I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
YEAH! Get rid of all the systems that are in place to force grouping, amirite? I mean, if every class in a MMO is capable of soloing everything, surely people would group still. I suppose they could add harder guys, that can't be solo'd, forcing people to group, and then have absolutely no need to work as a cohesive team to achieve the goal of the particular instance/whatever they are doing.
Face it, in MMO's (Which Diablo 2 isn't, so stop comparing a SP game with online capability to MMO games that are designed to facilitate human interaction and cooperation.) it is vital to have such systems in place.
I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
YEAH! Get rid of all the systems that are in place to force grouping, amirite? I mean, if every class in a MMO is capable of soloing everything, surely people would group still. I suppose they could add harder guys, that can't be solo'd, forcing people to group, and then have absolutely no need to work as a cohesive team to achieve the goal of the particular instance/whatever they are doing.
Face it, in MMO's (Which Diablo 2 isn't, so stop comparing a SP game with online capability to MMO games that are designed to facilitate human interaction and cooperation.) it is vital to have such systems in place.
man u way too wrong . Tank / Heal / DPS is teamplay and the best team play wins .
This
The Holy Trinity is the essence of the real MMORPG, because it assign a Role to the player (RPG = ROLE Play Games)
Without the Trinity there are no ROLES to play
Never table top gamed I take it? Roleplaying is not about being part of the 'trinity' (which in eq1 was cleric, warrior, enchanter just as a heads up.) it's about playing the role of an adventurer. A hero. Pick up a book, read it. It really, when talking about roleplaying, has nothing to do with being a class what so ever. You kids and your crazy ideas. Go back to UO for instance, and that really is the first well acknowledged MMORPG... let me know how it fits your ideas of roles of dps, tank, healer... or ac1... eq1... etc.
The "trinity" is just minimum numbers for maximum effectiveness, its the number crunchers game. Nothing wrong with that (we called that "power gaming" back in the day when doing table top, at the extreme end "min-maxing" and "munchkins"), but it has nothing to do with roleplaying what so ever.
Edit: I'll add, nor does most MMO games for that matter or single player rpg's... they just took the name because it was the closest analogy they could come up with.
Highlighting a point of emphasis which I agree with. It's only in the last couple of years that the "Trinity" gimmick has been pushed down the throats of the MMORPG genre. WoW's influence plays a big role in that with a bunch of companies thinking that is the only possible way to go.
But it wasn't like this all the time.
Like I said in my earlier reply to this thread, I just absolutely despised "Trinity" / Tank / Heal / DPS because it is so limiting in gameplay.
In this system, you can look at a player character, for instance, and see they're a Rogue. You know automatically what they're about, what they're good at, what they can't do, what skills they ALL have, and not to mention, especially in PvP, what types of actions they all tend to do.
Think about that. You can simply look at a person's character, see their class name (or outright guess it from the kind of armor and weapons they're using), and know practically everything about their character. Just from a cursory glance!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I for one am getting tired of the holy trinity. but not because its a 'fail' system, but becasue no one seems to make it right. I have a issue with this when it comes to logic and when things bother me.. well u get the idea. The tank... yes this is understandable, but mashing a taunt button is just a half ass way of keeping agro. How about actualy making it so that mob a need to get threw player a (the tank) phyiscly before getting to player b? its simple colision which you can expand appon. and what would this lead to? actual fights where the tank class is almost renderd 100% in pvp in most games, would also make things more chalengeing while running your dungions.. and more tanks would be played AND wanted/needed for inovative instances.. WHICH brings me to a healer.. You know i never realy was a fan of this class.. while in fantisy mmo's a healer type class hass been needed in current systems.. buy logicly, a healer should be support.. not the only thing they do is heal. Keeping the old system on this restricts innovation for dungions, and healers tend to be op in pvp! Solution? well i think gw2 (god i cant wait for this game) has this coverd..but other then the way they are handleing it.. make that healer be SUPPORT like they realy are.. give some cc take away some healing power and give low-moderate dps and nothing more. I do mean take away alot of their healing power. Small hots and minor heals, not click 1 button wait 3 seconds and bam there 999999999 health back like most games are like anymore. That leaves dps for the trinity, realy nothing much wrong with this here.. but it could be expanded, more ways of dpsing then just dot dot, pew pew, or boom boom..
So anyway, if dont correctly the whole trinity could work realy well, but realy i have not seen ONE game do it right.. ever.. not once (yes im expecting some big flames for that, dont bother). But realy this isent the only thing plagueing mmos.. Whate ver happend to actual traps?? aka players not paying attention go splat before they realy get anywhere in dungeion.. how about some real world traps? Better yet how about named mobs that have the same skill sets available that YOU do. Also how about real cooperative gameplay. Where players literaly have to work together to get threw the game safely. (little example, but i remember a dungeion in aoc, black somethign that when goign threw there was a hall of fire,and there were pedastools that you needed to stand on on either side of the hall, and the other players runt hrew to the others so you could catch up. simple but u get the point). Also wtf happend to the element of supprise, where while adventureing threw a game the game can throw out something COMEPLTELY unexpected. for example your going threw the world, you find a odd tree with a whole underneath, u remove a gem. the ground shakes and you dont know what happend, but father threw the zone it weakens a seal and a ancient even gets released (lets say its a lvl 20 zone and the mob is level 30 and elite) that stars rampageing threw the area and killing unexpecting people).
All these thigns are problems with games anymore, and the inability to build a real set up the classes is just the tip of the mountion of crap anymore. oh and 1 more complaint! The whole 'puller' roler is compete bullshit. You should not be able to run up to a group of mobs, shoot 1 with an arrow and only that 1 comes.. if theres 10 mobs in an area close to eachother.. if you shoot 1.. all of his friends should come aswell. pulling mobs is completely illogical and is just a dulled version for people who can not play well, or are stupid enough to go near a pack of mobs alone when obviously they wouldent be able to hadnle it.. end..
just something to think about.. let the flameing begin and i know i typo alot... deal with it
I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
its not that they are predertimend classes, its the fact that devs lack the ingenuity to think up something more flexible and apealing to players.
for a long time ive always thought their should be no classes at all. instead you create your charecter from the feet up. once you have your charecter you then define him by actually playing the game and chooseing the types of skills he will use as you go and upgradeing his abilities by actually using them. also i think its about time they done away with levels. levels mean grinding and every one finds grinding boreing.
this sucks -
race -human
class - archer
its boreing and one tracked and the same all the way through the game.
i would rather have -
race - human
skills -
archery 0/250
sword 0/250
hammer 0/250
mace 0/250
light armour 0/250
medium armour 0/250
heavy armour 0/250
riding 0/250
armoured riding 0/250
mounted combat 0/250
wood cutting 0/250
wood turning 0/250
fletcher 0/250
smithy 0/250
armourer 0/250
weaponsmith 0/250
blacksmithing 0/250
and so on -
and to support this to prevent it from becoming a grind, the game would need some amazing content of vast proportions, like a seemingly limitless clothing and armour content. as well as some epic crafting and plenty of diffrent resource types which can be combined to make better resources, resourcs that must be processed and refined before use and the better the skill of the player the better the results.
they need to get rid of loot and put the power back into the hands of the players and the crafters out there.
i too hate tanks dps ranged nukers and healers, this makes games dull and linear, every one knows how to make a nuker every one knows how to make a tank, there is no challenege in games classes today, they are too easy to make.
i want to be able to experiement and make something unique that no one else has or will ever think of. i want to create my own class based of what skills and abilities i choose for him.
but no all we will get are more and more crappy wow clones. its a sad sad time for mmo games.
I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
its not that they are predertimend classes, its the fact that devs lack the ingenuity to think up something more flexible and apealing to players.
for a long time ive always thought their should be no classes at all. instead you create your charecter from the feet up. once you have your charecter you then define him by actually playing the game and chooseing the types of skills he will use as you go and upgradeing his abilities by actually using them. also i think its about time they done away with levels. levels mean grinding and every one finds grinding boreing.
this sucks -
race -human
class - archer
its boreing and one tracked and the same all the way through the game.
i would rather have -
race - human
skills -
archery 0/250
sword 0/250
hammer 0/250
mace 0/250
Weapon skills, each one defines either a close or long range combat.
light armour 0/250
medium armour 0/250
heavy armour 0/250
armor type defines class. light is squishy (gets killed fast) medium is hybrid and heavy will be the tank
riding 0/250
armoured riding 0/250
mounted combat 0/250
Mount skills, that would be interesting
wood cutting 0/250
wood turning 0/250
fletcher 0/250
smithy 0/250
armourer 0/250
weaponsmith 0/250
blacksmithing 0/250
All these are crafting skills that games already have, like wow and EQ2
and so on -
and to support this to prevent it from becoming a grind, the game would need some amazing content of vast proportions, like a seemingly limitless clothing and armour content. as well as some epic crafting and plenty of diffrent resource types which can be combined to make better resources, resourcs that must be processed and refined before use and the better the skill of the player the better the results.
they need to get rid of loot and put the power back into the hands of the players and the crafters out there.
i too hate tanks dps ranged nukers and healers, this makes games dull and linear, every one knows how to make a nuker every one knows how to make a tank, there is no challenege in games classes today, they are too easy to make.
i want to be able to experiement and make something unique that no one else has or will ever think of. i want to create my own class based of what skills and abilities i choose for him.
but no all we will get are more and more crappy wow clones. its a sad sad time for mmo games.
I understand the point of a classless system with just skills to make your character but theres also balancing issues and if everyone can max every skill then everyone will be the same thing, then it's just down to player skill, in which case the skills are a useless grind.
If you put limits on sklils then people will max one skill and thus turn themselves into a particular class (mostly the armor one)
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Weapon classes could be feature a variety of specialty classes and ranges, a-la Monster Hunter Frontier. While the game does not exist outside of Asia I am convinced that it has the best combat system for bosses in any MMO. Ultra specialized classes will not be necessary as gamers focus more on careful positioning, timing and communication. Games like WoW simply do not have enough combat depth to utilize this system but there are certainly others like Tera which are heading in that direction.
Vindictus (can't remember how that game is spelled) does that actually, well sorta. The biggest problem is lag. If you get lag in combat like that, your basically dead (MH usually allows you to get hit about 4 times from a monster before your dead). Whereas games like WoW can let you get even 10 seconds of lag and be fine because it knows exactly what should be happening at that point (auto attack)
Games are moving away from that with removing auto attack and making you dodge enemy blasts.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
its not that they are predertimend classes, its the fact that devs lack the ingenuity to think up something more flexible and apealing to players.
for a long time ive always thought their should be no classes at all. instead you create your charecter from the feet up. once you have your charecter you then define him by actually playing the game and chooseing the types of skills he will use as you go and upgradeing his abilities by actually using them. also i think its about time they done away with levels. levels mean grinding and every one finds grinding boreing.
this sucks -
race -human
class - archer
its boreing and one tracked and the same all the way through the game.
i would rather have -
race - human
skills -
archery 0/250
sword 0/250
hammer 0/250
mace 0/250
Weapon skills, each one defines either a close or long range combat.
light armour 0/250
medium armour 0/250
heavy armour 0/250
armor type defines class. light is squishy (gets killed fast) medium is hybrid and heavy will be the tank
riding 0/250
armoured riding 0/250
mounted combat 0/250
Mount skills, that would be interesting
wood cutting 0/250
wood turning 0/250
fletcher 0/250
smithy 0/250
armourer 0/250
weaponsmith 0/250
blacksmithing 0/250
All these are crafting skills that games already have, like wow and EQ2
and so on -
and to support this to prevent it from becoming a grind, the game would need some amazing content of vast proportions, like a seemingly limitless clothing and armour content. as well as some epic crafting and plenty of diffrent resource types which can be combined to make better resources, resourcs that must be processed and refined before use and the better the skill of the player the better the results.
they need to get rid of loot and put the power back into the hands of the players and the crafters out there.
i too hate tanks dps ranged nukers and healers, this makes games dull and linear, every one knows how to make a nuker every one knows how to make a tank, there is no challenege in games classes today, they are too easy to make.
i want to be able to experiement and make something unique that no one else has or will ever think of. i want to create my own class based of what skills and abilities i choose for him.
but no all we will get are more and more crappy wow clones. its a sad sad time for mmo games.
I understand the point of a classless system with just skills to make your character but theres also balancing issues and if everyone can max every skill then everyone will be the same thing, then it's just down to player skill, in which case the skills are a useless grind.
If you put limits on sklils then people will max one skill and thus turn themselves into a particular class (mostly the armor one)
i agree with you. the idea of 250 levels to each skill is that it would take a life time to level them all. also as you choose certain skill sets the system could lock out alternate skill sets permanently defineing your charecter. it would be a really slow grind too.
or better still no armour no skills
instead players cna learn usefull trades like weapon smith armourer builder and so on. maybe seige works and stuff. no actual skill training or leveling. every one starts on an even playing field and the game will then rely heavily on team work and other players.
but there are so many gamers out there now who know nothing but grinding levels and feeling like they achieved something.
they are oblivious to the fact they have achieved boredom once they max a charecter. in just about all games once you have best armour and finished all the quests there is pretty much no after game support for these players, instead they are left with nothing to do, they become bored and fed up. some will start over with a new class, but many just stop playing. the games have no fabric no end game purpose no real need to reach their ends, once you do its over, an mmo should never end!!
the pvp would be fully diverse and directional with blocking and so on. i.e. shield becoming something you actual have to point the right direction to get its benefits and actual aim your weapons to hit the target.
ok how about this -
instead of having the list above with 250 levels for each skill. how about having it where the items level upa s they are used so players can collect them. they would obviously need to take a long long time to max out. or even have it limitless. i dont know how it would work but i know how it may feel and play. their has to be some way for developers to give us something diffrent thats balanced and not dull like classes are.
eve online had a time based skill system, you had to buy the skill and then train them across real time. they messed it up when they stopped the training when subscriptions had ended, this just made people think the skill tree was designed to milk players of money over vast periods of time, i have to admit it kepr me paying and playing just so i could have my cap ship for a good 4 years across 3 accounts. but the thing with eve is, if you work at it the game is free to play because you can buy game time with ingame currency. i played my last 2 years of eve entirely for free.
but then its that old demon again, the oss up of who is in control of your charecters account, you or the game devs.
I think the game design of tanks heals and dps has been played out for too long. It is a very boring and uncreative way to design classes and gameplay. It makes players way too specialized and thus very dependent on the other roles. The main flaw is that some roles (mostly healer) are not very popular and is very difficult to find for a group . On the other hand dps roles seem to be most popular, and they have more trouble finding a spot in a group.
Diablo 2 was a game which did not utilize this system and I enjoyed the group combat very much. Everyone just focused on dealing damage, which ended up with utter destruction and undeniable fun. The diablo 2 classes can perform much better independently but each character still brings something to the table when in groups, such as buffs (barbarian warcries, paladin auras), crowd clearing abilities, or minions for meat shields.
So I say NO to a tank class that cannot tank anything without a healer, a healer who doesnt even attack the boss once, life leech which heals u for 10hp when you have over 2000hp.
its not that they are predertimend classes, its the fact that devs lack the ingenuity to think up something more flexible and apealing to players.
for a long time ive always thought their should be no classes at all. instead you create your charecter from the feet up. once you have your charecter you then define him by actually playing the game and chooseing the types of skills he will use as you go and upgradeing his abilities by actually using them. also i think its about time they done away with levels. levels mean grinding and every one finds grinding boreing.
this sucks -
race -human
class - archer
its boreing and one tracked and the same all the way through the game.
i would rather have -
race - human
skills -
archery 0/250
sword 0/250
hammer 0/250
mace 0/250
Weapon skills, each one defines either a close or long range combat.
light armour 0/250
medium armour 0/250
heavy armour 0/250
armor type defines class. light is squishy (gets killed fast) medium is hybrid and heavy will be the tank
riding 0/250
armoured riding 0/250
mounted combat 0/250
Mount skills, that would be interesting
wood cutting 0/250
wood turning 0/250
fletcher 0/250
smithy 0/250
armourer 0/250
weaponsmith 0/250
blacksmithing 0/250
All these are crafting skills that games already have, like wow and EQ2
and so on -
and to support this to prevent it from becoming a grind, the game would need some amazing content of vast proportions, like a seemingly limitless clothing and armour content. as well as some epic crafting and plenty of diffrent resource types which can be combined to make better resources, resourcs that must be processed and refined before use and the better the skill of the player the better the results.
they need to get rid of loot and put the power back into the hands of the players and the crafters out there.
i too hate tanks dps ranged nukers and healers, this makes games dull and linear, every one knows how to make a nuker every one knows how to make a tank, there is no challenege in games classes today, they are too easy to make.
i want to be able to experiement and make something unique that no one else has or will ever think of. i want to create my own class based of what skills and abilities i choose for him.
but no all we will get are more and more crappy wow clones. its a sad sad time for mmo games.
I understand the point of a classless system with just skills to make your character but theres also balancing issues and if everyone can max every skill then everyone will be the same thing, then it's just down to player skill, in which case the skills are a useless grind.
If you put limits on sklils then people will max one skill and thus turn themselves into a particular class (mostly the armor one)
And are there not serious balancing issues in Class + Level systems also? I recall quite vividly the constant cycle of Nerfs and Overempowerment devs do to even the "simpler to balance" Class + Level systems. In particular are ranged DPS classes when it involves PvP (devs HATE Archers and such despite implementing ranged combat / classes in their own game). Even with a simpler system, devs still had no clue in keeping things balanced or with definite pro's / con's between their dumbed down classes.
And the problem you give about people strengthening "a particular class" is a strongpoint about a Skillbased system. YOU build a mix of skills and proficiencies to suit your playstyle. As far as everyone gravitating towards heavy armors, have you ever known systems that had pro's / con's to that?
Heavy Armor: Very high physical protection; Bonus damage to a charge (due to mass of weight and throwing target off balance); Heavy weight; Much slower movement speed (definitely not the choice if you have to retreat); Poor choice for stealth; Fatigues player quickly in a hot, desert environment (think debuffs); Expensive to repair and maintain, esp. fancy heavy armors; Requires extensive facilities (a fully established smithy) to upkeep / repair high-end, fancy armors
Medium Armor: A compromise in weight & protection; Still confers a penalty to stealthy movements / abilities; Penalty to movement speed, but not as severe as wearing Heavy Armors; Heavier Medium Armors like Chainmail require extensive facilities such as a Smithy; Generally cheaper and easier to maintain in the field than Heavy Armor... less resources required to upkeep.
Light Armor / Clothes: Poor physical protection; Ideal for stealth; Enables full / normal rates of movement; Lightweight and less encumberence to slow you down; generally quite cheap to maintain; Doesn't require extensive facilities to maintain, if even that; Provide good protection from weather / elements; Easier to hide certain types of weapons past guards / sentries.
Pre-CU/NGE SWG *used* to have a balanced system where players had a choice to go with a variety of different armors / armor types. Their pro's & con's weren't extensive like my example above, but the original SWG balance for armors was simply this:
The better the protection, the more penalties one had to their HAM (Health / Action / Mind Pools) and how fast they recovered (any actions done in combat cost HAM). ANYONE in this Skillpoint / Template Character system could wear any type of armor. But early on, it was up to the player to make that tough choice.
I just gave a huge example of outside thinking and possibilities, and something done in an actual MMORPG that put definite pro's / con's to aspects of gameplay while still granting the player this: Freedom in choice and freedom in developing their character.
A little imagination is great if they dare to go outside the safe confines of a fenced in playground constantly watched over by the yard teacher. But then again, most of the dev teams will of course go with the safe, constantly tried, old techniques and standards.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
If you are really sick of trinity tank/heal/dps then take a hard look at Vindictus. No real tank and no real healer. Just a support healers and a partial tank that can't taunt. No auto attacks, and non-skill based dodge system. It is not the perfect system but I could see a lot of innovation coming out of this model.
I think you people are just tired of MMO's in general and grasping at every straw to reinvigorate you into the genre again. Be it advocating sandbox or scolding the trinity system. It's not the systems per se but your own feeling of being burned out from the genre.
I think you people are just tired of MMO's in general and grasping at every straw to reinvigorate you into the genre again. Be it advocating sandbox or scolding the trinity system. It's not the systems per se but your own feeling of being burned out from the genre.
That may be true, but if a genre is growing stale, then perhaps it is time for some evolution.
No, on the contrary. I like it. It gives me a defined role to play both as identity and inside a group for teamwork. The alternative are self-reliant soloers who can do everything a bit but nothing for real.
Exactly +1
Solo gameplay mixed in with zerg group gameplay with no defined roles / strategy.
And there can't be other roles that are not Tank/healer/dps ?
Different roles doesn't mean no roles.
A) Why change a functioning system?
I have not yet seen any single convicing alternative to the Holy Trinity. If you present one, fine.
EQ1, Holy trinity is firmly in place but other methods of killing things were widely available.
I don't mind the holy trinity roles. I'm tired of the single method of killing things, tank and spank, that MMOs have been reduced to.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Comments
lol.
YEAH! Get rid of all the systems that are in place to force grouping, amirite? I mean, if every class in a MMO is capable of soloing everything, surely people would group still. I suppose they could add harder guys, that can't be solo'd, forcing people to group, and then have absolutely no need to work as a cohesive team to achieve the goal of the particular instance/whatever they are doing.
Face it, in MMO's (Which Diablo 2 isn't, so stop comparing a SP game with online capability to MMO games that are designed to facilitate human interaction and cooperation.) it is vital to have such systems in place.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3977663#3977663
This is not a game.
Highlighting a point of emphasis which I agree with. It's only in the last couple of years that the "Trinity" gimmick has been pushed down the throats of the MMORPG genre. WoW's influence plays a big role in that with a bunch of companies thinking that is the only possible way to go.
But it wasn't like this all the time.
Like I said in my earlier reply to this thread, I just absolutely despised "Trinity" / Tank / Heal / DPS because it is so limiting in gameplay.
In this system, you can look at a player character, for instance, and see they're a Rogue. You know automatically what they're about, what they're good at, what they can't do, what skills they ALL have, and not to mention, especially in PvP, what types of actions they all tend to do.
Think about that. You can simply look at a person's character, see their class name (or outright guess it from the kind of armor and weapons they're using), and know practically everything about their character. Just from a cursory glance!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I for one am getting tired of the holy trinity. but not because its a 'fail' system, but becasue no one seems to make it right. I have a issue with this when it comes to logic and when things bother me.. well u get the idea. The tank... yes this is understandable, but mashing a taunt button is just a half ass way of keeping agro. How about actualy making it so that mob a need to get threw player a (the tank) phyiscly before getting to player b? its simple colision which you can expand appon. and what would this lead to? actual fights where the tank class is almost renderd 100% in pvp in most games, would also make things more chalengeing while running your dungions.. and more tanks would be played AND wanted/needed for inovative instances.. WHICH brings me to a healer.. You know i never realy was a fan of this class.. while in fantisy mmo's a healer type class hass been needed in current systems.. buy logicly, a healer should be support.. not the only thing they do is heal. Keeping the old system on this restricts innovation for dungions, and healers tend to be op in pvp! Solution? well i think gw2 (god i cant wait for this game) has this coverd..but other then the way they are handleing it.. make that healer be SUPPORT like they realy are.. give some cc take away some healing power and give low-moderate dps and nothing more. I do mean take away alot of their healing power. Small hots and minor heals, not click 1 button wait 3 seconds and bam there 999999999 health back like most games are like anymore. That leaves dps for the trinity, realy nothing much wrong with this here.. but it could be expanded, more ways of dpsing then just dot dot, pew pew, or boom boom..
So anyway, if dont correctly the whole trinity could work realy well, but realy i have not seen ONE game do it right.. ever.. not once (yes im expecting some big flames for that, dont bother). But realy this isent the only thing plagueing mmos.. Whate ver happend to actual traps?? aka players not paying attention go splat before they realy get anywhere in dungeion.. how about some real world traps? Better yet how about named mobs that have the same skill sets available that YOU do. Also how about real cooperative gameplay. Where players literaly have to work together to get threw the game safely. (little example, but i remember a dungeion in aoc, black somethign that when goign threw there was a hall of fire,and there were pedastools that you needed to stand on on either side of the hall, and the other players runt hrew to the others so you could catch up. simple but u get the point). Also wtf happend to the element of supprise, where while adventureing threw a game the game can throw out something COMEPLTELY unexpected. for example your going threw the world, you find a odd tree with a whole underneath, u remove a gem. the ground shakes and you dont know what happend, but father threw the zone it weakens a seal and a ancient even gets released (lets say its a lvl 20 zone and the mob is level 30 and elite) that stars rampageing threw the area and killing unexpecting people).
All these thigns are problems with games anymore, and the inability to build a real set up the classes is just the tip of the mountion of crap anymore. oh and 1 more complaint! The whole 'puller' roler is compete bullshit. You should not be able to run up to a group of mobs, shoot 1 with an arrow and only that 1 comes.. if theres 10 mobs in an area close to eachother.. if you shoot 1.. all of his friends should come aswell. pulling mobs is completely illogical and is just a dulled version for people who can not play well, or are stupid enough to go near a pack of mobs alone when obviously they wouldent be able to hadnle it.. end..
just something to think about.. let the flameing begin and i know i typo alot... deal with it
its not that they are predertimend classes, its the fact that devs lack the ingenuity to think up something more flexible and apealing to players.
for a long time ive always thought their should be no classes at all. instead you create your charecter from the feet up. once you have your charecter you then define him by actually playing the game and chooseing the types of skills he will use as you go and upgradeing his abilities by actually using them. also i think its about time they done away with levels. levels mean grinding and every one finds grinding boreing.
this sucks -
race -human
class - archer
its boreing and one tracked and the same all the way through the game.
i would rather have -
race - human
skills -
archery 0/250
sword 0/250
hammer 0/250
mace 0/250
light armour 0/250
medium armour 0/250
heavy armour 0/250
riding 0/250
armoured riding 0/250
mounted combat 0/250
wood cutting 0/250
wood turning 0/250
fletcher 0/250
smithy 0/250
armourer 0/250
weaponsmith 0/250
blacksmithing 0/250
and so on -
and to support this to prevent it from becoming a grind, the game would need some amazing content of vast proportions, like a seemingly limitless clothing and armour content. as well as some epic crafting and plenty of diffrent resource types which can be combined to make better resources, resourcs that must be processed and refined before use and the better the skill of the player the better the results.
they need to get rid of loot and put the power back into the hands of the players and the crafters out there.
i too hate tanks dps ranged nukers and healers, this makes games dull and linear, every one knows how to make a nuker every one knows how to make a tank, there is no challenege in games classes today, they are too easy to make.
i want to be able to experiement and make something unique that no one else has or will ever think of. i want to create my own class based of what skills and abilities i choose for him.
but no all we will get are more and more crappy wow clones. its a sad sad time for mmo games.
I understand the point of a classless system with just skills to make your character but theres also balancing issues and if everyone can max every skill then everyone will be the same thing, then it's just down to player skill, in which case the skills are a useless grind.
If you put limits on sklils then people will max one skill and thus turn themselves into a particular class (mostly the armor one)
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Weapon classes could be feature a variety of specialty classes and ranges, a-la Monster Hunter Frontier. While the game does not exist outside of Asia I am convinced that it has the best combat system for bosses in any MMO. Ultra specialized classes will not be necessary as gamers focus more on careful positioning, timing and communication. Games like WoW simply do not have enough combat depth to utilize this system but there are certainly others like Tera which are heading in that direction.
Vindictus (can't remember how that game is spelled) does that actually, well sorta. The biggest problem is lag. If you get lag in combat like that, your basically dead (MH usually allows you to get hit about 4 times from a monster before your dead). Whereas games like WoW can let you get even 10 seconds of lag and be fine because it knows exactly what should be happening at that point (auto attack)
Games are moving away from that with removing auto attack and making you dodge enemy blasts.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
i agree with you. the idea of 250 levels to each skill is that it would take a life time to level them all. also as you choose certain skill sets the system could lock out alternate skill sets permanently defineing your charecter. it would be a really slow grind too.
or better still no armour no skills
instead players cna learn usefull trades like weapon smith armourer builder and so on. maybe seige works and stuff. no actual skill training or leveling. every one starts on an even playing field and the game will then rely heavily on team work and other players.
but there are so many gamers out there now who know nothing but grinding levels and feeling like they achieved something.
they are oblivious to the fact they have achieved boredom once they max a charecter. in just about all games once you have best armour and finished all the quests there is pretty much no after game support for these players, instead they are left with nothing to do, they become bored and fed up. some will start over with a new class, but many just stop playing. the games have no fabric no end game purpose no real need to reach their ends, once you do its over, an mmo should never end!!
the pvp would be fully diverse and directional with blocking and so on. i.e. shield becoming something you actual have to point the right direction to get its benefits and actual aim your weapons to hit the target.
ok how about this -
instead of having the list above with 250 levels for each skill. how about having it where the items level upa s they are used so players can collect them. they would obviously need to take a long long time to max out. or even have it limitless. i dont know how it would work but i know how it may feel and play. their has to be some way for developers to give us something diffrent thats balanced and not dull like classes are.
eve online had a time based skill system, you had to buy the skill and then train them across real time. they messed it up when they stopped the training when subscriptions had ended, this just made people think the skill tree was designed to milk players of money over vast periods of time, i have to admit it kepr me paying and playing just so i could have my cap ship for a good 4 years across 3 accounts. but the thing with eve is, if you work at it the game is free to play because you can buy game time with ingame currency. i played my last 2 years of eve entirely for free.
but then its that old demon again, the oss up of who is in control of your charecters account, you or the game devs.
Absolutely, but MMOs are saturated with this system now and it has become a huge part of the genre. Wish it was gone, but I doubt it ever leaves.
And are there not serious balancing issues in Class + Level systems also? I recall quite vividly the constant cycle of Nerfs and Overempowerment devs do to even the "simpler to balance" Class + Level systems. In particular are ranged DPS classes when it involves PvP (devs HATE Archers and such despite implementing ranged combat / classes in their own game). Even with a simpler system, devs still had no clue in keeping things balanced or with definite pro's / con's between their dumbed down classes.
And the problem you give about people strengthening "a particular class" is a strongpoint about a Skillbased system. YOU build a mix of skills and proficiencies to suit your playstyle. As far as everyone gravitating towards heavy armors, have you ever known systems that had pro's / con's to that?
Heavy Armor: Very high physical protection; Bonus damage to a charge (due to mass of weight and throwing target off balance); Heavy weight; Much slower movement speed (definitely not the choice if you have to retreat); Poor choice for stealth; Fatigues player quickly in a hot, desert environment (think debuffs); Expensive to repair and maintain, esp. fancy heavy armors; Requires extensive facilities (a fully established smithy) to upkeep / repair high-end, fancy armors
Medium Armor: A compromise in weight & protection; Still confers a penalty to stealthy movements / abilities; Penalty to movement speed, but not as severe as wearing Heavy Armors; Heavier Medium Armors like Chainmail require extensive facilities such as a Smithy; Generally cheaper and easier to maintain in the field than Heavy Armor... less resources required to upkeep.
Light Armor / Clothes: Poor physical protection; Ideal for stealth; Enables full / normal rates of movement; Lightweight and less encumberence to slow you down; generally quite cheap to maintain; Doesn't require extensive facilities to maintain, if even that; Provide good protection from weather / elements; Easier to hide certain types of weapons past guards / sentries.
Pre-CU/NGE SWG *used* to have a balanced system where players had a choice to go with a variety of different armors / armor types. Their pro's & con's weren't extensive like my example above, but the original SWG balance for armors was simply this:
The better the protection, the more penalties one had to their HAM (Health / Action / Mind Pools) and how fast they recovered (any actions done in combat cost HAM). ANYONE in this Skillpoint / Template Character system could wear any type of armor. But early on, it was up to the player to make that tough choice.
I just gave a huge example of outside thinking and possibilities, and something done in an actual MMORPG that put definite pro's / con's to aspects of gameplay while still granting the player this: Freedom in choice and freedom in developing their character.
A little imagination is great if they dare to go outside the safe confines of a fenced in playground constantly watched over by the yard teacher. But then again, most of the dev teams will of course go with the safe, constantly tried, old techniques and standards.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
If you are really sick of trinity tank/heal/dps then take a hard look at Vindictus. No real tank and no real healer. Just a support healers and a partial tank that can't taunt. No auto attacks, and non-skill based dodge system. It is not the perfect system but I could see a lot of innovation coming out of this model.
Yea, but then you'd have to deal with vindictus' lack of content.
I think you people are just tired of MMO's in general and grasping at every straw to reinvigorate you into the genre again. Be it advocating sandbox or scolding the trinity system. It's not the systems per se but your own feeling of being burned out from the genre.
That may be true, but if a genre is growing stale, then perhaps it is time for some evolution.
EQ1, Holy trinity is firmly in place but other methods of killing things were widely available.
I don't mind the holy trinity roles. I'm tired of the single method of killing things, tank and spank, that MMOs have been reduced to.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.