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If Rift is a success in the long term is that it for variety in the AAA MMO world?
Now I would say that there is variety in MMO's but the quality in that variety is suspect as the Indie world has struggled to get their games upto a standard that can challenge the big guns. Now if Rift's early popularity continues and grows, as some of the fans seem to think it will, AAA MMO designers will probably secure great levels of funding but be stiffled by that same funding as the investers will see only one way to get good returns on their investments. I myself don't mind playing Indie MMO's and taking a hit on quality but it would be great to see an Earthrise, Wurm or A Tale In The Desert made by AAA company, also what about a modern UO or DAOC? I never played these games in their prime but have had a go of UO on a private server and played DAOC as it was a year or so ago and can see what made people love these games.
I feel this is the underlying reason in the malcontent that many posters on this forum feel, its not that modern MMO's are inherently bad there is just not enough quality competition and variety to satiate the different types of MMO players, and many unlike me refuse to drop standards to help the Indie world get on its feet which I understand wholeheartidly.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Comments
Unfortunately this rubbish already succeeded, they sold what...? 200-300k copies with very low development cost. Even if it ends up with 50k subscribers (which definently will), it already sent a signal to all investors to support such hastly-made rubbish with no innovation whatsoever. The only pro-Rift argument "it's polished!" is really the only positive thing that will come out of this.
REALITY CHECK
Any company doing well will force its competitors to step up this game. This is fundamental to capitalism and market systems.
Rift having a positive release and doing 'well' off the bat will only push the next major releeases (gw2, tor, tera) to step up their game.
And to the poster above. It's a damn shame that these days the MMO scene is so busted that the word "polished" has becoming mistakingly confused with "working".
Agree with the top half of your post, disagree with the last snippet. Plenty of MMOs have been working. WAR worked. AoC worked. Star Trek Online & Champions worked. There were few game-breaking issues and thousands played at launch. What they were lacking is polish, which is working well.
Rift is polished, not just working.
A lot of the problem with AAA releases is that they all want a garunteed success. Trying something like Wurm is just going to be a huge leap, and this carries a large risk. I would imagine that developers are just going to keep putting out tried and tested games that are crazy similar to things like WoW.
Eventually this may stop, but it will take one huge AAA success that is way off of the "established norm".
There is still room for a sandbox mmo that captures what EQ and UltimaOnline have/had... there is no good cyberpunk mmo out yet so room for that.
Right now many of the MMO's out have no endgame really, I would have to say EQ, EQ2 and LotRO have the best endgame going out of any of the current mmo's out.
I'm sorry but chasing gear, running heroics or raiding and pvp/arena are not the kind of endgame I want out of my mmo are how I want to spend my time.
There should be more social elements and many other things to do that don't involve fighting.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Wut? You mean aside from the server crashes in the RvR lakes, the aoe issues in keeps and the keep lords agroing and murdering randoms on the bottom floors in keeps? Those and the countless other major problems the game had. WAR certainly did not work. I'm not even going to bother commenting on the clusterfuck that was STO suffice to say 'it worked' at launch is being somewhat kind.
Rift may well be polished, but like the other poster I have noted people confusing 'working' with 'polished' of late.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
While I agree that the top level of the MMO market can use more variety and diversity, I also think that we're facing exciting times as MMO gamers.
The most important thing in my eyes is the breaking of the 'curse' that all top MMORPG's besides WoW have been fated to fail right from the start, a phenomenon of the last few years that has convinced a number of people that this is what must happen to all AAA MMORPG's that aren't some mystically innovative and revolutionary new MMO's.
So far Rift seems to have given a good first shot at this myth.
However, there's quite some potential, even for variety and diversity, in the titles of the next year or 2:
- GW2
- SWTOR
- The Secret World
- Firefall
- ArcheAge
- World of Darkness
- TERA
Not all of them will be equally successful, but they're all potentially high quality titles and together they offer quite a wide range in diversity.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am so ready for a cyberpunk mmo, maybe he new Deus Ex will stir interest in publishers if it does well, then they'll rush to make a cyberpunk mmo. After people buy it (even thought it sucks) maybe someone will see it's viable and make a decent one. So what we got 7 years to wait?
I'd even settle for ShadowRun.
I honestly think most of these developers would love to do something different, we all know, including devs, that the market is saturated with similiar syntaxed games. That being said, to push the genre in a different, more interesting direction, Trion needs a similiar success to fund such an effort. I bet you down the road, Trion, and others will start to make some big changes, if only to see if they work in a business sense . We will see. I have trust in Trion, as of now, they don't have a habit of feeding people bullshit.
I applaud your optimism Maverick but my pesimistic feeling is that GW2, Tera & SWTOR are just variations on a theme, I don't have faith in Funcom to produce a quality game at release, Firefall is a tactical shooter so we will see how that pans out so that leaves Archeage & World Of Darkness. Archeage looks absolutely fantastic but is stifled in the west because its Korean (I love Korean and Oriental games myself so I am looking forward to it) and WOD comes from a respected studio so really those are the only two that seem to doing something different and will release at AAA quality.
Rift for me is a game that as many here say is working at release and not polished, things like no crafting animations, no children and fluff in the world, very little variety in armours, small cities (if you can call them cities) copy paste skill sets from other games, lackluster combat animations etc... most f2p play games offer more polish and are working at release without the AAA budget Trion has had but thats just my opinion. I also agree that if thats the only thing to be lauded about Rift that its working then AAA MMO's are in a sorry state.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Well, I did say variety and diversity as meant 'in general', not only 'the variety that you like'
The list of MMO's cater to several different tastes in MMO preferences, so if someone dislikes certain MMO subgenres or gameplay features then of course they'll only have the choice of a few MMO's of that list that suits them.
That doesn't negate the fact that this list shows more variety and different kinds of top title MMORPG's than we've seen for many years, if at all in this density in the last 10-15 years.
Let's look at it objectively:
- Firefall and also one I forgot, Planetside Next, will be MMOFPS which is already pretty unique and seldom seen among MMO games.
- The Secret World will be without classes and levels, has team combo skills and has a horror/urban fantasy theme and setting that's the most unique one of MMORPG's, plus under Tornquist's (The Longest Journey, Dreamfall) has a different approach towards game design than AoC.
- SWTOR, even if you don't like it, it has full revamp of its questing mechanics, being the first that has full VO/cutscenes, branching questlines where your decisions in quest will have lasting consequences and where Class Quest content is fully unique from start to end for each class. Besides that, SWTOR will have a Crew Skills system that's a different breed from current crafting systems.
- TERA will be a true action MMORPG, with a combat system not seen before but that isn't just the standard MMO combat. Besides that, it'll introduce a player politics system.
- To dismiss the abundant amount of different gameplay that GW2 offers is a gross mistake: it goes too far to mention all the differences it'll offer, but among them there'll be a complete replacement of standard MMO quests with its Dynamic Events and Personal Story, team combo skills, a moving away from trinity team combat, 3-sided World vs World PvP with RTS elements, and multi-version dungeons
- ArcheAge will be the first AAA sandbox MMORPG in many years.
- World of Darkness we know nothing about yet, so hard to tell what variety it brings. But it has good credentials, coming from CCP.
It sounds to me like the only variety that you're interested in is the sandbox kind. Which is ok, tastes differ. But all those quality MMO's taken together show an impressive list of variety and differences from current day MMO's, even if they might not be all to your liking.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Moving this thread to the Rift forum. but please note that if this thread turns into a straight game comparison thread, it will be locked. To discuss game comparisons between Rift and others, please use the stickied thread hub to do so.
Thanks.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
Just because Rift is in the title doesn't mean that this is an exclusively Rift topic. The main basis of the thread's title is future AAA MMOs, not Rift.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
No far from it as I like variety and play many types of games and MMO's and really do not have a preference for any genre or sub genre all I'm looking for is good games. What I'm really highlighting is the fact that games from the past few years have touted as revolutionary and next gen additions to the overall MMO world and failed so I have a bit of a pesimistic outlook thats all. Until you play the aformentioned titles you only have the PR departments word for what will be in the games that you mention. I'm not a disgruntled vet as I have only being playing MMO's for 3 years or so but I sympathise with the veterens and their unhappiness at the state of the MMORPG world, I myself enjoy many of the games in this genre as I'm not looking for a specific type of MMO.
I think where I'm coming from is not just about online games its more attuned to MMORPG's really and maybe I should have been more specific DAOC, EQ, FFXI where all themeparks but played completely different and so did UO, AO & SWG Pre-Cu as sandboxes and thats what I mean about variety not the subgenres of MMOFPS, RTS etc... and the touted features of the upcoming games have to played first for people to judge their differences as Rift advertised itself as a next gen title and turned out to just be rehashing and copying the status quo with a bit of a twist. I'm not saying the don't look different on paper it jsut will we never know until they are being played by us armchair critics.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Yes thats exactly what its about so can it be moved back please?
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I think the biggest thing you should worry about is most MMOs going down in flames not that people are gonna imitate the market leader.
The suits will always gonna imitate and try to snipe the market leader. But if too many MMOs just go down in flames then the innovative devs won't be able to get investors.
Part of this though is also not going in for the hype on games that are gonna go down in flames and making sure people who invest in the market understand its not lack of demand but poor execution.
One of the things that sets Rift apart is not that its very similar to WoW in many regards even down to how you buy skill ranks. What sets Rift apart is that the game works quite well. Even huge raids in the open world perform well.
In addition Rift has taken a couple VERY big differences they are not given credit for and executed them well. Namely the rifts themselves which are a significant technical burden and the the 3 soul system which is a significant balancing burden.
IN the end the lesson should be about execution not game design. Why did AoC fail? Faeture that they promised either suclked of just didn't work. Namnely their combo system was crazy and not well executed and they had ridiculous performace and organization on their sieges.
Compare this to rift; seiges and rifts are similar. Rift is far more technically able of these two large scale features. Its not that AoC sieges were a bad idea. No they were a horribly executed feature they promised was great but was not. But it could have been great.
Ah, but you mentioned ArcheAge and WoD as examples of being different while the rest is not, however those haven't been played by us as well, even more, there's hardly anything known about WoD so how different it'll be is more guess work than any of the others.
And I disagree: I think that GW2, TSW, Firefall, TERA and the others will feel as different from eachother as a Planetside, SWG, CoH, EQ2, Lineage 2, FFXI, EQ and WoW did.
Btw, EQ and FFXI and other MMO's from that time might not have been sandboxes but they weren't themepark MMO's. WoW and a number of MMO's post-2005 can justly be described as themepark MMO's, but not the ones before.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think if Rift ends up being successful and can maintain subscriptions above levels of games like AOC and Warhammer (200 to 300k).. it will send EXACTLY the wrong message.
The only semi-successful game since WOW will be the one that is most like wow. That will further reinforce the ´clone wow´ syndrome where most games start out being designed interesting, then the closer they get to release, the more wow type stuff they start to add. (like warhammer deciding to add battlegrounds at the last minute) Rift didn´t even start out being different than WOW and ended up so similar it is sad.
Ultimately, the lesson that will be learned from investors (ie, the ones that took a 25M loss with Age of Conan) will be to make your game exactly like WOW.. don´t try anything unique.
That's only the case if Rift will be the most successful long-term or the only one that'll be successful of all the MMORPG's that will be released this upcoming year, which remains to be seen.
Besides, there are other lessons learnt and messages sent if Rift is successful for a longer period of time, namely:
- other MMORPG's can be very successful in the western market over a longer sustained period of time.
- it isn't the case that the whole MMO playerbase either likes WoW or craves for non-themepark and sandbox type MMO's.
- the themepark model isn't just enjoyed by WoW gamers, but a considerable part of the MMO playerbase can enjoy that kind of gameplay.
- launching a polished, relatively bugfree product with the promised feature list present and fully functional ingame helps a lot making MMO gamers enjoy a new MMORPG and will keep needless outcries of indignation or betrayal to a minimum in contrast to some former MMO launches.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You lose all credibility with this statement but you did state is was your opinion which was thoughtful. Take a look at the home page of this website. Do you see even a single F2P game in the most anticipated section? No you dont because they have no credibilty they are just pure money grabs. And I have yet to see a single one that isnt totally annoying in some way.
I think the opposite is going to happen. It's not that a AAA "Theme Park" mmorpg can be successful, it's that a AAA MMORPG can be successful. Yes, developers will try to capitalize on what is already working. At the same time, they'll do something new as well, whether that something new is on the backside server architecture, or on the front side, in the game mechanics and play styles. It makes the entire genre look good to investors and the larger game developers.
Probably what they'll work on next is the barrier to entry, like what Cryptic tried to do, but with games that are closer to what Rift or Perpetuum did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The fact is if Rift is successful then yes that will show em what they want, which is that the large majorty of mmo gamers enjoy the type of mmo it is with the exception of a small few jaded gamers that are always wanting something new and life changing. MMO companies cater to the masses and the few on this and other boards always complaining about make up far to small a portion for them to care about. It is sad that that fact holds back inovation in the gender, but i can still hold my head high and say ....yeah im playing Rift and enjoying the hell out of it.
jad·ed/?j?did/
Adjective: Tired, bored, or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something
You are not going to get investors to pony up the at least the 75-150 million dollars that it cost to make a AAA MMO to experiment on something that has either proven to have failed before or has no track record at all why risk the large amount of money on the unknown. And SWTOR is setting the bar on AAA MMO's at 200-300 million if you believe some of the reports.
AAA MMO's are designed to target the widest possible audience not niche sub markets. Sandbox style is a niche market many do not want to be dropped in a open world. The most successful sandbox is Eve while successful it is around 300k subs not 12 million. You want sandbox, full open pvp, evolutionary you are going to have to go with indie developers and the trade off is sub par graphics, unfinished product at launch, buggy, unbalanced ect ect.
The game play many of you listed wanting in this thread already exist in released indie games but they are not polished, finished, or have the budget to crank out content nor fix things fast. There are many games listed on this sight that fit what many of you all claim you want in MMO's how about going to play some of them and support this style of game play rather than just post about it wanting it?
Rift was designed and advertised to be a polished MMO targeting the widest possible crowd trying to "improve" on existing concepts. That was the entire premise of this game they never intended to re-event the wheel.
I don't think that only will depend on Rift.
Several games will release pretty soon as well. Games like GW2, TOR, TSW, TERA and possibly WoDO.
Those games will be compared. If GW2 for one thing would be the big winner of that competition (or WoDO for that matter) it will give the devs different signals than if Rift will be the big one.
And it is frankly too early to say which game that will come out heads on.'
And even if it will be Rift will it at least tell the devs once and for all that any huge game will need solid programming.
Indie games like the ones you mentioned have great ideas but for a game to really sell it needs at least one great programmer and few indie studios have that (Zombie labs have to mention one). That is the real reason indie games rarely get that popular. MMOs are a lot harder to code than a regular single player game.
2011 and 2012 will give out new signals to the future devs but exactly that those are is hard to guesss. Maybe TOR wins and the signal will be that you need a gigantic budget and a famous IP? Maybe WoDO finally becomes the first sandbox to get a million players? Maybe GW2 proves that you can change the model and kill of the holy triad? Tera might prove that MMO combat needs more action?
Or something completely different, maybe they all fail and the genre live or die with Blizzard.
It will be interesting to find this out, but it will take 2 years.
You don't need to. Old MMOs usually had MORE features than modern MMOs, yet they had worse tech, smaller dev teams, and much smaller budgets... I think we just need companies that know how to properly make a game. Dark Age of Camelot was made by 30 people over the course of 3 years or so.
Yes, inflation and the need for better polish will increase costs, but not to the extent that you need 150 million dollars for a solid game. Hell, modern companies probably spend that money on advertising these days.
And yes, if Rift is a long term success, I think creativity is done in MMOs. Same if SWTOR is a success.