Depends upon the type of game. Anything that is vaguely 'open' definitely allows you to set the pace.
Just look at games like Oblivion, or Fallout 3. I have one friend who beat Fallout 3 in 30 hours, I played about twice that and never beat it, and I have a friend who collected EVERY SINGLE OBJECT in the game and put it in a house. Not 'one copy of every object'... every object he could find. He scoured every building and location and ransacked them blind and stocked his house. It takes several minutes for him to open a drawer at the house.
He beat the game, but it certainly took longer than 30 hours.
Unless there is a game-imposed time limit of some sort, you can set the pace. Time limit doesn't have to be a literal counter, but things like Pac-Man obviously don't let you set the pace, because of the constant pressure, which creates a very immediate sort of time limit.
I would think most MMOs let you set the pace, and the main limitation is the other players you're with. You don't even have to stop playing, in any MMO that offers any sort of breadth... you could be sorting your inventory, crafting, socializing, discussing strategy... all things that fall under the general MMO 'game'.
My pace in an MMO can often be glacial, because I'll kill something, hide someplace safe, and do other things like the dishes or something, and quick hurry back if I hear 'Oh god I think I'm dying' noises.
Games designed like that forget that the adventure is with the journey. Progessing levels shouldn't be a matter of grinding ot the top; it should come with actually playing your role in the game world... you know, that thing the RPG stands for Role-Playing-Game. Honeslty, most MMO's on the market (WoW and its clones) have no role for people to play until they raid end-game and then it's a race to get the latest stuff.
I'm a little sad that simply playing an older MMORPG apparently counts as 'roleplaying'. Just goes to show how badly the term has degraded since computer RPGs came along.
It's shameful and embarassing you'd look down upon WoW players when the average 'roleplaying' in an MMO... any MMO... is horribly subpar by the standards of anybody who's done a halfway decent job of P&P roleplaying.
Sort of like looking down on Vampirates as 'bad vampire literature' and talking about how it sure has gone down hill since you read Twilight.
Be careful about looking down on people, because other people are standing higher and looking down on you.
Out of context - I wasn't looking down at the people, but looking down at the games for making their players play like this. The game i continued to mention was Uncharted Waters Online, which is only a few years old, not EQ or UO aged.
It's the game mechanics in a game such as that, however, that give people a role to play vs. the mechanics used in games like WoW. Hunter, Druid, Healer, etc. it doesn't matter, you're still a statistic bashing mobs all day long.
Depends upon the type of game. Anything that is vaguely 'open' definitely allows you to set the pace.
Just look at games like Oblivion, or Fallout 3. I have one friend who beat Fallout 3 in 30 hours, I played about twice that and never beat it, and I have a friend who collected EVERY SINGLE OBJECT in the game and put it in a house. Not 'one copy of every object'... every object he could find. He scoured every building and location and ransacked them blind and stocked his house. It takes several minutes for him to open a drawer at the house.
He beat the game, but it certainly took longer than 30 hours.
Unless there is a game-imposed time limit of some sort, you can set the pace. Time limit doesn't have to be a literal counter, but things like Pac-Man obviously don't let you set the pace, because of the constant pressure, which creates a very immediate sort of time limit.
I would think most MMOs let you set the pace, and the main limitation is the other players you're with.
No, incorrect.
The "pace" is the fastest you can do the quests or gind mobs.
That is set by the developers when they program the game.
You cannot change that.
You can either play the game they made or not.
You can't change the "pace" which is hard coded into the game.
When I ask for a "slower paced" game, I am not asking for permission to stop playing the game.
I am asking for a game that is hard coded at a slower maximum pace.
I am asking for this because I think it would be fun, not because I want to change your fun.
I want you to continue to play a fast paced game if that's what you like, and I want developers to make fast paced games for you to play.
Now, would you NOT want me to play a slow paced game, and NOT want developers to make a slow paced game for me?
If so, why? Why would it bother you that I play a slow paced game, while you play a fast paced game?
Out of context - I wasn't looking down at the people, but looking down at the games for making their players play like this. The game i continued to mention was Uncharted Waters Online, which is only a few years old, not EQ or UO aged.
It's the game mechanics in a game such as that, however, that give people a role to play vs. the mechanics used in games like WoW. Hunter, Druid, Healer, etc. it doesn't matter, you're still a statistic bashing mobs all day long.
Funny you should look down on any game at all, then.
Seriously, it's hardly roleplaying in the classic sense. Even the games with the most choices for a character, like a Bioware game or something... it's still more of a glorified Choose Your Own Adventure rather than anything like actual roleplaying and acting out a character with any depth.
Depth doesn't come from stats or special skills, it comes from... personality and the heart of a character. Which MMOs don't really have.
Characters in MMOs have the level of character depth that would be embarassing if they turned up as a background character in a 3rd rate romance novel.
The "pace" is the fastest you can do the quests or gind mobs.
That is set by the developers when they program the game.
You cannot change that.
You can either play the game they made or not.
You can't change the "pace" which is hard coded into the game.
When I ask for a "slower paced" game, I am not asking for permission to stop playing the game.
I am asking for a game that is hard coded at a slower maximum pace.
I am asking for this because I think it would be fun, not because I want to change your fun.
I want you to continue to play a fast paced game if that's what you like, and I want developers to make fast paced games for you to play.
Now, would you NOT want me to play a slow paced game, and NOT want developers to make a slow paced game for me?
If so, why? Why would it bother you that I play a slow paced game, while you play a fast paced game?
You are defining pace as 'maximum pace', which seems odd, because not many definitions include an adjective and then the word itself.
There is always some crazy guild that beats the content twice as fast as any other guild, and 30 times faster than your average good guild.
Does that mean only a single guild is following the actual pace of the game?
Just because some people run a marathon and do it incredibly fast, does not mean people can not beat it at their own pace.
We're using the word 'pace' in a different way. I'm using, so far as I understand it, the word pace to mean itself. You keep talking about 'maximum pace', which... well look! That's an adjective. If I say car, I mean cars in general, if you say a blue car, you specifically are talking about blue cars.
People can set their own pace in most things. Hmm. A look at the dictionary shows I am using this definition of pace:
2.
a rate of activity, progress, growth, performance, etc.; tempo.
I'm pretty sure at some fundamental level we're just disagreeing on how we're defining pace, as your argument doesn't make any sense at all with the way I'm thinking of pace, so I'm assuming the opposite holds true.
Gets to repetitive and boring, IMO. Makes it more epic if you have to rest once in a while.
You can get this type of pacing without using extended downtime. If you are doing quests you leave the fight to turn in quests. I can see how somoen who is endlessly grinding XP might be burned out by this but you really just need some self control and switch things up when you get bored with one activity.
The 'old school' pacing tends to look like
fight, figth, watch paint dry for 15 minutes, fight, fight, back to the paint.
When arguing one must be careful not to take the discussion to the extremes. Extended downtime does not necessarily imply a 15 minute wait, in fact its probably more like 1-3 minutes tops. If you're in a group this is a minor inconvenience however when soloing it's intolerable. Toss in game mechanics that allows a person or group reduce downtime through strategic combat choices/playstyle and correct use of objects (potions,campfires etc) and you build an interesting and challenging game.
But as Ihmotepp said, right now the pacing of these games is being sped up faster and faster. I run through dungeons in WOW and it's instant in, fight fight fight with nary a word said (I honestly cannot keep up with the pacing the other players run at) and then out you go again. In it's latest incarnation some of the new content doesn't even require the player to return to the quest giver, you can complete it on the fly and go to the next leg in the chain right on the spot.
I can only say that I personally found the pacing in early DAOC to be just about right though I'm not sure at the time I fully appreciated it until games like WOW came along and changed the forumula. (You never appreciate what you have until its gone)
I don't know if modern MMO players even realize that their is alternatives to the MMO style they're currently playing or if they truly prefer the way it is now to the way it was then. I'm sure for some folks they like the current design, but for a number of us (who've posted here) I guess we look for a less frantic experience.
The thing about the pacing is that the player set it. In its current state for WOW and most MMOs using similar static spawn/patrol mechanics, you can charge through non-stop if you want or pause when you want. The users have a choice as to the speed they want to play through the content. If most people are charging through, then that seems to be what most people want. It sounds like you are asking for mechanics that force people to play in a manner that the current mechanics already show they don't want to play in.
Personally, I'd take optional downtime based on my group's preferences and schedule over an arbitrary forced restriction designed solely to retard the group's progress. Mind you, I'm that chatty slow-leveller in WOW that's still at level 32 long after the rest of the guild has hit 70+, but I'm not about to suggest that the game impede the progress of everyone else on the server just because I enjoy a slower pace of gameplay.
I think this is fundamentally incorrect.
The player CANNOT set the pace of the game.
The player can either play, or not play the game.
You are saying, stop playing the game.
That is not the same as "setting the pace".
No one said stop playing. You're trasnferring your view onto other playstyles.You have made it clear that if that game allows for a max of X experience per hour than anything a player does less than that cap is wasting time. Choosing to stop because you want to stop is wasting time. Anything that isn't max xp/hr is a waste of time.
Currently, the way most of these MMOs are designed, If I'm in a group and we want to pause now and then for bio breaks or coffee breaks, we can. The spawn rates, mob travel patterns and such are all conducive to players setting the pace as fast or slow as they want. It is player choice. You state in every thread about downtime and grouping that you want to powergame through the content with maximum efficiency. This is why you view player choice to rest or chat as a point where the players are 'not playing the game.' They may not be getting XP at that moment, but to say they are not playing the game when they are chatting or rebuffing is to say that all content outside levelling is not gameplay - to which I say that may be the case for you, but not everyone.
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
The part about spawn, patrol and aggro ties in with my whole point about games like Pac-Man truly setting a pace.
You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die.
MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments.
Gets to repetitive and boring, IMO. Makes it more epic if you have to rest once in a while.
You can get this type of pacing without using extended downtime. If you are doing quests you leave the fight to turn in quests. I can see how somoen who is endlessly grinding XP might be burned out by this but you really just need some self control and switch things up when you get bored with one activity.
The 'old school' pacing tends to look like
fight, figth, watch paint dry for 15 minutes, fight, fight, back to the paint.
When arguing one must be careful not to take the discussion to the extremes. Extended downtime does not necessarily imply a 15 minute wait, in fact its probably more like 1-3 minutes tops. If you're in a group this is a minor inconvenience however when soloing it's intolerable. Toss in game mechanics that allows a person or group reduce downtime through strategic combat choices/playstyle and correct use of objects (potions,campfires etc) and you build an interesting and challenging game.
But as Ihmotepp said, right now the pacing of these games is being sped up faster and faster. I run through dungeons in WOW and it's instant in, fight fight fight with nary a word said (I honestly cannot keep up with the pacing the other players run at) and then out you go again. In it's latest incarnation some of the new content doesn't even require the player to return to the quest giver, you can complete it on the fly and go to the next leg in the chain right on the spot.
I can only say that I personally found the pacing in early DAOC to be just about right though I'm not sure at the time I fully appreciated it until games like WOW came along and changed the forumula. (You never appreciate what you have until its gone)
I don't know if modern MMO players even realize that their is alternatives to the MMO style they're currently playing or if they truly prefer the way it is now to the way it was then. I'm sure for some folks they like the current design, but for a number of us (who've posted here) I guess we look for a less frantic experience.
The thing about the pacing is that the player set it. In its current state for WOW and most MMOs using similar static spawn/patrol mechanics, you can charge through non-stop if you want or pause when you want. The users have a choice as to the speed they want to play through the content. If most people are charging through, then that seems to be what most people want. It sounds like you are asking for mechanics that force people to play in a manner that the current mechanics already show they don't want to play in.
Personally, I'd take optional downtime based on my group's preferences and schedule over an arbitrary forced restriction designed solely to retard the group's progress. Mind you, I'm that chatty slow-leveller in WOW that's still at level 32 long after the rest of the guild has hit 70+, but I'm not about to suggest that the game impede the progress of everyone else on the server just because I enjoy a slower pace of gameplay.
I think this is fundamentally incorrect.
The player CANNOT set the pace of the game.
The player can either play, or not play the game.
You are saying, stop playing the game.
That is not the same as "setting the pace".
No one said stop playing. You're trasnferring your view onto other playstyles.You have made it clear that if that game allows for a max of X experience per hour than anything a player does less than that cap is wasting time. Choosing to stop because you want to stop is wasting time. Anything that isn't max xp/hr is a waste of time.
Currently, the way most of these MMOs are designed, If I'm in a group and want to pause now and then for bio breaks or coffee breaks, we can. The spawn rates, mob travel pattersn and such are all conducive to players setting the pace as fast or slow as they want. It is player choice. You have made it very clear in every thread about downtime and grouping that you want to powergame through the content with maximum efficiency. This is why you view player choice to rest or chat tas a point where the players are 'not playing the game.' They may not be getting XP at that moment, but to say they are not playing the game when they are chatting or rebuffing is to say that all content outside levelling is not gameplay - to which I say that may be the case for you,
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
Instead of arguing semantics, or what my "motives" might be, how about this.
I would like a game with a slower pace.
Because I think it woudl be fun to play.
I played DaoC. DAoC had a slower pace than WoW.
I played WoW. WoW had a faster pace than DAoC.
I liked the pace of DAoC better than WoW.
Your tastes may differ. That's fine with me.
I cannot play WoW and pretend it has the same pace as DAoC, because it does not.
Do you think there's anything wrong with me wanting a game with a pace closer to DAoC than WoW?
Out of context - I wasn't looking down at the people, but looking down at the games for making their players play like this. The game i continued to mention was Uncharted Waters Online, which is only a few years old, not EQ or UO aged.
It's the game mechanics in a game such as that, however, that give people a role to play vs. the mechanics used in games like WoW. Hunter, Druid, Healer, etc. it doesn't matter, you're still a statistic bashing mobs all day long.
Funny you should look down on any game at all, then.
Seriously, it's hardly roleplaying in the classic sense. Even the games with the most choices for a character, like a Bioware game or something... it's still more of a glorified Choose Your Own Adventure rather than anything like actual roleplaying and acting out a character with any depth.
Depth doesn't come from stats or special skills, it comes from... personality and the heart of a character. Which MMOs don't really have.
Characters in MMOs have the level of character depth that would be embarassing if they turned up as a background character in a 3rd rate romance novel.
Says who? Some of the game mechanics, in a game like WOW, is so complex that people are creating simulation tools, and stochastic optimization methods to figure out how to optimize dps.
That is tactical depth.
Not everything has to be fuzzy feeling & thee-and-thou to have depth. Chess has great depth and it does not even have characters.
Says who? Some of the game mechanics, in a game like WOW, is so complex that people are creating simulation tools, and stochastic optimization methods to figure out how to optimize dps.
That is tactical depth.
Not everything has to be fuzzy feeling & thee-and-thou to have depth. Chess has great depth and it does not even have characters.
I was talking about character and roleplaying depth. Tactical depth deals with game systems, not with the roleplaying.
If you think Chess is great roleplaying, then I'm going to give up right now, I'm obviously not going to win this discussion.
It wasnt us people who grew up on UO EQ SWG (insert other MMO here) who forced these changes I have the same time now as I had in 2003 and pre-cu SWG, we where happy with the world our jobs, family life other hobbies allowed us time in, we are of a generation like our fathers before us who have to work for what we earn wether that be real life or gaming and we loved it.
In those early days there where few of this new generation playing, they couldnt understand the concept of paying monthly to play a game and they didnt have cards to pay with readily available.
Then slowly over time gamecards and other accesible to the u16 market payment methods became available and lazy parents began to cotton onto the fact their kids would sit in their room 24/7 playing these things £10 a month for a virtual babysitter was appealing I have lost count of the amount of horror stories I have heard of kids as yound as 8 being left at home whilst mum goes to Bingo and the childs left with their virtual babysitter, they then have the cheek to blame the game when their kid tells them to F Off or whatever choice language they learned in game.
Then along came WOW and the sheeple effect we see with apple products these arent MMO players hell a lot arent even gamers they just want somewhere they can interact with their friends and never leave the house because this generation has this opinion that the outside world is simply unsafe again brought on by lazy parenting and not teaching kids how to stay safe when out and about why bother when you can just lock them in their room with their MMOBSS Massivley Multiplayer Online Baby Sitting Service.
A combination of a lazy generation of parents and kids who expect everything handed on a plate to them lead to the crap we get now, not the players who pioneered into the land of MMO's and may not have as much time in 2011 as they did in 1999.
It's a game dude. Don't try and pretend like it is the equivalent of hard work and it should be hard. The generation of your father before you didn't have internet, didn't have facebook, didn't have cell phones. This is a luxury. Your father and his father are probably rolling in their graves at this post right now. You kind of over dramatized the situation don't ya think?
I have also heard horror stories of Moms and Dads leaving their 2 year old or 6 month old babies at home while they go off to some cyber cafe to play games like AION for hours on end.
Gets to repetitive and boring, IMO. Makes it more epic if you have to rest once in a while.
You can get this type of pacing without using extended downtime. If you are doing quests you leave the fight to turn in quests. I can see how somoen who is endlessly grinding XP might be burned out by this but you really just need some self control and switch things up when you get bored with one activity.
The 'old school' pacing tends to look like
fight, figth, watch paint dry for 15 minutes, fight, fight, back to the paint.
When arguing one must be careful not to take the discussion to the extremes. Extended downtime does not necessarily imply a 15 minute wait, in fact its probably more like 1-3 minutes tops. If you're in a group this is a minor inconvenience however when soloing it's intolerable. Toss in game mechanics that allows a person or group reduce downtime through strategic combat choices/playstyle and correct use of objects (potions,campfires etc) and you build an interesting and challenging game.
But as Ihmotepp said, right now the pacing of these games is being sped up faster and faster. I run through dungeons in WOW and it's instant in, fight fight fight with nary a word said (I honestly cannot keep up with the pacing the other players run at) and then out you go again. In it's latest incarnation some of the new content doesn't even require the player to return to the quest giver, you can complete it on the fly and go to the next leg in the chain right on the spot.
I can only say that I personally found the pacing in early DAOC to be just about right though I'm not sure at the time I fully appreciated it until games like WOW came along and changed the forumula. (You never appreciate what you have until its gone)
I don't know if modern MMO players even realize that their is alternatives to the MMO style they're currently playing or if they truly prefer the way it is now to the way it was then. I'm sure for some folks they like the current design, but for a number of us (who've posted here) I guess we look for a less frantic experience.
The thing about the pacing is that the player set it. In its current state for WOW and most MMOs using similar static spawn/patrol mechanics, you can charge through non-stop if you want or pause when you want. The users have a choice as to the speed they want to play through the content. If most people are charging through, then that seems to be what most people want. It sounds like you are asking for mechanics that force people to play in a manner that the current mechanics already show they don't want to play in.
Personally, I'd take optional downtime based on my group's preferences and schedule over an arbitrary forced restriction designed solely to retard the group's progress. Mind you, I'm that chatty slow-leveller in WOW that's still at level 32 long after the rest of the guild has hit 70+, but I'm not about to suggest that the game impede the progress of everyone else on the server just because I enjoy a slower pace of gameplay.
I think this is fundamentally incorrect.
The player CANNOT set the pace of the game.
The player can either play, or not play the game.
You are saying, stop playing the game.
That is not the same as "setting the pace".
No one said stop playing. You're trasnferring your view onto other playstyles.You have made it clear that if that game allows for a max of X experience per hour than anything a player does less than that cap is wasting time. Choosing to stop because you want to stop is wasting time. Anything that isn't max xp/hr is a waste of time.
Currently, the way most of these MMOs are designed, If I'm in a group and want to pause now and then for bio breaks or coffee breaks, we can. The spawn rates, mob travel pattersn and such are all conducive to players setting the pace as fast or slow as they want. It is player choice. You have made it very clear in every thread about downtime and grouping that you want to powergame through the content with maximum efficiency. This is why you view player choice to rest or chat tas a point where the players are 'not playing the game.' They may not be getting XP at that moment, but to say they are not playing the game when they are chatting or rebuffing is to say that all content outside levelling is not gameplay - to which I say that may be the case for you,
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
Instead of arguing semantics, or what my "motives" might be, how about this.
I would like a game with a slower pace.
Because I think it woudl be fun to play.
I played DaoC. DAoC had a slower pace than WoW.
I played WoW. WoW had a faster pace than DAoC.
I liked the pace of DAoC better than WoW.
Your tastes may differ. That's fine with me.
I cannot play WoW and pretend it has the same pace as DAoC, because it does not.
Do you think there's anything wrong with me wanting a game with a pace closer to DAoC than WoW?
Nothing wrong with that at all. Stating that you prefer a game that limits your pace is very different from stating that the ability to choose pace is not present at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
We all know you like balance mate. But balance isent fun.. I dont like Sports for example.. Football. Icehocky or any other kind. E-sport is boring. Winning againt superior numbers because you outsmarted them is Rewarding though... Getting slaughterd if you mess up is Needed to become better.
You cant take loss, Im sorry but you cant.. all your post I have read regarding the subject sugests you got ase raped in some sanbox and have still not gotten over it..
Outnumbered situations and losses happen all the time in balanced PVP. When myself and a medic jump around the corner in TF2 and obliterate 5-7 opponents with just the two of us, that's an outnumbered situation.
So I get the exact same fun you get from outsmarting opponents -- I just don't have to put up with 99% of my fights being bland one-sided slaughters.
I don't even know why you mention that getting slaughtered for messing up is needed to become better.
In games with balanced PVP, if you mess up you lose. They're skill-based games. If you lack skill you lose.
In games with world PVP, if you mess up, no problem! You're traveling with a zergy mob and victory was predetermined from the onset -- you could probably AFK and beat the snot out of them still.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gets to repetitive and boring, IMO. Makes it more epic if you have to rest once in a while.
You can get this type of pacing without using extended downtime. If you are doing quests you leave the fight to turn in quests. I can see how somoen who is endlessly grinding XP might be burned out by this but you really just need some self control and switch things up when you get bored with one activity.
The 'old school' pacing tends to look like
fight, figth, watch paint dry for 15 minutes, fight, fight, back to the paint.
When arguing one must be careful not to take the discussion to the extremes. Extended downtime does not necessarily imply a 15 minute wait, in fact its probably more like 1-3 minutes tops. If you're in a group this is a minor inconvenience however when soloing it's intolerable. Toss in game mechanics that allows a person or group reduce downtime through strategic combat choices/playstyle and correct use of objects (potions,campfires etc) and you build an interesting and challenging game.
But as Ihmotepp said, right now the pacing of these games is being sped up faster and faster. I run through dungeons in WOW and it's instant in, fight fight fight with nary a word said (I honestly cannot keep up with the pacing the other players run at) and then out you go again. In it's latest incarnation some of the new content doesn't even require the player to return to the quest giver, you can complete it on the fly and go to the next leg in the chain right on the spot.
I can only say that I personally found the pacing in early DAOC to be just about right though I'm not sure at the time I fully appreciated it until games like WOW came along and changed the forumula. (You never appreciate what you have until its gone)
I don't know if modern MMO players even realize that their is alternatives to the MMO style they're currently playing or if they truly prefer the way it is now to the way it was then. I'm sure for some folks they like the current design, but for a number of us (who've posted here) I guess we look for a less frantic experience.
The thing about the pacing is that the player set it. In its current state for WOW and most MMOs using similar static spawn/patrol mechanics, you can charge through non-stop if you want or pause when you want. The users have a choice as to the speed they want to play through the content. If most people are charging through, then that seems to be what most people want. It sounds like you are asking for mechanics that force people to play in a manner that the current mechanics already show they don't want to play in.
Personally, I'd take optional downtime based on my group's preferences and schedule over an arbitrary forced restriction designed solely to retard the group's progress. Mind you, I'm that chatty slow-leveller in WOW that's still at level 32 long after the rest of the guild has hit 70+, but I'm not about to suggest that the game impede the progress of everyone else on the server just because I enjoy a slower pace of gameplay.
I think this is fundamentally incorrect.
The player CANNOT set the pace of the game.
The player can either play, or not play the game.
You are saying, stop playing the game.
That is not the same as "setting the pace".
No one said stop playing. You're trasnferring your view onto other playstyles.You have made it clear that if that game allows for a max of X experience per hour than anything a player does less than that cap is wasting time. Choosing to stop because you want to stop is wasting time. Anything that isn't max xp/hr is a waste of time.
Currently, the way most of these MMOs are designed, If I'm in a group and want to pause now and then for bio breaks or coffee breaks, we can. The spawn rates, mob travel pattersn and such are all conducive to players setting the pace as fast or slow as they want. It is player choice. You have made it very clear in every thread about downtime and grouping that you want to powergame through the content with maximum efficiency. This is why you view player choice to rest or chat tas a point where the players are 'not playing the game.' They may not be getting XP at that moment, but to say they are not playing the game when they are chatting or rebuffing is to say that all content outside levelling is not gameplay - to which I say that may be the case for you,
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
Instead of arguing semantics, or what my "motives" might be, how about this.
I would like a game with a slower pace.
Because I think it woudl be fun to play.
I played DaoC. DAoC had a slower pace than WoW.
I played WoW. WoW had a faster pace than DAoC.
I liked the pace of DAoC better than WoW.
Your tastes may differ. That's fine with me.
I cannot play WoW and pretend it has the same pace as DAoC, because it does not.
Do you think there's anything wrong with me wanting a game with a pace closer to DAoC than WoW?
Nothing wrong with that at all. Stating that you prefer a game that limits your pace is very different from stating that the ability to choose pace is not present at all.
It is a case of miscommunication then, because I thought you were saying it's wrong to want a slower paced game, since you can always play a fast paced game and take breaks.
The ability to choose your pace is present in all games. You can always stop making xp and chat in every MMORPG.
But yes, I want a slower maximum pace, something closer to DAoC.
I thought that City of Heroes was fun, but that the pace in that game was to fast, a bit to hectic.
We've all seen it, the phrase "I don't have enough time" used to justify why players demand game mechanics so prevalent in most modern MMORPG's.
There are lots of discussions about this on places like Raph Koster's blog, and other gaming websites all over. It's the debate between "worldy" and "gamey" games.
e.g. as a game WoW is a brilliant piece of design. As a "world", it's less of a virtual world, but still more of a virtual world than some of the more recent "WoW clones", some of which have very little feel of a virtual world at all (e.g. AoC, although the zones are very pretty and immersive in themselves, something about the way they're linked makes the game world not feel like a world, whereas Azeroth stlil feels like a world to some extent).
Now, it's true that "worldy" games do require more time investment; but really, I don't think it's so much that gamers have grown older and have less time, although that is a factor (as you point out, you can organize your time for your hobby even if you have a family, if you're sensible abou it). It's more that WoW showed there's a huge untapped market of casual gamers out there, who wouldn't be prepared to devote that much time in the first place - i.e. they're just not so much interested in the "worldy" aspect. They definitely just want a "game" - something to dip in and out of - that has just enough of a "worldy" feel to distinguish it from a single player game. Plus a built-in chatbox.
But thinking about it, actually, my line of argument here could be seen as an endorsement of the "worldy" aspect.
i.e. maybe the reason WoW remains so successful is precisely because it still retains some old-skool "worldy" feel that the more recent "clones" lack?
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
The part about spawn, patrol and aggro ties in with my whole point about games like Pac-Man truly setting a pace.
You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die.
MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments.
Your defintion about pacing in MMO's is good in theory, players are free to set whatever pacing they want. In practical application, at least in the case of WOW dungeons, players run them as quickly as possible in order to maximize their rate of return in the form of experience (not so much), gear (the primary driver) or accomplishment. (always fun to beat it the 1st time).
Doesn't matter if you are doing raids with guilds, or pugs with dungeon-finder, players generally run at maximum speed and truth is, whenever I'm in any of the dungeons we're going so fast I can't spend 10 seconds looking around (or even get my bearings), we just press forward to the next set of mobs.
I was running an dungeon a few weeks ago with my son, and I started to go up a staircase and he stopped me saying I was heading the wrong way. We never did go up that staircase, so asked him if he ever had and he said no, groups always skipped that part of the instance because there were no decent drops/dungeon objectives from taking that path.
I feel the entire game is that way (as are most modern games), its all about the min/maxing of every attitude and no time spent actually just enjoying the game world.
Heck, these folks don't even realize their missing something, which is probably the most unfortunate thing of all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
The part about spawn, patrol and aggro ties in with my whole point about games like Pac-Man truly setting a pace.
You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die.
MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments.
Your defintion about pacing in MMO's is good in theory, players are free to set whatever pacing they want. In practical application, at least in the case of WOW dungeons, players run them as quickly as possible in order to maximize their rate of return in the form of experience (not so much), gear (the primary driver) or accomplishment. (always fun to beat it the 1st time).
Doesn't matter if you are doing raids with guilds, or pugs with dungeon-finder, players generally run at maximum speed and truth is, whenever I'm in any of the dungeons we're going so fast I can't spend 10 seconds looking around (or even get my bearings), we just press forward to the next set of mobs.
I was running an dungeon a few weeks ago with my son, and I started to go up a staircase and he stopped me saying I was heading the wrong way. We never did go up that staircase, so asked him if he ever had and he said no, groups always skipped that part of the instance because there were no decent drops/dungeon objectives from taking that path.
I feel the entire game is that way (as are most modern games), its all about the min/maxing of every attitude and no time spent actually just enjoying the game world.
Heck, these folks don't even realize their missing something, which is probably the most unfortunate thing of all.
Here's the thing about the maximum pace you can play the game.
MMORPGs are, at least in part, about playing the game as a team. I mean playing in the same group, not just being on the same server.
So the group can decide to go at the maximum pace. If that's a little to hectic for me, then I have to drop out of that group and play solo, or play the game at a pace that's a bit to hectic for me.
In a game like DaoC, the group cannot play the game at a pace that is to hectic for me, because there is built in downtime that makes you rest to regain mana, hit points, recover from rez sickness, etc.
And I find that 99% of groups will play the game at the fastest pace allowed by the game. Yes, you CAN say, well, let's all take a break to look at the scenery for a moment, but nobody does that. Sure, they take bio breaks, but I have to pee or get another drink like everyone else, and then it's back to fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, quest reward, kthxbye!....
In a game like DAoC there's enough time to take a look at the scenery, without making anyone stop gaining XP at the maximum rate. The maximum rate is already set to allow you to look at the scenery, and I like that.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
The part about spawn, patrol and aggro ties in with my whole point about games like Pac-Man truly setting a pace. You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die. MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments. Your defintion about pacing in MMO's is good in theory, players are free to set whatever pacing they want. In practical application, at least in the case of WOW dungeons, players run them as quickly as possible in order to maximize their rate of return in the form of experience (not so much), gear (the primary driver) or accomplishment. (always fun to beat it the 1st time). Doesn't matter if you are doing raids with guilds, or pugs with dungeon-finder, players generally run at maximum speed and truth is, whenever I'm in any of the dungeons we're going so fast I can't spend 10 seconds looking around (or even get my bearings), we just press forward to the next set of mobs. I was running an dungeon a few weeks ago with my son, and I started to go up a staircase and he stopped me saying I was heading the wrong way. We never did go up that staircase, so asked him if he ever had and he said no, groups always skipped that part of the instance because there were no decent drops/dungeon objectives from taking that path. I feel the entire game is that way (as are most modern games), its all about the min/maxing of every attitude and no time spent actually just enjoying the game world. Heck, these folks don't even realize their missing something, which is probably the most unfortunate thing of all.
Those folks probably weren't missing anything they were interested in. Even if they went up the staircase and saw that portion of the dungeon, they'd probably just shrug and say, "Nice" and then forget about it.
If you're playing a 'game', then the extra world stuff is just an obstacle to achieving your objectives. If you're exploring a 'world' then the extra world stuff is the objective.
I alternate between playing a 'game' and playing in a 'world'. In 'game' mode, I get the objectives done and I'm not terribly interested in the world. In 'world' mode, I like to see what's behind the next corner or up that staircase that nobody is walking up. Some mmorpg have both options available.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ihmotepp, have you tried Vangaurd? If so, how do you feel about the pace of that game? The reason I ask is because, for me, it's one of the few MMOs that offers a slower pace but doesn't make me feel like I'm just completely halting gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not a fan of having downtime where there's nothing to do except wait. I like certain advancements the genre has made since the time of DAOC where you now have 5 things you could be working on and want to do, and only limited time. Instead of sitting around waiting to heal, you're ready to go again in minimal time so you can get to accomplishing your goals. I do remember DAOC and EQ and other games where you had to sit and rest for sometimes minutes between fights, and I honestly think the genre has evolved in a good way from that system.
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
The part about spawn, patrol and aggro ties in with my whole point about games like Pac-Man truly setting a pace.
You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die.
MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments.
Your defintion about pacing in MMO's is good in theory, players are free to set whatever pacing they want. In practical application, at least in the case of WOW dungeons, players run them as quickly as possible in order to maximize their rate of return in the form of experience (not so much), gear (the primary driver) or accomplishment. (always fun to beat it the 1st time).
Doesn't matter if you are doing raids with guilds, or pugs with dungeon-finder, players generally run at maximum speed and truth is, whenever I'm in any of the dungeons we're going so fast I can't spend 10 seconds looking around (or even get my bearings), we just press forward to the next set of mobs.
I was running an dungeon a few weeks ago with my son, and I started to go up a staircase and he stopped me saying I was heading the wrong way. We never did go up that staircase, so asked him if he ever had and he said no, groups always skipped that part of the instance because there were no decent drops/dungeon objectives from taking that path.
I feel the entire game is that way (as are most modern games), its all about the min/maxing of every attitude and no time spent actually just enjoying the game world.
Heck, these folks don't even realize their missing something, which is probably the most unfortunate thing of all.
Those folks probably weren't missing anything they were interested in. Even if they went up the staircase and saw that portion of the dungeon, they'd probably just shrug and say, "Nice" and then forget about it.
If you're playing a 'game', then the extra world stuff is just an obstacle to achieving your objectives. If you're exploring a 'world' then the extra world stuff is the objective.
I alternate between playing a 'game' and playing in a 'world'. In 'game' mode, I get the objectives done and I'm not terribly interested in the world. In 'world' mode, I like to see what's behind the next corner or up that staircase that nobody is walking up. Some mmorpg have both options available.
That world aspect of MMOs why I preferred the pre-60 dungeon content in WOW over the raid content. It was so much easier to find groups that want to do things like stop and fight all the extra mobs in a room for the heck of it, sidetrack to another room just because there's a chest/resource/novelty in that section, go fishing in a water source just because it was there, or other explaratory or non-essential diversions.
The freeform nature of UO dungeons and UO team play is very conducive to variable pacing. It seems like the less scripted the experience is and the more conducive to PUGs the content is, the more players are willing to take their time through the content. In most MMOs, it doesn't seem many people really are interested in much more than the xp and the epic drop. I think that's more because of the design and emphasis of the game than anything else. For example, if you took the epics out of the raid dungeon, would people still bother to run them? If not, then unless the sole purpose of the entire dungeon was to be an obstacle to getting the purple item, the dungeon was pretty poorly design to be gin with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ihmotepp, have you tried Vangaurd? If so, how do you feel about the pace of that game? The reason I ask is because, for me, it's one of the few MMOs that offers a slower pace but doesn't make me feel like I'm just completely halting gameplay.
I did played the Vanguard beta, and I agree that the pace of that game is just about right. It is a quesiton of degree, not just really slow or really fast.
And getting that setting just right is not an easy thing to do. But yes, in Vanguard I did not feel rushed, like I did in say City of Heroes. In City of Heroes I would get in groups with a bubble healer that mitigated damage with force fields, and a classic healer that healed damage, a tank, and a DPS.
We could literally fight nonstop, without ever having to slow down to heal, regain hit points, etc. Yea, it's fun, but it's also kind of exhausting. Fight, fight, fight, fight, run to next mission, fight, fight, fight...
And YES, of course you could say, well, let's not play at such a hectic pace, let's slow down a little and ..... before you got finished, half the group is gone to do something else, which is fine since that's what they want to do, but the point is if you wanna group, you gotta keep up with the pace.
Vanguard did get the pacing right, for me at least, but had other significant flaws, which are probably an entire topic that's been covered many times.
So if you liked the pace of Vanguard, so did I, which shows there is a happy medium. The pace doesn't have to be so slow you feel the game is stopped, or so fast I feel rushed.
Ihmotepp, have you tried Vangaurd? If so, how do you feel about the pace of that game? The reason I ask is because, for me, it's one of the few MMOs that offers a slower pace but doesn't make me feel like I'm just completely halting gameplay.
I did played the Vanguard beta, and I agree that the pace of that game is just about right. It is a quesiton of degree, not just really slow or really fast.
And getting that setting just right is not an easy thing to do. But yes, in Vanguard I did not feel rushed, like I did in say City of Heroes. In City of Heroes I would get in groups with a bubble healer that mitigated damage with force fields, and a classic healer that healed damage, a tank, and a DPS.
We could literally fight nonstop, without ever having to slow down to heal, regain hit points, etc. Yea, it's fun, but it's also kind of exhausting. Fight, fight, fight, fight, run to next mission, fight, fight, fight...
And YES, of course you could say, well, let's not play at such a hectic pace, let's slow down a little and ..... before you got finished, half the group is gone to do something else, which is fine since that's what they want to do, but the point is if you wanna group, you gotta keep up with the pace.
Vanguard did get the pacing right, for me at least, but had other significant flaws, which are probably an entire topic that's been covered many times.
So if you liked the pace of Vanguard, so did I, which shows there is a happy medium. The pace doesn't have to be so slow you feel the game is stopped, or so fast I feel rushed.
For a SuperHero game, the pace is perfect.
If it wasn't "fight fight fight, dont stop for rest, fight fight fight, now off to fight some more!" then it would suck as a SuperHero game.
In other words, if CoH was at Vanguard's pace, it would be awful.
But I agree entirely that Vanguard had an amazing pace in beta! I loved it
Did they up XP gains in classic? I'm currently on a free trial...again...lol...
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I don't know if modern MMO players even realize that their is alternatives to the MMO style they're currently playing or if they truly prefer the way it is now to the way it was then. I'm sure for some folks they like the current design, but for a number of us (who've posted here) I guess we look for a less frantic experience.
I truly prefer this pacing. I have limited time and don't wan to spend countless hours before i finish a dungeon.
It is not that frantic. I mean, the first time, sure, i can go through the place slower to learn the ropes. However, there is no point to go slow after the 100th time. In fact, we often skip bosses.
The fun was to be figuring out the mechanics, and make sure we can finish. Now since most are familiar with the fights, the fun is to figure out better tactics so I can top the dps chart.
Comments
Depends upon the type of game. Anything that is vaguely 'open' definitely allows you to set the pace.
Just look at games like Oblivion, or Fallout 3. I have one friend who beat Fallout 3 in 30 hours, I played about twice that and never beat it, and I have a friend who collected EVERY SINGLE OBJECT in the game and put it in a house. Not 'one copy of every object'... every object he could find. He scoured every building and location and ransacked them blind and stocked his house. It takes several minutes for him to open a drawer at the house.
He beat the game, but it certainly took longer than 30 hours.
Unless there is a game-imposed time limit of some sort, you can set the pace. Time limit doesn't have to be a literal counter, but things like Pac-Man obviously don't let you set the pace, because of the constant pressure, which creates a very immediate sort of time limit.
I would think most MMOs let you set the pace, and the main limitation is the other players you're with. You don't even have to stop playing, in any MMO that offers any sort of breadth... you could be sorting your inventory, crafting, socializing, discussing strategy... all things that fall under the general MMO 'game'.
My pace in an MMO can often be glacial, because I'll kill something, hide someplace safe, and do other things like the dishes or something, and quick hurry back if I hear 'Oh god I think I'm dying' noises.
Out of context - I wasn't looking down at the people, but looking down at the games for making their players play like this. The game i continued to mention was Uncharted Waters Online, which is only a few years old, not EQ or UO aged.
It's the game mechanics in a game such as that, however, that give people a role to play vs. the mechanics used in games like WoW. Hunter, Druid, Healer, etc. it doesn't matter, you're still a statistic bashing mobs all day long.
No, incorrect.
The "pace" is the fastest you can do the quests or gind mobs.
That is set by the developers when they program the game.
You cannot change that.
You can either play the game they made or not.
You can't change the "pace" which is hard coded into the game.
When I ask for a "slower paced" game, I am not asking for permission to stop playing the game.
I am asking for a game that is hard coded at a slower maximum pace.
I am asking for this because I think it would be fun, not because I want to change your fun.
I want you to continue to play a fast paced game if that's what you like, and I want developers to make fast paced games for you to play.
Now, would you NOT want me to play a slow paced game, and NOT want developers to make a slow paced game for me?
If so, why? Why would it bother you that I play a slow paced game, while you play a fast paced game?
Funny you should look down on any game at all, then.
Seriously, it's hardly roleplaying in the classic sense. Even the games with the most choices for a character, like a Bioware game or something... it's still more of a glorified Choose Your Own Adventure rather than anything like actual roleplaying and acting out a character with any depth.
Depth doesn't come from stats or special skills, it comes from... personality and the heart of a character. Which MMOs don't really have.
Characters in MMOs have the level of character depth that would be embarassing if they turned up as a background character in a 3rd rate romance novel.
You are defining pace as 'maximum pace', which seems odd, because not many definitions include an adjective and then the word itself.
There is always some crazy guild that beats the content twice as fast as any other guild, and 30 times faster than your average good guild.
Does that mean only a single guild is following the actual pace of the game?
Just because some people run a marathon and do it incredibly fast, does not mean people can not beat it at their own pace.
We're using the word 'pace' in a different way. I'm using, so far as I understand it, the word pace to mean itself. You keep talking about 'maximum pace', which... well look! That's an adjective. If I say car, I mean cars in general, if you say a blue car, you specifically are talking about blue cars.
People can set their own pace in most things. Hmm. A look at the dictionary shows I am using this definition of pace:
2.
a rate of activity, progress, growth, performance, etc.; tempo.
I'm pretty sure at some fundamental level we're just disagreeing on how we're defining pace, as your argument doesn't make any sense at all with the way I'm thinking of pace, so I'm assuming the opposite holds true.
No one said stop playing. You're trasnferring your view onto other playstyles.You have made it clear that if that game allows for a max of X experience per hour than anything a player does less than that cap is wasting time. Choosing to stop because you want to stop is wasting time. Anything that isn't max xp/hr is a waste of time.
Currently, the way most of these MMOs are designed, If I'm in a group and we want to pause now and then for bio breaks or coffee breaks, we can. The spawn rates, mob travel patterns and such are all conducive to players setting the pace as fast or slow as they want. It is player choice. You state in every thread about downtime and grouping that you want to powergame through the content with maximum efficiency. This is why you view player choice to rest or chat as a point where the players are 'not playing the game.' They may not be getting XP at that moment, but to say they are not playing the game when they are chatting or rebuffing is to say that all content outside levelling is not gameplay - to which I say that may be the case for you, but not everyone.
Most MMOs afford a good amount of choice of pace when it comes to leveling, dungeons and raids. If players want to race through it, they can. If players want to goof around, chat, rebuff, get drinks, roleplay, etc most MMOs really do give you constant 5-15 minute windows to do so due to standard mob aggro, spawn and patrol mechanics.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The part about spawn, patrol and aggro ties in with my whole point about games like Pac-Man truly setting a pace.
You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die.
MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments.
Instead of arguing semantics, or what my "motives" might be, how about this.
I would like a game with a slower pace.
Because I think it woudl be fun to play.
I played DaoC. DAoC had a slower pace than WoW.
I played WoW. WoW had a faster pace than DAoC.
I liked the pace of DAoC better than WoW.
Your tastes may differ. That's fine with me.
I cannot play WoW and pretend it has the same pace as DAoC, because it does not.
Do you think there's anything wrong with me wanting a game with a pace closer to DAoC than WoW?
Says who? Some of the game mechanics, in a game like WOW, is so complex that people are creating simulation tools, and stochastic optimization methods to figure out how to optimize dps.
That is tactical depth.
Not everything has to be fuzzy feeling & thee-and-thou to have depth. Chess has great depth and it does not even have characters.
I was talking about character and roleplaying depth. Tactical depth deals with game systems, not with the roleplaying.
If you think Chess is great roleplaying, then I'm going to give up right now, I'm obviously not going to win this discussion.
It's a game dude. Don't try and pretend like it is the equivalent of hard work and it should be hard. The generation of your father before you didn't have internet, didn't have facebook, didn't have cell phones. This is a luxury. Your father and his father are probably rolling in their graves at this post right now. You kind of over dramatized the situation don't ya think?
I have also heard horror stories of Moms and Dads leaving their 2 year old or 6 month old babies at home while they go off to some cyber cafe to play games like AION for hours on end.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Nothing wrong with that at all. Stating that you prefer a game that limits your pace is very different from stating that the ability to choose pace is not present at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Outnumbered situations and losses happen all the time in balanced PVP. When myself and a medic jump around the corner in TF2 and obliterate 5-7 opponents with just the two of us, that's an outnumbered situation.
So I get the exact same fun you get from outsmarting opponents -- I just don't have to put up with 99% of my fights being bland one-sided slaughters.
I don't even know why you mention that getting slaughtered for messing up is needed to become better.
In games with balanced PVP, if you mess up you lose. They're skill-based games. If you lack skill you lose.
In games with world PVP, if you mess up, no problem! You're traveling with a zergy mob and victory was predetermined from the onset -- you could probably AFK and beat the snot out of them still.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is a case of miscommunication then, because I thought you were saying it's wrong to want a slower paced game, since you can always play a fast paced game and take breaks.
The ability to choose your pace is present in all games. You can always stop making xp and chat in every MMORPG.
But yes, I want a slower maximum pace, something closer to DAoC.
I thought that City of Heroes was fun, but that the pace in that game was to fast, a bit to hectic.
There are lots of discussions about this on places like Raph Koster's blog, and other gaming websites all over. It's the debate between "worldy" and "gamey" games.
e.g. as a game WoW is a brilliant piece of design. As a "world", it's less of a virtual world, but still more of a virtual world than some of the more recent "WoW clones", some of which have very little feel of a virtual world at all (e.g. AoC, although the zones are very pretty and immersive in themselves, something about the way they're linked makes the game world not feel like a world, whereas Azeroth stlil feels like a world to some extent).
Now, it's true that "worldy" games do require more time investment; but really, I don't think it's so much that gamers have grown older and have less time, although that is a factor (as you point out, you can organize your time for your hobby even if you have a family, if you're sensible abou it). It's more that WoW showed there's a huge untapped market of casual gamers out there, who wouldn't be prepared to devote that much time in the first place - i.e. they're just not so much interested in the "worldy" aspect. They definitely just want a "game" - something to dip in and out of - that has just enough of a "worldy" feel to distinguish it from a single player game. Plus a built-in chatbox.
But thinking about it, actually, my line of argument here could be seen as an endorsement of the "worldy" aspect.
i.e. maybe the reason WoW remains so successful is precisely because it still retains some old-skool "worldy" feel that the more recent "clones" lack?
Your defintion about pacing in MMO's is good in theory, players are free to set whatever pacing they want. In practical application, at least in the case of WOW dungeons, players run them as quickly as possible in order to maximize their rate of return in the form of experience (not so much), gear (the primary driver) or accomplishment. (always fun to beat it the 1st time).
Doesn't matter if you are doing raids with guilds, or pugs with dungeon-finder, players generally run at maximum speed and truth is, whenever I'm in any of the dungeons we're going so fast I can't spend 10 seconds looking around (or even get my bearings), we just press forward to the next set of mobs.
I was running an dungeon a few weeks ago with my son, and I started to go up a staircase and he stopped me saying I was heading the wrong way. We never did go up that staircase, so asked him if he ever had and he said no, groups always skipped that part of the instance because there were no decent drops/dungeon objectives from taking that path.
I feel the entire game is that way (as are most modern games), its all about the min/maxing of every attitude and no time spent actually just enjoying the game world.
Heck, these folks don't even realize their missing something, which is probably the most unfortunate thing of all.
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Here's the thing about the maximum pace you can play the game.
MMORPGs are, at least in part, about playing the game as a team. I mean playing in the same group, not just being on the same server.
So the group can decide to go at the maximum pace. If that's a little to hectic for me, then I have to drop out of that group and play solo, or play the game at a pace that's a bit to hectic for me.
In a game like DaoC, the group cannot play the game at a pace that is to hectic for me, because there is built in downtime that makes you rest to regain mana, hit points, recover from rez sickness, etc.
And I find that 99% of groups will play the game at the fastest pace allowed by the game. Yes, you CAN say, well, let's all take a break to look at the scenery for a moment, but nobody does that. Sure, they take bio breaks, but I have to pee or get another drink like everyone else, and then it's back to fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, quest reward, kthxbye!....
In a game like DAoC there's enough time to take a look at the scenery, without making anyone stop gaining XP at the maximum rate. The maximum rate is already set to allow you to look at the scenery, and I like that.
You MUST play at a certain speed. Period. That is the pace, and you will keep up with it or you will die.
MMOs create a sort of window, and you can be anywhere inbetween. Even in harder areas where there are monsters, they don't spawn infinitely and in 10 second increments.
Your defintion about pacing in MMO's is good in theory, players are free to set whatever pacing they want. In practical application, at least in the case of WOW dungeons, players run them as quickly as possible in order to maximize their rate of return in the form of experience (not so much), gear (the primary driver) or accomplishment. (always fun to beat it the 1st time).
Doesn't matter if you are doing raids with guilds, or pugs with dungeon-finder, players generally run at maximum speed and truth is, whenever I'm in any of the dungeons we're going so fast I can't spend 10 seconds looking around (or even get my bearings), we just press forward to the next set of mobs.
I was running an dungeon a few weeks ago with my son, and I started to go up a staircase and he stopped me saying I was heading the wrong way. We never did go up that staircase, so asked him if he ever had and he said no, groups always skipped that part of the instance because there were no decent drops/dungeon objectives from taking that path.
I feel the entire game is that way (as are most modern games), its all about the min/maxing of every attitude and no time spent actually just enjoying the game world.
Heck, these folks don't even realize their missing something, which is probably the most unfortunate thing of all.
Those folks probably weren't missing anything they were interested in. Even if they went up the staircase and saw that portion of the dungeon, they'd probably just shrug and say, "Nice" and then forget about it.
If you're playing a 'game', then the extra world stuff is just an obstacle to achieving your objectives. If you're exploring a 'world' then the extra world stuff is the objective.
I alternate between playing a 'game' and playing in a 'world'. In 'game' mode, I get the objectives done and I'm not terribly interested in the world. In 'world' mode, I like to see what's behind the next corner or up that staircase that nobody is walking up. Some mmorpg have both options available.
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Ihmotepp, have you tried Vangaurd? If so, how do you feel about the pace of that game? The reason I ask is because, for me, it's one of the few MMOs that offers a slower pace but doesn't make me feel like I'm just completely halting gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not a fan of having downtime where there's nothing to do except wait. I like certain advancements the genre has made since the time of DAOC where you now have 5 things you could be working on and want to do, and only limited time. Instead of sitting around waiting to heal, you're ready to go again in minimal time so you can get to accomplishing your goals. I do remember DAOC and EQ and other games where you had to sit and rest for sometimes minutes between fights, and I honestly think the genre has evolved in a good way from that system.
If you were me, you'd be arrogant too.
That world aspect of MMOs why I preferred the pre-60 dungeon content in WOW over the raid content. It was so much easier to find groups that want to do things like stop and fight all the extra mobs in a room for the heck of it, sidetrack to another room just because there's a chest/resource/novelty in that section, go fishing in a water source just because it was there, or other explaratory or non-essential diversions.
The freeform nature of UO dungeons and UO team play is very conducive to variable pacing. It seems like the less scripted the experience is and the more conducive to PUGs the content is, the more players are willing to take their time through the content. In most MMOs, it doesn't seem many people really are interested in much more than the xp and the epic drop. I think that's more because of the design and emphasis of the game than anything else. For example, if you took the epics out of the raid dungeon, would people still bother to run them? If not, then unless the sole purpose of the entire dungeon was to be an obstacle to getting the purple item, the dungeon was pretty poorly design to be gin with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I did played the Vanguard beta, and I agree that the pace of that game is just about right. It is a quesiton of degree, not just really slow or really fast.
And getting that setting just right is not an easy thing to do. But yes, in Vanguard I did not feel rushed, like I did in say City of Heroes. In City of Heroes I would get in groups with a bubble healer that mitigated damage with force fields, and a classic healer that healed damage, a tank, and a DPS.
We could literally fight nonstop, without ever having to slow down to heal, regain hit points, etc. Yea, it's fun, but it's also kind of exhausting. Fight, fight, fight, fight, run to next mission, fight, fight, fight...
And YES, of course you could say, well, let's not play at such a hectic pace, let's slow down a little and ..... before you got finished, half the group is gone to do something else, which is fine since that's what they want to do, but the point is if you wanna group, you gotta keep up with the pace.
Vanguard did get the pacing right, for me at least, but had other significant flaws, which are probably an entire topic that's been covered many times.
So if you liked the pace of Vanguard, so did I, which shows there is a happy medium. The pace doesn't have to be so slow you feel the game is stopped, or so fast I feel rushed.
For a SuperHero game, the pace is perfect.
If it wasn't "fight fight fight, dont stop for rest, fight fight fight, now off to fight some more!" then it would suck as a SuperHero game.
In other words, if CoH was at Vanguard's pace, it would be awful.
But I agree entirely that Vanguard had an amazing pace in beta! I loved it
Did they up XP gains in classic? I'm currently on a free trial...again...lol...
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I truly prefer this pacing. I have limited time and don't wan to spend countless hours before i finish a dungeon.
It is not that frantic. I mean, the first time, sure, i can go through the place slower to learn the ropes. However, there is no point to go slow after the 100th time. In fact, we often skip bosses.
The fun was to be figuring out the mechanics, and make sure we can finish. Now since most are familiar with the fights, the fun is to figure out better tactics so I can top the dps chart.