Sorry, never going near that title for several reasons, but by far the bigest reason is this: SOE.
They can go to hell.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I can't talk for other people. I will talk for myself. I WANT A GAME WITH DEPTH.....DEEP MEANINGFUL CRAFTING(a la Vanguard)....housing....realm vs realm conflict.
I feel people derisively call people "old school' for wanting a huge, deep(non mainstream) world, with signifigantly more complexity than the average mmog.The only game I have found that approaches this description is Vanguard(I would love to learn of others).VG is certainly not a game for everyone.It does not compete with light/casual games like Rift or WOW.It does bring to the desktop elements other games choose to not have.
Answering the Op directly.For me...HECK YES I want more games like VG and what some call "old school".
(Yes...I currently play VG because I have not found an alternative that has some of the elements I'm looking for in a game)
The first major blow to EQ1 was not WoW but an expac called Gates of Discord.
For months or even years a tiny minority posted endlessly on the forums that they wanted "the fear" back. They wanted to go back to long corpse runs, long travel times, monsters that hit mudflated toons like trucks. They wanted every session to feel like running from Qeynos to Freeport with a double helping of Kithicor.
SOE obliged and designed GoD accordingly. When it launched there was such a huge backlash and massive player exodus that SOE again demonstrated their lack of insight by personally inviting a bunch of uberguilds to a real life "Summit".
Uberguilds talked, SOE listened and then WoW went into stress test.
For the record I'm actually in favor of some kind of advancement system that allows players to select the overall difficulty of their experience and allow both hardcore and normal players to enjoy and coexist in the same game.
The backlash was due to the entire expansion only being for raiders that had completed PoP. Only a tiny number of guilds had enough gear to touch the beginning instances of the expansion. Most people were already pretty angry about PoP as well since nearly the entire expansion was for raiders but groupers could still get some advancement out of it. PoP might have made people less grumpy if casual guilds were allowed to advance but the keying/access processes pretty much prevented that.
The summit... yeah that was a smart move. They only invited guild leaders from the uber guilds finishing off any good will they had left from the main player base (players mostly seemed to willing to let them fix things before this). Woody from GU comics, who was no where near hardcore, was later invited as a "good faith" gesture when everyone found out who was invited to the summit.
SOE completely misread everything.
This is how I remember it, PoP and its keying process made many people frustrated and many people quit. Before PoP, difficulty determined whether or not you would enter a zone (with a couple exceptions like VP and Sleepers Tomb).
Once the main guild group was keyed up it was very hard to talk them into redoing the content (Can't blame them...by this time you were sick of this content) to key up newcommers or returning guild folk. So either people tried to key up by a pickup raid or quit due to frustration of not being able to join their guild on raid night.
Horrible design IMO
Luclin began the mass "teired" key/flag access non-sense, but there was enough raid bosses outside of keyed areas to keep most raiding guilds happy (not so much the group people though and SOE forgot how important these people are to the raiding guilds). There was quite a lot of 2nd teir guilds on my server that self destructed in luclin because they could not advance for the reasons you mention. Not to mention the burn out that Luclin caused and the top end guilds sucking up every capable person. PoP just multiplied the problem to insane levels.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I would take a game like UO/AC1 at release in a heart beat, with updated graphics of course.
Keep the gameplay the way it was at release where I had to make my own arrows, and potions, and food, and there were no quest trackers because you actually had to hit up the town criers in each town to get info in bits and pieces to figure out quests, and a skill system, no classes, etc, etc.
I'd be there in a minute if a game like that was ever released.
Hell I'd probably still be playing AC1 if they'd fix their antiquated net code.
So, is it really oldschool MMOs people want? .... What are your thoughts on this?
As a gamer even with the little time I have to play MMOs I'd rather play an old-school MMO. I can't speak for the rest of the players and we can never know if a majority or a minority of players would also enjoy a game with that level of depth, complexity, and social interaction because I'd be willing to bet that a majority of MMO gamers these days have never encountered such a game.
Until an old-school MMO with as much polish as WoW is released it is impossible to say.
I always think in my head that i want to go back to the glory days. Grinding all day for 1/2 a lvl in the same sport for 10-15 hours. Great groups & community.
But i was also in my early 20's then and did not have a family or kids who want me attention. So while the gamer in me says yes. The reality for me is now no
Take Vanguard for example. A great "sequel" to Everquest, a lot more so than Everquest 2...and a nice open world. A great oldschool style MMO.
You say "BUT IT HAD A BAD RELEASE!"
And I say
"An icecream man dropped my icecream and I will never buy icecream again!"
Best analogy I could think of on the second. Yeah, bad release, so what? Its better now....WAY better.
Yeah, and SoE doesn't develop anything for it. Despite its bad release, and launching days behind the first WoW expansion, it sold amazingly well. The bad launch killed the initial player base, and the bad support killed the future player base. So yes, your analogy is bad. People DO want oldschool (real) MMORPGs. God knows we don't need a 100th WoW clone.
Then factions were removed, fast travel was added, the gear system was changed, the death penalty was reduced, the identificacation of boss levels were made easier, the "trial of the Isle" was added making the starting areas obsolete, and many many other things added or removed....all to try to attract the WoW crowd.
Many many "old school" players left and/or voiced their opinions about this but the Devs thought this would save the game and paid no attention to their customers....the people athat actually were playing and paying.
Vanguard is just another game right now. Actually....it's less than hat since nobody is actually working on the game anymore.
So....to the OP....I want an "Old School Game"....but it will be a niche game, and I doubt anyone wants to spend the cash to make a game that might only grab 50-100k subs or so.
i think what kills alot of games is the fickle player base of mmos. They like everything shiny and new that comes out the run to it abandon a great game that may not have had a good launch and then when they come back and see the game langiusing complain that something should be done. judt once I'd like to see people stand by a game give ti the supoport it needs and stop constantly abandoning things....it's kind of a statement of how we run our society in general
Then factions were removed, fast travel was added, the gear system was changed, the death penalty was reduced, the identificacation of boss levels were made easier, the "trial of the Isle" was added making the starting areas obsolete, and many many other things added or removed....all to try to attract the WoW crowd. Yup, and it didn't work. Because WoW players just want to play WoW, and the morons at SoE who slowly killed this game didn't realize why all their "changes" did more harm than good.
Many many "old school" players left and/or voiced their opinions about this but the Devs thought this would save the game and paid no attention to their customers....the people athat actually were playing and paying.
Vanguard is just another game right now. Actually....it's less than hat since nobody is actually working on the game anymore. Well, even though its been gutted, its still lightyears ahead of throwaway games like WoW.
So....to the OP....I want an "Old School Game"....but it will be a niche game, and I doubt anyone wants to spend the cash to make a game that might only grab 50-100k subs or so. Vanguard grabbed 300k+ on launch day. There are more and more WoW burnouts every day, more and more people who miss EQ. Very possible to have a non niche game.
If SoE would sell Vanguard to someone that wanted to develop and maintain it, I would be willing to play again.
I loved Vanguard, but I played on the PvP server, and it got finished off when they announced they wouldn't give support to PvP anymore, until they had PvE 'finished'....Which everyone took as never and quickly left.
So if someone was willing to actually make expansions, update things, and treat it like something they liked, not just something to load up on a server and have some guy on his lunch break make sure the server is still up...Heck yeah I would play again.
The only thing I have really been playing since I left VG was messing around on my old UO account, old client also.
If one thinks the posters here on this forum represents even 10% of what the MMO players really buy (not 'want' as want/buy are diff, just ask any marketing guy) the 'sandbox' games (DarkFall, EVE etc) would have millions of subs in total.
But they don't, so the logical conclusion is that yes, some want the oldschool MMOs but it is not a 'large' amount of people.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
But who's gonna bring up the +50 mill to make a modern oldschool mmo that won't appeal to the masses?
Calling people nerds on a MMORPG forum? Well done.
And it doesn't take anywhere remotely close to 50M to make a good game. The best games in the genre were made with 30 devs on a budget with limited tech. They could do so much more today. 50M would be needed only if you wanted to dump half your funds into marketing and none into development. There are a lot more oldschool MMORPG gamers than modern MMO gamers. You have, the 1 million or so oldschool gamers, all broken up with no place to go. You have about 1 million modern MMO gamers boucning from MMO to MMO. And you have the rest, non MMO gamers that stay with WoW and only WoW.
Originally posted by Tinklepee Originally posted by Forumfall The people? Hell no. Whiny veteran mmorpg nerds? Indeed. But who's gonna bring up the +50 mill to make a modern oldschool mmo that won't appeal to the masses?
internet tuff guy not fraid of nything.. have fun with wow
He's right though. You don't invest 50 million dollars into a game with the expectation of only attracting 10,000 people to play it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes, If for no other reason than the community. Old school mmo's community are what made them great, the games could suck but the community could hold it together.
Comments
A new MMO that keeps it's roots. Yeah. I do want that. Suits don't want that.
So this thread is in truth a Vanguard promo?
Sorry, never going near that title for several reasons, but by far the bigest reason is this: SOE.
They can go to hell.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I can't talk for other people. I will talk for myself. I WANT A GAME WITH DEPTH.....DEEP MEANINGFUL CRAFTING(a la Vanguard)....housing....realm vs realm conflict.
I feel people derisively call people "old school' for wanting a huge, deep(non mainstream) world, with signifigantly more complexity than the average mmog.The only game I have found that approaches this description is Vanguard(I would love to learn of others).VG is certainly not a game for everyone.It does not compete with light/casual games like Rift or WOW.It does bring to the desktop elements other games choose to not have.
Answering the Op directly.For me...HECK YES I want more games like VG and what some call "old school".
(Yes...I currently play VG because I have not found an alternative that has some of the elements I'm looking for in a game)
That can't be the end! I wanna toss in some McQuaid bashing.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Luclin began the mass "teired" key/flag access non-sense, but there was enough raid bosses outside of keyed areas to keep most raiding guilds happy (not so much the group people though and SOE forgot how important these people are to the raiding guilds). There was quite a lot of 2nd teir guilds on my server that self destructed in luclin because they could not advance for the reasons you mention. Not to mention the burn out that Luclin caused and the top end guilds sucking up every capable person. PoP just multiplied the problem to insane levels.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
short answer yes Archeage is really peeking my interest this is what DnL should have been.
http://www.archeage.com/en/pds/media
Agreed
As a gamer even with the little time I have to play MMOs I'd rather play an old-school MMO. I can't speak for the rest of the players and we can never know if a majority or a minority of players would also enjoy a game with that level of depth, complexity, and social interaction because I'd be willing to bet that a majority of MMO gamers these days have never encountered such a game.
Until an old-school MMO with as much polish as WoW is released it is impossible to say.
OMG.
Seriously, how on earth can you possibly ask such an obviously stupid question ?
Vanguards last patch was at the end of 2009, and since then it only saw a single hotfix and a server merge.
You can still play it, but thats all.
All I can say is enough of the single player games in cooperative mode, bring back the virtual worlds!
I always think in my head that i want to go back to the glory days. Grinding all day for 1/2 a lvl in the same sport for 10-15 hours. Great groups & community.
But i was also in my early 20's then and did not have a family or kids who want me attention. So while the gamer in me says yes. The reality for me is now no
Yeah, and SoE doesn't develop anything for it. Despite its bad release, and launching days behind the first WoW expansion, it sold amazingly well. The bad launch killed the initial player base, and the bad support killed the future player base. So yes, your analogy is bad. People DO want oldschool (real) MMORPGs. God knows we don't need a 100th WoW clone.
Yeah, they should have smoking in games, and occasional permadeath to some random character that smoked in the game, just to add to the feel.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Vanguard WAS "old schooll" at launch.
Then factions were removed, fast travel was added, the gear system was changed, the death penalty was reduced, the identificacation of boss levels were made easier, the "trial of the Isle" was added making the starting areas obsolete, and many many other things added or removed....all to try to attract the WoW crowd.
Many many "old school" players left and/or voiced their opinions about this but the Devs thought this would save the game and paid no attention to their customers....the people athat actually were playing and paying.
Vanguard is just another game right now. Actually....it's less than hat since nobody is actually working on the game anymore.
So....to the OP....I want an "Old School Game"....but it will be a niche game, and I doubt anyone wants to spend the cash to make a game that might only grab 50-100k subs or so.
i think what kills alot of games is the fickle player base of mmos. They like everything shiny and new that comes out the run to it abandon a great game that may not have had a good launch and then when they come back and see the game langiusing complain that something should be done. judt once I'd like to see people stand by a game give ti the supoport it needs and stop constantly abandoning things....it's kind of a statement of how we run our society in general
so say we all
If SoE would sell Vanguard to someone that wanted to develop and maintain it, I would be willing to play again.
I loved Vanguard, but I played on the PvP server, and it got finished off when they announced they wouldn't give support to PvP anymore, until they had PvE 'finished'....Which everyone took as never and quickly left.
So if someone was willing to actually make expansions, update things, and treat it like something they liked, not just something to load up on a server and have some guy on his lunch break make sure the server is still up...Heck yeah I would play again.
The only thing I have really been playing since I left VG was messing around on my old UO account, old client also.
Define 'people'
If one thinks the posters here on this forum represents even 10% of what the MMO players really buy (not 'want' as want/buy are diff, just ask any marketing guy) the 'sandbox' games (DarkFall, EVE etc) would have millions of subs in total.
But they don't, so the logical conclusion is that yes, some want the oldschool MMOs but it is not a 'large' amount of people.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The people? Hell no.
Whiny veteran mmorpg nerds? Indeed.
But who's gonna bring up the +50 mill to make a modern oldschool mmo that won't appeal to the masses?
Calling people nerds on a MMORPG forum? Well done.
And it doesn't take anywhere remotely close to 50M to make a good game. The best games in the genre were made with 30 devs on a budget with limited tech. They could do so much more today. 50M would be needed only if you wanted to dump half your funds into marketing and none into development. There are a lot more oldschool MMORPG gamers than modern MMO gamers. You have, the 1 million or so oldschool gamers, all broken up with no place to go. You have about 1 million modern MMO gamers boucning from MMO to MMO. And you have the rest, non MMO gamers that stay with WoW and only WoW.
internet tuff guy not fraid of nything.. have fun with wow
https://albiononline.com/?ref=7MN1FPEZ82
I'll split the gold with you.
He's right though. You don't invest 50 million dollars into a game with the expectation of only attracting 10,000 people to play it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
no duh... name someone who has?
https://albiononline.com/?ref=7MN1FPEZ82
I'll split the gold with you.
Yes, If for no other reason than the community. Old school mmo's community are what made them great, the games could suck but the community could hold it together.
the majority of people that play never played an old school mmorpg.