WoW could have 40 million and I wouldnt give a shit.
I would still play what i play.
Well of course. But what blows my mind is why people can't accept that 12 million people like to play WoW? I mean who gives a rat's behind either way?
The only reason the OP cares is because the WoW fan bots on this forum constantly bring up the sub number argument when discussing the quality of mmos.
Considering that WoW has what 8 million of those subs in Asia? the OPs point is valid. Even more valid when you read into how they count those subs (if you spent $1 on WoW in a month you're counted).
I honestly think we shouldnt care... but i get where he's coming from.
Why does anyone care what number a MMO gets to brag about? If you have fun with the game, play it. The only way to know if you truly will have fun with the game is to actually play it. Subscription number bragging won't tell you if the game is fun for YOU. That's why almost every MMO has some sort of free trial period.
Who said anything about making Asia out to be a 3rd class citizen ? Nobody except you mentioned it nor has anyone implied that. Subscribe by the hour ? Some kind of new concept or is it just a spin on definitons. As long as I have been alive and been doing business I never ever heard anyone using a "subscribe by the hour subscription plan".....
I like how you skip right over the post that shows you proof that they pay for their time in advance like a subscription/prepaid card and jump right on Daff for insinuating that you view the chinese as 3rd class citizens. Nice deflect. Regardless of how you may view hourly subscriptions (which I showed you was NOT really the case as they buy cards with well more than an hour of gametime), the point is they are subscribers and they are actively playing, hence they count.
Now if you really want to get into a discussion about how silly a hourly subscription sounds then be prepared to understand that a subscription by definition is: a business model where a customer must pay a subscription price to have access to the product/service.
And since they are paying to have access, they in turn are subscribers. Doesn't matter if it's 1 hour , 1 month, 1 year or 1 lifetime (as in lifetime subs). Doesn't matter if it's subcribing is periodic or automatic. Stop trying to debunk the undebunkable. You pay, you use, you re-up and ultimately you are subscribing.
I think the blue says it all. The rest of your argument is spot on too.
The OP just wants to get the thread going. He has a clear hidden agenda. And he even succeeds to bring in the usual trash talkers.
Apparently these people have a life duty: tell everyone WOW is not the most succesful MMO ever released.
Tell that to Morhaime: he's already counting the 7 billion dollar record this game brought in for the company that supported PC games against the invasion of the body snatching consoles..
Who said anything about making Asia out to be a 3rd class citizen ? Nobody except you mentioned it nor has anyone implied that. Subscribe by the hour ? Some kind of new concept or is it just a spin on definitons. As long as I have been alive and been doing business I never ever heard anyone using a "subscribe by the hour subscription plan". I'm not looking at it with a closed mind. I'm looking at it from what people have been doing for years until Blizzard decided to add to the definition of what a subscription plan consists of. Subscribing by the hour is one of the most dumbest misconceptions I have ever heard of. The next time you are out int he real world and want to subscribe to something ask companies like cablevision, pc gamer magazine, the phone bill company or your local car deal if they let you subscribe by the hour. Though if some choose to live in fantasy land and not use common sense then by all means.
... but you are being closed minded about what a subscriber is, because you are judging it by your experiences/culture and dismissing anything that doesn't conform to your views as somehow not counting. As if millions of players paying money for access to the game in predetermined periods of time just like you are somehow not worthy of being counted as you are.
Believe it or not, there was a time that online games were run only on a per hour basis. Would you say those games had no subscribers? That would be like saying boost mobile has no subscribers at all. ( I think they are only pay as you go?).
::edit:: I'm not saying this to insult you or make an overall judgement of you. Just on this one issue I don't think you are being open minded about the specifics outside your own preconceptions.
I think the blue says it all. The rest of your argument is spot on too.
The OP just wants to get the thread going. He has a clear hidden agenda.
If his agenda is getting a bunch of people to believe that WoW is not the largest subscription MMORPG by far in the world, then he has utterly failed. All this thread does is reinforce how ridiculously high their numbers really are. It doesn't matter if you like the game or hate it, it curbstomps other games subscription numbers into the ground. This thread will only serve to reinforce that idea in the end.
The only reason the OP cares is because the WoW fan bots on this forum constantly bring up the sub number argument when discussing the quality of mmos.
Considering that WoW has what 8 million of those subs in Asia? the OPs point is valid. Even more valid when you read into how they count those subs (if you spent $1 on WoW in a month you're counted).
I honestly think we shouldnt care... but i get where he's coming from.
The 12 million subs argument is a naturalistic fallacy and is usually easy to disregard as it represents an incorrect reasoning.
The only reason the OP cares is because the WoW fan bots on this forum constantly bring up the sub number argument when discussing the quality of mmos.
Considering that WoW has what 8 million of those subs in Asia? the OPs point is valid. Even more valid when you read into how they count those subs (if you spent $1 on WoW in a month you're counted).
I honestly think we shouldnt care... but i get where he's coming from.
The 12 million subs argument is a naturalistic fallacy and is usually easy to disregard as it represents an incorrect reasoning.
Definitely.
If this thread was an attempt at debunking the argument that 12 million people can't be wrong (which is what Rockgod is getting at), then this thread did it wrong. However, I doubt that Rockgod is correct in his assessment. It sounds likely that Rockgod just came up with his own reason why WoWs numbers are important and figured that's why the OP cares so much.
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
WoW could have 40 million and I wouldnt give a shit.
I would still play what i play.
Well of course. But what blows my mind is why people can't accept that 12 million people like to play WoW? I mean who gives a rat's behind either way?
The only reason the OP cares is because the WoW fan bots on this forum constantly bring up the sub number argument when discussing the quality of mmos.
Considering that WoW has what 8 million of those subs in Asia? the OPs point is valid. Even more valid when you read into how they count those subs (if you spent $1 on WoW in a month you're counted).
I honestly think we shouldnt care... but i get where he's coming from.
Yeah you get where he's coming from because you're drinkin the same kool-aid...we know we know. And so what if they have 8 million asian players. I hope to god you're not trying to insinuate that it means they are all gold farmers. Because I already explained this in a previous post. Actual gold farmers aren't marketing their services to their own players because their own players cannot afford such luxuries as it is.
Well more than 90% of gold farmers are playing on US and EU servers because that's where the money is made. You cannot transfer gold between CN, EU and US servers. So if you're trying to deflate the weight of having 8 million players just because they are from asia, you failed.
Also it mnatters not what they pay because even if they paid 1 dollar an hour, it's a luxury nonetheless. A small amount of money from a small income to begin with. And we've all heard of chinese sweatshops. So don't think for a minute that they all earn thousand dollar paychecks and pay cheap sub rates.
As a final note, I don't know how other old timers feel about this but it urks me when "careless" posters could care less about a game, but cannot for the life of them pass up the chance to chime in on something so trivial in their lives. So I try to bring balance to the equation. Not in a fanatical way, but a commonsense and logical one.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Good effort of trying to get a point across OP, but I've learned from reading game site forums that WoW fans don't care. To them Blizzard can do no wrong, they can go to a F2P model and still count everyone as monthly subscribers and the fanboi's will say it's valid. But this is a one way Blizzard only deal, if it was a different game, they would have a different opinion on the subject.
Lets say for the sake of argument that sw:tor is a monster success and eventually passes WoW's 12 million sub number. How quickly do you think these fanboi's would change their minds and say "well asia has a pay by hour system so those don't count as subs". And mark my words if it plays out like that, they will say exactly that and defend it till the end.
Then again i think if sw:tor is a success, the WoW crowd will flock to it because it's popular and people want to play whats popular and be where the biggest audience is.
Hell if you want to say a pay by the hour system=monthly sub, you may as well count F2P players as monthly subs too since they pay way more a month then a regular monthly subscriber does lol. And if that was the case, then there are way more games out there that have a bigger player base then WoW.
Anyways, again OP, nice effort, but WoW fans will always turn a blind eye to reality.
no way wow has 12 million subs i played it for a while and me my whole guild got bored and left my oppinion is i think wow counts its active subs and all the subs it has lost since the game began noone i knew atleast was happy with the game and noone stayed so seriously 12million lol my arse
Hell if you want to say a pay by the hour system=monthly sub, you may as well count F2P players as monthly subs too since they pay way more a month then a regular monthly subscriber does lol. And if that was the case, then there are way more games out there that have a bigger player base then WoW.
You don't get it. It's not that it's pay by the hour. It's that if someone hasn't paid by the hour in the last 30 days, they don't get counted as a sub.
Blizzard doesn't count them as a "monthly sub." They count them as a "subscription." And they limit the length of time they count someone by 30 days to reduce bloat and generally fake numbers.
The Blizzard haters are unable to look at the situation logically and understand that an hourly subscription is indeed a subscription. There is something in their head that is just so against what they do, that they are unable to see anything good about them. Anyways, nice effort, but WoW haters will always turn a blind eye to reality. Are those three sentences pretty much the opposite of what you said and hold equal weight?
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
)): This year the end result of the mmorpg part of Blizzard will clock in at ... 1.3 billion dollars yearly revenu spread over all systems. Get over it for once.
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Why is a monthly sub not considered a micro transaction?
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
With my pre paid (fixed amount) card I can access all of their services. So I am an active member of their services just like anyone else who uses another subscription based method.
A microtransaction has nothing to do with it.
Am I or am I not a member of that paid network? Of course. Blizzard even mentions a condition to it: 30 days.
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Why is a monthly sub not considered a micro transaction?
Why is the f2p business model not counted as subscriptions even if you pay $100.00 a month for cosmetic items ?
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Why is a monthly sub not considered a micro transaction?
Why is the f2p business model not counted as subscriptions even if you pay $100.00 a month for cosmetic items ?
Because you are able to play the game without spending $100.
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Sparkling ponies and vanity pets are micro-transactions whereas buying game time, regardless of increment, is required to derive any value from those micro-transactions.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Because a MICROtransaction is just that. A small one time transaction. A subscription is a payment for service that last for an allotted amount of time. Whether that's 30 minutes or 300 minutes. You can prepay for that service or you can pay when the allotted time has expired. Either automatically or periodically. Blizzard counts prepaid cards a.k.a. subscription cards. Just because one region says their subscriptions have to be broken down by the hour and ours is by the month doesn't make it any less of a subscription.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Those cards are still being projected by the hour not by the days like normal pre-paid cards work. Some can rant and whine all they want about it but the fact is that no place in the world does a "subscription by the hour". Though honestly I'm tired of talking about it, soem fanbois will always see through the rose-colored glassed Blizzard made them pay for.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
))
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Because a MICROtransaction is just that. A small one time transaction. A subscription is a payment for service that last for an allotted amount of time. Whether that's 30 minutes or 300 minutes. You can prepay for that service or you can pay when the allotted time has expired. Either automatically or periodically. Blizzard counts prepaid cards a.k.a. subscription cards. Just because one region says their subscriptions have to be broken down by the hour and ours is by the month doesn't make it any less of a subscription.
Exactly paying for prepaid cards are subscriptions. Instead of using a debt or credit card you use the prepaid card which you bought.
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Sparkling ponies and vanity pets are micro-transactions whereas buying game time, regardless of increment, is required to derive any value from those micro-transactions.
So game time is not considered a virtual item ? Since when ?
So game time is not considered a virtual item ? Since when ?
No, access for a specified time is a very real commodity. A vanity pet or mount is something generated on demand with no real manifestation.
If you don't believe time is real then I really don't see where this conversation can go. Don't get me wrong, there is probably a great philosophical debate in there and, undoubtedly someone will bring up String Theory, but I'm not sure it'd result in any progress on the WoW sub portion of he conversation.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Comments
The only reason the OP cares is because the WoW fan bots on this forum constantly bring up the sub number argument when discussing the quality of mmos.
Considering that WoW has what 8 million of those subs in Asia? the OPs point is valid. Even more valid when you read into how they count those subs (if you spent $1 on WoW in a month you're counted).
I honestly think we shouldnt care... but i get where he's coming from.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Why does anyone care what number a MMO gets to brag about? If you have fun with the game, play it. The only way to know if you truly will have fun with the game is to actually play it. Subscription number bragging won't tell you if the game is fun for YOU. That's why almost every MMO has some sort of free trial period.
I think the blue says it all. The rest of your argument is spot on too.
The OP just wants to get the thread going. He has a clear hidden agenda. And he even succeeds to bring in the usual trash talkers.
Apparently these people have a life duty: tell everyone WOW is not the most succesful MMO ever released.
Tell that to Morhaime: he's already counting the 7 billion dollar record this game brought in for the company that supported PC games against the invasion of the body snatching consoles..
Blablabla MacDonald incoming post....
... but you are being closed minded about what a subscriber is, because you are judging it by your experiences/culture and dismissing anything that doesn't conform to your views as somehow not counting. As if millions of players paying money for access to the game in predetermined periods of time just like you are somehow not worthy of being counted as you are.
Believe it or not, there was a time that online games were run only on a per hour basis. Would you say those games had no subscribers? That would be like saying boost mobile has no subscribers at all. ( I think they are only pay as you go?).
::edit:: I'm not saying this to insult you or make an overall judgement of you. Just on this one issue I don't think you are being open minded about the specifics outside your own preconceptions.
If his agenda is getting a bunch of people to believe that WoW is not the largest subscription MMORPG by far in the world, then he has utterly failed. All this thread does is reinforce how ridiculously high their numbers really are. It doesn't matter if you like the game or hate it, it curbstomps other games subscription numbers into the ground. This thread will only serve to reinforce that idea in the end.
The 12 million subs argument is a naturalistic fallacy and is usually easy to disregard as it represents an incorrect reasoning.
Definitely.
If this thread was an attempt at debunking the argument that 12 million people can't be wrong (which is what Rockgod is getting at), then this thread did it wrong. However, I doubt that Rockgod is correct in his assessment. It sounds likely that Rockgod just came up with his own reason why WoWs numbers are important and figured that's why the OP cares so much.
Blizzard does subscription by the hour in China.
Things are just flying over your head.
Yeah you get where he's coming from because you're drinkin the same kool-aid...we know we know. And so what if they have 8 million asian players. I hope to god you're not trying to insinuate that it means they are all gold farmers. Because I already explained this in a previous post. Actual gold farmers aren't marketing their services to their own players because their own players cannot afford such luxuries as it is.
Well more than 90% of gold farmers are playing on US and EU servers because that's where the money is made. You cannot transfer gold between CN, EU and US servers. So if you're trying to deflate the weight of having 8 million players just because they are from asia, you failed.
Also it mnatters not what they pay because even if they paid 1 dollar an hour, it's a luxury nonetheless. A small amount of money from a small income to begin with. And we've all heard of chinese sweatshops. So don't think for a minute that they all earn thousand dollar paychecks and pay cheap sub rates.
As a final note, I don't know how other old timers feel about this but it urks me when "careless" posters could care less about a game, but cannot for the life of them pass up the chance to chime in on something so trivial in their lives. So I try to bring balance to the equation. Not in a fanatical way, but a commonsense and logical one.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Good effort of trying to get a point across OP, but I've learned from reading game site forums that WoW fans don't care. To them Blizzard can do no wrong, they can go to a F2P model and still count everyone as monthly subscribers and the fanboi's will say it's valid. But this is a one way Blizzard only deal, if it was a different game, they would have a different opinion on the subject.
Lets say for the sake of argument that sw:tor is a monster success and eventually passes WoW's 12 million sub number. How quickly do you think these fanboi's would change their minds and say "well asia has a pay by hour system so those don't count as subs". And mark my words if it plays out like that, they will say exactly that and defend it till the end.
Then again i think if sw:tor is a success, the WoW crowd will flock to it because it's popular and people want to play whats popular and be where the biggest audience is.
Hell if you want to say a pay by the hour system=monthly sub, you may as well count F2P players as monthly subs too since they pay way more a month then a regular monthly subscriber does lol. And if that was the case, then there are way more games out there that have a bigger player base then WoW.
Anyways, again OP, nice effort, but WoW fans will always turn a blind eye to reality.
no way wow has 12 million subs i played it for a while and me my whole guild got bored and left my oppinion is i think wow counts its active subs and all the subs it has lost since the game began noone i knew atleast was happy with the game and noone stayed so seriously 12million lol my arse
You don't get it. It's not that it's pay by the hour. It's that if someone hasn't paid by the hour in the last 30 days, they don't get counted as a sub.
Blizzard doesn't count them as a "monthly sub." They count them as a "subscription." And they limit the length of time they count someone by 30 days to reduce bloat and generally fake numbers.
The Blizzard haters are unable to look at the situation logically and understand that an hourly subscription is indeed a subscription. There is something in their head that is just so against what they do, that they are unable to see anything good about them. Anyways, nice effort, but WoW haters will always turn a blind eye to reality. Are those three sentences pretty much the opposite of what you said and hold equal weight?
@ Saint
Well I'll write to my cell phone company then, that I no longer count as one of their clients.
.... because I pay per minute access to them.
This thread gets better by the ... second. Compare the China system as some of our cell phone systems if you will:
You buy a card: it deducts per minute you are on line.
It is pre paid, you access the network in the last 30 days and then you are counted to an active member of the network.
Lets cut out the baiting. Discuss the topic, dont attack another user.
How is that even considered a subscription compared to what a microtransaction is ?
Why is a monthly sub not considered a micro transaction?
With my pre paid (fixed amount) card I can access all of their services. So I am an active member of their services just like anyone else who uses another subscription based method.
A microtransaction has nothing to do with it.
Am I or am I not a member of that paid network? Of course. Blizzard even mentions a condition to it: 30 days.
Why is the f2p business model not counted as subscriptions even if you pay $100.00 a month for cosmetic items ?
Because you are able to play the game without spending $100.
Sparkling ponies and vanity pets are micro-transactions whereas buying game time, regardless of increment, is required to derive any value from those micro-transactions.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Because a MICROtransaction is just that. A small one time transaction. A subscription is a payment for service that last for an allotted amount of time. Whether that's 30 minutes or 300 minutes. You can prepay for that service or you can pay when the allotted time has expired. Either automatically or periodically. Blizzard counts prepaid cards a.k.a. subscription cards. Just because one region says their subscriptions have to be broken down by the hour and ours is by the month doesn't make it any less of a subscription.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Exactly paying for prepaid cards are subscriptions. Instead of using a debt or credit card you use the prepaid card which you bought.
So game time is not considered a virtual item ? Since when ?
No, access for a specified time is a very real commodity. A vanity pet or mount is something generated on demand with no real manifestation.
If you don't believe time is real then I really don't see where this conversation can go. Don't get me wrong, there is probably a great philosophical debate in there and, undoubtedly someone will bring up String Theory, but I'm not sure it'd result in any progress on the WoW sub portion of he conversation.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
And you pay 15$ for a month of unlimited game time