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Anyone else sick of tank/heal/dps?
ww99w
Member UncommonPosts: 12
I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
Comments
man u way too wrong . Tank / Heal / DPS is teamplay and the best team play wins .
In the beginning, there were three: Fighting Man, Cleric, and Magic-User.
This is no excuse for poorly designed mob AI or encounters in games.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Think of a different strategem and make it work. Would be great to see if you can. For some reason, the holy trinity can't be broken. To really think about it, there should be roles or no roles. I think you'd have a lot of balancing issues if there was a medium. So either play a game with no roles or design roles that are not tank, healer and dps.
It takes skill to tank, and it takes skill to heal, but any noob can dps which is why dps classes are so popular. Having problems finding a healer? Ever consider sucking it up and playing one? Very few people want to tank or heal because the team depends on them and if something goes wrong everybody blames them. And boy can those dps noobs whine. They have the easiest job, they can screw up and no one notices, yet they are the first to complain if they don't get healed fast enough or catch agro.
Without the trinity it's chaos. Nothing but a bunch of noobs whacking away at a bee hive with sticks.
the only reason i like it is because it gives diversity. i want the classes to be different. that makes the game far more interesting compared to a game where everyone can do everything and there are just clones everywhere...
I like competitive 1v1 pvp which is the most skill based pvp and non-forgiving pvp that exists compared to the dumb rock paper scissors mechanics that gives the noobs the ability to win another player no matter their skill and only because they are the counter class. I dont like what companies do, keep noobs and skilles player happy so they can keep paying them in the expense of real skill based pvp since if the pvp was skill based the majority would feel" oh i suck why should i keep playing that game" and leave
Yes, I'm tired of the usual tank, healer, damage dealer setup. And if you are, too, then try playing games that don't use it. There are quite a few if you look for them.
i cant deny the fact that D2 was always fun for me and i would still play it with people if i found some group to play it with. i have to say that im not yet sick of the tank/hea/dps system even though i wouldnt mind seeing some game try some sort of variation from that. i played few years back RF online which was horrible game but that game totally tossed healers away like D2 what made the game only have health postions as only option to heal yourself .. the "wilderness" where you could go head on with other factions ..battle was won who had more potions and outburst damage which was kinda annoying
i guess guild wars 2 is trying to do something about this normal tank/heal/dps concept by throwing away the holy trinity. there might be some other games that try to atleast some extent to try some variation to this matter too but there aint many. maybe you should check out GW2 when it comes... or you could wait for Diablo 3 which i have set my eyes on too even though its not a mmo heheh
I actually like the holy trinity.
What i don't like is that tanks do same dps as an actual dps class, healer doing same dps as dps class and so on.
I would like a TANK to be a real tank that would be able to take LOTS of damage. An armored tower. But low dps.
DPS class to be huge dps, but really vulnerable.
Healer to be able to heal a LOT and have quite low damage output..
In my ideal game no class would be able to kill a tank fast. He should be tough mofo with thick armor and tons of hp.
Tank, on the other hand, couldn't kill another class fast, because he has quite low damage.
Tank should be there for taking damage, healers for healing, crowd control for.. you know, doing the crowd control, slowers or any kind of debuffers for debuffing the mob.
Now everyone in the group just rushes and competes who tops the dps parse and that is just wrong.
I'm surprised out of 10 posts above there was only once mention of Guild Wars 2.
Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 period.
I think Guild Wars 2 is THE INNOVATION of ALL MMOs!!!
I know i'm way too excited!
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
So I just had an idea. If you took like 30 heroes out of DOTA ignoring some of the heroes that wont work in an MMO format. Give all of them a couple more skills each and dump them all into an MMO with instances and a persistent world. Add in the usual bunch of grinding of lame quests of kill x enemies, loot x items (but that is another story). And I guarantee you will have a very insane MMO.
Imagine a raid group of 30+ people with all those different skills. Now you will have utter chaos and destruction. Of course you will probably need a computer which will make your wallet choke you to death in the middle of the night...
but what do people think of that?
I kinda agree from a player standpoint, but if you look at it from a game devs standpoint its really hard to balance a game if every class can do everything by itself.
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."
-Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
I'm not sure what you exactly mean, but I think there's nothing wrong with damage dealer, tank and healer. The problem is with the designers, developers not hybridizating things enough, or not leaving space for more detailed specialization. You are -pretty much- going to be damage dealer, tank or healer anyway, in the end of the day, no matter how the specialization system works. Soloing is different, while soloing you have to deal with all these three. The more people are involved, the morespecialized your role is bound to be. There is not much room for hybridization in huge raids or whatever.
Even in EVE you have these same roles, perhaps you are able to specialize and hybridisize more, by having incresed damage output on a support ship for example. There's just more detailed adjustment, compared to the obvious DD, tank, healer system, like in WoW or such. WoW has a lot of hybridization too, best example being discipline priest, that actually dishes out some decent damage while healing. That can also easily become overpowered, that's why discipline priest should have 50% (or 70 & 30% or w/e) performance in each role, compared to dedicated damage dealers and healers.
Hockey isn't crap because there's goal keepers, defenders and attackers, that's how it works. Goalkeeper can also make a goal sometimes and attacker can defend, similarly you can see damage dealers sometimes helping in healing, or whatever, in MMORPG's. So there's not really a problem. Play EVE, Fallen Earth, Ryzom or so, if you want to have more detailed specialization. It's not going to completely remove the "dd, tank, healer system", though, not at all.
Diablo is different, it's hardly a multiplayer game in the sense, that players aren't there to take a specific role, that works in harmony with the others. There's no healers in Diablo and if I remember right, there's no tanks either. So there's just everyone dishing damage out like crazy and kiting the mobs, who ever happens to have aggro. Hypothetically speaking, I don't remember how Diablo exactly works. That works too, but it's more of a solo game and the multiplayer part lacks dimension. MMORPG's are roleplaying games, as such they have roles, if that isn't obvious enough. Diablo is not a roleplaying game, but rather a bastardization of one, or better yet, an action game with very slight roleplaying elements.
What MMORPG's could have more are dedicated buffer and debuffer classes and some classes, that help other to gain resources in one way or another as main role. They are often seen as boring (although latter I haven't seen in any game), but that is just a question of innovative game design.
Guild Wars 2.
This is not a game.
To tackle the problem of the holy trinity you first have to understand the problem of group, solo and PvP dynamics. Traditionally 2 of the HT roles are viable options within the context of a group or even some PvP situations, but they sorely lack in the solo situation. You know that situation where 75% of your players find themselves in at one point or another. You're coming across a quest where DPSers can handle solo, tanks can handle with time solo and healers cannot tackle at all solo.
This ties in directly with one of the first things players ask when coming into a new mmo: Which class can solo the best? Now you can handle this in one of 3 ways:
Give all classes the ability to dps with other benefits to group dynamics
Give all classes a viable pet system to fill in the blank when soloing
Give all classes the ability to self sustain their own existance during group/solo/PvP encounters
Number 1 has been seen in games like Vindictus, Diablo and other action mmo hybrids
Number 2 has seen limited success in some mmos, but will see a big leap with SWTOR coming
Number 3 is coming in the form of healer-less classes in GW2
Which option is best for casual or solo prone gamers? Who knows. I personally would like to see something like Vindictus like raid encounters where secondary skills/equipment like snares, spears, bombs and the environment comes into play when successfully tackling a raid boss.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
^Is the primary reason I became interested in that game. These were my simple observations of some/a lot of mmos:
1. AI mobs: getting sucked into attacking a bad choice of target = meat.
2. Healers topping up health bars a poor excuse for feedback on hits given/received; blunting satisfaction for skills used/chosen.
3. Restricted roles depending on context eg ranged dps being useless in dungeons compared to tank/healer; tank being useless in keeps being sieged.
4. Group teamwork sometimes fun co-op eg structured discipline and communication etc but often times very static gameplay.
5. PvP assured victory if team composition of classes in pugs is skewed; especially.
6. Mass PvP aoe healing neutralizing aoe damage when imo damage > healing to balance zerg strategy eg killing fields.
7. Trinity classes discourage players to try other types of classes because their gameplay style is already prescribed so any flavor differences are vastly overshadowed.
These were immediately evident and took brief observation of the Holy Trinity style of game play. They are not game-breaking, do not preclude fun gameplay or additional variety but they do cause a lot of problems for players that they could do without.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The one thing cox did right for a teaming mmorpg, no real holy trinity only sterotyping others.
The no tank/dps/healer thing was done back in 1999 by a game called Asherons Call. and it was one of the best MMOs ever made.
Rift http://www.riftgame.com/en/
I love clear and defined roles, instead of everybody being some form of dps. That's not diversity, that's doing the exact same thing as the player next to you, just with different particle effects
I mean on one hand people are complaining about the the genre being dumbed down and then I see posts like these
original guild war actually did something like that.
Give you a empty shell and you put in 8 skill of your choice from a few hundred choice
I hate the typical tank/heal/dps model until I play a game that doesn’t have it. Games that have heals for all turns into everyone soloing wich becomes incredibly boring to me and I soon find myself missing the tank/heal/dps model.
I absolutely despise the holy trinity. I wish it would just die a horrible death.
The biggest problem with not having the holy trinity is that you really lose diversity instead of gaining it. What would end up happening if everyone could tank/dps/heal is clones of the most successful build. Roles are improtant and I am not sick of the holy trinity because it invites different play stlyes with each role.
threat moves like taunt is such lazy design, just horrible. If you can tank by utlizing body blocking, kiting, and movement then fine. But to spam one button to get something to attack you? Just horrible.
I just wanted to point out one thing in the red part. notice how that holy trinity makes you rely on others? Isn't that suppose to be the point of an MMO to need to rely on others so that way you have to interact with the people in that world? I know the point your trying to make is that some classes are not fun to play therefore the trinity should be removed
However i think the problem lies in where the yellow is. It's not the trinity that may be the problem but how the class is designed, some people simply don't find the cleric fun and therefore play another class. However if you were to improve the clerics fighting ability or make them more interactive in the fight, then i could see more people playing them.
Take ToR (yes i had to do it GW2 peeps :P ) they made the cleric type class able to also do some CC and DPS, thus making it more attractive. If this works, we will have to see, but i'm not so much sure its the holy trinity itself that is the problem but how certain classes are implemented are the problem.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.