How hard would it have been for this company to make one static entrance (like they already have with police stations) where the player goes into some abandoned warehouse and... bingo!
The player has his OWN individual hideout or command center!
Player could customize it any way they want by taking trophies they've won in Arenaball or by defeating various villians in combat missions. I mean, the game is all about costumes anyways so why not have a place to store all your costumes you've won with maybe three dummies in the hideout?
The player could click on them and instantly have them on as opposed to the interface as it is now with 'switch this piece, now switch that piece, now put this weapon, now put that weapon'. One loadout dummy for three sets of costumes. Simple ideas.
These people have no imagination whatsoever when you look at this whole game. Maybe they are good coders idk, thats not my thing) but they sure are lacking in the idea department for content. I think any basic focus group testing with anyone who's ever read a comic could have revealed way more ideas than they got in this game.
I mean, it's such a simple idea with player hideouts/centers, it's makes you wonder why they didn't come up with things like that.
Yea I love this idea. I have missed my house in UO since I quit playing it years ago. But it was alot of fun decorating the house and finding new stuff to put in it. I even liked it when your friends could come check out what you had and what you made from different items....(old man voice)Oh the good old day.
If DCU achieved both of its goals of being an mmo and an action game, then threads like this wouldn't be common place. Threads about the game not being worth a subscription fee would not be commonplace. Continually pointing at the games combat system as its only real grace just reinforces threads like this.
DCU certainly has features of both MMO and Action game, but simply having those doesn't mean it excels at both of those at the same time. Is DCU such a great action game that it is worth $15 a month compared to some other console action games that don't have monthly fees? Is the mmo side so great that it offers as much content as any other $15 a month mmo? See where it falls short?
5 years and $50 million dollars and you get 2 cities that combined are not ever as large as a handful of zones in another game and content that can be consumed in the free trial period at a casual pace.
If you don't understand it now, its likely you never will. I've never played an MMO with combat even remotely close to this, not Phantasy Star Online whos combos were all stuck at three, not DDO. Threads like this spawn from a very vocal minority as many of the views on this site do. Likely how WoW is popular, yet the most vocal on here despise it. This is the kind of community that lives here, not normal gamers, but a vast amount of players who will complain no matter the game.
People get ideas in their head about what things are supposed to be by misinterpreting the acronyms, MMO and RPG, and its apparent there is at least one person here that doesn't understand the basis of an Action Game, or a hybridization of genres. The fact is, there will be people who pay for an extra month of play, or two, or three, or five. Features don't make a game an MMO, only the ability to play with hundreds of players online all at the same time is what makes a game an MMO.
Now again, you sit here and say how small the world is (when in comparison to the other 2 superhero games on the market, its huge, and varied) and you complain how the game has nothing to do because YOU don't see things to do in the game, but that doesn't mean others won't. People on this site try to make it sound like they feel sorry for people who take enjoyment in this game and willingly pay for their time to play it like they know better. The only truth is that the people paying for the game are doing so because they find longevity in it, and are having fun and enjoy the system, and its becoming increasingly sad that so many on this site try to stop that, and even worse that they can't bother trying to see it.
There are other games out there that have "more to do", but we aren't playing them. More to do doesn't add depth, it doesn't add complexity, it doesn't require any more thinking, it just adds time spent doing the same things. Some people want to spend hundreds of hours working on a crafting skill so they can make some leather pants for an elf one day, but thats not complex... I'd dare say thats masochistic, but some people like it. I've done all that, and I'm happy about the change in a combat system that requires far more skill then just reading a build guide online and executing it.
Yea I love this idea. I have missed my house in UO since I quit playing it years ago. But it was alot of fun decorating the house and finding new stuff to put in it. I even liked it when your friends could come check out what you had and what you made from different items....(old man voice)Oh the good old day.
The funny thing about this idea, is that they can STILL do it, lol. I mean after all, it's just an instance basically where one person goes into a room. Again, a non-coder like me can think this up so I really don't see what they do at DCUO.. maybe play with action figures to work out the physics or something.
But the DCUO apparently doesn't have any type of imagination for this. I'm pretty sure most of them are happy enough in the arenas and police station battles, because that's all they really talk about.
I hate to say it, but what this game needed was a Paul Barnett type walking around in the backrooms jabbing these people with a hot poker.
That guy is a moron, but he's got some good ideas about gaming even though he doesn't know coding, and I'm sure we would have saw better stuff content wise.
Features don't make a game an MMO, only the ability to play with hundreds of players online all at the same time is what makes a game an MMO.
I think you're being semantical here again. You know what he means when he says "MMO" as I think everyone who posts here does.
By your definition, Poker Online would be a MMO, which while it may qualify it in that:
A. You have to play it online and
B. Many people play it all at the same time....
...it's not a MMO. Why? Because it lacks MMO features. Again, which this does. No crafting, no auction house, no housing, no minigames or other community activities. Heck, the community can't even TALK to each other with this chat system.
In the same way that Poker Online doesn't qualify as a "MMO", neither does this game really. It's a bastard child.. half in one world (consoles) and half in another (traditional MMOs)
Putting Superman and Batman in the game doesn't really make this a MMO. It's the features.
I don't understand what people think is shallow about this game? There are so many weapon/powerset/movement combos that you can find a ton of variety and the cities seem pretty extensive to me so far.
Computer games are not really deep stuff anyways. Shallow isn't bad, reading books about petry or advanced physics get rather boring if you do it all the time.
But calling DCU more shallow than Diablo, Wow or whatever is just shades of gray.
Let's not pretend that playing any computer games is "deep".
Please stop. You always write well constructed replies. Your responses are very reasonable.
At some point, you have to realize the problem with responding with just text in this fashion:
You fail to see the glazed over eyes of the people you're responding to.
The very people complaining about depth in a game, ironicly also give shallow examples and have narrow views.
Save your sanity, sir. The vocal minority apparently lacks the abilities that most humans enjoy: Being able to Adapt, Improvise and Overcome.
While I know you're right, I try and give some people on this site the benefit of the doubt and try and rationalize or compromise with them. I respect some of those that have been here a while, but apparently that can only take you so far. I suppose I'll dial it down a bit, what happens with the game will happen regardless of the beliefs of the same select users stating the same things for no other purpose then to prove a moot point. The game is what it is and those who play it and enjoy it will continue to do so.
If DCU achieved both of its goals of being an mmo and an action game, then threads like this wouldn't be common place. Threads about the game not being worth a subscription fee would not be commonplace. Continually pointing at the games combat system as its only real grace just reinforces threads like this.
DCU certainly has features of both MMO and Action game, but simply having those doesn't mean it excels at both of those at the same time. Is DCU such a great action game that it is worth $15 a month compared to some other console action games that don't have monthly fees? Is the mmo side so great that it offers as much content as any other $15 a month mmo? See where it falls short?
5 years and $50 million dollars and you get 2 cities that combined are not ever as large as a handful of zones in another game and content that can be consumed in the free trial period at a casual pace.
If you don't understand it now, its likely you never will. I've never played an MMO with combat even remotely close to this, not Phantasy Star Online whos combos were all stuck at three, not DDO. Threads like this spawn from a very vocal minority as many of the views on this site do. Likely how WoW is popular, yet the most vocal on here despise it. This is the kind of community that lives here, not normal gamers, but a vast amount of players who will complain no matter the game.
People get ideas in their head about what things are supposed to be by misinterpreting the acronyms, MMO and RPG, and its apparent there is at least one person here that doesn't understand the basis of an Action Game, or a hybridization of genres. The fact is, there will be people who pay for an extra month of play, or two, or three, or five. Features don't make a game an MMO, only the ability to play with hundreds of players online all at the same time is what makes a game an MMO.
Now again, you sit here and say how small the world is (when in comparison to the other 2 superhero games on the market, its huge, and varied) and you complain how the game has nothing to do because YOU don't see things to do in the game, but that doesn't mean others won't. People on this site try to make it sound like they feel sorry for people who take enjoyment in this game and willingly pay for their time to play it like they know better. The only truth is that the people paying for the game are doing so because they find longevity in it, and are having fun and enjoy the system, and its becoming increasingly sad that so many on this site try to stop that, and even worse that they can't bother trying to see it.
There are other games out there that have "more to do", but we aren't playing them. More to do doesn't add depth, it doesn't add complexity, it doesn't require any more thinking, it just adds time spent doing the same things. Some people want to spend hundreds of hours working on a crafting skill so they can make some leather pants for an elf one day, but thats not complex... I'd dare say thats masochistic, but some people like it. I've done all that, and I'm happy about the change in a combat system that requires far more skill then just reading a build guide online and executing it.
you are my DCUO hero, love your posts and your tips, what server are you playing on?
I am on D&G but would totally reroll for the bromance
all kidding aside I do appreciate your input and informative replies to the threads regarding dcuo
Features don't make a game an MMO, only the ability to play with hundreds of players online all at the same time is what makes a game an MMO.
I think you're being semantical here again. You know what he means when he says "MMO" as I think everyone who posts here does.
By your definition, Poker Online would be a MMO, which while it may qualify it in that:
A. You have to play it online and
B. Many people play it all at the same time....
...it's not a MMO. Why? Because it lacks MMO features. Again, which this does. No crafting, no auction house, no housing, no minigames or other community activities. Heck, the community can't even TALK to each other with this chat system.
In the same way that Poker Online doesn't qualify as a "MMO", neither does this game really. It's a bastard child.. half in one world (consoles) and half in another (traditional MMOs)
Putting Superman and Batman in the game doesn't really make this a MMO. It's the features.
Many people playing it at the same time does not count as everyone playing together. In DCUO I can see hundreds of players on my screen at any given moment. in poker, what , you'd have maybe 8? Its obvious you have very skewed views if you don't see this game as being an MMO. Features does not make a game an MMO, nowhere in that acronym is crafting required. CoH didn't have crafting on launch, nor does it have mini games. The game does have a broker, and chatting? Spoken like someone who never truly played the game, the chat is extremely active with people getting GROUPS together to take out large named villains. Just last night I started a raid group to take out clayface, not necessarily because we needed so many people, but because so many people wanted to join me.
This is the kind of "traditional" mentality that will change as more games start going online and you start to see more hybridization of genres. Its been done time and again throughout video game history, and no matter what kind of "traditional" views you decide to hold, all it takes is a simple review from the media to tell you this game is truly an MMO.
you are my DCUO hero, love your posts and your tips, what server are you playing on?
I am on D&G but would totally reroll for the bromance
all kidding aside I do appreciate your input and informative replies to the threads regarding dcuo
/salute
I appreciate the .. support .. I suppose.
I've got another guide coming up, I'll be going through the Area 51 alert and showing people how to complete it, find all the investigations, and then leave with an extra skill point
I'm on Public Enemies, but will be playing on D&G eventually, most likely villain side on D&G. I rarely cross sides on the same server, just gets messy when fighting against league mates.
Lets put it to bed guys, it isn't even worth debating it, this game is exactly an MMO. Its exactly an RPG, and its exactly an Action game.
Agreed to put it to bed. You and I won't see eye/eye on this as you love the game completely and I only liked parts of it.
But not agreed it's an MMO. It's a console game disguised as a MMO, which being a superhero game is rather ironic, lol.
I enjoy the game completely, love is unconditional in my eyes, I had possibly one of the first reviews once the NDA dropped and I never shy away from saying what problems this game has, or what would easily stop me from playing. I try and stay as honest as possible and will answer every question to the best of my knowledge without generalizing.
But on the point of it being an MMO, agree to disagree, sounds fine to me. The game will still be listed under "MMO" when people go to buy it on steam or D2D. I doubt many people will have trouble finding it there.
Leveling: You can hit max level in less than 24 hours time played.
Combat: Clearly designed for a controller with 10 buttons, you can only have 8 abilities equipped. (most mmos have at least 20-30 abilities per class) More abilities = more depth and requires more knowledge of your class and when to use certain abilities.
End game: Raiding, arenas, duos, legends... thats it. everything you do at end game is quened for... you could sit in the hall of doom/hero city and never have a reaosn to leave at level 30.
This game was clearly designed for casual console play not sure why they even released it for PC but im sure they made money off of it and its SOE so nothing new there.
I've not played DCUO but I can say is that more buttons does not in any way or form add any depth at all. On the contrary unless carefully chosen having a lot of abilities can take depth away.
Having a small set of abilities can lead to a lot deeper gameplay then having a ton of them ever can. Take Guild Wars and DotA/HoN/LoL for examples. GW only allows 8 equippable abilities yet I've not encountered an MMO with a deeper, more balanced and carefully designed combat system, granted there's hundreds of possible skills but the whole depth of the GW combat system is decided by having to choose only 8 from all that. DotA/HoN/LoL only feature 4 abilities but they're considered a serious e-sports requiring extensive tactics and skill on a level not needed in an MMO.
Having 30 abilities often leads to mages with fire missile, ice missile, poison missile, lightning missile, arcane missile, rock missile, death missile etc. instead of just a simple magic missile.
More abilities only add depth if they're truly unique abilities instead of just copies of previous ones with a slightly diffirent effect
Again I don't know whether or not DCUO is shallow or not, but I do know that "More abilities = more depth" is a laughable notion.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Having 30 abilities often leads to mages with fire missile, ice missile, poison missile, lightning missile, arcane missile, rock missile, death missile etc. instead of just a simple magic missile.
More abilities only add depth if they're truly unique abilities instead of just copies of previous ones with a slightly diffirent effect
Totally incorrect.
A mage with just a simple "magic missile" vs a melee with simple "magic resistance" buffs and resistances loses. Every time.
That's why mages have fire, ice, poison, lightning, arcane, rock, death missiles, etc. Because that's where real strategy and gameplay comes in; not in clickfest mode. Clickfest mode just hit "block" or "roll".
Do I spec my rogue with fire resistance or ice resistance? How much do I put in arcane defense and how much do I put in to lightning defense? Should I use fire arrows vs this mage or is he stacked with high fire resistance?
The type of game you are describing with a mage with just a 'simple magic missle' sounds like this:
Abilities don't have to be 'unique' in order to be effective as long as strategy comes into play. DCUO is proof of that. But having more variations of a type of spell gives players more depth to consider.
There are only SO many unique skills, the rest are just repeats of the other ones basically. Fire tanking? Yeah, all your spells are doing fire damage with one doing more fire damage and one doing fire damage with a knockback. Another is fire damage with a 'suck in' effect while another is fire damage with a 'enmity' boost. Not really that unique, is it?
A mage with just a simple "magic missile" vs a melee with simple "magic resistance" buffs and resistances loses. Every time.
That's why mages have fire, ice, poison, lightning, arcane, rock, death missiles, etc. Because that's where real strategy and gameplay comes in; not in clickfest mode. Clickfest mode just hit "block" or "roll".
Do I spec my rogue with fire resistance or ice resistance? How much do I put in arcane defense and how much do I put in to lightning defense? Should I use fire arrows vs this mage or is he stacked with high fire resistance?
The type of game you are describing with a mage with just a 'simple magic missle' sounds like this:
Abilities don't have to be 'unique' in order to be effective as long as strategy comes into play. DCUO is proof of that. But having more variations of a type of spell gives players more depth to consider.
There are only SO many unique skills, the rest are just repeats of the other ones basically. Fire tanking? Yeah, all your spells are doing fire damage with one doing more fire damage and one doing fire damage with a knockback. Another is fire damage with a 'suck in' effect while another is fire damage with a 'enmity' boost. Not really that unique, is it?
How is it diffirent with all those spell variants?
You simply apply some basic logic ( fire is great against ice elementals? ) and some game knowledge ( this and that epic gear gives frost resistance so better use lightning. ) and you're right back to that same button bashing you had earlier.
Because mages have so many variants decisions for gear are pretty easy. You simply try to get your average resists as high as possible since you can't possibly predict what's going to be used against you anyway. Save for a select few NPC encounters for which you'll now have to grind a totally seperate set of gear!
I'm not talking about a mage with just 1 spell. I'm talking about a mage with 10 unique spells instead of 10x 10 copies. When you start adding copies you're merely cluttering your UI and creating artificial depth as players now have to spend extra time managing key-bindings and remembering NPC resists...
And yes fire damage with a suck-in vs fire damage with knockback is unique when compared to fire bolt vs shadow bolt. Each of the fire spells provides an effect that can not be obtained through the other spell. The first spell can not knockback and the second can not suck-in. Fire bolt and shadowbolt generally both deal damage and nothing more, the fire may cause a very short duration DoT but it's still damage.
The 2 fire spells are tactical because they apply in diffirent situations. Sucking in a stronger melee opponent is stupid just like knocking away a squishy character is. The other way around is smart. In 95% of the situations where you should cast firebolt you can just as easily cast a shadowbolt ( there honestly aren't any games where resists give such a huge advantages, about the biggest is EvE ( any other games where you can get 90%+ resist on one thing and 10% on another ) and even there PvP means highest average is best. )
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
If you don't understand it now, its likely you never will. I've never played an MMO with combat even remotely close to this, not Phantasy Star Online whos combos were all stuck at three, not DDO. Threads like this spawn from a very vocal minority as many of the views on this site do. Likely how WoW is popular, yet the most vocal on here despise it. This is the kind of community that lives here, not normal gamers, but a vast amount of players who will complain no matter the game.
People get ideas in their head about what things are supposed to be by misinterpreting the acronyms, MMO and RPG, and its apparent there is at least one person here that doesn't understand the basis of an Action Game, or a hybridization of genres. The fact is, there will be people who pay for an extra month of play, or two, or three, or five. Features don't make a game an MMO, only the ability to play with hundreds of players online all at the same time is what makes a game an MMO.
Now again, you sit here and say how small the world is (when in comparison to the other 2 superhero games on the market, its huge, and varied) and you complain how the game has nothing to do because YOU don't see things to do in the game, but that doesn't mean others won't. People on this site try to make it sound like they feel sorry for people who take enjoyment in this game and willingly pay for their time to play it like they know better. The only truth is that the people paying for the game are doing so because they find longevity in it, and are having fun and enjoy the system, and its becoming increasingly sad that so many on this site try to stop that, and even worse that they can't bother trying to see it.
There are other games out there that have "more to do", but we aren't playing them. More to do doesn't add depth, it doesn't add complexity, it doesn't require any more thinking, it just adds time spent doing the same things. Some people want to spend hundreds of hours working on a crafting skill so they can make some leather pants for an elf one day, but thats not complex... I'd dare say thats masochistic, but some people like it. I've done all that, and I'm happy about the change in a combat system that requires far more skill then just reading a build guide online and executing it.
I'm going to point out two recurring themes in your responses that I think do not serve the topic.
1) You continually fall back to the combat system of the game as if that single thing makes that game have incredible depth. Most people have noted the combat system is different and interesting, but BEYOND that there isn't much to the game. In fact several people have said that there isn't much to the game beyond the combat system and that is why the game doesn't have depth. You can point out all the combat you want, but it is still just 1 thing.
2) You keep judging people who don't "understand" or "get it" about your view as if they are somehow the problem. Lets not resort to internet pyschology to make points or try to discredit someone elses view ok? If a large portion of people here and on the beta forums have come to the conclusion that the game lacks depth, lacks features, content, options and as a result is a shallow game or not worth a monthly fee that doesn't mean something is wrong with them. It just means people find the game lacking in several areas in the field it is trying to compete in.
This isn't saying the game isn't fun or doesn't have some nice features. I'm sure plenty of people will enjoy it for a while. Some for a very long time. That really doesn't change the reality of what DCU offers though.
How is it diffirent with all those spell variants?
I'm not talking about a mage with just 1 spell.
Originally posted by gobla
Having 30 abilities often leads to mages with fire missile, ice missile, poison missile, lightning missile, arcane missile, rock missile, death missile etc. instead of just a simple magic missile.
Yes, you were. Changing the argument now to fit your position doesn't work.
In a MMO where the Fire specced mages were king, people stacked higher elemental resistances vs those because on average, they'd see more of them. Now this was due to fire being more damaging or requiring less mana for mages to use.. whatever.
Then one smart mage realized this and started specccing for the slightly less powerful arcane spells. Now 8/10 times he met someone, he was mowing them down because they were speeced for another type of mage. Not your simple "one magic type" mage. Soon, opponents realized they couldn't just go fire defense and started going the other way with more arcane defense, so that lowers their fire and something else.
Then the ice mages start to see they do more damage so it's more of them.
With your 'simple magic missle' method, there is none of this. People just spec vs one thing and little strategy is involved. Cookie cutter builds so basic that every game people log in it's "Hey guys, what's the best build for a mage?"
Your idea of a game? it's easy to answer because there's no imagination or strategy and people say "Doesn't matter. It's just one magic spell. Stack this." We have too many MMOs like that already.
How is it diffirent with all those spell variants?
I'm not talking about a mage with just 1 spell.
Originally posted by gobla
Having 30 abilities often leads to mages with fire missile, ice missile, poison missile, lightning missile, arcane missile, rock missile, death missile etc. instead of just a simple magic missile.
Yes, you were. Changing the argument now to fit your position doesn't work.
In a MMO where the Fire specced mages were king, people stacked higher elemental resistances vs those because on average, they'd see more of them. Now this was due to fire being more damaging or requiring less mana for mages to use.. whatever.
Then one smart mage realized this and started specccing for the slightly less powerful arcane spells. Now 8/10 times he met someone, he was mowing them down because they were speeced for another type of mage. Not your simple "one magic type" mage. Soon, opponents realized they couldn't just go fire defense and started going the other way with more arcane defense, so that lowers their fire and something else.
Then the ice mages start to see they do more damage so it's more of them.
With your 'simple magic missle' method, there is none of this. People just spec vs one thing and little strategy is involved. Cookie cutter builds so basic that every game people log in it's "Hey guys, what's the best build for a mage?"
Your idea of a game? it's easy to answer because there's no imagination or strategy and people say "Doesn't matter. It's just one magic spell. Stack this." We have too many MMOs like that already.
Right.... because in every single game ever made the mage class only ever has access to a 100 variants of *element* missile spells and no other spells at all.
I'm saying replace all those spells that do X damage with about a 2 second cast time to a single spell.
And honestly? Resists? You honestly believe that it's fine to create a fire damage spell doing 100 damage with a 2 sec cast for 50 mana and an ice damage with 75 damage with 2.5 sec cast for 100 mana? And just tell the players that it's fine since most players will start stacking fire resists anyway so it balances out?
Just look at physical damage. All physical damage is of resist type: armor. You honestly believe that melee classes are inherently reduced to a single spec because unlike mages they don't have to face half a dozen of resists?
I've yet to see flaming letters across the sky spreading the divine message that all specialisation paths in MMOs must have diffirent resists.
Instead of designing mages with specialisation paths that in the end all do damage with some minor side-effects ( slow for ice, burning for fire etc. ) why not create mages with smaller but meaningfull paths?
A fire line that does single target damage uncomparable to any other line but nothing else. An ice line with not much damage but some incredible slows, stuns and freezes. An air line that provides great AoE effects but nothing more. An earth line that provides amazing defense and support abilities but hardly anything directly offensive.
And before you start complaining that this will force mages into only a single role remember that there's such a thing as hybrid specs....
Instead of a fire line which is almost a copy of the ice line but with chilled effects replaced with burning effects and freezes replaced with stuns you now have 2 unique lines that provide totally diffirent party roles and probably an action bar that allows the same number of effects but instead of being spread over 50 skills that mostly do the same you're now faced with 20 or so unique skills.
If you have trouble imagining what such a system would look like just look at Dragon Age Origins. Each spell line had a grand total of 4 spells but you're hopefully not going to claim that that game didn't have tactical in-depth combat?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
For an MMO that just launched, its pretty freakin' decent. And plays REALLY well on the PS3. Loving it so far.
They've promised us content updates. MMOs shouldn't even be judged until a year or so after their release but DCUO is on the right way here.
Only problem I have with it is there should have been some kind of a death penality, would have made the PvP intense. I don't know why anyone would play in a PvE in this game.
If you have trouble imagining what such a system would look like just look at Dragon Age Origins. Each spell line had a grand total of 4 spells but you're hopefully not going to claim that that game didn't have tactical in-depth combat?
And before you start complaining that this will force mages into only a single role remember that there's such a thing as hybrid specs....
I find it appropriate that you're discussing this subject and bringing up as proof.. a console game. Since in my mind, DCUO is a deeper console game anyways.
There is a reason there are only so many spells in Dragon Age. It's a console game. The game's designs are limited to that platform because an Xbox, PS3 or Wii only has so much processing and memory going on in there. That game was tailored to that media due to limitations, not because 'less is more'. Why do you think DCUO is so small and so shallow?
MMOs (real MMOs) have way more to draw upon. There is so much more than can be done with multiple skills and trees. It's pretty stupid to have a huge canvas and just draw a stick figure on it, when you can use a palette full with different paints.. not just blue.
I think hybrid specs are fabulous actually. That's why Rift is so intriguing. Tons of different souls that can be mixed in with many classes. There is the potential for a huge amount of interesting PvP battles with that system. But under your system you seem to prefer (limited skills), a game like Rift wouldn't even exist because you don't like how the skills are SO complex and there's just too many.
In Rift, you can be a mass dps nuking mage, or switch specs and be a mass debuffing/dps mage, or switch specs and be a dps/healing mage. Switch one more time and be a buffing/dps mage. This is not possible with the small skillsets in DCUO nor ones that you have advocated earlier. DCUO is smaller than even WoW's limited trees and skill capacities for God's sake.
You're either a tank or a dpser. You're either a Controller or a dpser. You're either a healer or a dpser. That's it period no matter what you pick. Too boringly simple. That's why people say I like it for a month (me, many others) but then it gets ZZZZZ.
Been playing for a few days now. Its fun but you really see "STILL IN BETA" all over it. There is a gold seller been posting none stop in chat for 24hours. Yes they know about it why they cant stop it is behond me. Leveling is SO easy. Level 12 in under a day just doing the quests. The fights like "area 51" were hard at the end and that was fun. But classes are so unblanced.
For me when the DEV's are NO WHERE to be find.. no GM's.. try to CALL about any problems you have. Then I think of RIFT and what I LOVE about RIFT is .. you KNOW the DEV's are there.. they talk to you and fix things right away.. DCU went with SOE. So far for me DCU all classes are way to much the same.. only COLORS make you different.
Been playing for a few days now. Its fun but you really see "STILL IN BETA" all over it. There is a gold seller been posting none stop in chat for 24hours. Yes they know about it why they cant stop it is behond me. Leveling is SO easy. Level 12 in under a day just doing the quests. The fights like "area 51" were hard at the end and that was fun. But classes are so unblanced.
For me when the DEV's are NO WHERE to be find.. no GM's.. try to CALL about any problems you have. Then I think of RIFT and what I LOVE about RIFT is .. you KNOW the DEV's are there.. they talk to you and fix things right away.. DCU went with SOE. So far for me DCU all classes are way to much the same.. only COLORS make you different.
yea alot of mmos seem to have a rough time with launch and is understandable, I'm eager to see how the game will turn out once things get under control.
If you have trouble imagining what such a system would look like just look at Dragon Age Origins. Each spell line had a grand total of 4 spells but you're hopefully not going to claim that that game didn't have tactical in-depth combat?
And before you start complaining that this will force mages into only a single role remember that there's such a thing as hybrid specs....
I find it appropriate that you're discussing this subject and bringing up as proof.. a console game. Since in my mind, DCUO is a deeper console game anyways.
There is a reason there are only so many spells in Dragon Age. It's a console game. The game's designs are limited to that platform because an Xbox, PS3 or Wii only has so much processing and memory going on in there. That game was tailored to that media due to limitations, not because 'less is more'. Why do you think DCUO is so small and so shallow?
MMOs (real MMOs) have way more to draw upon. There is so much more than can be done with multiple skills and trees. It's pretty stupid to have a huge canvas and just draw a stick figure on it, when you can use a palette full with different paints.. not just blue.
I think hybrid specs are fabulous actually. That's why Rift is so intriguing. Tons of different souls that can be mixed in with many classes. There is the potential for a huge amount of interesting PvP battles with that system. But under your system you seem to prefer (limited skills), a game like Rift wouldn't even exist because you don't like how the skills are SO complex and there's just too many.
In Rift, you can be a mass dps nuking mage, or switch specs and be a mass debuffing/dps mage, or switch specs and be a dps/healing mage. Switch one more time and be a buffing/dps mage. This is not possible with the small skillsets in DCUO nor ones that you have advocated earlier. DCUO is smaller than even WoW's limited trees and skill capacities for God's sake.
You're either a tank or a dpser. You're either a Controller or a dpser. You're either a healer or a dpser. That's it period no matter what you pick. Too boringly simple. That's why people say I like it for a month (me, many others) but then it gets ZZZZZ.
I have to disagree, that consoles lack spells and content and such because it only can process so much... look at Oblivion and the Fallout for example, exact same pc, many many many abilities and spells. You obviously haven't played EQ adventures either, tons of items and spells in that
Comments
Yea I love this idea. I have missed my house in UO since I quit playing it years ago. But it was alot of fun decorating the house and finding new stuff to put in it. I even liked it when your friends could come check out what you had and what you made from different items....(old man voice)Oh the good old day.
If you don't understand it now, its likely you never will. I've never played an MMO with combat even remotely close to this, not Phantasy Star Online whos combos were all stuck at three, not DDO. Threads like this spawn from a very vocal minority as many of the views on this site do. Likely how WoW is popular, yet the most vocal on here despise it. This is the kind of community that lives here, not normal gamers, but a vast amount of players who will complain no matter the game.
People get ideas in their head about what things are supposed to be by misinterpreting the acronyms, MMO and RPG, and its apparent there is at least one person here that doesn't understand the basis of an Action Game, or a hybridization of genres. The fact is, there will be people who pay for an extra month of play, or two, or three, or five. Features don't make a game an MMO, only the ability to play with hundreds of players online all at the same time is what makes a game an MMO.
Now again, you sit here and say how small the world is (when in comparison to the other 2 superhero games on the market, its huge, and varied) and you complain how the game has nothing to do because YOU don't see things to do in the game, but that doesn't mean others won't. People on this site try to make it sound like they feel sorry for people who take enjoyment in this game and willingly pay for their time to play it like they know better. The only truth is that the people paying for the game are doing so because they find longevity in it, and are having fun and enjoy the system, and its becoming increasingly sad that so many on this site try to stop that, and even worse that they can't bother trying to see it.
There are other games out there that have "more to do", but we aren't playing them. More to do doesn't add depth, it doesn't add complexity, it doesn't require any more thinking, it just adds time spent doing the same things. Some people want to spend hundreds of hours working on a crafting skill so they can make some leather pants for an elf one day, but thats not complex... I'd dare say thats masochistic, but some people like it. I've done all that, and I'm happy about the change in a combat system that requires far more skill then just reading a build guide online and executing it.
But the DCUO apparently doesn't have any type of imagination for this. I'm pretty sure most of them are happy enough in the arenas and police station battles, because that's all they really talk about.
I hate to say it, but what this game needed was a Paul Barnett type walking around in the backrooms jabbing these people with a hot poker.
That guy is a moron, but he's got some good ideas about gaming even though he doesn't know coding, and I'm sure we would have saw better stuff content wise.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I lost interest during character creaation. Way to limited for my tastes.
I think you're being semantical here again. You know what he means when he says "MMO" as I think everyone who posts here does.
By your definition, Poker Online would be a MMO, which while it may qualify it in that:
A. You have to play it online and
B. Many people play it all at the same time....
...it's not a MMO. Why? Because it lacks MMO features. Again, which this does. No crafting, no auction house, no housing, no minigames or other community activities. Heck, the community can't even TALK to each other with this chat system.
In the same way that Poker Online doesn't qualify as a "MMO", neither does this game really. It's a bastard child.. half in one world (consoles) and half in another (traditional MMOs)
Putting Superman and Batman in the game doesn't really make this a MMO. It's the features.
"TO MICHAEL!"
@ maskedweasel
Please stop. You always write well constructed replies. Your responses are very reasonable.
At some point, you have to realize the problem with responding with just text in this fashion:
You fail to see the glazed over eyes of the people you're responding to.
The very people complaining about depth in a game, ironicly also give shallow examples and have narrow views.
Save your sanity, sir. The vocal minority apparently lacks the abilities that most humans enjoy: Being able to Adapt, Improvise and Overcome.
It's not about fighting, it's about balance. It's not about enlightenment, it's about balance. It's not about balance.
Computer games are not really deep stuff anyways. Shallow isn't bad, reading books about petry or advanced physics get rather boring if you do it all the time.
But calling DCU more shallow than Diablo, Wow or whatever is just shades of gray.
Let's not pretend that playing any computer games is "deep".
Champions Online
Lord of the Rings Online
EVE Online
Aion
World of WarCraft
Fallen Earth
CoH/CoV
FFXI
Everquest 2
Age of Conan
At least thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis many.. but there's a whole lot more if you look around. ^^
"TO MICHAEL!"
While I know you're right, I try and give some people on this site the benefit of the doubt and try and rationalize or compromise with them. I respect some of those that have been here a while, but apparently that can only take you so far. I suppose I'll dial it down a bit, what happens with the game will happen regardless of the beliefs of the same select users stating the same things for no other purpose then to prove a moot point. The game is what it is and those who play it and enjoy it will continue to do so.
you are my DCUO hero, love your posts and your tips, what server are you playing on?
I am on D&G but would totally reroll for the bromance
all kidding aside I do appreciate your input and informative replies to the threads regarding dcuo
/salute
"All expectation leads to suffering" Buhhda
Many people playing it at the same time does not count as everyone playing together. In DCUO I can see hundreds of players on my screen at any given moment. in poker, what , you'd have maybe 8? Its obvious you have very skewed views if you don't see this game as being an MMO. Features does not make a game an MMO, nowhere in that acronym is crafting required. CoH didn't have crafting on launch, nor does it have mini games. The game does have a broker, and chatting? Spoken like someone who never truly played the game, the chat is extremely active with people getting GROUPS together to take out large named villains. Just last night I started a raid group to take out clayface, not necessarily because we needed so many people, but because so many people wanted to join me.
This is the kind of "traditional" mentality that will change as more games start going online and you start to see more hybridization of genres. Its been done time and again throughout video game history, and no matter what kind of "traditional" views you decide to hold, all it takes is a simple review from the media to tell you this game is truly an MMO.
http://pc.ign.com/articles/114/1143429p1.html
http://www.gametrailers.com/game/dc-universe-online/8708
"Genres: Action, MMO, Role-Playing"
And who could forget, just for you guys:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/012011/21304_Grinding-My-Gears-DCUO
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4406/Dissecting-the-Acronym-RPG.html
Lets put it to bed guys, it isn't even worth debating it, this game is exactly an MMO. Its exactly an RPG, and its exactly an Action game.
I appreciate the .. support .. I suppose.
I've got another guide coming up, I'll be going through the Area 51 alert and showing people how to complete it, find all the investigations, and then leave with an extra skill point
I'm on Public Enemies, but will be playing on D&G eventually, most likely villain side on D&G. I rarely cross sides on the same server, just gets messy when fighting against league mates.
But not agreed it's an MMO. It's a console game disguised as a MMO, which being a superhero game is rather ironic, lol.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I enjoy the game completely, love is unconditional in my eyes, I had possibly one of the first reviews once the NDA dropped and I never shy away from saying what problems this game has, or what would easily stop me from playing. I try and stay as honest as possible and will answer every question to the best of my knowledge without generalizing.
But on the point of it being an MMO, agree to disagree, sounds fine to me. The game will still be listed under "MMO" when people go to buy it on steam or D2D. I doubt many people will have trouble finding it there.
I've not played DCUO but I can say is that more buttons does not in any way or form add any depth at all. On the contrary unless carefully chosen having a lot of abilities can take depth away.
Having a small set of abilities can lead to a lot deeper gameplay then having a ton of them ever can. Take Guild Wars and DotA/HoN/LoL for examples. GW only allows 8 equippable abilities yet I've not encountered an MMO with a deeper, more balanced and carefully designed combat system, granted there's hundreds of possible skills but the whole depth of the GW combat system is decided by having to choose only 8 from all that. DotA/HoN/LoL only feature 4 abilities but they're considered a serious e-sports requiring extensive tactics and skill on a level not needed in an MMO.
Having 30 abilities often leads to mages with fire missile, ice missile, poison missile, lightning missile, arcane missile, rock missile, death missile etc. instead of just a simple magic missile.
More abilities only add depth if they're truly unique abilities instead of just copies of previous ones with a slightly diffirent effect
Again I don't know whether or not DCUO is shallow or not, but I do know that "More abilities = more depth" is a laughable notion.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
A mage with just a simple "magic missile" vs a melee with simple "magic resistance" buffs and resistances loses. Every time.
That's why mages have fire, ice, poison, lightning, arcane, rock, death missiles, etc. Because that's where real strategy and gameplay comes in; not in clickfest mode. Clickfest mode just hit "block" or "roll".
Do I spec my rogue with fire resistance or ice resistance? How much do I put in arcane defense and how much do I put in to lightning defense? Should I use fire arrows vs this mage or is he stacked with high fire resistance?
The type of game you are describing with a mage with just a 'simple magic missle' sounds like this:
Mage using one spell only to kill people
Abilities don't have to be 'unique' in order to be effective as long as strategy comes into play. DCUO is proof of that. But having more variations of a type of spell gives players more depth to consider.
There are only SO many unique skills, the rest are just repeats of the other ones basically. Fire tanking? Yeah, all your spells are doing fire damage with one doing more fire damage and one doing fire damage with a knockback. Another is fire damage with a 'suck in' effect while another is fire damage with a 'enmity' boost. Not really that unique, is it?
"TO MICHAEL!"
How is it diffirent with all those spell variants?
You simply apply some basic logic ( fire is great against ice elementals? ) and some game knowledge ( this and that epic gear gives frost resistance so better use lightning. ) and you're right back to that same button bashing you had earlier.
Because mages have so many variants decisions for gear are pretty easy. You simply try to get your average resists as high as possible since you can't possibly predict what's going to be used against you anyway. Save for a select few NPC encounters for which you'll now have to grind a totally seperate set of gear!
I'm not talking about a mage with just 1 spell. I'm talking about a mage with 10 unique spells instead of 10x 10 copies. When you start adding copies you're merely cluttering your UI and creating artificial depth as players now have to spend extra time managing key-bindings and remembering NPC resists...
And yes fire damage with a suck-in vs fire damage with knockback is unique when compared to fire bolt vs shadow bolt. Each of the fire spells provides an effect that can not be obtained through the other spell. The first spell can not knockback and the second can not suck-in. Fire bolt and shadowbolt generally both deal damage and nothing more, the fire may cause a very short duration DoT but it's still damage.
The 2 fire spells are tactical because they apply in diffirent situations. Sucking in a stronger melee opponent is stupid just like knocking away a squishy character is. The other way around is smart. In 95% of the situations where you should cast firebolt you can just as easily cast a shadowbolt ( there honestly aren't any games where resists give such a huge advantages, about the biggest is EvE ( any other games where you can get 90%+ resist on one thing and 10% on another ) and even there PvP means highest average is best. )
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I'm going to point out two recurring themes in your responses that I think do not serve the topic.
1) You continually fall back to the combat system of the game as if that single thing makes that game have incredible depth. Most people have noted the combat system is different and interesting, but BEYOND that there isn't much to the game. In fact several people have said that there isn't much to the game beyond the combat system and that is why the game doesn't have depth. You can point out all the combat you want, but it is still just 1 thing.
2) You keep judging people who don't "understand" or "get it" about your view as if they are somehow the problem. Lets not resort to internet pyschology to make points or try to discredit someone elses view ok? If a large portion of people here and on the beta forums have come to the conclusion that the game lacks depth, lacks features, content, options and as a result is a shallow game or not worth a monthly fee that doesn't mean something is wrong with them. It just means people find the game lacking in several areas in the field it is trying to compete in.
This isn't saying the game isn't fun or doesn't have some nice features. I'm sure plenty of people will enjoy it for a while. Some for a very long time. That really doesn't change the reality of what DCU offers though.
In a MMO where the Fire specced mages were king, people stacked higher elemental resistances vs those because on average, they'd see more of them. Now this was due to fire being more damaging or requiring less mana for mages to use.. whatever.
Then one smart mage realized this and started specccing for the slightly less powerful arcane spells. Now 8/10 times he met someone, he was mowing them down because they were speeced for another type of mage. Not your simple "one magic type" mage. Soon, opponents realized they couldn't just go fire defense and started going the other way with more arcane defense, so that lowers their fire and something else.
Then the ice mages start to see they do more damage so it's more of them.
With your 'simple magic missle' method, there is none of this. People just spec vs one thing and little strategy is involved. Cookie cutter builds so basic that every game people log in it's "Hey guys, what's the best build for a mage?"
Your idea of a game? it's easy to answer because there's no imagination or strategy and people say "Doesn't matter. It's just one magic spell. Stack this." We have too many MMOs like that already.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Right.... because in every single game ever made the mage class only ever has access to a 100 variants of *element* missile spells and no other spells at all.
I'm saying replace all those spells that do X damage with about a 2 second cast time to a single spell.
And honestly? Resists? You honestly believe that it's fine to create a fire damage spell doing 100 damage with a 2 sec cast for 50 mana and an ice damage with 75 damage with 2.5 sec cast for 100 mana? And just tell the players that it's fine since most players will start stacking fire resists anyway so it balances out?
Just look at physical damage. All physical damage is of resist type: armor. You honestly believe that melee classes are inherently reduced to a single spec because unlike mages they don't have to face half a dozen of resists?
I've yet to see flaming letters across the sky spreading the divine message that all specialisation paths in MMOs must have diffirent resists.
Instead of designing mages with specialisation paths that in the end all do damage with some minor side-effects ( slow for ice, burning for fire etc. ) why not create mages with smaller but meaningfull paths?
A fire line that does single target damage uncomparable to any other line but nothing else. An ice line with not much damage but some incredible slows, stuns and freezes. An air line that provides great AoE effects but nothing more. An earth line that provides amazing defense and support abilities but hardly anything directly offensive.
And before you start complaining that this will force mages into only a single role remember that there's such a thing as hybrid specs....
Instead of a fire line which is almost a copy of the ice line but with chilled effects replaced with burning effects and freezes replaced with stuns you now have 2 unique lines that provide totally diffirent party roles and probably an action bar that allows the same number of effects but instead of being spread over 50 skills that mostly do the same you're now faced with 20 or so unique skills.
If you have trouble imagining what such a system would look like just look at Dragon Age Origins. Each spell line had a grand total of 4 spells but you're hopefully not going to claim that that game didn't have tactical in-depth combat?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
For an MMO that just launched, its pretty freakin' decent. And plays REALLY well on the PS3. Loving it so far.
They've promised us content updates. MMOs shouldn't even be judged until a year or so after their release but DCUO is on the right way here.
Only problem I have with it is there should have been some kind of a death penality, would have made the PvP intense. I don't know why anyone would play in a PvE in this game.
There is a reason there are only so many spells in Dragon Age. It's a console game. The game's designs are limited to that platform because an Xbox, PS3 or Wii only has so much processing and memory going on in there. That game was tailored to that media due to limitations, not because 'less is more'. Why do you think DCUO is so small and so shallow?
MMOs (real MMOs) have way more to draw upon. There is so much more than can be done with multiple skills and trees. It's pretty stupid to have a huge canvas and just draw a stick figure on it, when you can use a palette full with different paints.. not just blue.
I think hybrid specs are fabulous actually. That's why Rift is so intriguing. Tons of different souls that can be mixed in with many classes. There is the potential for a huge amount of interesting PvP battles with that system. But under your system you seem to prefer (limited skills), a game like Rift wouldn't even exist because you don't like how the skills are SO complex and there's just too many.
In Rift, you can be a mass dps nuking mage, or switch specs and be a mass debuffing/dps mage, or switch specs and be a dps/healing mage. Switch one more time and be a buffing/dps mage. This is not possible with the small skillsets in DCUO nor ones that you have advocated earlier. DCUO is smaller than even WoW's limited trees and skill capacities for God's sake.
You're either a tank or a dpser. You're either a Controller or a dpser. You're either a healer or a dpser. That's it period no matter what you pick. Too boringly simple. That's why people say I like it for a month (me, many others) but then it gets ZZZZZ.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Been playing for a few days now. Its fun but you really see "STILL IN BETA" all over it. There is a gold seller been posting none stop in chat for 24hours. Yes they know about it why they cant stop it is behond me. Leveling is SO easy. Level 12 in under a day just doing the quests. The fights like "area 51" were hard at the end and that was fun. But classes are so unblanced.
For me when the DEV's are NO WHERE to be find.. no GM's.. try to CALL about any problems you have. Then I think of RIFT and what I LOVE about RIFT is .. you KNOW the DEV's are there.. they talk to you and fix things right away.. DCU went with SOE. So far for me DCU all classes are way to much the same.. only COLORS make you different.
yea alot of mmos seem to have a rough time with launch and is understandable, I'm eager to see how the game will turn out once things get under control.
I have to disagree, that consoles lack spells and content and such because it only can process so much... look at Oblivion and the Fallout for example, exact same pc, many many many abilities and spells. You obviously haven't played EQ adventures either, tons of items and spells in that