The Holy Trinity is the essence of the real MMORPG, because it assign a Role to the player (RPG = ROLE Play Games)
Without the Trinity there are no ROLES to play
You are kidding right?
Roleplaying games comes from the mid 70s and were originally pen and paper games. The holy triad probably made it's first appearance in Meridian 59 in '97.
Roleplaying means you play a character in a fictional world that changes (usually for the better) while you play him/her.
Roleplaying games are over 20 years older than the triad.
Honestly when i heard about EQ and all this idea of forcing kids to group and all this, i was already sick of it. And yes tank/heal/dps is about force grouping to get kids to acheive anything special in a game, thats the idea behind it. The class system is just secondary imo, a big secondary thought lol.
All this sound so twisted and perveted, as if a bunch of old moralist that lock their child in their basement when they don't listen brainstormed that idea
Ye i was sick of it from the begining (did i say that already?), and the worst part is that the only trinity kind of game i liked was the korean games that pushed this to its maximum, where any small detail and problem during a dungeon party would have everyone wiped. Only there did i enjoyed it really, because having a good party that could relaxe and make fun of it all was so damn rare, that having one was worth it. The worst for me is the half assed: we force grouping, but we western are for liberty kind of i sit in between 2 chair attitude; lol. All those games EQ, EQ2, WOW, LOTRO, i never could play them more than few weeks. As if all my characters suffer from claustrophobia in them, even the lack of seamles map make me sick.
Honestly i think those kind of stuff should be forbiden, and sandbox should be forced on developers, just to give them a good lesson
Other ways? Just ditch it entirely. Ditch classes, too, while we're at it. And the concept of 'aggro table.' Freeform character customization, where you're able to directly control how your character grows. With no aggro table, people will have to either devote customization to being sneaky or tough, and can easily gain access to methods to keep themselves alive.
Makes characters a lot more generalist rather than specialist (though specialist can still very much exists, with a solid group of people),
Yeah, I almost believe such a system could work.
Reason being is that I'm extremely against allowing anyone to become anything and allowing each of that "anything" to be as powerful as they can make it.
what will end up happening is that you will have uber mages wearing plate, expertly wielding their battle blades as they call down lightning from the sky only to stop to do some thieving in their spare time. And in the end you will end up with all players being exactly the same over time.
Now, if it was a system that allowed one to create a character within a certain set path and the more they worked outside that path the more "points" or resources or "whatever" they would need to use, then I would be more inclined to agree.
I'll say it again; the Masters of Orion II custom race system would be my ideal system.
You can essentially create a race that had access to everything but the more powerful they wanted to become in a certain area or the more skills the wanted, the more points it would take, thus leaving them to make some choices as to what to give in on OR they would have to take some negatives. However, they only had so many "negatives" they could take and it was done in such a way that it was a "real" negative. Not, for example, a mage saying "oh in that case I'll do some negatives to my strength as that will be fair".
A system that allows some customization but that also forces the player to make choices and to even gimp himself in certain areas so that he can be extremely powerful in other areas would work very well.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I love games in which people actually need to learn their role...and how to play it instead of everyone just being mish mash hybrids. It actually feels good to get complimented on your ability to play these games and people actually come to you because they know they can count on you.
I guess mashing all the classes into hybrids where no one stands out will definately help the average player to people who arent very good though. I guess that has some benifits as well.
However kinda makes me wonder how the game can be very challenging without dedicated roles involved.
Tired of "Trinity" and Class + Level style gameplay. It's stale, predictable, and offers very little variety in gameplay.
My main beef is this: Restrictions, restrictions, restrictions.
Once you pick that class, you are restricted to a very specific set of skills and abilities. You are restricted to only a very specific style of play. Even with specializations involved to your class, the variety really isn't any different. But if you do try an oddball specialization to your class, you have cut the balls off your toon and made him very weak... because you are no longer good at what the devs say your class is about. Nevermind that they gave "options" via specialization. Once you pick that class, everyone expects you to play in a very exact, particular way for that class. Once you pick that class, if you try anything different from what everyone automatically assumes about your class, you're not a good player for the team. Once you pick that class, a person can look at your toon and know exactly how you're built up and what general skills / functions you have. Once you pick that class, you are no longer really any different from anyone else in your class. You all have the SAME general set of skills. The only difference really is gear and what level you are. That's it.
"Trinity" / Class+Level system to me is badly restrictive, limiting, and narrow. It lacks freedom. Just lock a ball & chain on your character's leg, already. You may think your toon is different from everyone else. But in reality, you're the same as everything else in that game.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I just wanted to point out one thing in the red part. notice how that holy trinity makes you rely on others? Isn't that suppose to be the point of an MMO to need to rely on others so that way you have to interact with the people in that world? I know the point your trying to make is that some classes are not fun to play therefore the trinity should be removed
However i think the problem lies in where the yellow is. It's not the trinity that may be the problem but how the class is designed, some people simply don't find the cleric fun and therefore play another class. However if you were to improve the clerics fighting ability or make them more interactive in the fight, then i could see more people playing them.
Take ToR (yes i had to do it GW2 peeps :P ) they made the cleric type class able to also do some CC and DPS, thus making it more attractive. If this works, we will have to see, but i'm not so much sure its the holy trinity itself that is the problem but how certain classes are implemented are the problem.
"Okay, so the roads after PAX, or more specifically the two MMO roads after PAX. It’s no surprise that the two MMOs that are seen as so big they auto-compete are Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic (“SWTOR”). I am not saying that TERA, Rift, Lego Universe, The Secret World, or any other that I have missed are not going to be great upcoming MMOs with things to offer the MMO genre. It’s just that their gravitational pull cannot currently (or ever) compete with the two currently unlaunched titles, respectively, from ArenaNet and BioWare.
These two giants are quite dissimilar in design and goals, even though both share a “personal story.” This difference was never more apparent than from this quote a SWTOR dev gave during PAX:
“There are very traditional roles that you fulfil, multiplayer combat requires that. We’re an MMO, we’re not idiots, we know that you need to have dependencies on others. What we’re trying to do is play a class you really like, and then through your AC choice, choose your playstyle. So so if you play for instance as a sith warrior, you can go very much in the tank direction or you can actually go in the DPS directions. That’s really up to you. So I really like a sith warrior, he’s really awesome, but I don’t like to tank. Ok, that’s fine. You can choose I think the marauder is the more DPS AC on that side. The same is true of all the other classes.”
The SWTOR community echoes and amplifies the quote with one of my favorite responses in the post quoting the above by saying SWTOR “is an honest to god MMO, with tanks and healers and DPS.” I found this quote to be self-damning since Bartle just wrote a long article about the dead-end bad design that begat the holy trinity. Even moreso, I think that this quote aims at the heart of Guild Wars 2. By applying Dogberry logic, they are calling ArenaNet idiots because in Guild Wars 2 the traditional roles have been abolished. How can idiotic ArenaNet have an MMO with multiplayer combat?! It’s inconceivable.
However, I don’t want it to be known that I am an ass (anymore than I already have been), and so I am going to helpfully pull one portion of that quote out of context to create a more constructive post.
We’re an MMO, we know that you need to have dependencies on others.
This is why I think BioWare is creating an MMO aimed at World of Warcraft players, and why ArenaNet is creating an MMO aimed at everybody else.
Normal people (read: not classic MMO players) don’t like dependencies. Dependencies imply negative reinforcement. You have to group up because you can’t heal yourself. You have to group up because you can’t take damage. You have to group up because you can’t deal damage. None of these truths are fun to tell anybody when trying to teach someone unaccustomed to MMOs about the party mechanic, the holy trinity, and why we need to wait 20 minutes for a healer.
Dependencies do not create roles! Or, rather… that’s not true. Dependencies overly define roles to the point where a ”role” becomes the defining trait. Roles should be created based on the activities at hand. Roles should be positively reinforced by what the character can bring to that multiplayer activity.
Take a look at the Guild Wars 2 elementalist profession with it’s four “stances.” Each stance puts the elementalist into a different elemental attunement. Fire attunement allows the elementalist to start doing massive AoE damage. Air attunement switches the elementalist’s DPS from AoE to single-target. Water does support and healing, and Earth puts the elementalist in to a tank mode. That way the elementalist can watch the battlefield to synergize with the multiplayer mass to provide for whatever role is necessary at that time. The elementalist is watching to help the event or party instead of grouping to negate the elementalist’s dependencies.
It’s a very slight difference when looking at a role built on negatively reinforced dependencies versus a role built on positively reinforced synergies. It gets even worse because it is rarely so black and white anyway. Most MMOs take a mixture of both into creating classes and group content. Yet, it’s the focus that really matters, and Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR seem to really have a different focus in this regard. The battle of these two giants is truly old versus new in the sense of role definition. Personally I’d rather be looking for players rather than roles."
Other ways? Just ditch it entirely. Ditch classes, too, while we're at it. And the concept of 'aggro table.' Freeform character customization, where you're able to directly control how your character grows. With no aggro table, people will have to either devote customization to being sneaky or tough, and can easily gain access to methods to keep themselves alive.
Makes characters a lot more generalist rather than specialist (though specialist can still very much exists, with a solid group of people),
Yeah, I almost believe such a system could work.
Reason being is that I'm extremely against allowing anyone to become anything and allowing each of that "anything" to be as powerful as they can make it.
what will end up happening is that you will have uber mages wearing plate, expertly wielding their battle blades as they call down lightning from the sky only to stop to do some thieving in their spare time. And in the end you will end up with all players being exactly the same over time.
Now, if it was a system that allowed one to create a character within a certain set path and the more they worked outside that path the more "points" or resources or "whatever" they would need to use, then I would be more inclined to agree.
I'll say it again; the Masters of Orion II custom race system would be my ideal system.
You can essentially create a race that had access to everything but the more powerful they wanted to become in a certain area or the more skills the wanted, the more points it would take, thus leaving them to make some choices as to what to give in on OR they would have to take some negatives. However, they only had so many "negatives" they could take and it was done in such a way that it was a "real" negative. Not, for example, a mage saying "oh in that case I'll do some negatives to my strength as that will be fair".
A system that allows some customization but that also forces the player to make choices and to even gimp himself in certain areas so that he can be extremely powerful in other areas would work very well.
Ok, while the idea sounds good, in a real MMO, it can not work.
Here is why: When you team up with people you know and you play always the same people, you can coordinate who takes what powers. The idea of playing a "role" in a team combatting enemies is, that each one has strengths and weaknesses. Any. They don't have to be the Holy Trinity. However, if you make a large pool of powers and everyone can select anything, 90% of the people will fetch the "cool powers", as everyone's natural instinct is to be as invulnerable as possible. The result would be, most people would make jack-of-all-trade characters.
But the most important reason: in a MMO you always team up with different people. People you don't know, always other people, strangers. If you have this vast pool of powers, you NEVER know what strengths or weaknesses another has. You can't learn to play your role in relation to others, you can't practice and improve, because practicing needs fixed roles. It's like a person who wants to be creative and because he can't decide he makes music and writes and draws and cooks and does 100 things. You can learn to be good in one thing and then excel at that. That is when you will be a valuable team member. You will be the healer, or the CC or the tank. And people will look up to you respecting you and inviting you for you have learned to be a great healer/CC/tank. You will make a name for that of you. That is how team work functions. Like in a baseball team. One can pitch good, one can catch and give signs, once can run fast or hit good. Or in any Football. People specialize in a small few things, like in a SWAT team, and then you work together.
If everyone tinkers his class out of a legion of powers, you never know what another has, you never can learn to improve you cooperation with others. You are not tanking for yourself, you tank covering your vulnerable team mates! You heal, you CC, all for the combined effort! In that chaos of endless choices you guys advocate all team work is destroyed and we end up as the soloing hell we are already slipping into. But when no one works together anymore, why go to MMos at all? It's not that their alone entertainment is superior to other games. If you want to make stuff alone, there is a legion of games with far better solo entertainment than MMOs.
All I hear from you guys is complaining you feel so confined! Well, of course you confine yourself, you contribute to the team by one thing you are good at! Snap out of your ego trips already and learn again that victory of a team is 1000 times more fun and greater than always soloing around! Don't be a stranger! There are nice and cool people everywhere to meet and play alongside! And when you do this, you'll find its way more fun that always being the hero alone!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Other ways? Just ditch it entirely. Ditch classes, too, while we're at it. And the concept of 'aggro table.' Freeform character customization, where you're able to directly control how your character grows. With no aggro table, people will have to either devote customization to being sneaky or tough, and can easily gain access to methods to keep themselves alive.
Makes characters a lot more generalist rather than specialist (though specialist can still very much exists, with a solid group of people),
Yeah, I almost believe such a system could work.
Reason being is that I'm extremely against allowing anyone to become anything and allowing each of that "anything" to be as powerful as they can make it.
what will end up happening is that you will have uber mages wearing plate, expertly wielding their battle blades as they call down lightning from the sky only to stop to do some thieving in their spare time. And in the end you will end up with all players being exactly the same over time.
Now, if it was a system that allowed one to create a character within a certain set path and the more they worked outside that path the more "points" or resources or "whatever" they would need to use, then I would be more inclined to agree.
I'll say it again; the Masters of Orion II custom race system would be my ideal system.
You can essentially create a race that had access to everything but the more powerful they wanted to become in a certain area or the more skills the wanted, the more points it would take, thus leaving them to make some choices as to what to give in on OR they would have to take some negatives. However, they only had so many "negatives" they could take and it was done in such a way that it was a "real" negative. Not, for example, a mage saying "oh in that case I'll do some negatives to my strength as that will be fair".
A system that allows some customization but that also forces the player to make choices and to even gimp himself in certain areas so that he can be extremely powerful in other areas would work very well.
Ok, while the idea sounds good, in a real MMO, it can not work.
Here is why: When you team up with people you know and you play always the same people, you can coordinate who takes what powers. The idea of playing a "role" in a team combatting enemies is, that each one has strengths and weaknesses. Any. They don't have to be the Holy Trinity. However, if you make a large pool of powers and everyone can select anything, 90% of the people will fetch the "cool powers", as everyone's natural instinct is to be as invulnerable as possible. The result would be, most people would make jack-of-all-trade characters.
But the most important reason: in a MMO you always team up with different people. People you don't know, always other people, strangers. If you have this vast pool of powers, you NEVER know what strengths or weaknesses another has. You can't learn to play your role in relation to others, you can't practice and improve, because practicing needs fixed roles. It's like a person who wants to be creative and because he can't decide he makes music and writes and draws and cooks and does 100 things. You can learn to be good in one thing and then excel at that. That is when you will be a valuable team member. You will be the healer, or the CC or the tank. And people will look up to you respecting you and inviting you for you have learned to be a great healer/CC/tank. You will make a name for that of you. That is how team work functions. Like in a baseball team. One can pitch good, one can catch and give signs, once can run fast or hit good. Or in any Football. People specialize in a small few things, like in a SWAT team, and then you work together.
If everyone tinkers his class out of a legion of powers, you never know what another has, you never can learn to improve you cooperation with others. You are not tanking for yourself, you tank covering your vulnerable team mates! You heal, you CC, all for the combined effort! In that chaos of endless choices you guys advocate all team work is destroyed and we end up as the soloing hell we are already slipping into. But when no one works together anymore, why go to MMos at all? It's not that their alone entertainment is superior to other games. If you want to make stuff alone, there is a legion of games with far better solo entertainment than MMOs.
All I hear from you guys is complaining you feel so confined! Well, of course you confine yourself, you contribute to the team by one thing you are good at! Snap out of your ego trips already and learn again that victory of a team is 1000 times more fun and greater than always soloing around! Don't be a stranger! There are nice and cool people everywhere to meet and play alongside! And when you do this, you'll find its way more fun that always being the hero alone!
Though that actually sounds MORE fun to me as you then have a sense of the unpredictable, it's a good point.
And that is, of course, why the holy trinity tends to win out. Everyone knows their role.
still, I would easily play a game where everyone knew his own role and they just had to figure it out while fighting.
Still, a warrior is a warrior, mage a majoe, sniper a sniper and medic a medic.
I think people would be able to find a role somewhere in there depending one what they leaned toward. However, that goes more toward my (which is not mine) "masters of orion II" system.
Each race in masters of orion II excelled at something. However, you could add a few things here and there to any one of them to give them some benefits. Unfortunately, you might have to do some minuses.
Essentialy I believe in classes that can be customized. So you would still have your role but you could add and subtract here and there to give yourself unique abilities and add a few achilles' heels.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
More specifically, yes I am sick of the PROBLEMS this leads to. Solve the problems and you have superceded the HT not replaced it. IE You can do ALL of what the HT does... and MORE.
Originally posted by MumboJumbo More specifically, yes I am sick of the PROBLEMS this leads to. Solve the problems and you have superceded the HT not replaced it. IE You can do ALL of what the HT does... and MORE.
Pretty much this. Tank / heals are just tried and true ways of making roles and dedicated utility. Filling a specific role in a group is a good thing. Finding new ways to do it besides ht is innovation.
Ok, while the idea sounds good, in a real MMO, it can not work.
Here is why: When you team up with people you know and you play always the same people, you can coordinate who takes what powers. The idea of playing a "role" in a team combatting enemies is, that each one has strengths and weaknesses. Any. They don't have to be the Holy Trinity. However, if you make a large pool of powers and everyone can select anything, 90% of the people will fetch the "cool powers", as everyone's natural instinct is to be as invulnerable as possible. The result would be, most people would make jack-of-all-trade characters.
But the most important reason: in a MMO you always team up with different people. People you don't know, always other people, strangers. If you have this vast pool of powers, you NEVER know what strengths or weaknesses another has. You can't learn to play your role in relation to others, you can't practice and improve, because practicing needs fixed roles. It's like a person who wants to be creative and because he can't decide he makes music and writes and draws and cooks and does 100 things. You can learn to be good in one thing and then excel at that. That is when you will be a valuable team member. You will be the healer, or the CC or the tank. And people will look up to you respecting you and inviting you for you have learned to be a great healer/CC/tank. You will make a name for that of you. That is how team work functions. Like in a baseball team. One can pitch good, one can catch and give signs, once can run fast or hit good. Or in any Football. People specialize in a small few things, like in a SWAT team, and then you work together.
If everyone tinkers his class out of a legion of powers, you never know what another has, you never can learn to improve you cooperation with others. You are not tanking for yourself, you tank covering your vulnerable team mates! You heal, you CC, all for the combined effort! In that chaos of endless choices you guys advocate all team work is destroyed and we end up as the soloing hell we are already slipping into. But when no one works together anymore, why go to MMos at all? It's not that their alone entertainment is superior to other games. If you want to make stuff alone, there is a legion of games with far better solo entertainment than MMOs.
All I hear from you guys is complaining you feel so confined! Well, of course you confine yourself, you contribute to the team by one thing you are good at! Snap out of your ego trips already and learn again that victory of a team is 1000 times more fun and greater than always soloing around! Don't be a stranger! There are nice and cool people everywhere to meet and play alongside! And when you do this, you'll find its way more fun that always being the hero alone!
Depending on who you're speaking to, you might be getting the idea behind breaking the trinity wrong. Breaking the trinity doesn't require a character to break out from his/her specific role but instead do more with that specific role.
For instance, the extremely fast runner in american football could do more with his role by being an interceptor in a situation that needs it or the catcher who can go deep for a hail mary in a situation that needs it. You don't need to move yourself into another person's role to diversify, you basically expand a warrior role to not just tank but protector but he does it the way he knows how, expand a mage's role beyond CC but allow him to do it the way he knows how. That kind of thing not jumping from Rogue to Healer and trying to do it like them.
Originally posted by byronara man u way too wrong . Tank / Heal / DPS is teamplay and the best team play wins .
This The Holy Trinity is the essence of the real MMORPG, because it assign a Role to the player (RPG = ROLE Play Games) Without the Trinity there are no ROLES to play
Never table top gamed I take it? Roleplaying is not about being part of the 'trinity' (which in eq1 was cleric, warrior, enchanter just as a heads up.) it's about playing the role of an adventurer. A hero. Pick up a book, read it. It really, when talking about roleplaying, has nothing to do with being a class what so ever. You kids and your crazy ideas. Go back to UO for instance, and that really is the first well acknowledged MMORPG... let me know how it fits your ideas of roles of dps, tank, healer... or ac1... eq1... etc.
The "trinity" is just minimum numbers for maximum effectiveness, its the number crunchers game. Nothing wrong with that (we called that "power gaming" back in the day when doing table top, at the extreme end "min-maxing" and "munchkins"), but it has nothing to do with roleplaying what so ever.
Edit: I'll add, nor does most MMO games for that matter or single player rpg's... they just took the name because it was the closest analogy they could come up with.
Okay...so it's not THAT much different...but support is more fun and "super hero" like, and Crowd Control is a role entirely unto itself. Then there's Mastermind (Pet dps) and other roles, although they're just hybrids.
To be honest, I don't think it's tiresome or milked dry. There is only so much you can do in a game that is solely about combat. You can take damage, you can give damage, or you can heal damage. When damage is the only thing that matters-- of course there are only 3 roles.
And no, I do not think a game with only DPS roles is somehow "better". It's not the roles, but how you design the roles. IMO it doesn't matter how many or how few types of characters there are. It matters if the game is fun, and what those roles are like.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning, but I am VERY sick of tankhealerdps. It sounds so silly, and its breaking my immersion big time. Maybe I was just a newbie and didn't know any better, but these words were not very common 6-7 years ago and it was such a good time. I just hate to be called a tank, or dps, it just sounds cold and feels wrong. Not sure what could replace it though.
These words didn't even cross my mind when I played games like baldurs gate, and that was great.
I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning, but I am VERY sick of tankhealerdps. It sounds so silly, and its breaking my immersion big time. Maybe I was just a newbie and didn't know any better, but these words were not very common 6-7 years ago and it was such a good time. I just hate to be called a tank, or dps, it just sounds cold and feels wrong. Not sure what could replace it though.
These words didn't even cross my mind when I played games like baldurs gate, and that was great.
completely agree 100%
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning, but I am VERY sick of tankhealerdps. It sounds so silly, and its breaking my immersion big time. Maybe I was just a newbie and didn't know any better, but these words were not very common 6-7 years ago and it was such a good time. I just hate to be called a tank, or dps, it just sounds cold and feels wrong. Not sure what could replace it though.
These words didn't even cross my mind when I played games like baldurs gate, and that was great.
How about
Tank= meat shield
Healer= Meat
DPS= squishy
Sorta the same thing
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
This
The Holy Trinity is the essence of the real MMORPG, because it assign a Role to the player (RPG = ROLE Play Games)
Without the Trinity there are no ROLES to play
Just think for a second.
Are you sure there can't be ANY other roles in a game?
Yes.. I'm thinking about firing Diablo2 up. But oh my the clicking...
o i know
If your going to ban the trolls please for our sake ban the Fan Boys too.
oh man i think that game gave me arthritis
You are kidding right?
Roleplaying games comes from the mid 70s and were originally pen and paper games. The holy triad probably made it's first appearance in Meridian 59 in '97.
Roleplaying means you play a character in a fictional world that changes (usually for the better) while you play him/her.
Roleplaying games are over 20 years older than the triad.
You are utterly wrong.
I was sick of it when it was still an idea.
Honestly when i heard about EQ and all this idea of forcing kids to group and all this, i was already sick of it. And yes tank/heal/dps is about force grouping to get kids to acheive anything special in a game, thats the idea behind it. The class system is just secondary imo, a big secondary thought lol.
All this sound so twisted and perveted, as if a bunch of old moralist that lock their child in their basement when they don't listen brainstormed that idea
Ye i was sick of it from the begining (did i say that already?), and the worst part is that the only trinity kind of game i liked was the korean games that pushed this to its maximum, where any small detail and problem during a dungeon party would have everyone wiped. Only there did i enjoyed it really, because having a good party that could relaxe and make fun of it all was so damn rare, that having one was worth it. The worst for me is the half assed: we force grouping, but we western are for liberty kind of i sit in between 2 chair attitude; lol. All those games EQ, EQ2, WOW, LOTRO, i never could play them more than few weeks. As if all my characters suffer from claustrophobia in them, even the lack of seamles map make me sick.
Honestly i think those kind of stuff should be forbiden, and sandbox should be forced on developers, just to give them a good lesson
Yeah, I almost believe such a system could work.
Reason being is that I'm extremely against allowing anyone to become anything and allowing each of that "anything" to be as powerful as they can make it.
what will end up happening is that you will have uber mages wearing plate, expertly wielding their battle blades as they call down lightning from the sky only to stop to do some thieving in their spare time. And in the end you will end up with all players being exactly the same over time.
Now, if it was a system that allowed one to create a character within a certain set path and the more they worked outside that path the more "points" or resources or "whatever" they would need to use, then I would be more inclined to agree.
I'll say it again; the Masters of Orion II custom race system would be my ideal system.
You can essentially create a race that had access to everything but the more powerful they wanted to become in a certain area or the more skills the wanted, the more points it would take, thus leaving them to make some choices as to what to give in on OR they would have to take some negatives. However, they only had so many "negatives" they could take and it was done in such a way that it was a "real" negative. Not, for example, a mage saying "oh in that case I'll do some negatives to my strength as that will be fair".
A system that allows some customization but that also forces the player to make choices and to even gimp himself in certain areas so that he can be extremely powerful in other areas would work very well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
tank/healer /dps is fine. Get rid of tab target 123 game play like Darkfall has. Proper FPS game play or at least aiming.
All tab target mmo's are too samy.
I love games in which people actually need to learn their role...and how to play it instead of everyone just being mish mash hybrids. It actually feels good to get complimented on your ability to play these games and people actually come to you because they know they can count on you.
I guess mashing all the classes into hybrids where no one stands out will definately help the average player to people who arent very good though. I guess that has some benifits as well.
However kinda makes me wonder how the game can be very challenging without dedicated roles involved.
Tired of "Trinity" and Class + Level style gameplay. It's stale, predictable, and offers very little variety in gameplay.
My main beef is this: Restrictions, restrictions, restrictions.
Once you pick that class, you are restricted to a very specific set of skills and abilities. You are restricted to only a very specific style of play. Even with specializations involved to your class, the variety really isn't any different. But if you do try an oddball specialization to your class, you have cut the balls off your toon and made him very weak... because you are no longer good at what the devs say your class is about. Nevermind that they gave "options" via specialization. Once you pick that class, everyone expects you to play in a very exact, particular way for that class. Once you pick that class, if you try anything different from what everyone automatically assumes about your class, you're not a good player for the team. Once you pick that class, a person can look at your toon and know exactly how you're built up and what general skills / functions you have. Once you pick that class, you are no longer really any different from anyone else in your class. You all have the SAME general set of skills. The only difference really is gear and what level you are. That's it.
"Trinity" / Class+Level system to me is badly restrictive, limiting, and narrow. It lacks freedom. Just lock a ball & chain on your character's leg, already. You may think your toon is different from everyone else. But in reality, you're the same as everything else in that game.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/09/07/the-roads-after-pax/
"Okay, so the roads after PAX, or more specifically the two MMO roads after PAX. It’s no surprise that the two MMOs that are seen as so big they auto-compete are Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic (“SWTOR”). I am not saying that TERA, Rift, Lego Universe, The Secret World, or any other that I have missed are not going to be great upcoming MMOs with things to offer the MMO genre. It’s just that their gravitational pull cannot currently (or ever) compete with the two currently unlaunched titles, respectively, from ArenaNet and BioWare.
These two giants are quite dissimilar in design and goals, even though both share a “personal story.” This difference was never more apparent than from this quote a SWTOR dev gave during PAX:
The SWTOR community echoes and amplifies the quote with one of my favorite responses in the post quoting the above by saying SWTOR “is an honest to god MMO, with tanks and healers and DPS.” I found this quote to be self-damning since Bartle just wrote a long article about the dead-end bad design that begat the holy trinity. Even moreso, I think that this quote aims at the heart of Guild Wars 2. By applying Dogberry logic, they are calling ArenaNet idiots because in Guild Wars 2 the traditional roles have been abolished. How can idiotic ArenaNet have an MMO with multiplayer combat?! It’s inconceivable.
However, I don’t want it to be known that I am an ass (anymore than I already have been), and so I am going to helpfully pull one portion of that quote out of context to create a more constructive post.
This is why I think BioWare is creating an MMO aimed at World of Warcraft players, and why ArenaNet is creating an MMO aimed at everybody else.
Normal people (read: not classic MMO players) don’t like dependencies. Dependencies imply negative reinforcement. You have to group up because you can’t heal yourself. You have to group up because you can’t take damage. You have to group up because you can’t deal damage. None of these truths are fun to tell anybody when trying to teach someone unaccustomed to MMOs about the party mechanic, the holy trinity, and why we need to wait 20 minutes for a healer.
Dependencies do not create roles! Or, rather… that’s not true. Dependencies overly define roles to the point where a ”role” becomes the defining trait. Roles should be created based on the activities at hand. Roles should be positively reinforced by what the character can bring to that multiplayer activity.
Take a look at the Guild Wars 2 elementalist profession with it’s four “stances.” Each stance puts the elementalist into a different elemental attunement. Fire attunement allows the elementalist to start doing massive AoE damage. Air attunement switches the elementalist’s DPS from AoE to single-target. Water does support and healing, and Earth puts the elementalist in to a tank mode. That way the elementalist can watch the battlefield to synergize with the multiplayer mass to provide for whatever role is necessary at that time. The elementalist is watching to help the event or party instead of grouping to negate the elementalist’s dependencies.
It’s a very slight difference when looking at a role built on negatively reinforced dependencies versus a role built on positively reinforced synergies. It gets even worse because it is rarely so black and white anyway. Most MMOs take a mixture of both into creating classes and group content. Yet, it’s the focus that really matters, and Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR seem to really have a different focus in this regard. The battle of these two giants is truly old versus new in the sense of role definition. Personally I’d rather be looking for players rather than roles."
This is not a game.
Ok, while the idea sounds good, in a real MMO, it can not work.
Here is why: When you team up with people you know and you play always the same people, you can coordinate who takes what powers. The idea of playing a "role" in a team combatting enemies is, that each one has strengths and weaknesses. Any. They don't have to be the Holy Trinity. However, if you make a large pool of powers and everyone can select anything, 90% of the people will fetch the "cool powers", as everyone's natural instinct is to be as invulnerable as possible. The result would be, most people would make jack-of-all-trade characters.
But the most important reason: in a MMO you always team up with different people. People you don't know, always other people, strangers. If you have this vast pool of powers, you NEVER know what strengths or weaknesses another has. You can't learn to play your role in relation to others, you can't practice and improve, because practicing needs fixed roles. It's like a person who wants to be creative and because he can't decide he makes music and writes and draws and cooks and does 100 things. You can learn to be good in one thing and then excel at that. That is when you will be a valuable team member. You will be the healer, or the CC or the tank. And people will look up to you respecting you and inviting you for you have learned to be a great healer/CC/tank. You will make a name for that of you. That is how team work functions. Like in a baseball team. One can pitch good, one can catch and give signs, once can run fast or hit good. Or in any Football. People specialize in a small few things, like in a SWAT team, and then you work together.
If everyone tinkers his class out of a legion of powers, you never know what another has, you never can learn to improve you cooperation with others. You are not tanking for yourself, you tank covering your vulnerable team mates! You heal, you CC, all for the combined effort! In that chaos of endless choices you guys advocate all team work is destroyed and we end up as the soloing hell we are already slipping into. But when no one works together anymore, why go to MMos at all? It's not that their alone entertainment is superior to other games. If you want to make stuff alone, there is a legion of games with far better solo entertainment than MMOs.
All I hear from you guys is complaining you feel so confined! Well, of course you confine yourself, you contribute to the team by one thing you are good at! Snap out of your ego trips already and learn again that victory of a team is 1000 times more fun and greater than always soloing around! Don't be a stranger! There are nice and cool people everywhere to meet and play alongside! And when you do this, you'll find its way more fun that always being the hero alone!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Though that actually sounds MORE fun to me as you then have a sense of the unpredictable, it's a good point.
And that is, of course, why the holy trinity tends to win out. Everyone knows their role.
still, I would easily play a game where everyone knew his own role and they just had to figure it out while fighting.
Still, a warrior is a warrior, mage a majoe, sniper a sniper and medic a medic.
I think people would be able to find a role somewhere in there depending one what they leaned toward. However, that goes more toward my (which is not mine) "masters of orion II" system.
Each race in masters of orion II excelled at something. However, you could add a few things here and there to any one of them to give them some benefits. Unfortunately, you might have to do some minuses.
Essentialy I believe in classes that can be customized. So you would still have your role but you could add and subtract here and there to give yourself unique abilities and add a few achilles' heels.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
More specifically, yes I am sick of the PROBLEMS this leads to. Solve the problems and you have superceded the HT not replaced it. IE You can do ALL of what the HT does... and MORE.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Depending on who you're speaking to, you might be getting the idea behind breaking the trinity wrong. Breaking the trinity doesn't require a character to break out from his/her specific role but instead do more with that specific role.
For instance, the extremely fast runner in american football could do more with his role by being an interceptor in a situation that needs it or the catcher who can go deep for a hail mary in a situation that needs it. You don't need to move yourself into another person's role to diversify, you basically expand a warrior role to not just tank but protector but he does it the way he knows how, expand a mage's role beyond CC but allow him to do it the way he knows how. That kind of thing not jumping from Rogue to Healer and trying to do it like them.
This is not a game.
Never table top gamed I take it? Roleplaying is not about being part of the 'trinity' (which in eq1 was cleric, warrior, enchanter just as a heads up.) it's about playing the role of an adventurer. A hero. Pick up a book, read it. It really, when talking about roleplaying, has nothing to do with being a class what so ever. You kids and your crazy ideas. Go back to UO for instance, and that really is the first well acknowledged MMORPG... let me know how it fits your ideas of roles of dps, tank, healer... or ac1... eq1... etc.
The "trinity" is just minimum numbers for maximum effectiveness, its the number crunchers game. Nothing wrong with that (we called that "power gaming" back in the day when doing table top, at the extreme end "min-maxing" and "munchkins"), but it has nothing to do with roleplaying what so ever.
Edit: I'll add, nor does most MMO games for that matter or single player rpg's... they just took the name because it was the closest analogy they could come up with.
Shadus
play a Dota game, or clone. There is teamwork, and removal of the trinity.
I think tank/healer/dps is better than only dps.
In a game where everyone does damage, the only role is dps. Okay...how is that BETTER than a game with 3 roles?
Of course, I'm not saying the trinity role system is perfect. There should be more roles than just the 3, IMO.
But to SHRINK the roles to only 1? I think being a Protector is awesome.
To be honest, I like City of Hero's take on it:
Crowd Control, Tank, Support, Ranged Dps, Melee Dps.
Okay...so it's not THAT much different...but support is more fun and "super hero" like, and Crowd Control is a role entirely unto itself. Then there's Mastermind (Pet dps) and other roles, although they're just hybrids.
To be honest, I don't think it's tiresome or milked dry. There is only so much you can do in a game that is solely about combat. You can take damage, you can give damage, or you can heal damage. When damage is the only thing that matters-- of course there are only 3 roles.
And no, I do not think a game with only DPS roles is somehow "better". It's not the roles, but how you design the roles. IMO it doesn't matter how many or how few types of characters there are. It matters if the game is fun, and what those roles are like.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning, but I am VERY sick of tankhealerdps. It sounds so silly, and its breaking my immersion big time. Maybe I was just a newbie and didn't know any better, but these words were not very common 6-7 years ago and it was such a good time. I just hate to be called a tank, or dps, it just sounds cold and feels wrong. Not sure what could replace it though.
These words didn't even cross my mind when I played games like baldurs gate, and that was great.
GW2.
that is all.
For class based games, the only thing I would change is bringing back real Crowd Control roles like in EQ.
Tank, Healer, CC, DPS was much more fun IMO.
completely agree 100%
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
How about
Tank= meat shield
Healer= Meat
DPS= squishy
Sorta the same thing
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.