time.
I can have END GAME titles without even reaching end game - like Justicar.
According to Wikipedia it is a sandbox game - like all MMO's.
I don't see why a closed up cockpit view in empty space would be more sandbox in game elements either, if in WOW I can fly with my self crafted mount over seas, mountains, lakes and forests to seek out for adventure.
Get over it: you simply loose on all accounts compared to the general accepted definition of a sandbox game on Wikipedia.
You do realise anyone can edit wikipedia right? If I set up a page that said that Jupiter was infact made of lots and lots of garden gnomes would you take that to be the gospel truth?
Within the mmo community itself there is a clear delineation between themepark style mmos and sandbox mmos, feel free to look at forums/gamesites and you will see that that is the case.
Very, very few people will list WoW as a sandbox mmo.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Like I said (and didn't get ANY answer): go on and change the above definition to your "own" definition.
You will simply not be able to exclude WOW from any other MMO G A M E as an open ended world adventure game.
Unless you will add the "I don't like it" subjective view, which is of course absent in any decent game definition (like on Wikipedia).