Originally posted by Malcanis Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Jakigi
Originally posted by Tazlor if you don't want grind you're playing the wrong genre.....>.> simple as that.
I can tell you come from a long line of indepedent thinkers. point remains valid. wrong genre, bro. Counterpoint: it is possible to play MMOs without grinding. For instance, I do.
You should elaborate more. For instance, are you implying that in the games you play, grind does not exist, or are you implying that you have removed the 'grind' feeling by how you play?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
For me its not about instant gratification its about having fun. I really don't understand why the hell people say he does not want to work for it he wants instant gratification. Working is something I do outside of a game. I have been playing games for 30 years I know by now what working and having fun is thanks.
Let me rephase this I don't want to stab myself with a spoon 5k times and think I am having fun because I am working at it. Its not about wanting the best now and not later its about playing a game in a persistant world and having fun WHILE DOING IT..... I know this websites name is MMORPG so its esentually not just a MMO site.
I think the problem here is that RPG games are esentually about lvling a character up.
I think EVE has it right but I would make it where everyone has access to all the skills but it would take time to swap skills out. So in essence you could make your charcater different at different times but it would take a while to switch skill sets. If you wanted to have a skill one day thats fine but it will take time to change to that skill. Have variety or even throw in a penalty for not wanting to wait maybe if you change a skill out you loose another skill.
I want a MMOFG Massively Multiplayer Online Fun Game.
I want to play in a persistant world where you decide what you want to do that day. I think the big thing here is people want variety. I don't want to kill 50 k goblins and get my I killed 50k goblins medal.
Actually if thats what the people who work for its mindset is then heh Go for it. Whatever floats your boat.
If I want to play a mob then why should that not be possible? Let me have the same stats as the mob not anything different. Hell let me lvl up when I play a mob that would be fun also. I am not opposed to the lvl up concept but I understand what the op is saying.
If I want to get together and play a game within a game like cards or something then why not? I know you could actually play chess in UO.
I think op wants a game that when he plays he can pick what skills or bonuses perks whatever you want to say, and not worry about having to kill the 50k goblins from earlier. Thats good but in my opinion you still need a system that has some type of penalty or rewards. Even in pong if your ball was lost then it was game over. Thats why I suggested a setup sort of like EVE. I am sure there are lots of really creative people that could figure out a lot better system then me.
There are so many things that mmo's could do or be but aren't.
Planetside was fun but it = Hackers R Us. I had a sub there for around 3 months. I can't tell you the amount of times you knew people were hacking in that game and it seemed like the developers did not care. I did not really kill to many people as I mostly drove a tank and enjoyed that over actually fighting.
So in my opinion you can do things in persistant worlds and have fun at it without killing people or mobs. It was fun for me to try to keep my tank from not being blown up while people were shooting guns in it. A lot of times when I would log in people in the guild I was in would be pming me and asking me to pull a tank because I was good at driving it. Different strokes for different folks.
I played Savage 2 for a while lots of fun. The only problem is like what your saying its not a persistant world. Its fun for a while but its missing the feel that you and I want in a game like an mmo. OP wants to play with all players in one world not 24 players 12 per side. I want a game where I can pick sides for a while and stay with a group of people and play against everyone else. I don't want to be limited to a little map with 24 players.
even after this post was made, people keep asking that same oblivious question.
maybe instead of asking that same question over and over again you should say "what value is there in a virtual world"?
when getting right down to the heart of the matter, MOST of you would PROBABLY see that there is an intrinsic value in THAT ASPECT ALONE and not bother to ask the question.
Both questions essentially end in the same realization that most people like games, and fewer want virtual worlds (unless they're also strong games.)
For me, virtual worlds are Second Life and sandbox MMORPGs and hold very little appeal because they're not entertaining. They don't offer interesting decisions, and instead offer very empty-feeling worlds. I would paint or code before participating in virtual worlds, because both are freeform experiences with more interesting products.
it should be obvious that both me and the OP are looking for a GAME set in a virtual world, and not looking for Second Life. if we were looking for Second Life, there is always......Second Life.
if we didn't care about virtual worlds we wouldn't be talking an an MMO forum now would we? we would be playing all these non virtual world games that have the proper gameplay already. THINK ABOUT IT.
and lets stay on topic. we're not discussing what the majority wants, but to find out if somebody is all alone in what he wants.
but since you brought up SL, i'll indulge a paragraph on that side tangent. you mention rather painting and coding and those ARE a part of the "content" of Second Life. those are some of the interesting aspects of it. those are WAY more interesting and freeform decisions than normal MMORPG "gameplay". the whole world is built on those "products".
nobody here is saying we want to strictly socialize or roleplay so i don't know why you are bringing that up as if its even on the table.
since people seem to get so confused with simple package-based thinking (hey, its human nature)......
...when i say virtual world, i don't mean Second Life, There, ActiveWorlds or any of these types of "3D Chat" spaces.
almost all MMORPGs are based on virtual worlds. even some single player games are based on virtual worlds, they just aren't multiplayer. it just means a cohesive, largely contiguous world rather than a collection of disconnected levels/maps. you can, for the most part, freely travel in any order between the different regions rather than some linear progression of basically teleporting from map to map like most small scale multiplayer and single player games.
maybe i should always say ONLINE virtual world when i'm talking here, but please ASSUME THAT since we ARE on an MMO forum. i just don't like to use the term MMO cuz its even more hardwired in most peoples brains to assume a bunch of RPG char progression and other bullshit that they can't seem to seperate in their minds from the simple idea of a game having a virtual world and being massively multiplayer. such limited thinking. these people are gonna be confused no matter what, but i was hoping "virtual world" would be LESS confusing than "MMO".
let's see. company makes one. takes 5 years. you beat it in a month then cancel subscription. MMO dies.
where are those mmo's? in the graveyard.
which ones are those?
Maybe guild wars that was one of best selling game ?:DDD
In guild wars max lvl 1-3 days depending on campaign you took. And many ppl had 2000+ hours spent in this game ....
Only flaw is instancing, but gw2 gona fix that, dunno if will be as fun as gw1. If it will be there will be copy era of gw2. Like wow curently is.
instancing does ruin it for me all on its own. unfortunately sounds like GW2's dungeons will be instanced which will probably largely kill that for me too. but it also has levelling and most of the typical crap i hate in RPGs. it does look like it has some action game influence (step in the right direction), but i doubt people would call either one an action game. ESPECIALLY GW1 with its totally typical stand-still-you-can' -dodge-lets-play-whackamole-with-the-hotbar "combat".
anyways, as you pointed out, while GW may be LAREGLY grindless (comparitively speaking), it's far from being in the graveyard like "that guy" was saying.
even after this post was made, people keep asking that same oblivious question.
maybe instead of asking that same question over and over again you should say "what value is there in a virtual world"?
when getting right down to the heart of the matter, MOST of you would PROBABLY see that there is an intrinsic value in THAT ASPECT ALONE and not bother to ask the question.
Both questions essentially end in the same realization that most people like games, and fewer want virtual worlds (unless they're also strong games.)
to paraphrase....
most people like chocolate, and fewer want peanut butter (unless its paired with chocolate).
even tho i'm not one of the people who ONLY want peanut better by itself (and i don't know why after this entire thread you seem to think anyone here IS arguing from that stance), there is nothing wrong with the people who do.
so i doubly don't understand why you keep trying to ram that idea home everytime someone talks about online worlds.
just cuz YOU don't care about them, try to remember people care about different things than you.
and since people are so easily confused.... I WANT A PEANUT BUTTER CUP! i want them TOGETHER! there's no point in telling me i can get chocolate elsewhere and that i can get peanut butter elsewhere.
to TRY to make it crystal clear for people who have a hard time connecting the dots...... i'm refering to idiotic statements such as "go play an FPS" or "i fail to see what a virtual world adds to an action game". which is basically saying "i fail to see what peanut butter ads to the chocolate eating experience" or "i fail to understand other people, and how they could possibly crave a different experience from what *I* enjoy, but i know i want to try to make them feel stupid for WHATEVER it is they are wanting".
if you want to talk about the subject matter of the thread, BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE. the exact same table we're sitting at. don't yell at us from some adjacent table, or a table across the room.
The OP is not alone. I would love to have a mmog like he described. Id still make it possible to grind achievements but these achievements would add no increase in the characters inherent effectiveness.
There has to be a mass of people like myself completely over the grind aspect of mmos. It's a clever psychological tactic by developers: creating an addiction to the false sense of accomplishment level-ups and gear grinds provide. But, please, SOMEBODY, develop a good game, let's evolve.
Stop wasting development time with monotonous quests, environment, mobs and npcs; focus on the fun part. Go ALL OUT on character customization (Skills included), crafting and combat.
Highlights:
-NO GRIND, NO LEVELS, NO PIGEONHOLED CLASSES: Create an "end game" character from an enormous selection of skills (There would be a skill point cap, so players could only obtain a small portion of the available skills) from various archtypes, armor, and weaponry favoring certain play styles, from the
Am I alone, or is anyone else looking for something similar? I would gladly pay month to month for a game like this over these WoW clones.
No, you are not alone, you're just in a smaller niche than FFA PVP Fantasy gamers.
There's been a few games developed similar to what you are looking for, but by and large they have not been successful enough for another developer to decide to evolve the concept.
I actually like your idea of being given a preset number of points to distribute in various skills (came up with that idea myself a few years back) but so far almost no one else seems to be very warm to the option.
You could still have some character advancement with such a design, (for the advancement obsessed) where players earned sklll that might increase gaming enjoyment but at the same time did not give them a (combat) competitive advantage over others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To me grinding is constantly doing stuff that is repetitive, and certainly not fun. Its usually fun at first but because you need to do it so often it gets dull.
Now i've played darkfall and it got open world, full loot.. but the ranking up is boring as hell and extremely repetetive(aka semi-afk gathering).The PVP however is extremely fun.
I would like a game where you do pvp and the gathering is done FOR YOU. Lets face it the actual gathering of stuff is boring. With this i'm thinking about this MMO in development called FireFall, to gather resources you call down a mining"machine" and when it starts mining you will get attacked so you need to defend the miningsite.
The player is having action, while the gathering is being done for him.
since people seem to get so confused with simple package-based thinking (hey, its human nature)......
Ironic that you were the one to bring this up, given that you looked at my statement of fact (many like themeparks, fewer like virtual worlds) as a statement that player preference is binary with no overlap.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
if its fun, its not a grind. grind is repetitive busywork that is not fun. comes from people talking about their real life jobs being a grind. cuz thats what most MMO activities feel like. an unfun job.
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lol Man i came hoping to see some new titles i didnt recognize and theres just a long dumb debate over what a "grind" is.
Name titles you bastards! I think ive tried em all tho.
Bloodline Champions is not so "massively multiplayer" simply because its arena based so you wont run into 100's of people in one game or anything but other than that its perfect for an arena pvp lover. You can change which "class" to play in between matches and each archetype has a few different versions that play slightly differently, differently enough to have somewhat of a new feel tho.
Its definitely worth checking out for all the level grinding haters that just want to pvp.
I started a Fallen Earth trial the other day, have about 5-6 hours played now and ive enjoyed it right from the beginning. There is leveling up and stuff but it doesnt feel grindy to me yet.
DCUO is very fun, has a grind but its optional, the grind can get boring but its really up to you if you want to grind or not.
Its really gonna be more about how much you enjoy a game. Ive enjoyed DCUO a lot, i play it very casually now because its easy to burn out on, fast game. The available grind is easy as hell but it is grindy. I enjoy the gameplay so much tho that the grind feels less of a grind and more like fun simply because i enjoy the combat a lot.
Try Ace Combat maybe, to me thats another one where the gameplay is fun so it doesnt feel so grindy. But i also havent played it for awhile so im not forcing myself to grind it you know.
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since people seem to get so confused with simple package-based thinking (hey, its human nature)......
Ironic that you were the one to bring this up, given that you looked at my statement of fact (many like themeparks, fewer like virtual worlds) as a statement that player preference is binary with no overlap.
Are you carrot on a stick slaves ready to play a real game yet? Demand one.
I demand Guild Wars 2. There's our action MMO with no grind. It's probably less than 6 months before release and I'm already getting antsy.
It may have some action elements to it but it's hardly what I would call an action game.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Comments
I can tell you come from a long line of indepedent thinkers.
It's an empty, subjective claim. You don't speak for everybody. Things evolve, you can still play WoW or whatever carrot on a stick meets your fancy.
Oh fosho.
Counterpoint: it is possible to play MMOs without grinding. For instance, I do.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
point remains valid.
wrong genre, bro.
Counterpoint: it is possible to play MMOs without grinding. For instance, I do.
You should elaborate more. For instance, are you implying that in the games you play, grind does not exist, or are you implying that you have removed the 'grind' feeling by how you play?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Maybe guild wars that was one of best selling game ?:DDD
In guild wars max lvl 1-3 days depending on campaign you took. And many ppl had 2000+ hours spent in this game ....
Only flaw is instancing, but gw2 gona fix that, dunno if will be as fun as gw1. If it will be there will be copy era of gw2. Like wow curently is.
For me its not about instant gratification its about having fun. I really don't understand why the hell people say he does not want to work for it he wants instant gratification. Working is something I do outside of a game. I have been playing games for 30 years I know by now what working and having fun is thanks.
Let me rephase this I don't want to stab myself with a spoon 5k times and think I am having fun because I am working at it. Its not about wanting the best now and not later its about playing a game in a persistant world and having fun WHILE DOING IT..... I know this websites name is MMORPG so its esentually not just a MMO site.
I think the problem here is that RPG games are esentually about lvling a character up.
I think EVE has it right but I would make it where everyone has access to all the skills but it would take time to swap skills out. So in essence you could make your charcater different at different times but it would take a while to switch skill sets. If you wanted to have a skill one day thats fine but it will take time to change to that skill. Have variety or even throw in a penalty for not wanting to wait maybe if you change a skill out you loose another skill.
I want a MMOFG Massively Multiplayer Online Fun Game.
I want to play in a persistant world where you decide what you want to do that day. I think the big thing here is people want variety. I don't want to kill 50 k goblins and get my I killed 50k goblins medal.
Actually if thats what the people who work for its mindset is then heh Go for it. Whatever floats your boat.
If I want to play a mob then why should that not be possible? Let me have the same stats as the mob not anything different. Hell let me lvl up when I play a mob that would be fun also. I am not opposed to the lvl up concept but I understand what the op is saying.
If I want to get together and play a game within a game like cards or something then why not? I know you could actually play chess in UO.
I think op wants a game that when he plays he can pick what skills or bonuses perks whatever you want to say, and not worry about having to kill the 50k goblins from earlier. Thats good but in my opinion you still need a system that has some type of penalty or rewards. Even in pong if your ball was lost then it was game over. Thats why I suggested a setup sort of like EVE. I am sure there are lots of really creative people that could figure out a lot better system then me.
There are so many things that mmo's could do or be but aren't.
Planetside was fun but it = Hackers R Us. I had a sub there for around 3 months. I can't tell you the amount of times you knew people were hacking in that game and it seemed like the developers did not care. I did not really kill to many people as I mostly drove a tank and enjoyed that over actually fighting.
So in my opinion you can do things in persistant worlds and have fun at it without killing people or mobs. It was fun for me to try to keep my tank from not being blown up while people were shooting guns in it. A lot of times when I would log in people in the guild I was in would be pming me and asking me to pull a tank because I was good at driving it. Different strokes for different folks.
I played Savage 2 for a while lots of fun. The only problem is like what your saying its not a persistant world. Its fun for a while but its missing the feel that you and I want in a game like an mmo. OP wants to play with all players in one world not 24 players 12 per side. I want a game where I can pick sides for a while and stay with a group of people and play against everyone else. I don't want to be limited to a little map with 24 players.
Just my opinions for what there worth.
mmmmmmmmmmmhm
Exactly
it should be obvious that both me and the OP are looking for a GAME set in a virtual world, and not looking for Second Life. if we were looking for Second Life, there is always......Second Life.
if we didn't care about virtual worlds we wouldn't be talking an an MMO forum now would we? we would be playing all these non virtual world games that have the proper gameplay already. THINK ABOUT IT.
and lets stay on topic. we're not discussing what the majority wants, but to find out if somebody is all alone in what he wants.
but since you brought up SL, i'll indulge a paragraph on that side tangent. you mention rather painting and coding and those ARE a part of the "content" of Second Life. those are some of the interesting aspects of it. those are WAY more interesting and freeform decisions than normal MMORPG "gameplay". the whole world is built on those "products".
nobody here is saying we want to strictly socialize or roleplay so i don't know why you are bringing that up as if its even on the table.
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since people seem to get so confused with simple package-based thinking (hey, its human nature)......
...when i say virtual world, i don't mean Second Life, There, ActiveWorlds or any of these types of "3D Chat" spaces.
almost all MMORPGs are based on virtual worlds. even some single player games are based on virtual worlds, they just aren't multiplayer. it just means a cohesive, largely contiguous world rather than a collection of disconnected levels/maps. you can, for the most part, freely travel in any order between the different regions rather than some linear progression of basically teleporting from map to map like most small scale multiplayer and single player games.
maybe i should always say ONLINE virtual world when i'm talking here, but please ASSUME THAT since we ARE on an MMO forum. i just don't like to use the term MMO cuz its even more hardwired in most peoples brains to assume a bunch of RPG char progression and other bullshit that they can't seem to seperate in their minds from the simple idea of a game having a virtual world and being massively multiplayer. such limited thinking. these people are gonna be confused no matter what, but i was hoping "virtual world" would be LESS confusing than "MMO".
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@Grumium nice to see that you "get it".
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instancing does ruin it for me all on its own. unfortunately sounds like GW2's dungeons will be instanced which will probably largely kill that for me too. but it also has levelling and most of the typical crap i hate in RPGs. it does look like it has some action game influence (step in the right direction), but i doubt people would call either one an action game. ESPECIALLY GW1 with its totally typical stand-still-you-can' -dodge-lets-play-whackamole-with-the-hotbar "combat".
anyways, as you pointed out, while GW may be LAREGLY grindless (comparitively speaking), it's far from being in the graveyard like "that guy" was saying.
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wrong conversation bro. we're talking about a new developing genre, why we hate the existing "genre", etc.
might seem a valid point to an invalid.
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to paraphrase....
most people like chocolate, and fewer want peanut butter (unless its paired with chocolate).
even tho i'm not one of the people who ONLY want peanut better by itself (and i don't know why after this entire thread you seem to think anyone here IS arguing from that stance), there is nothing wrong with the people who do.
so i doubly don't understand why you keep trying to ram that idea home everytime someone talks about online worlds.
just cuz YOU don't care about them, try to remember people care about different things than you.
and since people are so easily confused.... I WANT A PEANUT BUTTER CUP! i want them TOGETHER! there's no point in telling me i can get chocolate elsewhere and that i can get peanut butter elsewhere.
to TRY to make it crystal clear for people who have a hard time connecting the dots...... i'm refering to idiotic statements such as "go play an FPS" or "i fail to see what a virtual world adds to an action game". which is basically saying "i fail to see what peanut butter ads to the chocolate eating experience" or "i fail to understand other people, and how they could possibly crave a different experience from what *I* enjoy, but i know i want to try to make them feel stupid for WHATEVER it is they are wanting".
if you want to talk about the subject matter of the thread, BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE. the exact same table we're sitting at. don't yell at us from some adjacent table, or a table across the room.
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The OP is not alone. I would love to have a mmog like he described. Id still make it possible to grind achievements but these achievements would add no increase in the characters inherent effectiveness.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
No, you are not alone, you're just in a smaller niche than FFA PVP Fantasy gamers.
There's been a few games developed similar to what you are looking for, but by and large they have not been successful enough for another developer to decide to evolve the concept.
I actually like your idea of being given a preset number of points to distribute in various skills (came up with that idea myself a few years back) but so far almost no one else seems to be very warm to the option.
You could still have some character advancement with such a design, (for the advancement obsessed) where players earned sklll that might increase gaming enjoyment but at the same time did not give them a (combat) competitive advantage over others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good thread.
What is grinding?
To me grinding is constantly doing stuff that is repetitive, and certainly not fun. Its usually fun at first but because you need to do it so often it gets dull.
Now i've played darkfall and it got open world, full loot.. but the ranking up is boring as hell and extremely repetetive(aka semi-afk gathering).The PVP however is extremely fun.
I would like a game where you do pvp and the gathering is done FOR YOU. Lets face it the actual gathering of stuff is boring. With this i'm thinking about this MMO in development called FireFall, to gather resources you call down a mining"machine" and when it starts mining you will get attacked so you need to defend the miningsite.
The player is having action, while the gathering is being done for him.
Ironic that you were the one to bring this up, given that you looked at my statement of fact (many like themeparks, fewer like virtual worlds) as a statement that player preference is binary with no overlap.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
if its fun, its not a grind. grind is repetitive busywork that is not fun. comes from people talking about their real life jobs being a grind. cuz thats what most MMO activities feel like. an unfun job.
______________________________________
Play my entire game FREE if you want
http://PlayRealNotes.com
lol Man i came hoping to see some new titles i didnt recognize and theres just a long dumb debate over what a "grind" is.
Name titles you bastards! I think ive tried em all tho.
Bloodline Champions is not so "massively multiplayer" simply because its arena based so you wont run into 100's of people in one game or anything but other than that its perfect for an arena pvp lover. You can change which "class" to play in between matches and each archetype has a few different versions that play slightly differently, differently enough to have somewhat of a new feel tho.
Its definitely worth checking out for all the level grinding haters that just want to pvp.
I started a Fallen Earth trial the other day, have about 5-6 hours played now and ive enjoyed it right from the beginning. There is leveling up and stuff but it doesnt feel grindy to me yet.
DCUO is very fun, has a grind but its optional, the grind can get boring but its really up to you if you want to grind or not.
Its really gonna be more about how much you enjoy a game. Ive enjoyed DCUO a lot, i play it very casually now because its easy to burn out on, fast game. The available grind is easy as hell but it is grindy. I enjoy the gameplay so much tho that the grind feels less of a grind and more like fun simply because i enjoy the combat a lot.
Try Ace Combat maybe, to me thats another one where the gameplay is fun so it doesnt feel so grindy. But i also havent played it for awhile so im not forcing myself to grind it you know.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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i didn't think that OR say that.
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Are you carrot on a stick slaves ready to play a real game yet? Demand one.
It may have some action elements to it but it's hardly what I would call an action game.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...