In other games, the combat itself is exciting. In world PVP, only the apprehension of not knowing is exciting -- and once you realize everything is one-sided based on a very simplistic mechanic (bring more friends) you sort of get over your world PVP phase.
Bring more friends is usually the warcry of ppl who arent that familiar with pvp in my experience. But anyways I've played both sides (instanced and world pvp) and they have different appeals ofc. I never duel maybe that's why I dont get it?
I prefer doing small groups vs other small groups of well coordinated ppl or just against a huge zerg. I think both sides of the coin are exciting, its just that often ppl with little experience in world pvp have their mind set on numbers and cant get past that numbers isnt always the reason they lose. What I'm trying to say is its a mental barrier set up to protect scrubs "hey I dont suck, the other side just had more ppl, this game is all about numbers and must suck". No offense ofc
I never duel. MMORPGs are probably the worst possible dueling game. They're bad at PVP even when it's instanced due to progression elements typically diluting the importance of skill (but much worse in world PVP where population is a huge skill-diluting factor.)
I prefer PVP where victory is gained through skill (knowledge of game mechanics and skillful execution of that knowledge.) There are light arguments that it's a form of skill to mobilize a group of gamers consistently, but I find that subset of skills either outright shallow (bring more friends; join a successful guild) or at best uninteresting (management skills.)
I do PVP a lot, but not in games where skill is diluted and unimportant.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Despite the claims of many on these boards, there is zero correlation between grouping or fast travel and the socialization aspect of MMOs, especially in to day's MMOs when you have guild/clan channels, Global/World chat and TS/Vent servers. A person who is inclined to interact with others will do so, and will do so through the channels they are most comfortable with. To blame dungeon finders and flight paths is absurd, especially when going to the extent of actually calling a game mechanic 'evil'.
Sorry but talking to some random person you may never have met in game in a chat tab is not the same as randomly bumping into 2 strangers sat in a camp 5km off the beaten path (those 2 people are now my best online buddies) with fast travel and the myriad of LFG tools todays MMO's have I would never have met these people. I do also put a lot of the blame on instancing as well no longer would you bump into another group running the same dungeon and help each other out if in a sticky situation and then have some beers in the tavern afterwards with, players simply join run x dungeon leave with little words spoken.
Then along came WOW and the sheeple effect we see with apple products these arent MMO players hell a lot arent even gamers they just want somewhere they can interact with their friends and never leave the house because this generation has this opinion that the outside world is simply unsafe again brought on by lazy parenting and not teaching kids how to stay safe when out and about why bother when you can just lock them in their room with their MMOBSS Massivley Multiplayer Online Baby Sitting Service.
A combination of a lazy generation of parents and kids who expect everything handed on a plate to them lead to the crap we get now, not the players who pioneered into the land of MMO's and may not have as much time in 2011 as they did in 1999.
By your definition the "earlier" people who all liked the older way of doing MMO's are also sheeple. I will agree with lazy parenting however my daughter who is 10 is not even allowed on an MMO except Wizard 101 and that's for 1 hour on the weekend. The kids do not believe it to be "unsafe" outside they just choose rather to stay indoors and play videogames which really isn't no different than going over to a buddys house when you were younger going down into the basement to play some D&D besides the immersion in the fake worlds.
Also I would like to argue that not all the people that are in favor of cutting out the BS in the games (Yeah it's real hard to spend 20 minutes getting from point A to point B on the back of a mount) Want to spend an hour in your Global Chanels and Trade Channels and City Channels looking for people what does that solve? You get no player interaction for 1 hour because all that is said in that time frame is what you are looking for ect. Then you have the people that put expectations like "You must have Flaming Buttcheeks of Wrath before you can get in my party" and that has been around longer than ever but as games become more and more about itemization that is the kind of people you will find. You complain that the younger crowd never wants to go outside yet you'd rather have them spending 20 minutes getting somewhere and another hour looking for a group when it can all be done in about 45 minutes (depending on the group you get) in order TO go do something more perhaps outside.
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Despite the claims of many on these boards, there is zero correlation between grouping or fast travel and the socialization aspect of MMOs, especially in to day's MMOs when you have guild/clan channels, Global/World chat and TS/Vent servers. A person who is inclined to interact with others will do so, and will do so through the channels they are most comfortable with. To blame dungeon finders and flight paths is absurd, especially when going to the extent of actually calling a game mechanic 'evil'.
Sorry but talking to some random person you may never have met in game in a chat tab is not the same as randomly bumping into 2 strangers sat in a camp 5km off the beaten path (those 2 people are now my best online buddies) with fast travel and the myriad of LFG tools todays MMO's have I would never have met these people. I do also put a lot of the blame on instancing as well no longer would you bump into another group running the same dungeon and help each other out if in a sticky situation and then have some beers in the tavern afterwards with, players simply join run x dungeon leave with little words spoken.
But it still leaves you up to make at least the attempt to converse and interact with the others. HOWEVER I COMPLETELY AGREE with the Instancing. I was in Final Fantasy XI where there was no instancing you'd have literally a lot of people in a zone fighting. If someone ran into a situation they'd call for help and everyone after a fight (if they were in one) would turn around and help that person. And I do miss those days of non instancing hell it's where I met some of my best friends, BUT I have also made friends with people from across realms where I've made characters on their realms and vice versa. It's really just about how social you want to be with people you believe "you will never meet again.
It wasnt us people who grew up on UO EQ SWG (insert other MMO here) who forced these changes I have the same time now as I had in 2003 and pre-cu SWG, we where happy with the world our jobs, family life other hobbies allowed us time in, we are of a generation like our fathers before us who have to work for what we earn wether that be real life or gaming and we loved it.
In those early days there where few of this new generation playing, they couldnt understand the concept of paying monthly to play a game and they didnt have cards to pay with readily available.
Then slowly over time gamecards and other accesible to the u16 market payment methods became available and lazy parents began to cotton onto the fact their kids would sit in their room 24/7 playing these things £10 a month for a virtual babysitter was appealing I have lost count of the amount of horror stories I have heard of kids as yound as 8 being left at home whilst mum goes to Bingo and the childs left with their virtual babysitter, they then have the cheek to blame the game when their kid tells them to F Off or whatever choice language they learned in game.
Then along came WOW and the sheeple effect we see with apple products these arent MMO players hell a lot arent even gamers they just want somewhere they can interact with their friends and never leave the house because this generation has this opinion that the outside world is simply unsafe again brought on by lazy parenting and not teaching kids how to stay safe when out and about why bother when you can just lock them in their room with their MMOBSS Massivley Multiplayer Online Baby Sitting Service.
A combination of a lazy generation of parents and kids who expect everything handed on a plate to them lead to the crap we get now, not the players who pioneered into the land of MMO's and may not have as much time in 2011 as they did in 1999.
Imagine that, blame it on WoW. Times have changed since, hell, Planes of Power. You want to start pointing fingers, point right there...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Despite the claims of many on these boards, there is zero correlation between grouping or fast travel and the socialization aspect of MMOs, especially in to day's MMOs when you have guild/clan channels, Global/World chat and TS/Vent servers. A person who is inclined to interact with others will do so, and will do so through the channels they are most comfortable with. To blame dungeon finders and flight paths is absurd, especially when going to the extent of actually calling a game mechanic 'evil'.
Sorry but talking to some random person you may never have met in game in a chat tab is not the same as randomly bumping into 2 strangers sat in a camp 5km off the beaten path (those 2 people are now my best online buddies) with fast travel and the myriad of LFG tools todays MMO's have I would never have met these people. I do also put a lot of the blame on instancing as well no longer would you bump into another group running the same dungeon and help each other out if in a sticky situation and then have some beers in the tavern afterwards with, players simply join run x dungeon leave with little words spoken.
While that is a neat and isolated scenario, it's not how or why most people play an MMO. Sitting together to chat for the hell of it, wandering off the beaten path, looking to make new friends in a vdeo game - this scenario isn't non-existent because of a lack of forced downtime. It's non-existant because most people aren't looking to socialize in an MMO. Depending on their generation, that's what bars, clubs, Facebook, instant messengers, and texting are for. Is it your desire to force people to talk to you that have no desire to do so otherwise?
Instancing and zone copies is a whole separate issue.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"I don't have time" is not a good reason to turn MMOs into FPS games. And you are right OP, we are getting there because of just that arument.
I can't say that I particularly love sitting for hours waiting for a spawn but MMOs needs to add more social things, if nothing else to replace the downtime.
I like spending a long time enjoying the game and not just skip past all the fun parts.
I said it before: The genre needs to split up in 2. Let the people with no time enjoy a even more FPS like game, no need to level up just start to play.
The other type would be more for us who can take ourselves time and enjoy the scenery. That doesn't mean we should spend more time sitting and waiting but that the game should move at it's own pace.
Trying to please both these groups isn't possible and we just get games that makes no one really happy because of it.
Trying to please both these groups isn't possible and we just get games that makes no one really happy because of it.
It is possible but the financial backing isn' t there and won't be there till a game that can implement it and implement it right does it and can make money doing so. Because in the end thats all the companies really care for.
"I don't have time" is not a good reason to turn MMOs into FPS games. And you are right OP, we are getting there because of just that arument.
I can't say that I particularly love sitting for hours waiting for a spawn but MMOs needs to add more social things, if nothing else to replace the downtime.
I like spending a long time enjoying the game and not just skip past all the fun parts.
I said it before: The genre needs to split up in 2. Let the people with no time enjoy a even more FPS like game, no need to level up just start to play.
The other type would be more for us who can take ourselves time and enjoy the scenery. That doesn't mean we should spend more time sitting and waiting but that the game should move at it's own pace.
Trying to please both these groups isn't possible and we just get games that makes no one really happy because of it.
Loke666, from your post, it sounds like we actually can please both groups at the same time.
"...MMOs needs to add more social things, if nothing else to replace the downtime."
^----That right there is the solution. Providing more arenas and avenues for socialization allows those that want to chat and make new friends to do so. More importantly, it allows them to do so on their own schedule. What kind of content or features do you feel would further that end?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Despite the claims of many on these boards, there is zero correlation between grouping or fast travel and the socialization aspect of MMOs, especially in to day's MMOs when you have guild/clan channels, Global/World chat and TS/Vent servers. A person who is inclined to interact with others will do so, and will do so through the channels they are most comfortable with. To blame dungeon finders and flight paths is absurd, especially when going to the extent of actually calling a game mechanic 'evil'.
Sorry but talking to some random person you may never have met in game in a chat tab is not the same as randomly bumping into 2 strangers sat in a camp 5km off the beaten path (those 2 people are now my best online buddies) with fast travel and the myriad of LFG tools todays MMO's have I would never have met these people. I do also put a lot of the blame on instancing as well no longer would you bump into another group running the same dungeon and help each other out if in a sticky situation and then have some beers in the tavern afterwards with, players simply join run x dungeon leave with little words spoken.
While that is a neat and isolated scenario, it's not how or why most people play an MMO. Sitting together to chat for the hell of it, wandering off the beaten path, looking to make new friends in a vdeo game - this scenario isn't non-existent because of a lack of forced downtime. It's non-existant because most people aren't looking socialize in an MMO. Depending on their generation, that's what bars, clubs, Facebook, instant messengers, and texting are for. Is it your desire to force people to talk to you that have no desire to do so otherwise?
Instancing and zone copies is a whole separate issue.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
While that is a neat and isolated scenario, it's not how or why most people play an MMO. Sitting together to chat for the hell of it, wandering off the beaten path, looking to make new friends in a vdeo game - this scenario isn't non-existent because of a lack of forced downtime. It's non-existant because most people aren't looking socialize in an MMO. Depending on their generation, that's what bars, clubs, Facebook, instant messengers, and texting are for. Is it your desire to force people to talk to you that have no desire to do so otherwise?
Instancing and zone copies is a whole separate issue.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
It could be that they like the game? I agree with you though if you want 0 human interaction I don't know why you'd play an MMO because you are bound to have to communicate/work with another person to achieve a goal. And it's Non-Exsistent because now MMO's are playing an itemization game with everything to where you can't work outside the box it's Do It This Way or Fail. And do they seriously have a thing you can put on Facebook what you are currently playing? LoL I didn't know that. I do happen to agree with him though about FORCING people to talk. When I go into a cross server group I will try to strike up a conversation if no one else tries to respond I'll go about my buisness get whatever it is I was there to get than leave but in the mean time I'm in guild chat talking with them.
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Despite the claims of many on these boards, there is zero correlation between grouping or fast travel and the socialization aspect of MMOs, especially in to day's MMOs when you have guild/clan channels, Global/World chat and TS/Vent servers. A person who is inclined to interact with others will do so, and will do so through the channels they are most comfortable with. To blame dungeon finders and flight paths is absurd, especially when going to the extent of actually calling a game mechanic 'evil'.
Sorry but talking to some random person you may never have met in game in a chat tab is not the same as randomly bumping into 2 strangers sat in a camp 5km off the beaten path (those 2 people are now my best online buddies) with fast travel and the myriad of LFG tools todays MMO's have I would never have met these people. I do also put a lot of the blame on instancing as well no longer would you bump into another group running the same dungeon and help each other out if in a sticky situation and then have some beers in the tavern afterwards with, players simply join run x dungeon leave with little words spoken.
While that is a neat and isolated scenario, it's not how or why most people play an MMO. Sitting together to chat for the hell of it, wandering off the beaten path, looking to make new friends in a vdeo game - this scenario isn't non-existent because of a lack of forced downtime. It's non-existant because most people aren't looking socialize in an MMO. Depending on their generation, that's what bars, clubs, Facebook, instant messengers, and texting are for. Is it your desire to force people to talk to you that have no desire to do so otherwise?
Instancing and zone copies is a whole separate issue.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
Are you asking me directly, or about that type of player? I'm all for socializing in MMOs. Half my time in any given MMO is spent in General chat or Guild chat. It's not uncommon for me to spend as much time in game as the hardcore players of our guild but still be one fourth their level when they hit cap because I was in Vent or hanging out at the guild city/village/housing/etc.
Now, if your question is why other people would play an MMO if they don't want to socialize, there are plenty of reasons:
- wide range of people to compete against and play with
"Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do?"
Why is that a bad thing? Could you explain why you see socializing with strangers to be a good thing, but playing a game to be with your friends is bad?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It wasnt us people who grew up on UO EQ SWG (insert other MMO here) who forced these changes I have the same time now as I had in 2003 and pre-cu SWG, we where happy with the world our jobs, family life other hobbies allowed us time in, we are of a generation like our fathers before us who have to work for what we earn wether that be real life or gaming and we loved it.
In those early days there where few of this new generation playing, they couldnt understand the concept of paying monthly to play a game and they didnt have cards to pay with readily available.
Then slowly over time gamecards and other accesible to the u16 market payment methods became available and lazy parents began to cotton onto the fact their kids would sit in their room 24/7 playing these things £10 a month for a virtual babysitter was appealing I have lost count of the amount of horror stories I have heard of kids as yound as 8 being left at home whilst mum goes to Bingo and the childs left with their virtual babysitter, they then have the cheek to blame the game when their kid tells them to F Off or whatever choice language they learned in game.
Then along came WOW and the sheeple effect we see with apple products these arent MMO players hell a lot arent even gamers they just want somewhere they can interact with their friends and never leave the house because this generation has this opinion that the outside world is simply unsafe again brought on by lazy parenting and not teaching kids how to stay safe when out and about why bother when you can just lock them in their room with their MMOBSS Massivley Multiplayer Online Baby Sitting Service.
A combination of a lazy generation of parents and kids who expect everything handed on a plate to them lead to the crap we get now, not the players who pioneered into the land of MMO's and may not have as much time in 2011 as they did in 1999.
Imagine that, blame it on WoW. Times have changed since, hell, Planes of Power. You want to start pointing fingers, point right there...
I dont blame WOW I state its a contributing factor the blame IMO firmly sits with lazy parenting and a generation who want everything handed on a plate.
"Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do?"
Why is that a bad thing? Could you explain why you see socializing with strangers to be a good thing, but playing a game to be with your friends is bad?
I didn't think of the competition aspect I forgot with some MMOs the PVP aspects of it would be competition and at least with Warcraft they made it a damn tournament every year. Nor did I really think of the investment of X.XX a month as compared to just shelling out 60.00 when a game comes out.
"Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do?"
Why is that a bad thing? Could you explain why you see socializing with strangers to be a good thing, but playing a game to be with your friends is bad?
Socializing with strangers is 'good'. Socializing with your friends is 'bad'. Go figure.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
Because it's a massive, persistent, ever-changing, ever-growing game world that's got far, far, far more content than any single-player game ever could? You act like if people aren't playing it for the reasons you are, they're somehow wrong. News flash for you, the overwhelming majority of MMO players don't play to socialize.
I dont blame WOW I state its a contributing factor the blame IMO firmly sits with lazy parenting and a generation who want everything handed on a plate.
that comment is right on the ball!parent say oh go play your game ,kid go on wow ,parent come back to see their kids they see him in a dungeon ,and they smile and say ok we got our nounou.they go out without a thot and most of the time they are right they dont need anybody looking for their kids wow is doing it for almost free.parent come back kid is still in front of the screen where they left him having fun ,often parent have to use a crow bar to get the kid in the kitchen to eat .life is good everybody is happy!
lazy parenting?not really ,why pay someone to look for their kid.some have cam to wach their kid and you know what they see,their kids is in front of the computer screen they dont run away etc.so they say screw this we dont need a nounou!
bad parenting?why?parent would stay in the house and look their kid play video game?LOL!
I do not think you have the sequence right. I do not think it is the players that demanded these changes but rather developers wanting to attract more players who cannot invest larger stretches of time and changed the older time investment to smaller chunks. Allowing for other mechanics to continuously whittle away at the Everquest like time concerns. This then became what players looked at and asked for in other games in development. So players not having enough time and asking for the changes in the way games have been developed may not be the right way things have proogressed.
"Not enough time" translates directly into "Not enough patience"
I see the same thing with book reading. When I am trying to read a crapy book I suddenly find that I don't have time to read it, but if its a good book then I can tear though it in days no matter what's going on. Most non-readers say they don't have time to read, but they certainly don't miss a ball game or an episode of American Idol. Its all a sham.
In defense of the impatient, if you don't have time or patience to deal with a game's time sinks, then maybe its the game's fault for not providing an engaging experience. Just like a good book, if the game is good then people won't mind putting time into it.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
Because it's a massive, persistent, ever-changing, ever-growing game world that's got far, far, far more content than any single-player game ever could? You act like if people aren't playing it for the reasons you are, they're somehow wrong. News flash for you, the overwhelming majority of MMO players don't play to socialize.
Deal with it.
I would argue that the majority of MMO players actually want to socialize in the game. However, they prefer more focused. close-knti socializing with friends or guildies. Few people seem interested in the server-wide open channel type of socializing.
"Not enough time" translates directly into "Not enough patience"
I see the same thing with book reading. When I am trying to read a crapy book I suddenly find that I don't have time to read it, but if its a good book then I can tear though it in days no matter what's going on. Most non-readers say they don't have time to read, but they certainly don't miss a ball game or an episode of American Idol. Its all a sham.
In defense of the impatient, if you don't have time or patience to deal with a game's time sinks, then maybe its the game's fault for not providing an engaging experience. Just like a good book, if the game is good then people won't mind putting time into it.
This is a point most of the people blaming 'instant gratification' or 'laziness' seem to miss. If people find an activity engaging they will 'make time' for it.
To me many of the 'old school' timesinks are equivalent to reading Twilight or watching reality TV. I do not have time for them and I do not wish to make time for them.
We've all seen it, the phrase "I don't have enough time" used to justify why players demand game mechanics so prevalent in most modern MMORPG's.
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
UO didn't need forced artificial grouping mechanics.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
UO had recall runes. Is there really a need to waste time traveling? Does it add anything to your experience?
Not enough time to level up a character? Though a complaint not often seen these days, it was used heavily in the past by players who would pay other folks to level up their characters for them. Same with gold buying as well, not enough time to earn the gold myself, so I went out and paid someone else who was willing to do it for me.
This issue stems from levels being the only way to progress your character. No one likes not progressing, since all we can manage to get are level based systems there are very few points of progression. Really no different then you recieving your paycheck once a week vs once a month. Your pay is no different but getting no reward for you effort for that extended period of time sucks.
Rich, detailed crafting systems? Who in the world has time for that? Make the best gear come from drops, preferably from those instant queued dungeons we designed for players without enough time to play the game.
UO had this so I can understand this.
Engaging open world PVP content? Well that has to go, who has time to run around a vast wilderness looking for fair and balanced fights, much better if we let them queue up for cross realm pvp instanced matches to make sure their vaulable time isn't wasted.
Was open world pvp ever engaging, fair or balanced?
Sigh, I could go on but why bother? It's pretty obvious that developers have sacrificed much of what actually gave MMORPG's their heart and soul in order to appeal to the "causal player" with everything from quest givers and large icons above their heads to arrows that direct the player right to their destination.
Socialization mechanics such as forced downtime, strong group encouragement and the like have all given way to make MMORPG's quick and easy games for people to "enjoy" but at the same time they've lost so much of the magic I used to enjoy.
BTW, I've a 50+ year old player who's held a full time job, raised a family all during the time I've played MMORPG's. I never was one of those folks who could claim that I had more time in my younger days and now don't have the time to play them anymore. Few people have had less time than I to enjoy MMORPG's really, so that arguement carries no real weight for me.
Yeah, I know, I'm a dinosaur and need to learn that the MMORPG world has moved on without me but still I hope in time players in the 2nd generation of MMORPG's will one day reconsider and take the time to really enjoy these virtual worlds and not just play them like a quick-hit "game"
You seam to base all your opinions on EQ being the end all be all of MMO design.
When I hear comments about 'the new crowd', 'facebook generation' ect., I feel like it supposes 'the old crowd' AKA EQ/UO/ect stood still in their life, never got married or never got kids (or any responsibilities for that matter) that prevents them from enjoying tedious tasks in a 'game'.
You seam to base all your opinions on EQ being the end all be all of MMO design.
It seems like that's the case, or more generally, that they think the solution is to go back to a system that most people rejected in favor of the new systems.
One of a few reasons those games were (arguably) more social is because of the common interests that much smaller community shared. Secondly, people were bored. Those time sinks were put in to replace replace content, or were there due to inadequate tech. Then somewhere along the line, some dev lead with an IQ over 80 decided that very few people enjoy a 20 minute jog down a road... for the 30th time.
No developer has ANY interest in making their game's community more exclusive(and thus, smaller). Nor do they have any interest in manufacturing boredom in their player base. It worked back then when MMO options were meager and their rivals also lacked content. That dog won't hunt, now.
Now, the problem that Kyleran brings up IS there, I agree. I just disagree that the way to make a game's community more... community-like is to recreate all the old time sinks that make people have to sit around and thus, eventually talk to the guy next to them.
The solution I think we need is in what Loke brought up. MMO's need more social activities and areas. And I'd add that there should be some technical form of character development involved in participating. Or something that helps speed up your normal advancement.
The key isn't in getting rid of the people who don't have 40+ hours a week to play an MMO. The key is in getting people to WILLFULLY engage with other players even if only for 15 minutes at a time. And that solution is gonna require someone smarter than me.
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I never duel. MMORPGs are probably the worst possible dueling game. They're bad at PVP even when it's instanced due to progression elements typically diluting the importance of skill (but much worse in world PVP where population is a huge skill-diluting factor.)
I prefer PVP where victory is gained through skill (knowledge of game mechanics and skillful execution of that knowledge.) There are light arguments that it's a form of skill to mobilize a group of gamers consistently, but I find that subset of skills either outright shallow (bring more friends; join a successful guild) or at best uninteresting (management skills.)
I do PVP a lot, but not in games where skill is diluted and unimportant.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sorry but talking to some random person you may never have met in game in a chat tab is not the same as randomly bumping into 2 strangers sat in a camp 5km off the beaten path (those 2 people are now my best online buddies) with fast travel and the myriad of LFG tools todays MMO's have I would never have met these people. I do also put a lot of the blame on instancing as well no longer would you bump into another group running the same dungeon and help each other out if in a sticky situation and then have some beers in the tavern afterwards with, players simply join run x dungeon leave with little words spoken.
By your definition the "earlier" people who all liked the older way of doing MMO's are also sheeple. I will agree with lazy parenting however my daughter who is 10 is not even allowed on an MMO except Wizard 101 and that's for 1 hour on the weekend. The kids do not believe it to be "unsafe" outside they just choose rather to stay indoors and play videogames which really isn't no different than going over to a buddys house when you were younger going down into the basement to play some D&D besides the immersion in the fake worlds.
Also I would like to argue that not all the people that are in favor of cutting out the BS in the games (Yeah it's real hard to spend 20 minutes getting from point A to point B on the back of a mount) Want to spend an hour in your Global Chanels and Trade Channels and City Channels looking for people what does that solve? You get no player interaction for 1 hour because all that is said in that time frame is what you are looking for ect. Then you have the people that put expectations like "You must have Flaming Buttcheeks of Wrath before you can get in my party" and that has been around longer than ever but as games become more and more about itemization that is the kind of people you will find. You complain that the younger crowd never wants to go outside yet you'd rather have them spending 20 minutes getting somewhere and another hour looking for a group when it can all be done in about 45 minutes (depending on the group you get) in order TO go do something more perhaps outside.
But it still leaves you up to make at least the attempt to converse and interact with the others. HOWEVER I COMPLETELY AGREE with the Instancing. I was in Final Fantasy XI where there was no instancing you'd have literally a lot of people in a zone fighting. If someone ran into a situation they'd call for help and everyone after a fight (if they were in one) would turn around and help that person. And I do miss those days of non instancing hell it's where I met some of my best friends, BUT I have also made friends with people from across realms where I've made characters on their realms and vice versa. It's really just about how social you want to be with people you believe "you will never meet again.
Imagine that, blame it on WoW. Times have changed since, hell, Planes of Power. You want to start pointing fingers, point right there...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
While that is a neat and isolated scenario, it's not how or why most people play an MMO. Sitting together to chat for the hell of it, wandering off the beaten path, looking to make new friends in a vdeo game - this scenario isn't non-existent because of a lack of forced downtime. It's non-existant because most people aren't looking to socialize in an MMO. Depending on their generation, that's what bars, clubs, Facebook, instant messengers, and texting are for. Is it your desire to force people to talk to you that have no desire to do so otherwise?
Instancing and zone copies is a whole separate issue.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"I don't have time" is not a good reason to turn MMOs into FPS games. And you are right OP, we are getting there because of just that arument.
I can't say that I particularly love sitting for hours waiting for a spawn but MMOs needs to add more social things, if nothing else to replace the downtime.
I like spending a long time enjoying the game and not just skip past all the fun parts.
I said it before: The genre needs to split up in 2. Let the people with no time enjoy a even more FPS like game, no need to level up just start to play.
The other type would be more for us who can take ourselves time and enjoy the scenery. That doesn't mean we should spend more time sitting and waiting but that the game should move at it's own pace.
Trying to please both these groups isn't possible and we just get games that makes no one really happy because of it.
Sadly the OP is right.
The facebook generation is turning mmo´s into arcade games with a rpgish interface.
Rawr.
It is possible but the financial backing isn' t there and won't be there till a game that can implement it and implement it right does it and can make money doing so. Because in the end thats all the companies really care for.
Loke666, from your post, it sounds like we actually can please both groups at the same time.
"...MMOs needs to add more social things, if nothing else to replace the downtime."
^----That right there is the solution. Providing more arenas and avenues for socialization allows those that want to chat and make new friends to do so. More importantly, it allows them to do so on their own schedule. What kind of content or features do you feel would further that end?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
It could be that they like the game? I agree with you though if you want 0 human interaction I don't know why you'd play an MMO because you are bound to have to communicate/work with another person to achieve a goal. And it's Non-Exsistent because now MMO's are playing an itemization game with everything to where you can't work outside the box it's Do It This Way or Fail. And do they seriously have a thing you can put on Facebook what you are currently playing? LoL I didn't know that. I do happen to agree with him though about FORCING people to talk. When I go into a cross server group I will try to strike up a conversation if no one else tries to respond I'll go about my buisness get whatever it is I was there to get than leave but in the mean time I'm in guild chat talking with them.
Are you asking me directly, or about that type of player? I'm all for socializing in MMOs. Half my time in any given MMO is spent in General chat or Guild chat. It's not uncommon for me to spend as much time in game as the hardcore players of our guild but still be one fourth their level when they hit cap because I was in Vent or hanging out at the guild city/village/housing/etc.
Now, if your question is why other people would play an MMO if they don't want to socialize, there are plenty of reasons:
- wide range of people to compete against and play with
- regular updates
- ongoing content
- passive PVP (markets, crafting, auction house, etc)
- dirt cheap
Now, I'm curious though about this comment:
"Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do?"
Why is that a bad thing? Could you explain why you see socializing with strangers to be a good thing, but playing a game to be with your friends is bad?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I dont blame WOW I state its a contributing factor the blame IMO firmly sits with lazy parenting and a generation who want everything handed on a plate.
I didn't think of the competition aspect I forgot with some MMOs the PVP aspects of it would be competition and at least with Warcraft they made it a damn tournament every year. Nor did I really think of the investment of X.XX a month as compared to just shelling out 60.00 when a game comes out.
Socializing with strangers is 'good'. Socializing with your friends is 'bad'. Go figure.
Because it's a massive, persistent, ever-changing, ever-growing game world that's got far, far, far more content than any single-player game ever could? You act like if people aren't playing it for the reasons you are, they're somehow wrong. News flash for you, the overwhelming majority of MMO players don't play to socialize.
Deal with it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I dont blame WOW I state its a contributing factor the blame IMO firmly sits with lazy parenting and a generation who want everything handed on a plate.
that comment is right on the ball!parent say oh go play your game ,kid go on wow ,parent come back to see their kids they see him in a dungeon ,and they smile and say ok we got our nounou.they go out without a thot and most of the time they are right they dont need anybody looking for their kids wow is doing it for almost free.parent come back kid is still in front of the screen where they left him having fun ,often parent have to use a crow bar to get the kid in the kitchen to eat .life is good everybody is happy!
lazy parenting?not really ,why pay someone to look for their kid.some have cam to wach their kid and you know what they see,their kids is in front of the computer screen they dont run away etc.so they say screw this we dont need a nounou!
bad parenting?why?parent would stay in the house and look their kid play video game?LOL!
I do not think you have the sequence right. I do not think it is the players that demanded these changes but rather developers wanting to attract more players who cannot invest larger stretches of time and changed the older time investment to smaller chunks. Allowing for other mechanics to continuously whittle away at the Everquest like time concerns. This then became what players looked at and asked for in other games in development. So players not having enough time and asking for the changes in the way games have been developed may not be the right way things have proogressed.
"Not enough time" translates directly into "Not enough patience"
I see the same thing with book reading. When I am trying to read a crapy book I suddenly find that I don't have time to read it, but if its a good book then I can tear though it in days no matter what's going on. Most non-readers say they don't have time to read, but they certainly don't miss a ball game or an episode of American Idol. Its all a sham.
In defense of the impatient, if you don't have time or patience to deal with a game's time sinks, then maybe its the game's fault for not providing an engaging experience. Just like a good book, if the game is good then people won't mind putting time into it.
I would argue that the majority of MMO players actually want to socialize in the game. However, they prefer more focused. close-knti socializing with friends or guildies. Few people seem interested in the server-wide open channel type of socializing.
This is a point most of the people blaming 'instant gratification' or 'laziness' seem to miss. If people find an activity engaging they will 'make time' for it.
To me many of the 'old school' timesinks are equivalent to reading Twilight or watching reality TV. I do not have time for them and I do not wish to make time for them.
You seam to base all your opinions on EQ being the end all be all of MMO design.
When I hear comments about 'the new crowd', 'facebook generation' ect., I feel like it supposes 'the old crowd' AKA EQ/UO/ect stood still in their life, never got married or never got kids (or any responsibilities for that matter) that prevents them from enjoying tedious tasks in a 'game'.
It seems like that's the case, or more generally, that they think the solution is to go back to a system that most people rejected in favor of the new systems.
One of a few reasons those games were (arguably) more social is because of the common interests that much smaller community shared. Secondly, people were bored. Those time sinks were put in to replace replace content, or were there due to inadequate tech. Then somewhere along the line, some dev lead with an IQ over 80 decided that very few people enjoy a 20 minute jog down a road... for the 30th time.
No developer has ANY interest in making their game's community more exclusive(and thus, smaller). Nor do they have any interest in manufacturing boredom in their player base. It worked back then when MMO options were meager and their rivals also lacked content. That dog won't hunt, now.
Now, the problem that Kyleran brings up IS there, I agree. I just disagree that the way to make a game's community more... community-like is to recreate all the old time sinks that make people have to sit around and thus, eventually talk to the guy next to them.
The solution I think we need is in what Loke brought up. MMO's need more social activities and areas. And I'd add that there should be some technical form of character development involved in participating. Or something that helps speed up your normal advancement.
The key isn't in getting rid of the people who don't have 40+ hours a week to play an MMO. The key is in getting people to WILLFULLY engage with other players even if only for 15 minutes at a time. And that solution is gonna require someone smarter than me.