AAA MMO's are designed to target the widest possible audience not niche sub markets. Sandbox style is a niche market many do not want to be dropped in a open world. The most successful sandbox is Eve while successful it is around 300k subs not 12 million. You want sandbox, full open pvp, evolutionary you are going to have to go with indie developers and the trade off is sub par graphics, unfinished product at launch, buggy, unbalanced ect ect.
Maybe. But CCP is merged with White wolf and "World of darkness online" have a pretty interesting staff.
And Bethesda have had a MMO sub department for over 3 years headed by one of the founders from Mythic...
The real problem with sandbox MMOs is that most devs (and people here for that matter) are rather conservative and want something really close to UO (or possible pre-cu SWG). Both CCP and Bethesda are actually competent enough to put their own spin on things and create their own game and that might be what turn things around.
But the fans might say what they want, FFA PvP games with full looting and UO similar mechanics will never become really big. Sandbox games needs to evolve if they want to sell more games.
And if anyone truly can do that it is Bethesda. Well, or Rockstar, I hope they make a MMO as well.
You don't need to. Old MMOs usually had MORE features than modern MMOs, yet they had worse tech, smaller dev teams, and much smaller budgets... I think we just need companies that know how to properly make a game. Dark Age of Camelot was made by 30 people over the course of 3 years or so.
Yes, inflation and the need for better polish will increase costs, but not to the extent that you need 150 million dollars for a solid game. Hell, modern companies probably spend that money on advertising these days.
And yes, if Rift is a long term success, I think creativity is done in MMOs. Same if SWTOR is a success.
And Guildwars by even fewer people... But modern graphics cost money. Arenanet and Mythic both had the luck to have some really talented people as well.
Creativity will only be dome for if GW2, WodO and similar games fail while Rift becomes the next Wow. We only need a single creative game that gets a few million players (more for GW2, at least 5M+ for it) to prove the point.
I really don't know but would be willing to bet that if Rift is a long term success then yes the AAA funded MMO will continue down the path of trying to out WOW. Though if SWTOR is also a long term success then maybe we might get some trying a sci-fy twist on the idea. If GW2 is a long term success we might see more erosion of the $15 a month payment model.
But whats really going to make or break everything is Blizzards new MMO if thats a long term success and it's nothing like WOW then everythings all up in the air again.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
You don't need to. Old MMOs usually had MORE features than modern MMOs, yet they had worse tech, smaller dev teams, and much smaller budgets... I think we just need companies that know how to properly make a game. Dark Age of Camelot was made by 30 people over the course of 3 years or so.
Yes, inflation and the need for better polish will increase costs, but not to the extent that you need 150 million dollars for a solid game. Hell, modern companies probably spend that money on advertising these days.
And yes, if Rift is a long term success, I think creativity is done in MMOs. Same if SWTOR is a success.
And Guildwars by even fewer people... But modern graphics cost money. Arenanet and Mythic both had the luck to have some really talented people as well.
Creativity will only be dome for if GW2, WodO and similar games fail while Rift becomes the next Wow. We only need a single creative game that gets a few million players (more for GW2, at least 5M+ for it) to prove the point.
I hardly think WODO should be mentioned, especially as an example of creativity, when you could describe all that you actually know about the game in less than 10 words. And I fail to see how GW2 is really any more creative than Rift... yeah, they're getting rid of the 'holy trinity'... Whereas Rift has ripped the trinity apart with it's open class system. GW2 has dynamic events... as does Rift.
The fact is, whether people want to see it or not, the success of Rift is a good thing for everyone. Investors need to see that games other than WoW can succeed. They need to see that polish pays off, and that you need to deliver on all of your promises. They need to see that Rift, by learning from the mistakes of the mmo releases of the past few years, has been able to succeed. They then can follow suit and build upon what Rift was able to do.
AAA MMO's are designed to target the widest possible audience not niche sub markets. Sandbox style is a niche market many do not want to be dropped in a open world. The most successful sandbox is Eve while successful it is around 300k subs not 12 million. You want sandbox, full open pvp, evolutionary you are going to have to go with indie developers and the trade off is sub par graphics, unfinished product at launch, buggy, unbalanced ect ect.
Maybe. But CCP is merged with White wolf and "World of darkness online" have a pretty interesting staff.
And Bethesda have had a MMO sub department for over 3 years headed by one of the founders from Mythic...
The real problem with sandbox MMOs is that most devs (and people here for that matter) are rather conservative and want something really close to UO (or possible pre-cu SWG). Both CCP and Bethesda are actually competent enough to put their own spin on things and create their own game and that might be what turn things around.
But the fans might say what they want, FFA PvP games with full looting and UO similar mechanics will never become really big. Sandbox games needs to evolve if they want to sell more games.
And if anyone truly can do that it is Bethesda. Well, or Rockstar, I hope they make a MMO as well.
CCP gave us a graphically horrible space-game that is little more than a glorified Lemonade Stand. (anyone remember that one? lol!) That's not to say that WODO can't be good, but they've done very little to demonstrate anything that can convince me either way.
To blame Rift's success on stemming the flow of invtovation in the MMO business is a bit much. We get it, you don't dig the game, but this isn't very constructive. A better target would be the giant publishing companies who are paided not to take risks, they marginalize risk for the sake of profit, it's the basis of their entire existence. Regardless, there wasn't much innovation prior to Rift, at this point you could question if "innovation" is just "preference." Or we could pare it down to the most base elements and complain all games requiring a mouse and keyboard are passé.
I don't think Rift has anything to do with stifling variety in MMO's, but it sure seems to cause a bunch of hub-bub. There are hundreds of games I do not enjoy, I pretty much ignore them and keep on keeping on. Although I am constructing a theory EQII shot JFK to cast it in bad light, so not everyone is perfect.
RIft is small potatoes. Seriously, it's success is a symptom of people bored with their current MMOs. It took YEARS for a lot of people to get that way, so the newbies to the goliath worlds like WOW or EQ2 aren't going to be as easily swayed as the jaded (I believe we all know the definition of that now) WOW alumni. Blizzard has the upperhand with the amount of content they have to keep new players busy and their minds off of other MMOs.
Let's see...Telara, a generic hardly anyone has heard of..or the Star Wars Universe, which comes with millions of built-in fans who will probably be stepping into their first MMO as soon as it's released...you have to be extremely naive to think RIft could beat out that kind of competition. Bioware would have had to really screw up big time for it to be a complete failure out of the gate.
I'm just waiting for Blizzard to announce their new MMO...and at that point, Rift really doesnt matter anymore.
You don't need to. Old MMOs usually had MORE features than modern MMOs, yet they had worse tech, smaller dev teams, and much smaller budgets... I think we just need companies that know how to properly make a game. Dark Age of Camelot was made by 30 people over the course of 3 years or so.
Yes, inflation and the need for better polish will increase costs, but not to the extent that you need 150 million dollars for a solid game. Hell, modern companies probably spend that money on advertising these days.
And yes, if Rift is a long term success, I think creativity is done in MMOs. Same if SWTOR is a success.
And Guildwars by even fewer people... But modern graphics cost money. Arenanet and Mythic both had the luck to have some really talented people as well.
Creativity will only be dome for if GW2, WodO and similar games fail while Rift becomes the next Wow. We only need a single creative game that gets a few million players (more for GW2, at least 5M+ for it) to prove the point.
I'm not sure that's true. How many WoW clones had to fail before developers stopped trying to copy WoW? Oh wait...
If anything, they'd just start copying Guild Wars. I think creativity is truly dead in this genre. It's been dead for a good 5 years. The only companies doing amazing things are indie companies (Aventurine's Darkfall). 6 years since WoW's release and the only innovation we've had is... public quests.
Unfortunately this rubbish already succeeded, they sold what...? 200-300k copies with very low development cost. Even if it ends up with 50k subscribers (which definently will), it already sent a signal to all investors to support such hastly-made rubbish with no innovation whatsoever. The only pro-Rift argument "it's polished!" is really the only positive thing that will come out of this.
Rift is a good game,not a revolution to the gender but a very good game.
I don´t know what you expected,but i don´t think there is a better Mmo out there at the moment.
And it didn´t have a very low development cost as you state... it costed 50 million......
Have you even played it ?
Besides that... I understand what u mean by this thread but remember something...a game is suscessfull when people LIKE it and PLAY it.
Are you asking for a super innovative indie AAA game as a mmo? Well probably that will not even suscess at all.... it would appeal probably just to a minority and therefore no company will invest millions for a few.
I lke mmos and i love innovatives game...i play mmos and i do also play creative games that are not mmos.... do you really think "word of Goo" mmo would even work? I think mmo have its limits as gender...like a shooter does...or a driving game...
More good games are coming out anyway, Guild wars 2 and SWTOR are the future... If you want something more...just close your eyes...and dream on
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf. Some people like Folgers, some like Maxwell House, some think they both suck and buy thier coffee from Starbucks. But its just coffee anyway you look at it. Most of us that drink coffee know one tastes better to us than the other, but when it comes to buying it usually its whichever brand is cheapest or on sale that day. As long as we have our coffee fix thats really all that matters most days anymore. So whats one more brand on the market? Either you like it or you dont, maybe your willing to try the new brand, maybe your gonna stick with what ya know. Seriously does it matter that much if 20 million people like coffee, and 6 companies put thier brand on the shelf??
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Now I would say that there is variety in MMO's but the quality in that variety is suspect as the Indie world has struggled to get their games upto a standard that can challenge the big guns. Now if Rift's early popularity continues and grows, as some of the fans seem to think it will, AAA MMO designers will probably secure great levels of funding but be stiffled by that same funding as the investers will see only one way to get good returns on their investments. I myself don't mind playing Indie MMO's and taking a hit on quality but it would be great to see an Earthrise, Wurm or A Tale In The Desert made by AAA company, also what about a modern UO or DAOC? I never played these games in their prime but have had a go of UO on a private server and played DAOC as it was a year or so ago and can see what made people love these games.
I feel this is the underlying reason in the malcontent that many posters on this forum feel, its not that modern MMO's are inherently bad there is just not enough quality competition and variety to satiate the different types of MMO players, and many unlike me refuse to drop standards to help the Indie world get on its feet which I understand wholeheartidly.
Cal.
Again someone who don't realy know what indie companys are and represent.
Sure they want millions of players and earn billions but most indie companys there goal is to make game they want and dreamed about for years to realise, fans of there own game and money is not there main goal.
Indie companys make games that please themselfs and the fans and dont realy care if it is what mass wants and they sure dont wanne be same as the so called AAA titles you name it quality and what they represent.
I say most are utterly crap and many INDIE games are the ones that should earn AAA title and be respected for what they are many small indie games are QUALITY.
Its casual gameplay the grafhics and ezmode with alot fluff and all instanced that attrackes most and if its polished and these days similar to WoW millions wanne play.
If its deep complex gameplay, harsh pvp, casual unfriendly(no hold hands) and grafhics are not that importend its ignored and mostly hated by those same millions who play themparks and trash down untill its destroyed by all the trolls and haters.
These days its right agains left or other way around hehe and one side is losing becouse other side wanne conquer all and dont aloud any other form to see day of light, they say fight agains freedom fight agains democrecy hehe.
So Themeparks 90%market pie and sandbox 10% left of the pie and losing:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
This only applies if you're narrowminded enough to view Rift as simply another clone.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You can call yourself the CORE MMO AUDIENCE all you want, doesn't mean your the core or your important at all. Your just one of the ones willing to cry the loudest when your not getting what you think you deserve. Me, I just go out and get what I want, I dont waste my time trying to let everyone know I dont have it yet.
Rift is just another MMO on the market, some will like, some will play. Its a good game for what it is and it does what it is designed to do, collect money and keep players occupied. It even makes most of the people who play it happy while they do those other two things. So its a success, period.
Time for you people to just accept the basic fact of it and move on to the next MMO launch that requires some pre-reviews, predictions, and doomsaying.
I was playing computer games back when they had to be loaded off a tape drive, been playing online games before the internet even existed, RPGs since the first PnP hit the shelf, and was a part of the first MMO to every come out. If I'm not considered a part of the veteran MMORPG player crowd then I dont know what is. So please, next time try and speak for yourself instead of trying to include my in your opinion as if I share it with you.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
These days its right agains left or other way around hehe and one side is losing becouse other side wanne conquer all and dont aloud any other form to see day of light, they say fight agains freedom fight agains democrecy hehe.
So Themeparks 90%market pie and sandbox 10% left of the pie and losing:(
Let me enlighten you: some MMO gamers don't treat games as if 1 subgenre is a hindoeist religion and another subgenre is a christian or muslim faith and they have to choose their religion/subgenre, one excluding the other.
Some MMO gamers like MMORPG's in general, sometimes playing themepark MMO's, sometimes sandbox MMO's and another time an entirely different kind of MMO like a MMOFPS or a Vindictus or GW or EQ.
Besides that, what is this about 'freedom fight' and themepark dominating the complete MMO market? That argument is only valid if you consider all non-sandbox MMO's as 'themepark MMO's' and even then that argument is questionable.
Because let's see for example what games are ahead:
- Firefall: MMOFPS game
- Planetside Next: MMOFPS game
- TSW: no classes, no levels
- GW2: definitely not a WoW-style themepark MMO
- ArcheAge: AAA sandbox hybrid MMO
- WoD: AAA sandbox MMO (most likely)
That's quite a number of MMO's that fall outside the WoW-type themepark model, most of them aren't even themepark MMORPG's at all.
I agree though, that if your taste in MMO's only falls into the pure sandbox MMORPG category, then yes, it won't matter what type those other MMO's are since they'll all have no value to you.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not sure that's true. How many WoW clones had to fail before developers stopped trying to copy WoW? Oh wait...
If anything, they'd just start copying Guild Wars. I think creativity is truly dead in this genre. It's been dead for a good 5 years. The only companies doing amazing things are indie companies (Aventurine's Darkfall). 6 years since WoW's release and the only innovation we've had is... public quests.
Creativity is not dead, it is not just that common.
And the indie companies aften steal stuff as well, not just from the same games as the business leaders. There are more than one indie companie that tried to make a new UO. Nothing really wrong with that of course, but I am not so sure I would call copying UO instead or Meridian 59 and EQ more innovative. Or Eve for that matter.
I don't agree that only indie companies make innovations. Arenanet to mention one actually do a lot of things differently. That does not mean you have to like the features, just that they either are new or used in a very different way. Arenanet and a few other companies still are making games for and by gamers, and while that is true for indie developers as well (ANET started out like that in '99, time flies) they rarely have both the money and the experience you need to code a polished game.
The indie company that interest me most right now is actually Zombie labs. They have actually some ace programmers as well as lot of creativity, With that experienced crew they might actually make a MMO with enough polish to go toe to toe with the AAA bunch.
I think Rift will have its place as the alternative as a WoW clone. For people who dont want to play WoW for whatever reason. If anyone else brings another TAB 123 mob dead mmo out like WoW or Rift most people wont play it I think.
So NOW I HOPE we will start to get better more innovative MMO games.
I think Rift will have its place as the alternative as a WoW clone. For people who dont want to play WoW for whatever reason. If anyone else brings another TAB 123 mob dead mmo out like WoW or Rift most people wont play it I think.
So NOW I HOPE we will start to get better more innovative MMO games.
PS I hate Rift and WoW.
If you hate Rift & WoW ....you hate mmos.... because they are THE BEST mmos out there.
PD: Btw TAB 1,2,3 in Rift? I play a Mage and i can Dps...Crowd Control and heal while transforming into a Lich Form...
and let me tell you.... i need waaaaaaaay more than 3 keys..........
Rift is a nail in the coffin of the idea that you can do anything other than WoW and be a real success. Many MMO's have launched with a differant take like and WAR, AoC which do not divert from the formula too much but aimed high but were released to soon. A handful like FE and DA have tried to do something differant.
SWTOR is funnily enough a AAA attempt at something differant, I don't hold out to much hope for it, but if it does extremely well we may see a new template for MMO's to be built on.
Try to think of films here to understand how MMO's are made. If the only films released were Westerns and someone made a great Horror film, then Horror becomes a new genre. But you will then only get Western and Horror films made, you won't get a flowering of diversity. Thats all that can happen in MMO's, we only have the WoW template now, if we get another we will have two templates, we won't see a rush to try differant gameplay styles.
I think Rift will have its place as the alternative as a WoW clone. For people who dont want to play WoW for whatever reason. If anyone else brings another TAB 123 mob dead mmo out like WoW or Rift most people wont play it I think.
So NOW I HOPE we will start to get better more innovative MMO games.
PS I hate Rift and WoW.
If you hate Rift & WoW ....you hate mmos.... because they are THE BEST mmos out there.
That's a bit biased. I think you're just trolling.
If you like Rift and WoW, you hate MMOs, because those are some of the most unoriginal and boring MMOs out there, and they have so much instancing they're hardly MMOs.
See? I can do it too, but at least what I said is accurate.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
Rift is a nail in the coffin of the idea that you can do anything other than WoW and be a real success. Many MMO's have launched with a differant take like and WAR, AoC which do not divert from the formula too much but aimed high but were released to soon. A handful like FE and DA have tried to do something differant.
SWTOR is funnily enough a AAA attempt at something differant, I don't hold out to much hope for it, but if it does extremely well we may see a new template for MMO's to be built on.
Try to think of films here to understand how MMO's are made. If the only films released were Westerns and someone made a great Horror film, then Horror becomes a new genre. But you will then only get Western and Horror films made, you won't get a flowering of diversity. Thats all that can happen in MMO's, we only have the WoW template now, if we get another we will have two templates, we won't see a rush to try differant gameplay styles.
Rift is a nail in the coffin of those who believe that you can release an unfinished, buggy mess and be a real success. If a "WoW clone" that for some people all it has is "polish" can be succesful, imagine what an innovating but polished game would accomplish.
I think it's safe to say, by the way, that War and AoC were more innovative than whatever was released up to that time (AoC combat etc, War public quests etc.), and were rewarded with very high initial sales. Definitely higher than Rift, otherwise I'm sure Trion would have announced the numbers. They didn't get to retain those numbers though, because of ... the reasons we all know by now.
So lets wait and see how things will progress for Rift. If it succeeds where others failed, maybe developers will start caring about polished and feature complete games as a priority and marketing gimmicks masked as innovation as secondary.
Rift is a nail in the coffin of the idea that you can do anything other than WoW and be a real success. Many MMO's have launched with a differant take like and WAR, AoC which do not divert from the formula too much but aimed high but were released to soon. A handful like FE and DA have tried to do something differant.
SWTOR is funnily enough a AAA attempt at something differant, I don't hold out to much hope for it, but if it does extremely well we may see a new template for MMO's to be built on.
Try to think of films here to understand how MMO's are made. If the only films released were Westerns and someone made a great Horror film, then Horror becomes a new genre. But you will then only get Western and Horror films made, you won't get a flowering of diversity. Thats all that can happen in MMO's, we only have the WoW template now, if we get another we will have two templates, we won't see a rush to try differant gameplay styles.
Umm, i tought SWOTR was pretty much WoW in Star Wars skin? I havent followed it too much tough and i dont care for the game. But yea so far from what i understand its pretty much a WoW clone with voice acting for everything etc.
Didnt they even say themself that it was pretty much a WoW clone? or was that some other game?
I believe they said that WoW influenced the genre and therefore their own designs. Influence does not necessarily means copy. And I hope people won't have a fit if the games share similarities in UI design.
My fear is that SW:TOR will be a Mass Effect in star wars single player experience masked as mutliplayer. That dosn't mean that it'll be a bad game, quite the contrary, Mass Effect was awesome the first time you played it. Is it enough for an MMO? We'll see soon enough.
Comments
Maybe. But CCP is merged with White wolf and "World of darkness online" have a pretty interesting staff.
And Bethesda have had a MMO sub department for over 3 years headed by one of the founders from Mythic...
The real problem with sandbox MMOs is that most devs (and people here for that matter) are rather conservative and want something really close to UO (or possible pre-cu SWG). Both CCP and Bethesda are actually competent enough to put their own spin on things and create their own game and that might be what turn things around.
But the fans might say what they want, FFA PvP games with full looting and UO similar mechanics will never become really big. Sandbox games needs to evolve if they want to sell more games.
And if anyone truly can do that it is Bethesda. Well, or Rockstar, I hope they make a MMO as well.
And Guildwars by even fewer people... But modern graphics cost money. Arenanet and Mythic both had the luck to have some really talented people as well.
Creativity will only be dome for if GW2, WodO and similar games fail while Rift becomes the next Wow. We only need a single creative game that gets a few million players (more for GW2, at least 5M+ for it) to prove the point.
I really don't know but would be willing to bet that if Rift is a long term success then yes the AAA funded MMO will continue down the path of trying to out WOW. Though if SWTOR is also a long term success then maybe we might get some trying a sci-fy twist on the idea. If GW2 is a long term success we might see more erosion of the $15 a month payment model.
But whats really going to make or break everything is Blizzards new MMO if thats a long term success and it's nothing like WOW then everythings all up in the air again.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
I hardly think WODO should be mentioned, especially as an example of creativity, when you could describe all that you actually know about the game in less than 10 words. And I fail to see how GW2 is really any more creative than Rift... yeah, they're getting rid of the 'holy trinity'... Whereas Rift has ripped the trinity apart with it's open class system. GW2 has dynamic events... as does Rift.
The fact is, whether people want to see it or not, the success of Rift is a good thing for everyone. Investors need to see that games other than WoW can succeed. They need to see that polish pays off, and that you need to deliver on all of your promises. They need to see that Rift, by learning from the mistakes of the mmo releases of the past few years, has been able to succeed. They then can follow suit and build upon what Rift was able to do.
CCP gave us a graphically horrible space-game that is little more than a glorified Lemonade Stand. (anyone remember that one? lol!) That's not to say that WODO can't be good, but they've done very little to demonstrate anything that can convince me either way.
To blame Rift's success on stemming the flow of invtovation in the MMO business is a bit much. We get it, you don't dig the game, but this isn't very constructive. A better target would be the giant publishing companies who are paided not to take risks, they marginalize risk for the sake of profit, it's the basis of their entire existence. Regardless, there wasn't much innovation prior to Rift, at this point you could question if "innovation" is just "preference." Or we could pare it down to the most base elements and complain all games requiring a mouse and keyboard are passé.
I don't think Rift has anything to do with stifling variety in MMO's, but it sure seems to cause a bunch of hub-bub. There are hundreds of games I do not enjoy, I pretty much ignore them and keep on keeping on. Although I am constructing a theory EQII shot JFK to cast it in bad light, so not everyone is perfect.
RIft is small potatoes. Seriously, it's success is a symptom of people bored with their current MMOs. It took YEARS for a lot of people to get that way, so the newbies to the goliath worlds like WOW or EQ2 aren't going to be as easily swayed as the jaded (I believe we all know the definition of that now) WOW alumni. Blizzard has the upperhand with the amount of content they have to keep new players busy and their minds off of other MMOs.
Let's see...Telara, a generic hardly anyone has heard of..or the Star Wars Universe, which comes with millions of built-in fans who will probably be stepping into their first MMO as soon as it's released...you have to be extremely naive to think RIft could beat out that kind of competition. Bioware would have had to really screw up big time for it to be a complete failure out of the gate.
I'm just waiting for Blizzard to announce their new MMO...and at that point, Rift really doesnt matter anymore.
I'm not sure that's true. How many WoW clones had to fail before developers stopped trying to copy WoW? Oh wait...
If anything, they'd just start copying Guild Wars. I think creativity is truly dead in this genre. It's been dead for a good 5 years. The only companies doing amazing things are indie companies (Aventurine's Darkfall). 6 years since WoW's release and the only innovation we've had is... public quests.
Rift is a good game,not a revolution to the gender but a very good game.
I don´t know what you expected,but i don´t think there is a better Mmo out there at the moment.
And it didn´t have a very low development cost as you state... it costed 50 million......
Have you even played it ?
Besides that... I understand what u mean by this thread but remember something...a game is suscessfull when people LIKE it and PLAY it.
Are you asking for a super innovative indie AAA game as a mmo? Well probably that will not even suscess at all.... it would appeal probably just to a minority and therefore no company will invest millions for a few.
I lke mmos and i love innovatives game...i play mmos and i do also play creative games that are not mmos.... do you really think "word of Goo" mmo would even work? I think mmo have its limits as gender...like a shooter does...or a driving game...
More good games are coming out anyway, Guild wars 2 and SWTOR are the future... If you want something more...just close your eyes...and dream on
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf. Some people like Folgers, some like Maxwell House, some think they both suck and buy thier coffee from Starbucks. But its just coffee anyway you look at it. Most of us that drink coffee know one tastes better to us than the other, but when it comes to buying it usually its whichever brand is cheapest or on sale that day. As long as we have our coffee fix thats really all that matters most days anymore. So whats one more brand on the market? Either you like it or you dont, maybe your willing to try the new brand, maybe your gonna stick with what ya know. Seriously does it matter that much if 20 million people like coffee, and 6 companies put thier brand on the shelf??
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Again someone who don't realy know what indie companys are and represent.
Sure they want millions of players and earn billions but most indie companys there goal is to make game they want and dreamed about for years to realise, fans of there own game and money is not there main goal.
Indie companys make games that please themselfs and the fans and dont realy care if it is what mass wants and they sure dont wanne be same as the so called AAA titles you name it quality and what they represent.
I say most are utterly crap and many INDIE games are the ones that should earn AAA title and be respected for what they are many small indie games are QUALITY.
Its casual gameplay the grafhics and ezmode with alot fluff and all instanced that attrackes most and if its polished and these days similar to WoW millions wanne play.
If its deep complex gameplay, harsh pvp, casual unfriendly(no hold hands) and grafhics are not that importend its ignored and mostly hated by those same millions who play themparks and trash down untill its destroyed by all the trolls and haters.
These days its right agains left or other way around hehe and one side is losing becouse other side wanne conquer all and dont aloud any other form to see day of light, they say fight agains freedom fight agains democrecy hehe.
So Themeparks 90%market pie and sandbox 10% left of the pie and losing:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
This only applies if you're narrowminded enough to view Rift as simply another clone.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You can call yourself the CORE MMO AUDIENCE all you want, doesn't mean your the core or your important at all. Your just one of the ones willing to cry the loudest when your not getting what you think you deserve. Me, I just go out and get what I want, I dont waste my time trying to let everyone know I dont have it yet.
Rift is just another MMO on the market, some will like, some will play. Its a good game for what it is and it does what it is designed to do, collect money and keep players occupied. It even makes most of the people who play it happy while they do those other two things. So its a success, period.
Time for you people to just accept the basic fact of it and move on to the next MMO launch that requires some pre-reviews, predictions, and doomsaying.
I was playing computer games back when they had to be loaded off a tape drive, been playing online games before the internet even existed, RPGs since the first PnP hit the shelf, and was a part of the first MMO to every come out. If I'm not considered a part of the veteran MMORPG player crowd then I dont know what is. So please, next time try and speak for yourself instead of trying to include my in your opinion as if I share it with you.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Let me enlighten you: some MMO gamers don't treat games as if 1 subgenre is a hindoeist religion and another subgenre is a christian or muslim faith and they have to choose their religion/subgenre, one excluding the other.
Some MMO gamers like MMORPG's in general, sometimes playing themepark MMO's, sometimes sandbox MMO's and another time an entirely different kind of MMO like a MMOFPS or a Vindictus or GW or EQ.
Besides that, what is this about 'freedom fight' and themepark dominating the complete MMO market? That argument is only valid if you consider all non-sandbox MMO's as 'themepark MMO's' and even then that argument is questionable.
Because let's see for example what games are ahead:
- Firefall: MMOFPS game
- Planetside Next: MMOFPS game
- TSW: no classes, no levels
- GW2: definitely not a WoW-style themepark MMO
- ArcheAge: AAA sandbox hybrid MMO
- WoD: AAA sandbox MMO (most likely)
That's quite a number of MMO's that fall outside the WoW-type themepark model, most of them aren't even themepark MMORPG's at all.
I agree though, that if your taste in MMO's only falls into the pure sandbox MMORPG category, then yes, it won't matter what type those other MMO's are since they'll all have no value to you.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Creativity is not dead, it is not just that common.
And the indie companies aften steal stuff as well, not just from the same games as the business leaders. There are more than one indie companie that tried to make a new UO. Nothing really wrong with that of course, but I am not so sure I would call copying UO instead or Meridian 59 and EQ more innovative. Or Eve for that matter.
I don't agree that only indie companies make innovations. Arenanet to mention one actually do a lot of things differently. That does not mean you have to like the features, just that they either are new or used in a very different way. Arenanet and a few other companies still are making games for and by gamers, and while that is true for indie developers as well (ANET started out like that in '99, time flies) they rarely have both the money and the experience you need to code a polished game.
The indie company that interest me most right now is actually Zombie labs. They have actually some ace programmers as well as lot of creativity, With that experienced crew they might actually make a MMO with enough polish to go toe to toe with the AAA bunch.
Contrary to popular belief, success breeds innovation.
Failure breeds more 'safe choices' and less investments.
e.g. If your MMO is releasing after a string of successful MMOs you'd better bring something unique or the market is going to ignore you.
Competitive healthy market = innovation
Basic capitalism at work.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I think Rift will have its place as the alternative as a WoW clone. For people who dont want to play WoW for whatever reason. If anyone else brings another TAB 123 mob dead mmo out like WoW or Rift most people wont play it I think.
So NOW I HOPE we will start to get better more innovative MMO games.
PS I hate Rift and WoW.
If you hate Rift & WoW ....you hate mmos.... because they are THE BEST mmos out there.
PD: Btw TAB 1,2,3 in Rift? I play a Mage and i can Dps...Crowd Control and heal while transforming into a Lich Form...
and let me tell you.... i need waaaaaaaay more than 3 keys..........
Rift is a nail in the coffin of the idea that you can do anything other than WoW and be a real success. Many MMO's have launched with a differant take like and WAR, AoC which do not divert from the formula too much but aimed high but were released to soon. A handful like FE and DA have tried to do something differant.
SWTOR is funnily enough a AAA attempt at something differant, I don't hold out to much hope for it, but if it does extremely well we may see a new template for MMO's to be built on.
Try to think of films here to understand how MMO's are made. If the only films released were Westerns and someone made a great Horror film, then Horror becomes a new genre. But you will then only get Western and Horror films made, you won't get a flowering of diversity. Thats all that can happen in MMO's, we only have the WoW template now, if we get another we will have two templates, we won't see a rush to try differant gameplay styles.
That's a bit biased. I think you're just trolling.
If you like Rift and WoW, you hate MMOs, because those are some of the most unoriginal and boring MMOs out there, and they have so much instancing they're hardly MMOs.
See? I can do it too, but at least what I said is accurate.
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
Rift is a nail in the coffin of those who believe that you can release an unfinished, buggy mess and be a real success. If a "WoW clone" that for some people all it has is "polish" can be succesful, imagine what an innovating but polished game would accomplish.
I think it's safe to say, by the way, that War and AoC were more innovative than whatever was released up to that time (AoC combat etc, War public quests etc.), and were rewarded with very high initial sales. Definitely higher than Rift, otherwise I'm sure Trion would have announced the numbers. They didn't get to retain those numbers though, because of ... the reasons we all know by now.
So lets wait and see how things will progress for Rift. If it succeeds where others failed, maybe developers will start caring about polished and feature complete games as a priority and marketing gimmicks masked as innovation as secondary.
Umm, i tought SWOTR was pretty much WoW in Star Wars skin? I havent followed it too much tough and i dont care for the game. But yea so far from what i understand its pretty much a WoW clone with voice acting for everything etc.
Didnt they even say themself that it was pretty much a WoW clone? or was that some other game?
Currently Playing Path of Exile
I believe they said that WoW influenced the genre and therefore their own designs. Influence does not necessarily means copy. And I hope people won't have a fit if the games share similarities in UI design.
My fear is that SW:TOR will be a Mass Effect in star wars single player experience masked as mutliplayer. That dosn't mean that it'll be a bad game, quite the contrary, Mass Effect was awesome the first time you played it. Is it enough for an MMO? We'll see soon enough.