Almost 4 years ago you doubted the 7.5 million subs (looking through the first posts).
Now you doubt the 12 m subs. While the Activision Blizzard web page shows WOW is set to break the previous yearly record of 1.2 billion dollars this year, like all previous years they breached the revenu records.
10 hours pay a month, 100 hours pay a month, fixed pay a month: they ALL PAY.
And it shows in the bookkeeping.
Since China doesn't even know another system, it's odd you want to trash talk 1.2 billion dollars of income.
BTW: China only accounts for 9% of that income (stated in their financials in 3rdQ 2009) (due to their wages being less than 10% of western wages).
Do the count : it fits.
So you are going to agree that paying by the hour is the same as paying by the month just because they make alot of money ? LOL I tell ya, if Blizzard said pigs can fly some would actually believe it. We aren't talking about money here.
Okay? Who the fuck plays this game for 2 hours a month? I doubt any asian in asia, (who probably farms gold) would want to play this game for 2 hours, they maybe buy 2-4 hours a DAY, or maybe buying 2-4 hours 2-3 times a week.
Almost 4 years ago you doubted the 7.5 million subs (looking through the first posts).
Now you doubt the 12 m subs. While the Activision Blizzard web page shows WOW is set to break the previous yearly record of 1.2 billion dollars this year, like all previous years they breached the revenu records.
10 hours pay a month, 100 hours pay a month, fixed pay a month: they ALL PAY.
And it shows in the bookkeeping.
Since China doesn't even know another system, it's odd you want to trash talk 1.2 billion dollars of income.
BTW: China only accounts for 9% of that income (stated in their financials in 3rdQ 2009) (due to their wages being less than 10% of western wages).
Do the count : it fits.
So you are going to agree that paying by the hour is the same as paying by the month just because they make alot of money ? LOL I tell ya, if Blizzard said pigs can fly some would actually believe it. We aren't talking about money here.
You're right, we aren't talking about money. We're talking about Blizzard having 12 million players that have paid for the game within the last month.
Oh that's right, you're wrong. People that have a subscription PAY for it. We actually were talking about money indirectly. Too bad it was difficult for you to understand something that simple.
Your attempt at making something seem smaller than it is coming off as jealous and immature. 12 million people have paid for WoW within the last 30 days. No other game comes close. They throw that number around because it's insanely impressive for an MMORPG. If another game had those numbers, they would do the same thing.
Its less of a question of who plays 2 hours a month. . .perhaps 5 million do. . .prove me wrong, I guess. But the reality is that Blizzard is not only accomplished, they are just as accomplished, if not most accomplished, at substantially over-inlfating their subscribership numbers based upon some of the fuzziest and questionable math in the mmorpg industry.
Again, its not about their lack of accomplishment, but their spin on it.
By definition even if you have a pay-as-you-go model you still have a subscription. They were kind enough not to count accounts that were not used for the last 30 days. They could have. Plenty of companies count inactive subscriptions in their head counts. The rest is just a marketing thing. It's like the 6 million copies sold for Guild Wars. Are there 6 millions players active at the same time? No. But this number has been used for marketing purpose.
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
So you looked around on your medium server, didn't see enough people and question the validity of their press releases and publicly released profit margin numbers?
Its less of a question of who plays 2 hours a month. . .perhaps 5 million do. . .prove me wrong, I guess. But the reality is that Blizzard is not only accomplished, they are just as accomplished, if not most accomplished, at substantially over-inlfating their subscribership numbers based upon some of the fuzziest and questionable math in the mmorpg industry.
Again, its not about their lack of accomplishment, but their spin on it.
SPIN?
Blizzard are upfront over their sub numbers and how they count them (it's on all their press releases) , you can disagree with the how blizzard count their numbers all you like but when blizz say they have 12 million (by their definition below) then they have 12 million.
World of Warcraft’s Subscriber Definition
World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees’ territories are defined along the same rules.
Don't the pre-paid time cards expire after a while?
What would be the difference between a subscriber who played 2 hours in the last month and the Asian player who played 2 hours in the last month?
I believe the pre-paid cards are 30 days of game time where you pay whatever the cost of the card is. Over in Asia they pay by the hour, something completely different than pre-paid time cards.
Honestly though I think it is irrellevant and that you are just splitting hairs. Let's look at it this way, if over in Asia people are still paying every month to play even for just those two hours why would they not be counted as a subscriber?
I think the point of listing a subscriber is, those who are actively paying to play the game. Why should Blzzard have to punish themselves and not count a person in Asia who is paying for the two hours of game access monthly simply because of the governments restrictions? Even if you don't agree they should be counting them I can hardly see it as nefariously as you seem to make it.
The bottom line is subscriber numbers has nothing to do with average usage, as far as I know some games have made statements or atleast tracked this information themselves.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
A little bit of context you are not providing that non-WoW players may not understand with your post. When you are in queue for battlegrounds or dungeons, that means that you are pugging the instance. Many people are in guilds and do guild only runs (even at the middle levels). Also, for dungeons, if you are dps, you are a dime-a-dozen so you will be waiting longer.
I recently resubbed, and started new characters with my wife and friends. We run in a pack of 4 on a medium population server. Since we have the tank, healer and 2 of the dps, we've never had to wait more than 10 seconds in the dungeon finder. One of my alts is a rogue used in battleground in his high decade, and dungeon runs otherwise. Battlegrounds can be iffy depending on the time of day and day of the week, so I can be waiting 10 minutes or so for either battlegrounds (WSG pops much more often, so if you only queue for AB, you'll wait longer) or dungeons. But, while I wait, I look around the capital city I'm in...and it's loaded with 80s (even when the elementals are not about). There just aren't too many players with non-80 toons running around (probably waiting for Cata and make their new toons).
Doesn't seem like there is enough activity on your server to account for 12 million subs? How about a bit of math. There are about 490 servers in the US and in EU for those players. Asian servers will be about another 500 or so to account for the number of those players. Simple division of 12 millions subs by about 1,000 servers gives you about 12,000 players per server (on average). That will come out to about 6,000 players (on average) for each faction on each server. Now here comes the scary part that seems to be incredibly difficult for some people to comprehend...not every subscriber is playing 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, all month long. Are you playing at this moment? I'm not...nor is my wife or friends. So, on an average server, you're probably looking at 1,000 to 2,000 players per server per faction during non-peak hours. And even during peak hours, some people are busy doing non-WoW things (I know, seems odd, but it's true). Maybe you'll get to 4,000 players on average per server per faction during peak times (I really doubt this, but you never know).
And each of those players are doing their own thing. Many players prefer to play with guildies only...maybe that cuts the pool down in half (I think it cuts it down by 75% or more...but let's stick with 1/2). Down to about 2,000 players (at peak) who are doing a wide variety of activities...gathering, crafting, AH, social, PvP, raiding, instancing, working on non-80 alts, you name it. Given that any dungeon is typically viable for about 5 levels from level 20 thru 50, that really doesn't leave a lot of people to play with, now does it?
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
So you looked around on your medium server, didn't see enough people and question the validity of their press releases and publicly released profit margin numbers?
Makes sense.
Please try and absorb what you read . I said I was on a medium server but I clearly stated I had trouble finding groups on a cross server basis . It does make you look a little simple when you reply to what you think you've read rather that the actual context of the post .
Its less of a question of who plays 2 hours a month. . .perhaps 5 million do. . .prove me wrong, I guess. But the reality is that Blizzard is not only accomplished, they are just as accomplished, if not most accomplished, at substantially over-inlfating their subscribership numbers based upon some of the fuzziest and questionable math in the mmorpg industry.
Again, its not about their lack of accomplishment, but their spin on it.
SPIN?
Blizzard are upfront over their sub numbers and how they count them (it's on all their press releases) , you can disagree with the how blizzard count their numbers all you like but when blizz say they have 12 million (by their definition below) then they have 12 million.
World of Warcraft’s Subscriber Definition
World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees’ territories are defined along the same rules.
Yea. Spin. My understanding is that prepaid cards do count toward their summation of 'annual subscribers', since they (blizzard) doesnt report 'current' subscribers. Also, the Game Room players who have played the game are not discounted as subscribers for the year after 30-days, so their still lumped into their 'annual subscribers' for reporting.
If Blizzard is measuring their subscriptions in the Asian markets the same way that other mmo's are measured then I really don't see the problem. Also..as others posters have written...they are still King regardless of the Asian "subs".
Who cares, it's still the most successful western MMO. Without the asian players they still probably have 5-6 million.
And they're still paying to play the game.
No doubt WoW would be still the mostly played but the point is whey spew out the number 12 million when common sense says you really do not have 12 million. If they turned around and claimed WoW has a hybrid business model then I doubt anyone would ever question the subscriber numbers. Though Blizzard still insists that they have 12 million because their definition of a subscriber works with internet cafes. Common sense says otherwise because there is no way paying by the hour is the same as paying monthly.
And this is hurting you how?
No skin off my back whatsoever but why ask me that instead of sticking to the topic ?
Which would be exactly what?? Do you have any idea how many people have trolled this topic over the years?
The biggest question i feel is, are the other companies counting these people as well in their sub numbers? if one company is counting someone as sub for 2 hours but the rest aren't. Then this really isn't a fair esistimate of how the real game population is. However if all companies or at least the few that matter (i think you can tell which ones they are) are also including the Asian market in their number of subscribers then the comparision is fine.
I think what Saint is worried about is Blizzard is making the numbers seem higher by adding a group base that may only play the game for 2 hours in that month. While other companies may not have this option. If they do then they count just fine as the other games have just as much chance of getting these numbers as Blizzard does.
Basically the rules have to be fair If X company can't get the by the hour people but another can, then to compare the two (like happens so often, WoW has 12 M subs that shows a lot like it.) is unfair as your including a group of people that the first company simply can't get access to, and thus you can't use it as a figure of how good the game is by this factor alone. either the first has to be able to include the pay by hour people or the second has to exclude them for the nature of the argument. Thats not to say they aren't people or important. Just not relevant to the argument.
Let me state it this way, this is hypothetical of course.
Lets say Lotro has a pop of 5M
and WoW has a pop of 12M
Lotro pop all have to be subscribed monthly they can just pop on for 2 hours but they have to pay for the whole month
WoW pop however has half their pop on a pay by the hour (thus allowing access for shorter at a much cheaper rate, thus more desirable for those that only want to play for an hour or two and not the whole month)
Thus to say it has a pop of 12M tends to scew the numbers higher as your counting people that also only were in that world for 2 hours then were gone.
Thus an active and dedicated pop which will show closer to how well the game is really received, you can play any game for 2 hours but your not really a subscriber. I can buy a magizine once but i'm not really a subscriber.
So in essences if half of WoW population are made up of people who only played a couple of hours. Then the real population of the game is somewhere around 6M subscirbers. While Lotro still doesn't beat this total. WoW is no longer the giant that noone can reach.
Of course this is all hypothetical as i have no idea how long people who play by hour play or how long they play when they play by hour.
But if things were reversed and Lotro offered this option as well and picked up the play by hour market to. Then lets say they get 5M people that pay for 2 hours during that month.
Their population would grow from 5M customers to 10M, thus they look like a contender for WoW's throne so to speak.
It's all about perspective, if there are 10M+ people playing this game it does have a draw.
Leastwise thats how i see it.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The MMORPG part of Blizzard stands at 1.2 billion dollars in 2009.
They are targettted to breach 1.3 billion dollars in 2010.
With that last figure they are bigger than the number 2,3,4,5,6 and 7 combined according to Forbes Int (based on 2009 accounts). And most of them are Asian and Chinese..
To compare EVE stands at around 50 m dollars.
The moment another MMO will get to HALF that figure, I am willing to discuss further.
Edit: for the poster above : Lotro is not even found in the top 20 of MMo's (and yes they were launched too in China). So it is UNDER 20 m dollars...
The biggest question i feel is, are the other companies counting these people as well in their sub numbers? if one company is counting someone as sub for 2 hours but the rest aren't. Then this really isn't a fair esistimate of how the real game population is. However if all companies or at least the few that matter (i think you can tell which ones they are) are also including the Asian market in their number of subscribers then the comparision is fine.
I think what Saint is worried about is Blizzard is making the numbers seem higher by adding a group base that may only play the game for 2 hours in that month. While other companies may not have this option. If they do then they count just fine as the other games have just as much chance of getting these numbers as Blizzard does.
Basically the rules have to be fair If X company can't get the by the hour people but another can, then to compare the two (like happens so often, WoW has 12 M subs that shows a lot like it.) is unfair as your including a group of people that the first company simply can't get access to, and thus you can't use it as a figure of how good the game is by this factor alone. either the first has to be able to include the pay by hour people or the second has to exclude them for the nature of the argument. Thats not to say they aren't people or important. Just not relevant to the argument.
Let me state it this way, this is hypothetical of course.
Lets say Lotro has a pop of 5M
and WoW has a pop of 12M
Lotro pop all have to be subscribed monthly they can just pop on for 2 hours but they have to pay for the whole month
WoW pop however has half their pop on a pay by the hour (thus allowing access for shorter at a much cheaper rate, thus more desirable for those that only want to play for an hour or two and not the whole month)
Thus to say it has a pop of 12M tends to scew the numbers higher as your counting people that also only were in that world for 2 hours then were gone.
Thus an active and dedicated pop which will show closer to how well the game is really received, you can play any game for 2 hours but your not really a subscriber. I can buy a magizine once but i'm not really a subscriber.
So in essences if half of WoW population are made up of people who only played a couple of hours. Then the real population of the game is somewhere around 6M subscirbers. While Lotro still doesn't beat this total. WoW is no longer the giant that noone can reach.
Of course this is all hypothetical as i have no idea how long people who play by hour play or how long they play when they play by hour.
But if things were reversed and Lotro offered this option as well and picked up the play by hour market to. Then lets say they get 5M people that pay for 2 hours during that month.
Their population would grow from 5M customers to 10M, thus they look like a contender for WoW's throne so to speak.
It's all about perspective, if there are 10M+ people playing this game it does have a draw.
Leastwise thats how i see it.
I touched on a few things you spoke on in my last post, if the op was trying to make that statement then maybe he should have made it known that other companies aren't doing the counting the same way but I didn't see that mentioned at all.
Regardless of how others try to make it look I have a hard time seeing how counting people who actively pay for that month as subscirbers regardless of how much time they spend in game is something that is frowned upon. That is the definition of a subscriber, and it's nothing a company should feel bad about doing unless they are counting those people who did not pay for that month.
Most companies aren't as forthcoming as Blizzard is with subscriber numbers so they aren't the company I am going to worry about personally.
Now I'm not sure how things are run all the time but I am not going to look at subscriber numbers really to make a determination on a games health or lack of, while it can be the first step any of us who've played them know you have to go deeper than that to tell. You will want to look at regional numbers as well as specific servers too.
Again if someone can point to something that Blizzard is doing in it's counting that others aren't doing then *shrugs* I guess they can ride that point to wherever they feel it should take them but I'm not going to worry about that anymore than I worry about how many subs WOW actually has.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Too bad ,i would be more interested in knowing how many subs there would be if Blizzard took away their right to use add ons and multi boxing.There is a LOT of multi boxing and since Wow houses the msot RMT by far,it is a good assumption that different people are popping on and off using hourly pay cards.When the thousands of RMT sites need to make some coin they will activate their account.
If Blizzard was so smart they wouldn't be paying the NPD group to do all of it's research for them.It is funny how the top selling games are ALWAYS from devs that support the NPD group,sounds VERY sketchy to me.I know by judging my first day in FFXI and my first days in WOW,Blizz was definitely lying about early subs,as the starting area was not all that crowded for a game that claimed it had 1 million right away and FFXI had only a couple hundred k.Also FFXI has a lot more starting zones that WOW does,so again no crowded zones in Wow seems sketchy.
What is more important is that when i rejoined FFXI i actually found a LOT more noob players than in WOW,i saw only about 5-7 players in a whole week in WOW,that is not showing much growth for a game that claims such high numbers.So we have the exact same millions still playing? I no for a fact that is not true,so go figure how they maintain the exact same numbers lol,again VERY sketchy.Let's not forget that Blizzard has been caught in the past for manipulating books,nice that a couple employees took the fall for the mighty giant,otherwise we might not see Blizzard today,since they were trying to sell at the time,hence why the fake book work.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
So you looked around on your medium server, didn't see enough people and question the validity of their press releases and publicly released profit margin numbers?
Makes sense.
Please try and absorb what you read . I said I was on a medium server but I clearly stated I had trouble finding groups on a cross server basis . It does make you look a little simple when you reply to what you think you've read rather that the actual context of the post .
Wow, it's even worse than I thought. You think because the dungeon finder took some time to pop that they are fudging the numbers. It does make you look a little simple when you can't understand that correlating a games overall subscription numbers and your ability to get a dungeon to pop is not logical.
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
So you looked around on your medium server, didn't see enough people and question the validity of their press releases and publicly released profit margin numbers?
Makes sense.
Please try and absorb what you read . I said I was on a medium server but I clearly stated I had trouble finding groups on a cross server basis . It does make you look a little simple when you reply to what you think you've read rather that the actual context of the post .
Wow, it's even worse than I thought. You think because the dungeon finder took some time to pop that they are fudging the numbers. It does make you look a little simple when you can't understand that correlating a games overall subscription numbers and your ability to get a dungeon to pop is not logical.
Let's see ... WOW has around 90+ dungeons now and you have to wait .... a full 10 minutes as dps, 2 minutes as healing and 20 seconds as Tank to ... run ANY of those dungeons (from level 15 to 80, heroic or not ...) at any time ...
And you complain ? I hope some other MMORPG players read this and compare things )))
Wow, it's even worse than I thought. You think because the dungeon finder took some time to pop that they are fudging the numbers. It does make you look a little simple when you can't understand that correlating a games overall subscription numbers and your ability to get a dungeon to pop is not logical.
Let's see ... WOW has around 90+ dungeons now and you have to wait .... a full 10 minutes as dps, 2 minutes as healing and 20 seconds as Tank to ... run ANY of those dungeons (from level 15 to 80, heroic or not ...) at any time ...
And you complain ? I hope some other MMORPG players read this and compare things )))
The really backwards thing about that guys analysis is that the DPS have to wait because THERE ARE TOO MANY DPS that are playing.
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
So you looked around on your medium server, didn't see enough people and question the validity of their press releases and publicly released profit margin numbers?
Makes sense.
Please try and absorb what you read . I said I was on a medium server but I clearly stated I had trouble finding groups on a cross server basis . It does make you look a little simple when you reply to what you think you've read rather that the actual context of the post .
Wow, it's even worse than I thought. You think because the dungeon finder took some time to pop that they are fudging the numbers. It does make you look a little simple when you can't understand that correlating a games overall subscription numbers and your ability to get a dungeon to pop is not logical.
I'm not really interested in getting into a slanging match with someone who obviously wants an arguement . I called you out on the fact you'd not obviously misread what I'd said simple as that . I'm not going to let it spiral to the point where it gets to the point I have to evoke Godwins law .
I'm not really interested in getting into a slanging match with someone who obviously wants an arguement . I called you out on the fact you'd not obviously misread what I'd said simple as that . I'm not going to let it spiral to the point where it gets to the point I have to evoke Godwins law .
That, or your analysis is ridiculous. You are using your experience with the cross realm dungeon finder and your visual count of a medium server to support the idea that blizzard is fudging the numbers.
I no for a fact that is not true,so go figure how they maintain the exact same numbers lol,again VERY sketchy.Let's not forget that Blizzard has been caught in the past for manipulating books,nice that a couple employees took the fall for the mighty giant,otherwise we might not see Blizzard today,since they were trying to sell at the time,hence why the fake book work.
So the 1.2 billion dollars yearly income of the MMORPG part mentioned in Blizzard's audited financial reports (by some doubtful editors like Deutsche Bank and Co) is ... "sketchy".
And you "no" (sic) for a fact it is not true...
Right: so perhaps they "print" that money or perhaps Blizzard is into some illegal Columbian drugs dealing ?
Or - who knows - just perphaps they DO rake in those 1.2 billion dollars per year from subscriptions (9% in China) and selling their MMORPG product.
Seriously: Blizzard is on its way to beat their previous financial records for 6 years in a row now, but you "no" it is not true ...
How much credit would that get you outside of this forum where such people get 5 stars ?
It is not hard to understand, pay by the hour is not a subscription. Tell me whoelse in the world considerds pay by the hour a subscription plan ? Nobody except Blizzards's spin on the word subscription . It fits more in the category of microtransaction than anything else the way Asia has to pay.
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So you are going to agree that paying by the hour is the same as paying by the month just because they make alot of money ? LOL I tell ya, if Blizzard said pigs can fly some would actually believe it. We aren't talking about money here.
Okay? Who the fuck plays this game for 2 hours a month? I doubt any asian in asia, (who probably farms gold) would want to play this game for 2 hours, they maybe buy 2-4 hours a DAY, or maybe buying 2-4 hours 2-3 times a week.
You're right, we aren't talking about money. We're talking about Blizzard having 12 million players that have paid for the game within the last month.
Oh that's right, you're wrong. People that have a subscription PAY for it. We actually were talking about money indirectly. Too bad it was difficult for you to understand something that simple.
Your attempt at making something seem smaller than it is coming off as jealous and immature. 12 million people have paid for WoW within the last 30 days. No other game comes close. They throw that number around because it's insanely impressive for an MMORPG. If another game had those numbers, they would do the same thing.
Its less of a question of who plays 2 hours a month. . .perhaps 5 million do. . .prove me wrong, I guess. But the reality is that Blizzard is not only accomplished, they are just as accomplished, if not most accomplished, at substantially over-inlfating their subscribership numbers based upon some of the fuzziest and questionable math in the mmorpg industry.
Again, its not about their lack of accomplishment, but their spin on it.
By definition even if you have a pay-as-you-go model you still have a subscription. They were kind enough not to count accounts that were not used for the last 30 days. They could have. Plenty of companies count inactive subscriptions in their head counts. The rest is just a marketing thing. It's like the 6 million copies sold for Guild Wars. Are there 6 millions players active at the same time? No. But this number has been used for marketing purpose.
I would love to know how many people they have playing in the EU now . When you have to regulary wait in the 30-40 level bgs for an average for 20-30 mins it means theres not 20 people interested in doing them over a number of different servers . Similar applys with a waiting time of 10-20 mins on the cross server looking for a group system . I guess everyone must either be playing the endgame . expcept when i log onto my level 80s it seams pretty dead still even on a medium server . OK its before a major expansion so that could have something to do with it . But that aside it was like this before TBC or Liche King . So to me the the 12 million does'nt add up either . It makes me wonder how Blizzard collate thier data . Sorry I simply don't believe these figures based on my experiance in game recently . If they had been released after Cata then yeah maybe but this either a plain and obviously lie at worst or manipulation of the statistics on Blizzards part at best . I know I'll never convince a fan of this but logically its either one or the other .
I've a feeling Blizzard will still be telling us they have 12 million players in 15 years time when everyones moved to other games and its patently obvious they dont .
So you looked around on your medium server, didn't see enough people and question the validity of their press releases and publicly released profit margin numbers?
Makes sense.
SPIN?
Blizzard are upfront over their sub numbers and how they count them (it's on all their press releases) , you can disagree with the how blizzard count their numbers all you like but when blizz say they have 12 million (by their definition below) then they have 12 million.
World of Warcraft’s Subscriber Definition
World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees’ territories are defined along the same rules.
Honestly though I think it is irrellevant and that you are just splitting hairs. Let's look at it this way, if over in Asia people are still paying every month to play even for just those two hours why would they not be counted as a subscriber?
I think the point of listing a subscriber is, those who are actively paying to play the game. Why should Blzzard have to punish themselves and not count a person in Asia who is paying for the two hours of game access monthly simply because of the governments restrictions? Even if you don't agree they should be counting them I can hardly see it as nefariously as you seem to make it.
The bottom line is subscriber numbers has nothing to do with average usage, as far as I know some games have made statements or atleast tracked this information themselves.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
A little bit of context you are not providing that non-WoW players may not understand with your post. When you are in queue for battlegrounds or dungeons, that means that you are pugging the instance. Many people are in guilds and do guild only runs (even at the middle levels). Also, for dungeons, if you are dps, you are a dime-a-dozen so you will be waiting longer.
I recently resubbed, and started new characters with my wife and friends. We run in a pack of 4 on a medium population server. Since we have the tank, healer and 2 of the dps, we've never had to wait more than 10 seconds in the dungeon finder. One of my alts is a rogue used in battleground in his high decade, and dungeon runs otherwise. Battlegrounds can be iffy depending on the time of day and day of the week, so I can be waiting 10 minutes or so for either battlegrounds (WSG pops much more often, so if you only queue for AB, you'll wait longer) or dungeons. But, while I wait, I look around the capital city I'm in...and it's loaded with 80s (even when the elementals are not about). There just aren't too many players with non-80 toons running around (probably waiting for Cata and make their new toons).
Doesn't seem like there is enough activity on your server to account for 12 million subs? How about a bit of math. There are about 490 servers in the US and in EU for those players. Asian servers will be about another 500 or so to account for the number of those players. Simple division of 12 millions subs by about 1,000 servers gives you about 12,000 players per server (on average). That will come out to about 6,000 players (on average) for each faction on each server. Now here comes the scary part that seems to be incredibly difficult for some people to comprehend...not every subscriber is playing 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, all month long. Are you playing at this moment? I'm not...nor is my wife or friends. So, on an average server, you're probably looking at 1,000 to 2,000 players per server per faction during non-peak hours. And even during peak hours, some people are busy doing non-WoW things (I know, seems odd, but it's true). Maybe you'll get to 4,000 players on average per server per faction during peak times (I really doubt this, but you never know).
And each of those players are doing their own thing. Many players prefer to play with guildies only...maybe that cuts the pool down in half (I think it cuts it down by 75% or more...but let's stick with 1/2). Down to about 2,000 players (at peak) who are doing a wide variety of activities...gathering, crafting, AH, social, PvP, raiding, instancing, working on non-80 alts, you name it. Given that any dungeon is typically viable for about 5 levels from level 20 thru 50, that really doesn't leave a lot of people to play with, now does it?
Please try and absorb what you read . I said I was on a medium server but I clearly stated I had trouble finding groups on a cross server basis . It does make you look a little simple when you reply to what you think you've read rather that the actual context of the post .
Yea. Spin. My understanding is that prepaid cards do count toward their summation of 'annual subscribers', since they (blizzard) doesnt report 'current' subscribers. Also, the Game Room players who have played the game are not discounted as subscribers for the year after 30-days, so their still lumped into their 'annual subscribers' for reporting.
If Blizzard is measuring their subscriptions in the Asian markets the same way that other mmo's are measured then I really don't see the problem. Also..as others posters have written...they are still King regardless of the Asian "subs".
Which would be exactly what?? Do you have any idea how many people have trolled this topic over the years?
The biggest question i feel is, are the other companies counting these people as well in their sub numbers? if one company is counting someone as sub for 2 hours but the rest aren't. Then this really isn't a fair esistimate of how the real game population is. However if all companies or at least the few that matter (i think you can tell which ones they are) are also including the Asian market in their number of subscribers then the comparision is fine.
I think what Saint is worried about is Blizzard is making the numbers seem higher by adding a group base that may only play the game for 2 hours in that month. While other companies may not have this option. If they do then they count just fine as the other games have just as much chance of getting these numbers as Blizzard does.
Basically the rules have to be fair If X company can't get the by the hour people but another can, then to compare the two (like happens so often, WoW has 12 M subs that shows a lot like it.) is unfair as your including a group of people that the first company simply can't get access to, and thus you can't use it as a figure of how good the game is by this factor alone. either the first has to be able to include the pay by hour people or the second has to exclude them for the nature of the argument. Thats not to say they aren't people or important. Just not relevant to the argument.
Let me state it this way, this is hypothetical of course.
Lets say Lotro has a pop of 5M
and WoW has a pop of 12M
Lotro pop all have to be subscribed monthly they can just pop on for 2 hours but they have to pay for the whole month
WoW pop however has half their pop on a pay by the hour (thus allowing access for shorter at a much cheaper rate, thus more desirable for those that only want to play for an hour or two and not the whole month)
Thus to say it has a pop of 12M tends to scew the numbers higher as your counting people that also only were in that world for 2 hours then were gone.
Thus an active and dedicated pop which will show closer to how well the game is really received, you can play any game for 2 hours but your not really a subscriber. I can buy a magizine once but i'm not really a subscriber.
So in essences if half of WoW population are made up of people who only played a couple of hours. Then the real population of the game is somewhere around 6M subscirbers. While Lotro still doesn't beat this total. WoW is no longer the giant that noone can reach.
Of course this is all hypothetical as i have no idea how long people who play by hour play or how long they play when they play by hour.
But if things were reversed and Lotro offered this option as well and picked up the play by hour market to. Then lets say they get 5M people that pay for 2 hours during that month.
Their population would grow from 5M customers to 10M, thus they look like a contender for WoW's throne so to speak.
It's all about perspective, if there are 10M+ people playing this game it does have a draw.
Leastwise thats how i see it.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Like I said: look at the yearly revenue:
The MMORPG part of Blizzard stands at 1.2 billion dollars in 2009.
They are targettted to breach 1.3 billion dollars in 2010.
With that last figure they are bigger than the number 2,3,4,5,6 and 7 combined according to Forbes Int (based on 2009 accounts). And most of them are Asian and Chinese..
To compare EVE stands at around 50 m dollars.
The moment another MMO will get to HALF that figure, I am willing to discuss further.
Edit: for the poster above : Lotro is not even found in the top 20 of MMo's (and yes they were launched too in China). So it is UNDER 20 m dollars...
Talking about inflated numbers ... WOW.
I touched on a few things you spoke on in my last post, if the op was trying to make that statement then maybe he should have made it known that other companies aren't doing the counting the same way but I didn't see that mentioned at all.
Regardless of how others try to make it look I have a hard time seeing how counting people who actively pay for that month as subscirbers regardless of how much time they spend in game is something that is frowned upon. That is the definition of a subscriber, and it's nothing a company should feel bad about doing unless they are counting those people who did not pay for that month.
Most companies aren't as forthcoming as Blizzard is with subscriber numbers so they aren't the company I am going to worry about personally.
Now I'm not sure how things are run all the time but I am not going to look at subscriber numbers really to make a determination on a games health or lack of, while it can be the first step any of us who've played them know you have to go deeper than that to tell. You will want to look at regional numbers as well as specific servers too.
Again if someone can point to something that Blizzard is doing in it's counting that others aren't doing then *shrugs* I guess they can ride that point to wherever they feel it should take them but I'm not going to worry about that anymore than I worry about how many subs WOW actually has.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Too bad ,i would be more interested in knowing how many subs there would be if Blizzard took away their right to use add ons and multi boxing.There is a LOT of multi boxing and since Wow houses the msot RMT by far,it is a good assumption that different people are popping on and off using hourly pay cards.When the thousands of RMT sites need to make some coin they will activate their account.
If Blizzard was so smart they wouldn't be paying the NPD group to do all of it's research for them.It is funny how the top selling games are ALWAYS from devs that support the NPD group,sounds VERY sketchy to me.I know by judging my first day in FFXI and my first days in WOW,Blizz was definitely lying about early subs,as the starting area was not all that crowded for a game that claimed it had 1 million right away and FFXI had only a couple hundred k.Also FFXI has a lot more starting zones that WOW does,so again no crowded zones in Wow seems sketchy.
What is more important is that when i rejoined FFXI i actually found a LOT more noob players than in WOW,i saw only about 5-7 players in a whole week in WOW,that is not showing much growth for a game that claims such high numbers.So we have the exact same millions still playing? I no for a fact that is not true,so go figure how they maintain the exact same numbers lol,again VERY sketchy.Let's not forget that Blizzard has been caught in the past for manipulating books,nice that a couple employees took the fall for the mighty giant,otherwise we might not see Blizzard today,since they were trying to sell at the time,hence why the fake book work.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Wow, it's even worse than I thought. You think because the dungeon finder took some time to pop that they are fudging the numbers. It does make you look a little simple when you can't understand that correlating a games overall subscription numbers and your ability to get a dungeon to pop is not logical.
Let's see ... WOW has around 90+ dungeons now and you have to wait .... a full 10 minutes as dps, 2 minutes as healing and 20 seconds as Tank to ... run ANY of those dungeons (from level 15 to 80, heroic or not ...) at any time ...
And you complain ? I hope some other MMORPG players read this and compare things
)))
The really backwards thing about that guys analysis is that the DPS have to wait because THERE ARE TOO MANY DPS that are playing.
I'm not really interested in getting into a slanging match with someone who obviously wants an arguement . I called you out on the fact you'd not obviously misread what I'd said simple as that . I'm not going to let it spiral to the point where it gets to the point I have to evoke Godwins law .
That, or your analysis is ridiculous. You are using your experience with the cross realm dungeon finder and your visual count of a medium server to support the idea that blizzard is fudging the numbers.
Good luck with that.
So the 1.2 billion dollars yearly income of the MMORPG part mentioned in Blizzard's audited financial reports (by some doubtful editors like Deutsche Bank and Co) is ... "sketchy".
And you "no" (sic) for a fact it is not true...
Right: so perhaps they "print" that money or perhaps Blizzard is into some illegal Columbian drugs dealing ?
Or - who knows - just perphaps they DO rake in those 1.2 billion dollars per year from subscriptions (9% in China) and selling their MMORPG product.
Seriously: Blizzard is on its way to beat their previous financial records for 6 years in a row now, but you "no" it is not true ...
How much credit would that get you outside of this forum where such people get 5 stars ?
It is not hard to understand, pay by the hour is not a subscription. Tell me whoelse in the world considerds pay by the hour a subscription plan ? Nobody except Blizzards's spin on the word subscription . It fits more in the category of microtransaction than anything else the way Asia has to pay.