DCUO is simply a single player game where you happen to have other single players in the world. You hardly interact with them, its not easy to chat with them. Its all action, action, action, which is fine but gets repetitive quick. Even the group content feels like a solo game because you're still doing your own thing. Alerts are, frankly, a joke and very boring. PvP works ok but not great. Questing is... meh, questing.
Its fun for a little bit, but I'm treating it like a console game and will not, in any way, sub after my first 30 days.
For an MMO that just launched, its pretty freakin' decent. And plays REALLY well on the PS3. Loving it so far.
They've promised us content updates. MMOs shouldn't even be judged until a year or so after their release but DCUO is on the right way here.
Only problem I have with it is there should have been some kind of a death penality, would have made the PvP intense. I don't know why anyone would play in a PvE in this game.
If it goes retail then it should be judged. When someone starts paying is the moment it matters. DCUO is a shallow shallow MMO. A decent console game it may be but to be an MMO it fails on most levels.
I have to agree with this. While it might be "just fine" for a console action game, when compared to most other MMOs, it falls short on depth, normal MMO technical features (Chat, UI, etc.), and content.
And at a price of $50 + $15/mo + cash shop, it SHOULD be compared to other MMOs, because that is what other MMOs cost, and more.
I'm going to point out two recurring themes in your responses that I think do not serve the topic.
1) You continually fall back to the combat system of the game as if that single thing makes that game have incredible depth. Most people have noted the combat system is different and interesting, but BEYOND that there isn't much to the game. In fact several people have said that there isn't much to the game beyond the combat system and that is why the game doesn't have depth. You can point out all the combat you want, but it is still just 1 thing.
2) You keep judging people who don't "understand" or "get it" about your view as if they are somehow the problem. Lets not resort to internet pyschology to make points or try to discredit someone elses view ok? If a large portion of people here and on the beta forums have come to the conclusion that the game lacks depth, lacks features, content, options and as a result is a shallow game or not worth a monthly fee that doesn't mean something is wrong with them. It just means people find the game lacking in several areas in the field it is trying to compete in.
This isn't saying the game isn't fun or doesn't have some nice features. I'm sure plenty of people will enjoy it for a while. Some for a very long time. That really doesn't change the reality of what DCU offers though.
When I said you didn't understand I was specifically talking about the genre, though its true, many people seem to have a hard time understanding the ideas behind an action based game. Secondly, loosely defining "depth" as to be just a bunch of additional stuff to do doesn't mean the game is better, or adds any complexity to the system.
While the combat system is obviously something that has many different layers hence being full of depth, many of the other systems in place aren't as complex, though they don't need to be. Quests in regular MMOs don't show much depth, neither does crafting in many mainstream MMOs.
While some people require these "other things" to add depth for them, DCUO starts as something one note, and as you gain level transforms into as much of a multi-tiered combat-oriented MMO as many of the others out there. While other games may put their "depth" in something like crafting, where you can have many multiple crafters that can build items over a wide variety weapon, armor, or housing types, or that it may require gathering, DCUO adds their depth in their combat system which is the underlying feature of action based games, and truthfully most of the current MMOs on the market.
On a side note, players keep saying how viable it would be to add crafting, but in truth it really doesn't make much sense. "I'm just going to farm these thugs here for their thug-shoes, and then I'm going to craft me a pair of sneakers with + 5 defense." Just doesn't make much sense.
Likewise you don't have to be a crafter to be able to create something that will be used to serve a purpose, like a kryptonite gun, or in the case of one of the most recent missions, a staff that would allow you to change animals back into people. That can easily be driven by a story, because frankly, very few heroes are known for their engineering, especially in DCUO where everyone receives their power through exobytes, it wasn't like an initial predetermined thing.
Just pointing these few things out. I feel like there are a few who may not understand the system very well, but more that just aren't familiar with the action genre, which is a big part of the disconnect here.
Originally posted by momodig I have to disagree, that consoles lack spells and content and such because it only can process so much... look at Oblivion and the Fallout for example, exact same pc, many many many abilities and spells. You obviously haven't played EQ adventures either, tons of items and spells in that
This is a very valid point, and completely true. I thank you for bringing it up because I have Oblivion.
One thing you notice is that in Oblivion with all the spells and skills you have, you are ALWAYS opening your menus. A lot. More than a lot.. a crapload. You are always stopping before you go in a dungeon to swap in a torch or swap in your Night Eye skills and take your day skills out up top.
Both you and the other poster are mentioning single player console games here when we are supposed to be talking about these things in MMOs. There is no way that you can do what you do in Oblivion in a console style MMO, because it's too tedious because of the platform limitations.
Oblivion/Morrowind is one of the best console games ever made (imo) but one thing it isn't is very fluid nor quick paced group play. It is a game meant as a long, solo adventure in sandbox form. This can be done on a PC as a MMO where you have much easier access to presets, macros and such but on consoles this wouldn't work as a MMO. You'd end up with FFXIV and too many screens to flip through slowing down combat and just about everything else.
Same with Fallout. The VATS system slows the game down considerably due to the aiming and picking bodyparts out. This wouldn't work in a MMO which people like to be fast paced. It would make WoW combat look like the fastest game around.
The two examples of good console games are not good examples of good MMOs. This is how I feel about DCUO, it makes a great console game but not a MMO.
Q: There are a lot of comments from players who feel that there isn't enough story in the game as it stands. We wondered if you'd be willing to speak to that claim?
A: (bunch of stuff then..) "That's what we've had in MMOs, and I don't necessarily think that it's fair to gamers, especially gamers who have growing families or ones who want to play other games.
In DCUO, I want to entertain you. We've designed the entire thing for 5-7 hours a week."
However, Smedley defended Sonys decision to charge $15 a month to play DC Universe Online.
For kids and casual players, free-to-play makes more sense, he said. But this is a big-budget production, and it targets a more hard-core audience.
The sweet spot is that 25-year-old male who doesnt mind paying money to play a rich, immersive game they cant get any where else.
So somewhere between 1/11/11 (launch day) this game went from targeting a 'hard-core audience' to---
1/14/11 (3 days later) to being "I don't necessarily think that it's fair to gamers, especially gamers who have growing families or ones who want to play other games."
Anyone notice any corporate inconsistencies here?
It might lend a hand into explaining why people say it's shallow.
Any word in regard to the auction houses, which are still not active in the game?
Chris Cao: Yes, definitely, with the first update. We're actually working on it right now. We had some issues in beta with making sure that fonts were readable and the UI was working well. We've worked hard to fix those things, and [it is] basically the very next thing on the docket to get out to all of you. You have stuff in your bags, and you need a way to trade it -- we understand that.
When I said you didn't understand I was specifically talking about the genre, though its true, many people seem to have a hard time understanding the ideas behind an action based game. Secondly, loosely defining "depth" as to be just a bunch of additional stuff to do doesn't mean the game is better, or adds any complexity to the system.
While the combat system is obviously something that has many different layers hence being full of depth, many of the other systems in place aren't as complex, though they don't need to be. Quests in regular MMOs don't show much depth, neither does crafting in many mainstream MMOs.
While some people require these "other things" to add depth for them, DCUO starts as something one note, and as you gain level transforms into as much of a multi-tiered combat-oriented MMO as many of the others out there. While other games may put their "depth" in something like crafting, where you can have many multiple crafters that can build items over a wide variety weapon, armor, or housing types, or that it may require gathering, DCUO adds their depth in their combat system which is the underlying feature of action based games, and truthfully most of the current MMOs on the market.
On a side note, players keep saying how viable it would be to add crafting, but in truth it really doesn't make much sense. "I'm just going to farm these thugs here for their thug-shoes, and then I'm going to craft me a pair of sneakers with + 5 defense." Just doesn't make much sense.
Likewise you don't have to be a crafter to be able to create something that will be used to serve a purpose, like a kryptonite gun, or in the case of one of the most recent missions, a staff that would allow you to change animals back into people. That can easily be driven by a story, because frankly, very few heroes are known for their engineering, especially in DCUO where everyone receives their power through exobytes, it wasn't like an initial predetermined thing.
Just pointing these few things out. I feel like there are a few who may not understand the system very well, but more that just aren't familiar with the action genre, which is a big part of the disconnect here.
I think people understand the combat system more than you give them credit for, but lets look at this topic form a differente direction.
Without resorting to talking about how awesome the combat system is or the DC property, what does DCU do on its own that makes the gameplay deep and meaningful? What features does it offer and how do they make the game have depth or have complexity?
Forget for a moment what other mmos do, lets talk about the deep/complex aspects of DCU aside from the clicky combat.
Maybe the social features of the game, economy, exploration, roleplaying tools, etc.
I have just come to a point in my life where as a gamer I just enjoy the games I play for what they are and not what I want them to be. Doesn't matter to me if I only enjoy them for a month or for 3 years. It's all about having fun and right now I am having fun wether its shallow or not. One mans puddle is another mans Pond lol.
I think people understand the combat system more than you give them credit for, but lets look at this topic form a differente direction.
Without resorting to talking about how awesome the combat system is or the DC property, what does DCU do on its own that makes the gameplay deep and meaningful? What features does it offer and how do they make the game have depth or have complexity?
Forget for a moment what other mmos do, lets talk about the deep/complex aspects of DCU aside from the clicky combat.
Maybe the social features of the game, economy, exploration, roleplaying tools, etc.
I think thats a funny thing for me to have to do, explain what depth it has if you take away the feature that has the most depth that the game focuses around quite a bit. Its like saying "Tell me what makes RIFTs gameplay more interesting then other titles and you CAN'T SAY the RIFTS or "Dynamic Gameplay"!"
Its just a strange request. If I had to choose what my next "in depth" game system for DCUO would be it would be the progression system, including the feats. It takes people to be aware of them and gives you a secondary mode of play to achieve them, not one thats based entirely on mission objectives, but side objectives or completely different sets of goals entirely.
My third thing? Well I don't have much of one honestly. The game has other things to do like races and investigations, but they aren't really depth worthy, if only for the fact that they tie into the feats. Exploration ties into the feats. Even buying and selling items ties into the feats.
So apart from those 2 things, -- I mean take those 2 things out, take them right out, and you have a terrible game that has nothing that could be considered in the slightest form "depth" worthy.
What features does it offer and how do they make the game have depth or have complexity?
Forget for a moment what other mmos do, lets talk about the deep/complex aspects of DCU aside from the clicky combat.
Maybe the social features of the game, economy, exploration, roleplaying tools, etc.
When I played, there was no no auction house and therefore, no economy.
There was no real exploration in the cities because they were pretty small. The missions you recieved took you to every spot of the city there was.
Other than running on the water in superspeed like Dash from 'The Incredibles', there really wasn't exploring other than seeing how high you could fly before you hit the sky boundry, then turning your flight off and landing on the ground.
There was no roleplaying but I'm sure there could be some PvP roleplaying legions. I'm no sure I'd want to hear those Vent chats though.
Leveling: You can hit max level in less than 24 hours time played.
Combat: Clearly designed for a controller with 10 buttons, you can only have 8 abilities equipped. (most mmos have at least 20-30 abilities per class) More abilities = more depth and requires more knowledge of your class and when to use certain abilities.
End game: Raiding, arenas, duos, legends... thats it. everything you do at end game is quened for... you could sit in the hall of doom/hero city and never have a reaosn to leave at level 30.
This game was clearly designed for casual console play not sure why they even released it for PC but im sure they made money off of it and its SOE so nothing new there.
I cannot begin to describe how wrong you are.
But I'll try my hardest.
First point:
What? Really? If so, tell me how. Not that levels really add depth anyway. Or the time it takes to reach that max level. It's how fun it is to get there, really. It could take you a year to get to level 300, but if it's not fun to get to the end who's going to play it anyway? Also, when you have that short leveling time, there starts to emerge a meta game, which is the best combo of powers for that max level. And with the sheer number of options you have for combinations of powers paths and different movement abilities, there are a lot of those.
Second point:
Two things to start off: More abilities =/= the number of abilities you have on screen. More abilities =/= more depth. A common opinion (not misconception; it can be true if done well) is that more abilities equal more combinations, that in turn equal more options; but that is not the only way to garner more options. Especially when all abilities are made available to you all the time. Making only 6 powers available to use is not shallow, it's brilliant. By limiting the number of abilities you can use, there are now different power sets and A LOT more ways to customize your character. It adds to that meta game I was talking about before. When you have all your powers available you simply react to what's happening and kind of lull through a battle. But with this limitation, you have to try to plan head and attempt to out-wit your opponent whether he be an NPC or PC. In battle, you will have to try to get out of situations you were not prepared for, and upon surviving, receive that "epic win" state of mind (this is a concept thrown around in my game design class, I won't get into it here, but you can PM me about it if you want). You need to anticipate and plan ahead, which builds a sense of community.
Third point:
There is not a large variety of end-game content at launch, no. I will give you that. But you don't necessarily need a GINORMOUS selection of things to do to keep playing the game. This is where that meta game plays in again. PvP is something that is completely different every time you play it. Because of all the heroes and their powers, you have to think on your feet constantly. This makes you want to (hopefully) roll different heroes because of your power selections will make the game new and interesting each time for PvP and the rest. This is the advantage they have with real-time powers. Maybe not so much on Legendaries though. But those are awesome for the comic fans like myself, and I think that's what they were designed for.
This game was not specifically made for casual console gamers. It is, though, made with console players in mind. They try to split the line between casual and hardcore, making it easier for people to just jump in, but making a certain level of skill involved as well. I think they succeed in this. The ability to quickly create an awesome custom character with new abilities is really a very large positive for this game. Over the next year or longer, when more content is added, it will only do the game more good.
You need to accept the game for what it is.
If you don't like how it plays now, you probably never will and should just find another game.
Also, I think you're confusing "depth" with "time sink".
TL;DR: Waffles are delicious and should always be served with warm maple syrup.
Edit: fixed a conceptual error in the beginning of the second point.
More abilities =/= more depth. A common opinion (not misconception; it can be true if done well) is that more abilities equal more combinations, that in turn equal more options; but that is not true.
I only played beta so I'm wondering...
Does the CE or regular copy come with a Lex Luthor Brainwashing Chip that puts this thought in people's heads when they open the box?
Maybe shallow isn't the right word. Maybe straightforward is. But either way, it is kinda shallow. But it's still fun.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
More abilities =/= more depth. A common opinion (not misconception; it can be true if done well) is that more abilities equal more combinations, that in turn equal more options; but that is not true.
I only played beta so I'm wondering...
Does the CE or regular copy come with a Lex Luthor Brainwashing Chip that puts this thought in people's heads when they open the box?
j/k ( a bit)
Ha, no, I'm only brain controlled by real super villains. But it should put that thought into their head. It's true. Sometimes limiting the options available to you is a way of giving more options.
If I have 32 powers to pick from, but only let you use for of them, you now have 32 powers and 128 different power combinations. I think anyway. I haven't had to use math in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong.
But, having less total powers creates less options, too...so I guess it's only half true.
"More abilities =/= more depth. A common opinion (not misconception; it can be true if done well) is that more abilities equal more combinations, that in turn equal more options; but that is not the only way to garner more options."
Maybe shallow isn't the right word. Maybe straightforward is. But either way, it is kinda shallow. But it's still fun.
The thing is, it's depth really depends on how you want to play it. If you're going to make a bunch of different characters and explore all the different combos and really try to fine tune your hero to some kind of PvP monster, then it is pretty deep (not INCREDIBLY so, but average at least). But if you're just going to play through it, beat all the content once and maybe make a second character, then, yes. It is pretty shallow.
But either way, kicking the crap out of these classic DC villains in these unique battles are kind of awesome as a fan.
I imagine there will be waves of people playing when new content come out. (like, now there is a surge, then it will die down, and then pick up again once new content is released)
On a side note, players keep saying how viable it would be to add crafting, but in truth it really doesn't make much sense. "I'm just going to farm these thugs here for their thug-shoes, and then I'm going to craft me a pair of sneakers with + 5 defense." Just doesn't make much sense.
I know that was one of the arguments SOE used - superheroes don't craft - but you can't use the "what happens in comics" argument on one aspect of the game and then ignore it for others, such as:
- superheroes don't build their costumes by beating people up and stealing their shoes; or
- Batman doesn't head to the GCPD after beating the Penguin to collect $47 in reward from Commissioner Gordon; or
- Robin doesn't steal $2 from a thug's wallet after defeating him so he can finance his hero activities.
DCUO is a game, and a MMO, so has to deal with different rules and expectations. Crafting is one of those things. It will probably come in with SOE saying how important crafting is to the entire superhero genre. :-)
On a side note, players keep saying how viable it would be to add crafting, but in truth it really doesn't make much sense. "I'm just going to farm these thugs here for their thug-shoes, and then I'm going to craft me a pair of sneakers with + 5 defense." Just doesn't make much sense.
I know that was one of the arguments SOE used - superheroes don't craft - but you can't use the "what happens in comics" argument on one aspect of the game and then ignore it for others, such as:
- superheroes don't build their costumes by beating people up and stealing their shoes; or
- Batman doesn't head to the GCPD after beating the Penguin to collect $47 in reward from Commissioner Gordon; or
- Robin doesn't steal $2 from a thug's wallet after defeating him so he can finance his hero activities.
DCUO is a game, and a MMO, so has to deal with different rules and expectations. Crafting is one of those things. It will probably come in with SOE saying how important crafting is to the entire superhero genre. :-)
Crafting wouldn't work with the game too well anyway. Maybe crafting costume pieces that would be mainly show and not really give any major stat bonus would be good.
But the combat is mainly about how you use your abilities, and less about the stats of your armor. Not only would it seem out of place, but it just wouldn't be nearly as fufilling (especially in this game) as you think it would be. You would be crafting pieces primarily for the look, because the stats are so minimally important.
This game is about looks and powers. Crafting items wouldn't really add anything to the game, and a feature like that added in this late would most likely be half-assed anyway.
On a side note, players keep saying how viable it would be to add crafting, but in truth it really doesn't make much sense. "I'm just going to farm these thugs here for their thug-shoes, and then I'm going to craft me a pair of sneakers with + 5 defense." Just doesn't make much sense.
I know that was one of the arguments SOE used - superheroes don't craft - but you can't use the "what happens in comics" argument on one aspect of the game and then ignore it for others, such as:
- superheroes don't build their costumes by beating people up and stealing their shoes; or
- Batman doesn't head to the GCPD after beating the Penguin to collect $47 in reward from Commissioner Gordon; or
- Robin doesn't steal $2 from a thug's wallet after defeating him so he can finance his hero activities.
DCUO is a game, and a MMO, so has to deal with different rules and expectations. Crafting is one of those things. It will probably come in with SOE saying how important crafting is to the entire superhero genre. :-)
LOL I'm just picturing this happening in the comics.
Lack of content. I can finish the game in less than 2 months and all there will be left to do is grind for gear. I like the game but sadly not worthy of a 50-60 doall box price, monthly fees and cash shop. I'll wait to see how long it takes them to add content such as an expansion or DLC before I even consider buying it.
I would like to know what game (MMO) has been released that you couldnt blow through to level cap within 2 months and complete most of the content.
Heck WoW vanilla you could reach 60 within 1 day 6 hours played time. Now you can go 1-85 in around a days played time.
Ultimately I think it comes down to what you are looking for. I doubt you are going to find any MMO where you are going to have 2+ months worth of content to play. Even less so for a newly released game. If anything SOE has shown that it can create lots of content for its game. EQ2 has around 6+ expansions. EQ1 has several expansions. I wont toss Vanguard in there since it wasnt a SOE created game. There is planetside with 3 expansions. Freerealms they have continuely added new content to that game and its a f2p game.
I am by no means a SOE fanboy. I hate the company to be honest, they have horrible customer support and there websites leave alot to desire. But I will give them props for being able to keep there games going and the games they developed themselfs they have continuely added content to and lots of content at that.
It will be interesting to see if they will release the new content via a ingame store or free download or an expansion. Smedly made it sound like the monthly fee will cover the costs of all future content additions in his interview and that would make some sense seeing as how this is a pc/ps3 game and they will want to keep both games with the same content so there patchs will work across the board without lots of modifications / changes. I can't see them selling the content via station cash and that working great on the ps3. But who knows until we see it.
Honestly, I saw nothing wrong with the game. It's exactly how it was meant to be and I enjoy the game play. There are a few bugs here and there that are annoying; but, what game isn't riddled with them after major releases, etc? So far the number one complaint I have seen is there is a lack of content. Well, the level cap is 30...so, that in mind, doesn't that suggest the possibility that there will be numerous planned expansions in the games future?
I wonder if these same whiners complained like this at the launch of WoW.
"Waah, I beat all the content in 2 months, there's nothing left in this game but grinding in raids, don't play it"!
Seriously...
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
I think thats a funny thing for me to have to do, explain what depth it has if you take away the feature that has the most depth that the game focuses around quite a bit. Its like saying "Tell me what makes RIFTs gameplay more interesting then other titles and you CAN'T SAY the RIFTS or "Dynamic Gameplay"!"
Its just a strange request. If I had to choose what my next "in depth" game system for DCUO would be it would be the progression system, including the feats. It takes people to be aware of them and gives you a secondary mode of play to achieve them, not one thats based entirely on mission objectives, but side objectives or completely different sets of goals entirely.
My third thing? Well I don't have much of one honestly. The game has other things to do like races and investigations, but they aren't really depth worthy, if only for the fact that they tie into the feats. Exploration ties into the feats. Even buying and selling items ties into the feats.
So apart from those 2 things, -- I mean take those 2 things out, take them right out, and you have a terrible game that has nothing that could be considered in the slightest form "depth" worthy.
I can't speak from specific experience about Rifts since it is still a game that is in Beta and the developers are still making big changes based on player feedback, but if I had to speculate I would say that players could still name several things about the game that add depth. Like conquest/consequences in pvp, complex character build system, exploration as well as other traditional features found in most mmos. On top of that the dynamic world content is in a completely different league than a combat system that essentially repalces hot keys with sequences of combos and mouse clicks for auto attacks.
For months the developers have been hyping 2 things about DCU. The actiony combat and iconic characters. That is precisely what the topic of this thread has been addressing and I think you illustrate that in your reply. Take away the actiony combat aspect of the game and there isn't much left that stands out. Even the one feature you mention beyond the combat system almost entirely hinges on the combat system.
DCU is a game with one noteworthy feature and even that has been a deal breaker for many people. Beyond the combat system the gameplay is measured in hours. There is no appreciable social, economy, meaningful pvp, etc aspects of the game. Even the developer has said the game is designed to be played 5-7 hours a week, which is a very strange game design for mmos which are designed to be played for months and years.
Again this isn't saying there isn't fun to be found in the game. If you like the combat then the game has some neat experiences to offer, but if you want more from a game than a combat system there is not a lot the DCU has to offer.
Lack of content. I can finish the game in less than 2 months and all there will be left to do is grind for gear. I like the game but sadly not worthy of a 50-60 doall box price, monthly fees and cash shop. I'll wait to see how long it takes them to add content such as an expansion or DLC before I even consider buying it.
I would like to know what game (MMO) has been released that you couldnt blow through to level cap within 2 months and complete most of the content.
Heck WoW vanilla you could reach 60 within 1 day 6 hours played time. Now you can go 1-85 in around a days played time.
Ultimately I think it comes down to what you are looking for. I doubt you are going to find any MMO where you are going to have 2+ months worth of content to play. Even less so for a newly released game. If anything SOE has shown that it can create lots of content for its game. EQ2 has around 6+ expansions. EQ1 has several expansions. I wont toss Vanguard in there since it wasnt a SOE created game. There is planetside with 3 expansions. Freerealms they have continuely added new content to that game and its a f2p game.
I am by no means a SOE fanboy. I hate the company to be honest, they have horrible customer support and there websites leave alot to desire. But I will give them props for being able to keep there games going and the games they developed themselfs they have continuely added content to and lots of content at that.
It will be interesting to see if they will release the new content via a ingame store or free download or an expansion. Smedly made it sound like the monthly fee will cover the costs of all future content additions in his interview and that would make some sense seeing as how this is a pc/ps3 game and they will want to keep both games with the same content so there patchs will work across the board without lots of modifications / changes. I can't see them selling the content via station cash and that working great on the ps3. But who knows until we see it.
At their respective releases, EQ2 wasn't a game that most people could casually finish in two months. Ignoring what people can do that have multiple years of experience in the game and how fast they can level their 23rd alt, there was far more than 2 months worth of content in EQ2 at release. Perhaps a few people could really plow through levels and reach max in a short time, but that doesn't mean they consumed all of the games content of which there was a very healthy amount.
DCU on the other hand will rush even casual players to max level and offers so little content that it will be difficult not to consume it in 2 months. That is the key difference.
Saintviktor has a very valid point about the lack of content in the game. If someone played EQ2 and DCU at the same pace which game would last longer and have more to do?
.. and yet couldnt create a char that i liked, even in CO something could be done, put there lag, "same ol" stuff u have nothing interesting to play
You only start with a few basic pieces of gear and such, you unlock most of it through playing the game.... much deeper than CO. : )
But many players like their original looks. When you change the costume to the "epic" gear it can totally change how you look and make your original design not even be close to what the new gear looks like.
I know you can just use the stats from new gear and keep your original look, but people usually grind to look cooler and in this game if you look how you want to start then whats the point.
No crafting, no content to do except grind the same stuff after only 1-2 months is too shallow and not worth monthly fees.
Comments
DCUO is simply a single player game where you happen to have other single players in the world. You hardly interact with them, its not easy to chat with them. Its all action, action, action, which is fine but gets repetitive quick. Even the group content feels like a solo game because you're still doing your own thing. Alerts are, frankly, a joke and very boring. PvP works ok but not great. Questing is... meh, questing.
Its fun for a little bit, but I'm treating it like a console game and will not, in any way, sub after my first 30 days.
I have to agree with this. While it might be "just fine" for a console action game, when compared to most other MMOs, it falls short on depth, normal MMO technical features (Chat, UI, etc.), and content.
And at a price of $50 + $15/mo + cash shop, it SHOULD be compared to other MMOs, because that is what other MMOs cost, and more.
Why are people calling this game shallow?
Because for a PC MMO, it is shallow.
When I said you didn't understand I was specifically talking about the genre, though its true, many people seem to have a hard time understanding the ideas behind an action based game. Secondly, loosely defining "depth" as to be just a bunch of additional stuff to do doesn't mean the game is better, or adds any complexity to the system.
While the combat system is obviously something that has many different layers hence being full of depth, many of the other systems in place aren't as complex, though they don't need to be. Quests in regular MMOs don't show much depth, neither does crafting in many mainstream MMOs.
While some people require these "other things" to add depth for them, DCUO starts as something one note, and as you gain level transforms into as much of a multi-tiered combat-oriented MMO as many of the others out there. While other games may put their "depth" in something like crafting, where you can have many multiple crafters that can build items over a wide variety weapon, armor, or housing types, or that it may require gathering, DCUO adds their depth in their combat system which is the underlying feature of action based games, and truthfully most of the current MMOs on the market.
On a side note, players keep saying how viable it would be to add crafting, but in truth it really doesn't make much sense. "I'm just going to farm these thugs here for their thug-shoes, and then I'm going to craft me a pair of sneakers with + 5 defense." Just doesn't make much sense.
Likewise you don't have to be a crafter to be able to create something that will be used to serve a purpose, like a kryptonite gun, or in the case of one of the most recent missions, a staff that would allow you to change animals back into people. That can easily be driven by a story, because frankly, very few heroes are known for their engineering, especially in DCUO where everyone receives their power through exobytes, it wasn't like an initial predetermined thing.
Just pointing these few things out. I feel like there are a few who may not understand the system very well, but more that just aren't familiar with the action genre, which is a big part of the disconnect here.
One thing you notice is that in Oblivion with all the spells and skills you have, you are ALWAYS opening your menus. A lot. More than a lot.. a crapload. You are always stopping before you go in a dungeon to swap in a torch or swap in your Night Eye skills and take your day skills out up top.
Both you and the other poster are mentioning single player console games here when we are supposed to be talking about these things in MMOs. There is no way that you can do what you do in Oblivion in a console style MMO, because it's too tedious because of the platform limitations.
Oblivion/Morrowind is one of the best console games ever made (imo) but one thing it isn't is very fluid nor quick paced group play. It is a game meant as a long, solo adventure in sandbox form. This can be done on a PC as a MMO where you have much easier access to presets, macros and such but on consoles this wouldn't work as a MMO. You'd end up with FFXIV and too many screens to flip through slowing down combat and just about everything else.
Same with Fallout. The VATS system slows the game down considerably due to the aiming and picking bodyparts out. This wouldn't work in a MMO which people like to be fast paced. It would make WoW combat look like the fastest game around.
The two examples of good console games are not good examples of good MMOs. This is how I feel about DCUO, it makes a great console game but not a MMO.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Interesting comments:
Massively exclusive: A chat with DCUO's Chris Cao, part two
(Part I is around someplace.)
Meanwhile, back at the Batcave.... (cue music)
So somewhere between 1/11/11 (launch day) this game went from targeting a 'hard-core audience' to---
1/14/11 (3 days later) to being "I don't necessarily think that it's fair to gamers, especially gamers who have growing families or ones who want to play other games."
Anyone notice any corporate inconsistencies here?
It might lend a hand into explaining why people say it's shallow.
"TO MICHAEL!"
ex; of note as well...
First step to becoming a MMO.. congrats!"TO MICHAEL!"
I think people understand the combat system more than you give them credit for, but lets look at this topic form a differente direction.
Without resorting to talking about how awesome the combat system is or the DC property, what does DCU do on its own that makes the gameplay deep and meaningful? What features does it offer and how do they make the game have depth or have complexity?
Forget for a moment what other mmos do, lets talk about the deep/complex aspects of DCU aside from the clicky combat.
Maybe the social features of the game, economy, exploration, roleplaying tools, etc.
I have just come to a point in my life where as a gamer I just enjoy the games I play for what they are and not what I want them to be. Doesn't matter to me if I only enjoy them for a month or for 3 years. It's all about having fun and right now I am having fun wether its shallow or not. One mans puddle is another mans Pond lol.
No signature, I don't have a pen
I think thats a funny thing for me to have to do, explain what depth it has if you take away the feature that has the most depth that the game focuses around quite a bit. Its like saying "Tell me what makes RIFTs gameplay more interesting then other titles and you CAN'T SAY the RIFTS or "Dynamic Gameplay"!"
Its just a strange request. If I had to choose what my next "in depth" game system for DCUO would be it would be the progression system, including the feats. It takes people to be aware of them and gives you a secondary mode of play to achieve them, not one thats based entirely on mission objectives, but side objectives or completely different sets of goals entirely.
My third thing? Well I don't have much of one honestly. The game has other things to do like races and investigations, but they aren't really depth worthy, if only for the fact that they tie into the feats. Exploration ties into the feats. Even buying and selling items ties into the feats.
So apart from those 2 things, -- I mean take those 2 things out, take them right out, and you have a terrible game that has nothing that could be considered in the slightest form "depth" worthy.
There was no real exploration in the cities because they were pretty small. The missions you recieved took you to every spot of the city there was.
Other than running on the water in superspeed like Dash from 'The Incredibles', there really wasn't exploring other than seeing how high you could fly before you hit the sky boundry, then turning your flight off and landing on the ground.
There was no roleplaying but I'm sure there could be some PvP roleplaying legions. I'm no sure I'd want to hear those Vent chats though.
We already touched on no housing and no crafting.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I cannot begin to describe how wrong you are.
But I'll try my hardest.
First point:
What? Really? If so, tell me how. Not that levels really add depth anyway. Or the time it takes to reach that max level. It's how fun it is to get there, really. It could take you a year to get to level 300, but if it's not fun to get to the end who's going to play it anyway? Also, when you have that short leveling time, there starts to emerge a meta game, which is the best combo of powers for that max level. And with the sheer number of options you have for combinations of powers paths and different movement abilities, there are a lot of those.
Second point:
Two things to start off: More abilities =/= the number of abilities you have on screen. More abilities =/= more depth. A common opinion (not misconception; it can be true if done well) is that more abilities equal more combinations, that in turn equal more options; but that is not the only way to garner more options. Especially when all abilities are made available to you all the time. Making only 6 powers available to use is not shallow, it's brilliant. By limiting the number of abilities you can use, there are now different power sets and A LOT more ways to customize your character. It adds to that meta game I was talking about before. When you have all your powers available you simply react to what's happening and kind of lull through a battle. But with this limitation, you have to try to plan head and attempt to out-wit your opponent whether he be an NPC or PC. In battle, you will have to try to get out of situations you were not prepared for, and upon surviving, receive that "epic win" state of mind (this is a concept thrown around in my game design class, I won't get into it here, but you can PM me about it if you want). You need to anticipate and plan ahead, which builds a sense of community.
Third point:
There is not a large variety of end-game content at launch, no. I will give you that. But you don't necessarily need a GINORMOUS selection of things to do to keep playing the game. This is where that meta game plays in again. PvP is something that is completely different every time you play it. Because of all the heroes and their powers, you have to think on your feet constantly. This makes you want to (hopefully) roll different heroes because of your power selections will make the game new and interesting each time for PvP and the rest. This is the advantage they have with real-time powers. Maybe not so much on Legendaries though. But those are awesome for the comic fans like myself, and I think that's what they were designed for.
This game was not specifically made for casual console gamers. It is, though, made with console players in mind. They try to split the line between casual and hardcore, making it easier for people to just jump in, but making a certain level of skill involved as well. I think they succeed in this. The ability to quickly create an awesome custom character with new abilities is really a very large positive for this game. Over the next year or longer, when more content is added, it will only do the game more good.
You need to accept the game for what it is.
If you don't like how it plays now, you probably never will and should just find another game.
Also, I think you're confusing "depth" with "time sink".
TL;DR: Waffles are delicious and should always be served with warm maple syrup.
Edit: fixed a conceptual error in the beginning of the second point.
Nope. Why?
Explain yourself, Vinterkrig.
I only played beta so I'm wondering...
Does the CE or regular copy come with a Lex Luthor Brainwashing Chip that puts this thought in people's heads when they open the box?
j/k ( a bit)
"TO MICHAEL!"
Maybe shallow isn't the right word. Maybe straightforward is. But either way, it is kinda shallow. But it's still fun.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Ha, no, I'm only brain controlled by real super villains. But it should put that thought into their head. It's true. Sometimes limiting the options available to you is a way of giving more options.
If I have 32 powers to pick from, but only let you use for of them, you now have 32 powers and 128 different power combinations. I think anyway. I haven't had to use math in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong.
But, having less total powers creates less options, too...so I guess it's only half true.
"More abilities =/= more depth. A common opinion (not misconception; it can be true if done well) is that more abilities equal more combinations, that in turn equal more options; but that is not the only way to garner more options."
Fixed?
The thing is, it's depth really depends on how you want to play it. If you're going to make a bunch of different characters and explore all the different combos and really try to fine tune your hero to some kind of PvP monster, then it is pretty deep (not INCREDIBLY so, but average at least). But if you're just going to play through it, beat all the content once and maybe make a second character, then, yes. It is pretty shallow.
But either way, kicking the crap out of these classic DC villains in these unique battles are kind of awesome as a fan.
I imagine there will be waves of people playing when new content come out. (like, now there is a surge, then it will die down, and then pick up again once new content is released)
Hoorah! Things to reference in future posts!
I know that was one of the arguments SOE used - superheroes don't craft - but you can't use the "what happens in comics" argument on one aspect of the game and then ignore it for others, such as:
- superheroes don't build their costumes by beating people up and stealing their shoes; or
- Batman doesn't head to the GCPD after beating the Penguin to collect $47 in reward from Commissioner Gordon; or
- Robin doesn't steal $2 from a thug's wallet after defeating him so he can finance his hero activities.
DCUO is a game, and a MMO, so has to deal with different rules and expectations. Crafting is one of those things. It will probably come in with SOE saying how important crafting is to the entire superhero genre. :-)
Crafting wouldn't work with the game too well anyway. Maybe crafting costume pieces that would be mainly show and not really give any major stat bonus would be good.
But the combat is mainly about how you use your abilities, and less about the stats of your armor. Not only would it seem out of place, but it just wouldn't be nearly as fufilling (especially in this game) as you think it would be. You would be crafting pieces primarily for the look, because the stats are so minimally important.
This game is about looks and powers. Crafting items wouldn't really add anything to the game, and a feature like that added in this late would most likely be half-assed anyway.
LOL I'm just picturing this happening in the comics.
I would like to know what game (MMO) has been released that you couldnt blow through to level cap within 2 months and complete most of the content.
Heck WoW vanilla you could reach 60 within 1 day 6 hours played time. Now you can go 1-85 in around a days played time.
Ultimately I think it comes down to what you are looking for. I doubt you are going to find any MMO where you are going to have 2+ months worth of content to play. Even less so for a newly released game. If anything SOE has shown that it can create lots of content for its game. EQ2 has around 6+ expansions. EQ1 has several expansions. I wont toss Vanguard in there since it wasnt a SOE created game. There is planetside with 3 expansions. Freerealms they have continuely added new content to that game and its a f2p game.
I am by no means a SOE fanboy. I hate the company to be honest, they have horrible customer support and there websites leave alot to desire. But I will give them props for being able to keep there games going and the games they developed themselfs they have continuely added content to and lots of content at that.
It will be interesting to see if they will release the new content via a ingame store or free download or an expansion. Smedly made it sound like the monthly fee will cover the costs of all future content additions in his interview and that would make some sense seeing as how this is a pc/ps3 game and they will want to keep both games with the same content so there patchs will work across the board without lots of modifications / changes. I can't see them selling the content via station cash and that working great on the ps3. But who knows until we see it.
Honestly, I saw nothing wrong with the game. It's exactly how it was meant to be and I enjoy the game play. There are a few bugs here and there that are annoying; but, what game isn't riddled with them after major releases, etc? So far the number one complaint I have seen is there is a lack of content. Well, the level cap is 30...so, that in mind, doesn't that suggest the possibility that there will be numerous planned expansions in the games future?
I wonder if these same whiners complained like this at the launch of WoW.
"Waah, I beat all the content in 2 months, there's nothing left in this game but grinding in raids, don't play it"!
Seriously...
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
I can't speak from specific experience about Rifts since it is still a game that is in Beta and the developers are still making big changes based on player feedback, but if I had to speculate I would say that players could still name several things about the game that add depth. Like conquest/consequences in pvp, complex character build system, exploration as well as other traditional features found in most mmos. On top of that the dynamic world content is in a completely different league than a combat system that essentially repalces hot keys with sequences of combos and mouse clicks for auto attacks.
For months the developers have been hyping 2 things about DCU. The actiony combat and iconic characters. That is precisely what the topic of this thread has been addressing and I think you illustrate that in your reply. Take away the actiony combat aspect of the game and there isn't much left that stands out. Even the one feature you mention beyond the combat system almost entirely hinges on the combat system.
DCU is a game with one noteworthy feature and even that has been a deal breaker for many people. Beyond the combat system the gameplay is measured in hours. There is no appreciable social, economy, meaningful pvp, etc aspects of the game. Even the developer has said the game is designed to be played 5-7 hours a week, which is a very strange game design for mmos which are designed to be played for months and years.
Again this isn't saying there isn't fun to be found in the game. If you like the combat then the game has some neat experiences to offer, but if you want more from a game than a combat system there is not a lot the DCU has to offer.
At their respective releases, EQ2 wasn't a game that most people could casually finish in two months. Ignoring what people can do that have multiple years of experience in the game and how fast they can level their 23rd alt, there was far more than 2 months worth of content in EQ2 at release. Perhaps a few people could really plow through levels and reach max in a short time, but that doesn't mean they consumed all of the games content of which there was a very healthy amount.
DCU on the other hand will rush even casual players to max level and offers so little content that it will be difficult not to consume it in 2 months. That is the key difference.
Saintviktor has a very valid point about the lack of content in the game. If someone played EQ2 and DCU at the same pace which game would last longer and have more to do?
But many players like their original looks. When you change the costume to the "epic" gear it can totally change how you look and make your original design not even be close to what the new gear looks like.
I know you can just use the stats from new gear and keep your original look, but people usually grind to look cooler and in this game if you look how you want to start then whats the point.
No crafting, no content to do except grind the same stuff after only 1-2 months is too shallow and not worth monthly fees.
GAME TIL YOU DIE!!!!