You do realise anyone can edit wikipedia right? If I set up a page that said that Jupiter was infact made of lots and lots of garden gnomes would you take that to be the gospel truth?
Within the mmo community itself there is a clear delineation between themepark style mmos and sandbox mmos, feel free to look at forums/gamesites and you will see that that is the case.
Very, very few people will list WoW as a sandbox mmo.
Like I said (and didn't get ANY answer): go on and change the above definition to your "own" definition.
You will simply not be able to exclude WOW from any other MMO G A M E as an open ended world adventure game.
Unless you will add the "I don't like it" subjective view, which is of course absent in any decent game definition (like on Wikipedia).
I sincerely hope you are trolling.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
WoW is not a sandbox game. The choice is not whether I mine to 80 or quest to 80. The choice would be, do I take the quest from dwarf A or stab him in the back and kiss his daughter before skipping along my merry way.
Don't kid yourself that you are not in a themepark. You get on the rollercoaster, you stand in line for the same drinks as everyone else.
It is VERY clear that every decent MMORPG = sandbox to what designers think about "games".
: Even games like STO !
Quote: "
A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]
I would be somewhat cautious about using wikipedia as a source of information. That aside I doubt the majority of mmo players would say that any good game automatically equates to a sandbox mmo.
If you personally feel that WoW/STO/LoTRO etc are sandbox mmo's then fair play to you.
They all comply to the above definition ! And the links I included above makes for a nice overview of every imaginable key word used today in the game designer's room.
As can be seen, there are elements of sandbox programming in all of these games too (like including web browser technology within the game), but this applies to open end game design (programming).
A nice conclusion: "themepark MMO" as a defintion is not even found on wikipedia as evidently it is in complete contradiction with the definition of open sandbox games above.
And FFA is just a mechanic you will find in some MMO's, but it certainly is not a trademark for "more" or lesser sandbox.
Who gives a fuck? Semantic are not the topic of this discussuion. I think we can all agree that the OP is familiar with the popular concepts of sandbox and themepark. I don't care what the game developers consider to be sandbox, and if they don't even use the term themepark. We, the players, do label games by these terms and we, the players, are the ones discussing the topic. So in our minds there are sandbox games and I'd be willing to bet that the way the OP referred to sandbox games is in line with our common conception of what a sandbox MMO is. You can have rules in a game and not hold a player's hand through questing for levels. Yes, max level can be achieved in WoW without grinding or doing quests but that is not the core of the game. Any game where there is a central element of questing and a set storyline for players to follow is not sandbox in the eyes of the masses.
Back on topic. If Blizzard were to make a sandbox game I would at least try it out. However, I, like most people it seems, have lost faith in Blizzard's ability to make a game for the less casual type of player, which is the group that tends to prefer sandbox games. I highly doubt that they would be able to keep it the way most sandbox players would like it before inevitably streamlining the process and adding quests to help players achieve max level. That's not to say that a sandbox game can't have quests, but they shouldn't be the primary form of gameplay. What most people looking for a sandbox game want is an open world where they can form strong communities and develop online civilizations within the setting provided. They're not looking for games in the traditional sense so much as they are looking for an online renaissance fair that lasts 24/7. Honestly, I don't think that Blizzard would make a game that appeals to that niche of a crowd without eventually trying to increase the mass appeal and changing the fundamentals of the game. Bobby Kotick wouldn't be willing to see a game with only 100,000 subs when WoW has 12 million.
Who gives a fuck? Semantic are not the topic of this discussuion. I think we can all agree that the OP is familiar with the popular concepts of sandbox and themepark. I don't care what the game developers consider to be sandbox, and if they don't even use the term themepark. We, the players, do label games by these terms and we, the players, are the ones discussing the topic. So in our minds there are sandbox games and I'd be willing to bet that the way the OP referred to sandbox games is in line with our common conception of what a sandbox MMO is. You can have rules in a game and not hold a player's hand through questing for levels. Yes, max level can be achieved in WoW without grinding or doing quests but that is not the core of the game. Any game where there is a central element of questing and a set storyline for players to follow is not sandbox in the eyes of the masses.
Back on topic. If Blizzard were to make a sandbox game I would at least try it out. However, I, like most people it seems, have lost faith in Blizzard's ability to make a game for the less casual type of player, which is the group that tends to prefer sandbox games. I highly doubt that they would be able to keep it the way most sandbox players would like it before inevitably streamlining the process and adding quests to help players achieve max level. That's not to say that a sandbox game can't have quests, but they shouldn't be the primary form of gameplay. What most people looking for a sandbox game want is an open world where they can form strong communities and develop online civilizations within the setting provided. They're not looking for games in the traditional sense so much as they are looking for an online renaissance fair that lasts 24/7. Honestly, I don't think that Blizzard would make a game that appeals to that niche of a crowd without eventually trying to increase the mass appeal and changing the fundamentals of the game. Bobby Kotick wouldn't be willing to see a game with only 100,000 subs when WoW has 12 million.
It is not a question of semantics. It is the the CORE element of this discussion: what exaclty IS a so called sandbox game.?
You all simply have a DIFFERENT set of definitions. The only one giving a general internet definition is me.
Players in ANY MMO don't have to follow any set story line. I play in WOW for pure PvP titles.
I couldn't care less for the Lich King slayer title. I am playing to have Justicar, Conqueror or Rival titles (as Gladiator is out of my league). Master of Wintergrasp.
I play along these goals that are side lines for some: but perfectly MAIN goals to me.
And like me there are millions who play for their goals, that don't have anything to do with quests or a story line.
A friend of mine was proud because he had all cooking awards: he played 6 months just to have those titles.
Another one played the economy and went for 500K gold. He simply enjoys the AH and finding rare mats.
You don't have to do shit in main quests or following lines in any MMO. ANY MMO.
So instead of producing blablablabla about Blizzard and sandbox: you should first define the sandbox you think is a sandbox and TADAAA !!!= every other poster will come up with his/her own version of the thing.
Saying "I don't believe they would make one" is odd when you can't even define "sandbox" on common grounds.
It is not a question of semantics. It is the the CORE element of this discussion: what exaclty IS a so called sandbox game.?
You all simply have a DIFFERENT set of definitions. The only one giving a general internet definition is me.
Players in ANY MMO don't have to follow a set story line. I play in WOW for pure PvP titles.
I couldn't care less for the Lich King slayer title. I am playing to have Justicar, Conqueror or Rival titles (as Gladiator is out of my league). Master of Wintergrasp.
I play along these goals that are side lines for some: but perfectly MAIN goals to me.
And like me there are millions who play for their goals, that don't have anything to do with quests or a story line.
A friend of mine was proud because he had all cooking awards: he played 6 months just to have those titles.
Another one played the economy and went for 500K gold. He simply enjoys the AH and finding rare mats.
You don't have to do shit in main quests or following lines in any MMO. ANY MMO.
So instead of producing blablablabla about Blizzard and sandbox: you should first define the sandbox you think is a sandbox and TADAAA !!!= every otther poster will come up with his/her own version of the thing.
Saying "I don't believe they would make one" is odd when you can't even define "sandbox" on common grounds.
That's ridiculous.
A sandbox mmo is one with a vast amount of freedom in all aspects of the game, an mmo which is predominantly driven by the playerbase itself.
Let's see:
When you make a toon in WoW do you have access to every skill? Can you make a toon and as you progress learn any skill within the game, or are you RESTRICTED by the class you play?
Can you pvp against anyone at any time in any location?
Can you learn to use/have the capability of using any and every item in the game?
Are dungeons predominantly open world instanced or not instanced at all?
Can players dominate entire zones and effectively rule as the word of law wherever they are?
Again i'll reiterate the point, wikipedia can be editied by anyone, it is not something on which to base the entire crux of your argument. Within the mmorpg community there is a common consensus as to what constitutes a themepark and a sandbox mmo. You clearly seem to have missed that.
To quote Tentonhammer...
"EVE Online offers the best sandbox MMO experience on the market
True sandbox gameplay can be a tricky thing to master in MMOs. In an era dominated by World of Warcraft’s “theme park” approach, the challenge ramps up even further as players unfamiliar with the notion of creating their own destiny within a virtual world can sometimes feel lost in the storm without specific game mechanics in place to point them in the right direction. "
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It is not a question of semantics. It is the the CORE element of this discussion: what exaclty IS a so called sandbox game.?
You all simply have a DIFFERENT set of definitions. The only one giving a general internet definition is me.
Players in ANY MMO don't have to follow a set story line. I play in WOW for pure PvP titles.
I couldn't care less for the Lich King slayer title. I am playing to have Justicar, Conqueror or Rival titles (as Gladiator is out of my league). Master of Wintergrasp.
I play along these goals that are side lines for some: but perfectly MAIN goals to me.
And like me there are millions who play for their goals, that don't have anything to do with quests or a story line.
A friend of mine was proud because he had all cooking awards: he played 6 months just to have those titles.
Another one played the economy and went for 500K gold. He simply enjoys the AH and finding rare mats.
You don't have to do shit in main quests or following lines in any MMO. ANY MMO.
So instead of producing blablablabla about Blizzard and sandbox: you should first define the sandbox you think is a sandbox and TADAAA !!!= every otther poster will come up with his/her own version of the thing.
Saying "I don't believe they would make one" is odd when you can't even define "sandbox" on common grounds.
That's ridiculous.
A sandbox mmo is one with a vast amount of freedom in all aspects of the game, an mmo which is predominantly driven by the playerbase itself.
Let's see:
When you make a toon in WoW do you have access to every skill? Can you make a toon and as you progress learn any skill within the game, or are you RESTRICTED by the class you play?
Can you pvp against anyone at any time in any location?
Can you learn to use/have the capability of using any and every item in the game?
Are dungeons predominantly open world instanced or ot instanced at all?
Can players dominate entire zones and effectively rule as the word of law wherever they are?
Agai i'll reiterate the point, wikipedia can be editied by anyone, it is not something on which to base the entire crux of your argument. Within the mmorpg community there is a common consensus as to what constitutes a themepark and a sandbox mmo. You clearly seem to have missed that.
To quote Tentonhammer...
"EVE Online offers the best sandbox MMO experience on the market
True sandbox gameplay can be a tricky thing to master in MMOs. In an era dominated by World of Warcraft’s “theme park” approach, the challenge ramps up even further as players unfamiliar with the notion of creating their own destiny within a virtual world can sometimes feel lost in the storm without specific game mechanics in place to point them in the right direction. "
You are confusing in game specific mechanics with a general game definition.
Let''s have the reverse: CAN I leave my cockpit chair in EVE?
Can I craft other means of mounts than pieces to my space ship? Is there a planet to be build where I can walk on ...
Of course not.
But I don't hold these limits against EVE.
While actually you are holding even a dungeon or PvP against Wow.
It clearly shows your definition is one with a VERY SUBJECTIVE view just like the idiotic Teutonhammer statement. (it's not even a definition but an extreme flame statement on WOW without any specific elements or substance).
A definition has to AVOID all subjective elements to be valuable and usable.
The Wikipedia one is objectively defined and applies to all games.
You just limit yourself to making one up that serves your cause.
You are confusing in game specific mechanics with a general game definition.
Let''s have the reverse: CAN I leave my cockpit chair in EVE?
Can I craft other means of mounts than pieces to my space ship? Is there a planet to be build where I can walk on ...
Of course not.
But I don't hold these limits against EVE.
While actually you are holding even a dungeon or PvP against Wow.
It clearly shows your definition is one with a VER> SUBJECTIVE view just like the idiotic Teutonhammer statement.
A definition has to AVOID all subjective elements to be valuable and usable.
The Wikipedia one is objectively defined and apllies to all games.
You just limit yourself to making one up that serves your course.
How is 'leaving your cockpit chair' a specific game mechanic which differentiates between a themepark and a sandbox?
That said in a few months time, yes you can leave your cockpit...
Can you craft pieces for your spaceship? Er yes, yes you can.
Notice how I am answering your questions but you have avoided mine? Also notice how wikipedia is the gospel but any other mmo centric site with an opposite opinion is simply 'idiotic'. Odd that eh...
As for wikipedia again, lol just lol, Wikipedia is made up by random people posting articles and snippets on articles, nothing more.
Courtesy of the Guardian.
"Can you trust Wikipedia?
The founder of the online encyclopedia written and edited by its users has admitted some of its entries are 'a horrific embarrassment'. "
How about you hold a poll on this site and ask them to list themepark mmos and sandbox mmos. Lets see how that goes shall we. You can bet your bottom dollar that flying about on a fucking horse and collecting baking titles wont make the majority put WoW down in the latter catagory.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You are confusing in game specific mechanics with a general game definition.
Let''s have the reverse: CAN I leave my cockpit chair in EVE?
Can I craft other means of mounts than pieces to my space ship? Is there a planet to be build where I can walk on ...
Of course not.
But I don't hold these limits against EVE.
While actually you are holding even a dungeon or PvP against Wow.
It clearly shows your definition is one with a VER> SUBJECTIVE view just like the idiotic Teutonhammer statement.
A definition has to AVOID all subjective elements to be valuable and usable.
The Wikipedia one is objectively defined and apllies to all games.
You just limit yourself to making one up that serves your course.
How is 'leaving your cockpit chair' a specific game mechanic which differentiates between a themepark and a sandbox?
That said in a few months time, yes you can leave your cockpit...
Can you craft pieces for your spaceship? Er yes...
Notice how I am answering your questions but you have avoided mine? Odd that eh.
As for wikipedia again, lol just lol.
Courtesy of the Guardian.
"Can you trust Wikipedia?
The founder of the online encyclopedia written and edited by its users has admitted some of its entries are 'a horrific embarrassment'. "
Wikipedia is made up by random people posting articles and snippets on articles, nothing more.
How about you hold a poll on this site and ask them to list themepark mmos and sandbox mmos. Lets see how that goes shall we.
You still didn't give ANY neutral definition and so NO you can't leave your cockpit in EVE and you can NOT make other parts of the world except for your spaceship.
Let alone have a nice quiet walk on a planet with some trees and a river...
See that's not difficult to demolish the sandbox in EVE ...
But that's not the point:
-
The point is that: nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
-
Now THAT'S a NEUTRAL definition of general game design without trying to trash talk ANY game.
You can't make a general definition without making it sandbox for one and a themepark for another without going into the subjective 'I don't like this" method.
How is 'leaving your cockpit chair' a specific game mechanic which differentiates between a themepark and a sandbox?
That said in a few months time, yes you can leave your cockpit...
Can you craft pieces for your spaceship? Er yes...
Notice how I am answering your questions but you have avoided mine? Odd that eh.
As for wikipedia again, lol just lol.
Courtesy of the Guardian.
"Can you trust Wikipedia?
The founder of the online encyclopedia written and edited by its users has admitted some of its entries are 'a horrific embarrassment'. "
Wikipedia is made up by random people posting articles and snippets on articles, nothing more.
How about you hold a poll on this site and ask them to list themepark mmos and sandbox mmos. Lets see how that goes shall we.
You still didn't give ANY neutral definition and so NO you can't leave your cockpit in EVE and you can NOT make other parts of the world except for your spaceship. Let alone have a nice quiet walk on a planet with some trees and a river...
See that's not difficult to completley demolish the sandbox in EVE ...
But that's not the point:
The point is that: nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
Now THAT'S a NEUTRAL definition of general game design without trying to trash talk ANY game.
Derp.
"That said in a few months time, yes you can leave your cockpit..."
See the part that says in a few months time?
Derp.
You can deploy POS.
Derp.
You think a sandbox game is one which needs 'trees'.
Derp.
Quoting wikipedia yet again...
Look i'm really pleased that you think WoW is a sandbox mmo and that wikipedia is an infallible source of knowledge to be held in greater regard and trust then anything else. The vast majority in the mmo community don't see it that way. You have I hope noticed that the majority in this thread are already disagreeing with you right?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It is VERY clear that every decent MMORPG = sandbox to what designers think about "games".
: Even games like STO !
Quote: "
A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]
Notice that word...significantly. If you read the definition closely, it says that some games have both linear and non-linear elements. However, as I highlighted, it goes on to say "significant" nonlinear game play is a sandbox.
I am not going to debate the semantics on the term significant but I, and probably 90% of the players out there would say that a significant portion of WOW is linear and therefore not a sandbox.
Just because WOW has sandbox elements (like according to you - crafting, turning off XP, etc...) it does not make it a sandbox. The majority of players play it and I guarantee the developers created WOW to be more linear in its game play (and its OBVIOUS).
And since a significant amount of WOW is linear, and its intent is to be linear, then its not a sandbox.
Well you're wrong 90% of the people in ANY MMO don't play "the liniair way" at all.
If that would be true there would be 10.000.000 Lich King killers and that's simply not the case.
The force of ANY MMO is its diversity in playing styles and do different things. The more choices the better.
In fact the biggest MMO with the biggest choices of playing styles would be more sandbox for the individual player than any other game.
You see: there is no liniair playing style except for the one YOU choose.
There is NO right single way of playing any MMO and certainly not WOW.
I can't imagine I am even discussing this. What do you think we do in WOW: adding levels and that's it ?
My God, no wonder WOW doesn't have any decent competition.
You are all in search for a game (mechanic) that's already there but you simply fail to see the freedom.
What makes WoW so popular is that it's designed to be addictive, aka a lot of instant gratification through several mini 'upgrades' setup along a linear progression of quests and dungeons.
This is why Blizzard won't make a sandbox MMO, at least, if they ever do it will be viewed as nowhere 'as good' as WoW in the eyes of the general gaming population -- WoW players. Sandbox MMOs run contrary to the carrot on a stick instant gratification treadmill mechanics that appeal to the average mass market WoW player.
What makes WoW so popular is that it's designed to be addictive, aka a lot of instant gratification through several mini 'upgrades' setup along a linear progression of quests and dungeons.
This is why Blizzard won't make a sandbox MMO, at least, if they ever do it will be viewed as nowhere 'as good' as WoW in the eyes of the general gaming population -- WoW players. Sandbox MMOs run contrary to the carrot on a stick instant gratification treadmill mechanics that appeal to the average mass market WoW player.
In EVE you do everything to upgrade the parts of your ship. Carrot on a stick mechanism.
Then you go PvP. You loose and you redo everything to upgrade the ship.
At least in other games I can go fishing or try to fish in an enemy's capital and walk around my village.
It's about time that the EVE bubble explodes in the center of the MMORPG.COM universe.
It is even more liniair than practically all fantasy MMORPG's...
You built up, you PvP and you repair or rebuilt.
Options ? About 5% of all those so called themepark games.
--------
Let me put it this way ...
MMORPG's have come to an end point with WOW.: you can NOT replace it with LESS polished options to play.
There are people in this world that just automatically hate popular things for no reason at all. Personally, I hate Apple products. Not because its a proprietary piece of garbage that is overpriced compared to PCs, but because a lot of people like it.
In EVE you do everything to upgrade the parts of your ship. Carrot on a stick mechanism.
Then you go PvP. You loose and you redo everything to upgrade the ship.
At least in other games I can go fishing or try to fish in an enemy's capital and walk around my village.
It's about time that the EVE bubble explodes in the center of the MMORPG.COM universe.
It is even more liniair than practically all fantasy MMORPG's...
You built up, you PvP and you repair or rebuilt.
Options ? About 5% of all those so called themepark games.
--------
Let me put it this way ...
MMORPG's have come to an end point with WOW.: you can NOT replace it with LESS polished options to play.
Example FF14 and see the results.
WoW has a gear grind to promote more grinding, updating your ship in EVE is not about grinding, it's about utility.
In EVE I can pvp in massive fleet battles for zone control, I can pvp solo for the hell of it or as a pirate, more importantly the pvp will have a real consequence upon other players and the game world itself. I can do this anywhere, at any time against anyone I come across.
I can decide to just run as a hauler, moving important items and resources around the universe, fuelling the markets. Other players will need me in order to run their own businesses in game whilst yet others will prey upon me.
I can set up alliances and contracts with other players and corps which will have a tangible effect on the game world and the political structure within it. Should I want I can take any role in combat that I wish, be it ewar, tank, dps, recon, whatever all on one character having the options open to me at anytime.
Via the contract system I can set up any number of business opportunites (like somer.blink for instance) or prey on such businesses.
Tell me, what can you do in WoW again? How exactly does winning that last BG or completing that last instanced raid really effected the community in general? Can I act as a pirate, attacking merchants and stealing their goods? Can I act as a bodyguard, hauler protecting said merchants? That I can't fish in EVE is something I guess i'll just have to get over..
The simple fact of the matter is EVE is a sandbox, WoW is a themepark. That doesn't make WoW shit, that doesn't mean EVE is the be all and end all of mmos. But to say WoW is both a sandbox mmo and that it also has more freedom than EVE is laughable.
Have fun fishing.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
First of all, Blizzard will never make a sandbox mmo as popular as WoW. WoW is a social phenomenon.
Given that, if they did somehow manage it, yes people would still complain. Some people will complain about anything just to see their own words on the internet or hear their own voice.
Lets be real here people. Even if a power house like Blizzard were to make us a Sandbox mmorpg that became as successful as WoW, we would still bicker about something.
Wrong, because if Blizzard made a really good sandbox game not only would they be innovating somewhat, but they'd bring deep games back to the forefront of the market.
People hate WoW because when the day is done... it's really average. It didn't do anything new at all, its just EverQuest but scaled down.
Now if they did something like release Eve except majorly linear and scaled down (not a sandbox) people would complain.
The issue is that Blizzard doesn't do anything new. And never once in Blizzard's whole run have they made a complex game. They make simple games for casual gamers, and many core MMORPG miss the days when there were actual MMORPGs, not coop online rpgs with instances, small worlds, and a focus on soloing.
MMO's weren't popular until WOW came out. Whos to say Blizz couldn't make sandbox style MMO's popular too?
`Shark
Um... what? You call 500k subscribers for a game in the western market (more than most MMORPGs nowadays) and 4 million in a game in the eastern market "not popular"? It was plenty popular, to people who liked MMORPGs. That's the whole thing. Blizzard made an MMO that appealed to people who didn't like MMORPGs.
Besides, this situation is absolutely insane to picture. Good sandbox games are open ended and complex. Blizzard has never made anything complex. Ever.
In fact, the entire reason WoW is popular is because how simple easy and linear is. If they had launched with a sandbox MMO, it never would have caught on with the housewives and 12 year olds that are the lifeblood of WoW now.
@ the EVE fan: so the main activity in EVE is PvP with several options.
Built - battle - built - battle with selling and buying as an option.
The fact you can loose everything in a battle is great, but it doesn't make it a "pure sandbox" either.
Owning the RvR zone in Wow since Wotlk (and now Cata) brings your faction also rewards and "meaningful pvp" (whatever that is in pixeled land) apart from the personal upgrade, but I play Wow for the PvP titles, achievements and ... RANKINGS
Which makes again for a complete other kind of game than leveling and killing a boss.
I still can't understand why a game which lets you create helicopters and flying carpets would be less sandbox than a game where your main goal is PvP while sitting in a cockpit chair.
I would prefer the game with more gaming options. Calling it names makes no sense, since I know what makes options so important.
But having some trivial things like a landscape, a campfire and some walking legs is nice.
But so to you a sandbox game = FFA loot in PvP.
Ok, but I bet 99.9 % of the others will not agree.
Sorry but no MMO's were not a popular gaming Genre until WOW came out and brought millions of people into the genre. I don't even like WOW and I can still bring myself to say that.
Um... what? You call 500k subscribers for a game in the western market (more than most MMORPGs nowadays) and 4 million in a game in the eastern market "not popular"? It was plenty popular, to people who liked MMORPGs. That's the whole thing. Blizzard made an MMO that appealed to people who didn't like MMORPGs.
Besides, this situation is absolutely insane to picture. Good sandbox games are open ended and complex. Blizzard has never made anything complex. Ever.
In fact, the entire reason WoW is popular is because how simple easy and linear is. If they had launched with a sandbox MMO, it never would have caught on with the housewives and 12 year olds that are the lifeblood of WoW now.
Another poster , another defintion of sandbox....
So to you a sandbox game is ... complex.
Tell me how and in what way ? Complex in the sense that you need to find everything for yourself? FF14 way ?
Or complex in that you need a master degree to find a clue about the game?
I would rank CHESS as a game that can be teached to a 4 year old.
But I don't think you will ever be world champion in it.
So define complex.... because games that are complex - as in ... too difficult to learn - simply suck.
In fact, by your justification I could say something like... cannibalism is popular to cannibals so obviously it's popular! When the truth is that it is not popular at all.
Comments
I sincerely hope you are trolling.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
<INSERT ANY POSSIBLE SCENARIO IMAGINED> and people would still complain.
WoW is not a sandbox game. The choice is not whether I mine to 80 or quest to 80. The choice would be, do I take the quest from dwarf A or stab him in the back and kiss his daughter before skipping along my merry way.
Don't kid yourself that you are not in a themepark. You get on the rollercoaster, you stand in line for the same drinks as everyone else.
Lottery winners beware...I'm coming for you!
Who gives a fuck? Semantic are not the topic of this discussuion. I think we can all agree that the OP is familiar with the popular concepts of sandbox and themepark. I don't care what the game developers consider to be sandbox, and if they don't even use the term themepark. We, the players, do label games by these terms and we, the players, are the ones discussing the topic. So in our minds there are sandbox games and I'd be willing to bet that the way the OP referred to sandbox games is in line with our common conception of what a sandbox MMO is. You can have rules in a game and not hold a player's hand through questing for levels. Yes, max level can be achieved in WoW without grinding or doing quests but that is not the core of the game. Any game where there is a central element of questing and a set storyline for players to follow is not sandbox in the eyes of the masses.
Back on topic. If Blizzard were to make a sandbox game I would at least try it out. However, I, like most people it seems, have lost faith in Blizzard's ability to make a game for the less casual type of player, which is the group that tends to prefer sandbox games. I highly doubt that they would be able to keep it the way most sandbox players would like it before inevitably streamlining the process and adding quests to help players achieve max level. That's not to say that a sandbox game can't have quests, but they shouldn't be the primary form of gameplay. What most people looking for a sandbox game want is an open world where they can form strong communities and develop online civilizations within the setting provided. They're not looking for games in the traditional sense so much as they are looking for an online renaissance fair that lasts 24/7. Honestly, I don't think that Blizzard would make a game that appeals to that niche of a crowd without eventually trying to increase the mass appeal and changing the fundamentals of the game. Bobby Kotick wouldn't be willing to see a game with only 100,000 subs when WoW has 12 million.
It is not a question of semantics. It is the the CORE element of this discussion: what exaclty IS a so called sandbox game.?
You all simply have a DIFFERENT set of definitions. The only one giving a general internet definition is me.
Players in ANY MMO don't have to follow any set story line. I play in WOW for pure PvP titles.
I couldn't care less for the Lich King slayer title. I am playing to have Justicar, Conqueror or Rival titles (as Gladiator is out of my league). Master of Wintergrasp.
I play along these goals that are side lines for some: but perfectly MAIN goals to me.
And like me there are millions who play for their goals, that don't have anything to do with quests or a story line.
A friend of mine was proud because he had all cooking awards: he played 6 months just to have those titles.
Another one played the economy and went for 500K gold. He simply enjoys the AH and finding rare mats.
You don't have to do shit in main quests or following lines in any MMO. ANY MMO.
So instead of producing blablablabla about Blizzard and sandbox: you should first define the sandbox you think is a sandbox and TADAAA !!!= every other poster will come up with his/her own version of the thing.
Saying "I don't believe they would make one" is odd when you can't even define "sandbox" on common grounds.
That's ridiculous.
A sandbox mmo is one with a vast amount of freedom in all aspects of the game, an mmo which is predominantly driven by the playerbase itself.
Let's see:
When you make a toon in WoW do you have access to every skill? Can you make a toon and as you progress learn any skill within the game, or are you RESTRICTED by the class you play?
Can you pvp against anyone at any time in any location?
Can you learn to use/have the capability of using any and every item in the game?
Are dungeons predominantly open world instanced or not instanced at all?
Can players dominate entire zones and effectively rule as the word of law wherever they are?
Again i'll reiterate the point, wikipedia can be editied by anyone, it is not something on which to base the entire crux of your argument. Within the mmorpg community there is a common consensus as to what constitutes a themepark and a sandbox mmo. You clearly seem to have missed that.
To quote Tentonhammer...
"EVE Online offers the best sandbox MMO experience on the market
True sandbox gameplay can be a tricky thing to master in MMOs. In an era dominated by World of Warcraft’s “theme park” approach, the challenge ramps up even further as players unfamiliar with the notion of creating their own destiny within a virtual world can sometimes feel lost in the storm without specific game mechanics in place to point them in the right direction. "
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You are confusing in game specific mechanics with a general game definition.
Let''s have the reverse: CAN I leave my cockpit chair in EVE?
Can I craft other means of mounts than pieces to my space ship? Is there a planet to be build where I can walk on ...
Of course not.
But I don't hold these limits against EVE.
While actually you are holding even a dungeon or PvP against Wow.
It clearly shows your definition is one with a VERY SUBJECTIVE view just like the idiotic Teutonhammer statement. (it's not even a definition but an extreme flame statement on WOW without any specific elements or substance).
A definition has to AVOID all subjective elements to be valuable and usable.
The Wikipedia one is objectively defined and applies to all games.
You just limit yourself to making one up that serves your cause.
How is 'leaving your cockpit chair' a specific game mechanic which differentiates between a themepark and a sandbox?
That said in a few months time, yes you can leave your cockpit...
Can you craft pieces for your spaceship? Er yes, yes you can.
Notice how I am answering your questions but you have avoided mine? Also notice how wikipedia is the gospel but any other mmo centric site with an opposite opinion is simply 'idiotic'. Odd that eh...
As for wikipedia again, lol just lol, Wikipedia is made up by random people posting articles and snippets on articles, nothing more.
Courtesy of the Guardian.
"Can you trust Wikipedia?
The founder of the online encyclopedia written and edited by its users has admitted some of its entries are 'a horrific embarrassment'. "
How about you hold a poll on this site and ask them to list themepark mmos and sandbox mmos. Lets see how that goes shall we. You can bet your bottom dollar that flying about on a fucking horse and collecting baking titles wont make the majority put WoW down in the latter catagory.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You still didn't give ANY neutral definition and so NO you can't leave your cockpit in EVE and you can NOT make other parts of the world except for your spaceship.
Let alone have a nice quiet walk on a planet with some trees and a river...
See that's not difficult to demolish the sandbox in EVE ...
But that's not the point:
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The point is that: nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives.
-
Now THAT'S a NEUTRAL definition of general game design without trying to trash talk ANY game.
You can't make a general definition without making it sandbox for one and a themepark for another without going into the subjective 'I don't like this" method.
Btw EVE also has quests...
Derp.
"That said in a few months time, yes you can leave your cockpit..."
See the part that says in a few months time?
Derp.
You can deploy POS.
Derp.
You think a sandbox game is one which needs 'trees'.
Derp.
Quoting wikipedia yet again...
Look i'm really pleased that you think WoW is a sandbox mmo and that wikipedia is an infallible source of knowledge to be held in greater regard and trust then anything else. The vast majority in the mmo community don't see it that way. You have I hope noticed that the majority in this thread are already disagreeing with you right?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well you're wrong 90% of the people in ANY MMO don't play "the liniair way" at all.
If that would be true there would be 10.000.000 Lich King killers and that's simply not the case.
The force of ANY MMO is its diversity in playing styles and do different things. The more choices the better.
In fact the biggest MMO with the biggest choices of playing styles would be more sandbox for the individual player than any other game.
You see: there is no liniair playing style except for the one YOU choose.
There is NO right single way of playing any MMO and certainly not WOW.
I can't imagine I am even discussing this. What do you think we do in WOW: adding levels and that's it ?
My God, no wonder WOW doesn't have any decent competition.
You are all in search for a game (mechanic) that's already there but you simply fail to see the freedom.
What makes WoW so popular is that it's designed to be addictive, aka a lot of instant gratification through several mini 'upgrades' setup along a linear progression of quests and dungeons.
This is why Blizzard won't make a sandbox MMO, at least, if they ever do it will be viewed as nowhere 'as good' as WoW in the eyes of the general gaming population -- WoW players. Sandbox MMOs run contrary to the carrot on a stick instant gratification treadmill mechanics that appeal to the average mass market WoW player.
In EVE you do everything to upgrade the parts of your ship. Carrot on a stick mechanism.
Then you go PvP. You loose and you redo everything to upgrade the ship.
At least in other games I can go fishing or try to fish in an enemy's capital and walk around my village.
It's about time that the EVE bubble explodes in the center of the MMORPG.COM universe.
It is even more liniair than practically all fantasy MMORPG's...
You built up, you PvP and you repair or rebuilt.
Options ? About 5% of all those so called themepark games.
--------
Let me put it this way ...
MMORPG's have come to an end point with WOW.: you can NOT replace it with LESS polished options to play.
Example FF14 and see the results.
There are people in this world that just automatically hate popular things for no reason at all. Personally, I hate Apple products. Not because its a proprietary piece of garbage that is overpriced compared to PCs, but because a lot of people like it.
4 wrds.
HELL YES THEY WOULD.
WoW has a gear grind to promote more grinding, updating your ship in EVE is not about grinding, it's about utility.
In EVE I can pvp in massive fleet battles for zone control, I can pvp solo for the hell of it or as a pirate, more importantly the pvp will have a real consequence upon other players and the game world itself. I can do this anywhere, at any time against anyone I come across.
I can decide to just run as a hauler, moving important items and resources around the universe, fuelling the markets. Other players will need me in order to run their own businesses in game whilst yet others will prey upon me.
I can set up alliances and contracts with other players and corps which will have a tangible effect on the game world and the political structure within it. Should I want I can take any role in combat that I wish, be it ewar, tank, dps, recon, whatever all on one character having the options open to me at anytime.
Via the contract system I can set up any number of business opportunites (like somer.blink for instance) or prey on such businesses.
Tell me, what can you do in WoW again? How exactly does winning that last BG or completing that last instanced raid really effected the community in general? Can I act as a pirate, attacking merchants and stealing their goods? Can I act as a bodyguard, hauler protecting said merchants? That I can't fish in EVE is something I guess i'll just have to get over..
The simple fact of the matter is EVE is a sandbox, WoW is a themepark. That doesn't make WoW shit, that doesn't mean EVE is the be all and end all of mmos. But to say WoW is both a sandbox mmo and that it also has more freedom than EVE is laughable.
Have fun fishing.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
People hate success.
First of all, Blizzard will never make a sandbox mmo as popular as WoW. WoW is a social phenomenon.
Given that, if they did somehow manage it, yes people would still complain. Some people will complain about anything just to see their own words on the internet or hear their own voice.
Sad, but true.
MMO's weren't popular until WOW came out. Whos to say Blizz couldn't make sandbox style MMO's popular too?
`Shark
Wrong, because if Blizzard made a really good sandbox game not only would they be innovating somewhat, but they'd bring deep games back to the forefront of the market.
People hate WoW because when the day is done... it's really average. It didn't do anything new at all, its just EverQuest but scaled down.
Now if they did something like release Eve except majorly linear and scaled down (not a sandbox) people would complain.
The issue is that Blizzard doesn't do anything new. And never once in Blizzard's whole run have they made a complex game. They make simple games for casual gamers, and many core MMORPG miss the days when there were actual MMORPGs, not coop online rpgs with instances, small worlds, and a focus on soloing.
Um... what? You call 500k subscribers for a game in the western market (more than most MMORPGs nowadays) and 4 million in a game in the eastern market "not popular"? It was plenty popular, to people who liked MMORPGs. That's the whole thing. Blizzard made an MMO that appealed to people who didn't like MMORPGs.
Besides, this situation is absolutely insane to picture. Good sandbox games are open ended and complex. Blizzard has never made anything complex. Ever.
In fact, the entire reason WoW is popular is because how simple easy and linear is. If they had launched with a sandbox MMO, it never would have caught on with the housewives and 12 year olds that are the lifeblood of WoW now.
@ the EVE fan: so the main activity in EVE is PvP with several options.
Built - battle - built - battle with selling and buying as an option.
The fact you can loose everything in a battle is great, but it doesn't make it a "pure sandbox" either.
Owning the RvR zone in Wow since Wotlk (and now Cata) brings your faction also rewards and "meaningful pvp" (whatever that is in pixeled land) apart from the personal upgrade, but I play Wow for the PvP titles, achievements and ... RANKINGS
Which makes again for a complete other kind of game than leveling and killing a boss.
I still can't understand why a game which lets you create helicopters and flying carpets would be less sandbox than a game where your main goal is PvP while sitting in a cockpit chair.
I would prefer the game with more gaming options. Calling it names makes no sense, since I know what makes options so important.
But having some trivial things like a landscape, a campfire and some walking legs is nice.
But so to you a sandbox game = FFA loot in PvP.
Ok, but I bet 99.9 % of the others will not agree.
Sorry but no MMO's were not a popular gaming Genre until WOW came out and brought millions of people into the genre. I don't even like WOW and I can still bring myself to say that.
`Shark
Another poster , another defintion of sandbox....
So to you a sandbox game is ... complex.
Tell me how and in what way ? Complex in the sense that you need to find everything for yourself? FF14 way ?
Or complex in that you need a master degree to find a clue about the game?
I would rank CHESS as a game that can be teached to a 4 year old.
But I don't think you will ever be world champion in it.
So define complex.... because games that are complex - as in ... too difficult to learn - simply suck.
In fact, by your justification I could say something like... cannibalism is popular to cannibals so obviously it's popular! When the truth is that it is not popular at all.
`Shark