I think Rift will have its place as the alternative as a WoW clone. For people who dont want to play WoW for whatever reason. If anyone else brings another TAB 123 mob dead mmo out like WoW or Rift most people wont play it I think.
So NOW I HOPE we will start to get better more innovative MMO games.
PS I hate Rift and WoW.
If you hate Rift & WoW ....you hate mmos.... because they are THE BEST mmos out there.
That's a bit biased. I think you're just trolling.
If you like Rift and WoW, you hate MMOs, because those are some of the most unoriginal and boring MMOs out there, and they have so much instancing they're hardly MMOs.
See? I can do it too, but at least what I said is accurate.
Rift is not instanced.............. just dungeons............. so not that accurate at all
I was not trying bother you... But i trully believe they are the Best mmos out there....maybe i´m missing something??
What Mmo would you recommend me better than those to play at the moment?
AAA MMO's are designed to target the widest possible audience not niche sub markets. Sandbox style is a niche market many do not want to be dropped in a open world. The most successful sandbox is Eve while successful it is around 300k subs not 12 million. You want sandbox, full open pvp, evolutionary you are going to have to go with indie developers and the trade off is sub par graphics, unfinished product at launch, buggy, unbalanced ect ect.
Maybe. But CCP is merged with White wolf and "World of darkness online" have a pretty interesting staff.
And Bethesda have had a MMO sub department for over 3 years headed by one of the founders from Mythic...
The real problem with sandbox MMOs is that most devs (and people here for that matter) are rather conservative and want something really close to UO (or possible pre-cu SWG). Both CCP and Bethesda are actually competent enough to put their own spin on things and create their own game and that might be what turn things around.
But the fans might say what they want, FFA PvP games with full looting and UO similar mechanics will never become really big. Sandbox games needs to evolve if they want to sell more games.
And if anyone truly can do that it is Bethesda. Well, or Rockstar, I hope they make a MMO as well.
I think Loke hits the nail here as there is diversity in the single play RPG market with Bethesda, Blizzard, Bioware, CDProjekt et al all making succesful and completely different AAA RPG's and they are evolving their games each generation but keeping the known flavour that each company is famous for. Now why can this not be the way in MMO's as it was in the early days and AAA companies evolving their own flavour of MMO as Mythic should have done with Warhammer. There is room for diversity but as Loke says you just have to evolve the genre and release it working as Rift has been but not just copy paste from another successful game hoping for the same success, none of this has even been attempted just imagine a MMO world like this......
Middle Earth Online - Based on Asherons Call hybrid skill/level system,but evolved.
Warhammer Online - mass RvR like DAOC but in Warhammer clothes
A 3d Medieval game sequal to UO - Sandbox world simulation FFA PvP
Everquest 2 - Hardcore PvE (severe DP and corpse runs), raiding, adventuring class based game.
World Of Warcraft - Hack 'n' Slash linear progession game with Esport based PvP.
I could go on but you get the point...
That for me is how the AAA world should look but it does not because of the success of WoW and the lack of balls many developers seem to display, it was there from 1997 to 2004 and none of these comapnies built on their previous success like companies in the single player RPG world have done all the companies I mention have been making successful evolved versions of their games for years and have grown large fanbases because of it if Turbine, Mythic, SOE, Origin/EA, Funcom should have done the same but got caught in the Blizzard headlights and thought they could out WoW WoW. So we have games like Rift, AOC, Warhammer, LotRO (to some extent but its a much better attempt at an original game) just pale imitations of WoW.
Cal would love to see Rockstar make an MMO.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
most f2p play games offer more polish and are working at release without the AAA budget Trion has had but thats just my opinion.
Cal.
You lose all credibility with this statement but you did state is was your opinion which was thoughtful. Take a look at the home page of this website. Do you see even a single F2P game in the most anticipated section? No you dont because they have no credibilty they are just pure money grabs. And I have yet to see a single one that isnt totally annoying in some way.
Yeah when I read that back to myself it did sound a bit troll like and Rift Bashing (its why I did not want this thread in the Rift forum but the admins saw it differently). Now I play many f2p's and have yet to play one at launch that was a carwreck but I think that the reason why there is no "anticipated" f2p is a culture thing many ignore f2p's on principle of the payment model but thats another thread altogether.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Your subject doesn't really align to your post text well... I want to talk about more the topic the subject mentions--
Yes, if RIFT is a success, it will have signicant and harmful impact on the MMO scene. It only reaffirms the lesson upstart studios think they're learning from Warcraft. They wonder if they copy how a 6 year old game did it, they'll get $$$, and look, here's RIFT, who largely did copy the set of features and mechanics WoW put together and "they're a success".
That's why RIFT irritates me so bad. I wanted this revolutionary exciting beautiful looking game to offer something revolutionary and exciting (it does cover beautiful looking). It's crazy for me to say "If RIFT succeeds, we'll have WoW mechanics in 2017" because surely the concepts and capabilities would evolve so much more in 6 years.. except they didn't make it the first time.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Or maybe they'll take the hint and start releasing games that are polished and feature complete from the get go, instead of bug ridden messes with half the features promised to be added sometime in the unknown future.
I may not care for what Trion did, but they did it extremely well. Like some other people, I don't think "polished" is a fair term but yeah it's a very stable game.
Remember also, it's a lot easier to build the same thing the other guy did and get it right than to strike out on your own and try a new way and have it bee as smooth an experience as the other guy's method, since he's spent 6 years perfecting it.
It's not a trade off, companies should be bringing innovation and non-beta quality releases to the market rather than one or the other. Some games have cloned what's on the market and it's been a smooth but boring experience, others have struck out on their own and it's been a bumpy or horrendous ride and others have cloned the big boys and done terribly at quality lol.
Reviewers everywhere are lamenting the age of patching and downloads because as many have said, there is less pressure for most companies to get it right--the dev team sweating bullets on launch day. Trion's release is a very high on quality release, if not high on new or creative substance.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Inovation and Polish are terms that are subjective, personal I have not ever seen an invotative game yet, they all borrow aspects of other games and add stuff or blend stuff together, I am seen people use inovative on games like elderscrolls but each elderscroll game simplifies and dumbs down the character creation set to me.
Polish to me is not just the game being stable and lag free, its having all skill working and being cool, all quets working and being well designed, all dungeons working and being unique. the first 2 dungeons I have done in rift so far are anything but just tank and spank for the bosses.
rift borrows a lot from other games just as all games have done and they impoved on these sets and fell short in others. mainly I would love to have an option of starting areas, but with rift invasions I see why they need to have high concetration of players in any area.
rift borrows a lot from other games just as all games have done and they impoved on these sets and fell short in others. mainly I would love to have an option of starting areas, but with rift invasions I see why they need to have high concetration of players in any area.
I think it might be a matter of finetuning the rifts.
Like, that maybe now the rule is 'when x players are in the area, scale rift generation and difficulty level up to y'.
But that they haven't taken correctly into account that a % of that x players, say like half of them or at least more than the devs anticipated, will not participate in closing rifts, but was merely traveling towards another area or will avoid the rifts and even log out when the rifts prove to be too intrusive.
If I understand it correctly, their only method of 'rift control' is as they said in one of the interviews that rifts from different planes will attack eachother, thus weakening eachother. Maybe you could even lure roaming mobs from 1 plane into the rift area from another plane, haven't seen this in action yet.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I really don't know but would be willing to bet that if Rift is a long term success then yes the AAA funded MMO will continue down the path of trying to out WOW. Though if SWTOR is also a long term success then maybe we might get some trying a sci-fy twist on the idea. If GW2 is a long term success we might see more erosion of the $15 a month payment model.
But whats really going to make or break everything is Blizzards new MMO if thats a long term success and it's nothing like WOW then everythings all up in the air again.
This pretty sums up my instinct too. Although I would add that I think they would have continued to emulate WoW despite Rift's potential succcess, but this probably will re-inforce it.
I would also emphasize the impact that Blizzards next mmo could have overall.
On a personal level I'm holding out hope for TSW.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
If you're an example of the 'new guard' coming in I pitty the world not just the MMO genre of games. You spit out more exaggerations and lies than anyone I have met in years, even on this site. Is there any truth behind anything you say?
As for me getting what I have wanted over the past 6 years, its more like the past 15-20 years. You know why? Because I adapt on every game that comes out, learn its rules, play by them, and enjoy/excel at every one of them. People like you prefer to bitch and whine about how things dont meet your expectations instead. Really its just that you can't adapt and excel thats the issue at hand. You dont feel special enough so you blame your own inadaquecies on the game instead of yourself.
The recent changes in games I dont like are where they are coninutously listening to the whiners and making games easier and easier to accommodate people like you. My opinion, if you can't hack the game as it is, then dont play it. And I honestly think if more gaming companies followed that route the 'genre' would be 100 times better right now than it is. You laugh all you want boy. Because when it comes down to it, I'll be out there being a success in life while your still asking dad for $20 for gas in the car.
I game for the entertainment of it, you game to try and prove your something you're not. I already am something, and I dont need to prove it to anyone, including you. This genre will continue as it always has, following the money. If it makes cash it will be done, if it doesn't it wont. Its not a principle thing, or an immersion thing, or an innovative thing, its simply a money thing.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Originally posted by Garvon3 Originally posted by Kaocan
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Kaocan
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work. Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are. Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience. I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that? You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted. I'll be there laughing at you.
Adapt or get out is actually good advice. If you don't like the game, it's obviously not making you happy talking about it, and you're obviously not convincing anyone that your point of view is the "right" one. Here's a hint - there is no "right" point of view...they're all opinions and they're all perfectly valid.
Me, I plan on adapting to what's available, whether that's an mmorpg or Portal 2 in April. However, success breeds success. If the success of Rift continues, you'll see more development, not less. More development means more innovation, not less.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
Well, the thing is, the world works where you either have to adapt or remove yourself from the scene.
Look, as far as these forums are concnered and as far as I can tell, I probably have cornered the market on ingesting esoteric media.
not an expert on any level but I go to concerts where the norm is 12 tone music or just Aleatoric music or even microtonal music.
I go to bizarre films that probably have never been shown to mass audiences nor would they want to see them.
When I'm at any art museum I head straight toward the contemporary exhibit.
This is not to toot my own horn or make it seem that I am somehow better than anyone (because I certainly am not) but just to give some background.
Reason for this is that I am very acquainted with types of media that are not in the mainstream. And that's the thing, I can easily understand why they are not in the mainstream. I don't get angry because millions of dollars are not being poured into Free Jazz or Orchestras playing the same things over and over and over and over again.
I just look around knowingly at the 15 or so audience members (all guys for the most part except for the few who dragged their seemingly bored girlfriends with them) and am comfortable in the fact that there is a small amount of people who like this stuff and we are there for the work. Not because it's popular or cool or makes us more beautiful.
mmos are the same way. Players looking for more esoteric experiences need to come to grips with the idea that they are not mainstream. They can either enjoy what offerings come their way for what they are (and perhaps some day something big budget will be created to their tastes) or they can remove themselves from the genre and seek out entertainment in some other venue.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
Adapt or get out is actually good advice. If you don't like the game, it's obviously not making you happy talking about it, and you're obviously not convincing anyone that your point of view is the "right" one. Here's a hint - there is no "right" point of view...they're all opinions and they're all perfectly valid.
Me, I plan on adapting to what's available, whether that's an mmorpg or Portal 2 in April. However, success breeds success. If the success of Rift continues, you'll see more development, not less. More development means more innovation, not less.
Adapting is one thing settling for copy after copy is not adapting if you see that there is nothing new to be had, thats how companies with the aid of great marketing get away we rehashing to make profit. My main interest in life is music and I do not want to see the gaming industry go the same way as the music business and marginalise quality innovative music for the sake of maximising profit and I see that with AAA MMO's to some extent but they are far from that stage yet and I think thats where Garvon is coming from. If you don't speak up with a clear objective in your thoughts then that is what will happen in the long run, many people settle for less in there lives without really knowing there are better alternatives to what they have been force feed through mainstream media. At one time in the music industry the cream used to rise to the surface and why one of my main interests is British and American music from the 60's where this happened and we got a great diverse music industry from bands like Cream to The Doors, Grateful Dead, The Beatles and The Velvet Underground this diversity went on until the late 80's early 90's until the mainstream Radio and TV stations became marketing arms of the big 5 (as it was then) Record Labels. Now they rehash the past fronted by a pretty face and video with a massive marketing budget, is that something you want to see in the Video Games industry? As I have said it not there yet but I see the same seeds being planted and I'm afraid to say if Rift succeeds we move closer to that reality and even though Garvon can seem to be a broken record (pun intended) at times his views are as valid.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
Adapt or get out is actually good advice. If you don't like the game, it's obviously not making you happy talking about it, and you're obviously not convincing anyone that your point of view is the "right" one. Here's a hint - there is no "right" point of view...they're all opinions and they're all perfectly valid.
Me, I plan on adapting to what's available, whether that's an mmorpg or Portal 2 in April. However, success breeds success. If the success of Rift continues, you'll see more development, not less. More development means more innovation, not less.
Adapting is one thing settling for copy after copy is not adapting if you see that there is nothing new to be had, thats how companies with the aid of great marketing get away we rehashing to make profit. My main interest in life is music and I do not want to see the gaming industry go the same way as the music business and marginalise quality innovative music for the sake of maximising profit and I see that with AAA MMO's to some extent but they are far from that stage yet and I think thats where Garvon is coming from. If you don't speak up with a clear objective in your thoughts then that is what will happen in the long run, many people settle for less in there lives without really knowing there are better alternatives to what they have been force feed through mainstream media. At one time in the music industry the cream used to rise to the surface and why one of my main interests is British and American music from the 60's where this happened and we got a great diverse music industry from bands like Cream to The Doors, Grateful Dead, The Beatles and The Velvet Underground this diversity went on until the late 80's early 90's until the mainstream Radio and TV stations became marketing arms of the big 5 (as it was then) Record Labels. Now they rehash the past fronted by a pretty face and video with a massive marketing budget is that something you want to see in the Video Games industry? AS I have said it not there yet but I see the same seeds being planted and I'm afraid to say if Rift succeeds we move closer to that reality and even though Garvon can seem to be a broken record (pun intended) at times his views are as valid.
Cal.
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Not understanding why everyone just doesn't get it and leave it alone. Rift is just another brand of coffee on the supermarket shelf.
Really, another food analogy? These really don't work.
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
Adapt or get out is actually good advice. If you don't like the game, it's obviously not making you happy talking about it, and you're obviously not convincing anyone that your point of view is the "right" one. Here's a hint - there is no "right" point of view...they're all opinions and they're all perfectly valid.
Me, I plan on adapting to what's available, whether that's an mmorpg or Portal 2 in April. However, success breeds success. If the success of Rift continues, you'll see more development, not less. More development means more innovation, not less.
Adapting is one thing settling for copy after copy is not adapting if you see that there is nothing new to be had, thats how companies with the aid of great marketing get away we rehashing to make profit. My main interest in life is music and I do not want to see the gaming industry go the same way as the music business and marginalise quality innovative music for the sake of maximising profit and I see that with AAA MMO's to some extent but they are far from that stage yet and I think thats where Garvon is coming from. If you don't speak up with a clear objective in your thoughts then that is what will happen in the long run, many people settle for less in there lives without really knowing there are better alternatives to what they have been force feed through mainstream media. At one time in the music industry the cream used to rise to the surface and why one of my main interests is British and American music from the 60's where this happened and we got a great diverse music industry from bands like Cream to The Doors, Grateful Dead, The Beatles and The Velvet Underground this diversity went on until the late 80's early 90's until the mainstream Radio and TV stations became marketing arms of the big 5 (as it was then) Record Labels. Now they rehash the past fronted by a pretty face and video with a massive marketing budget is that something you want to see in the Video Games industry? AS I have said it not there yet but I see the same seeds being planted and I'm afraid to say if Rift succeeds we move closer to that reality and even though Garvon can seem to be a broken record (pun intended) at times his views are as valid.
Cal.
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
I think this is pertinent here.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Sovath.
I understand your point as I'm into Free Jazz, Breakcore and other extreme types of music but I still get saddened by the state of the mainstream music industry as I'm also into many artists that should be heard by more people and I will speak up for those artists as I feel many others would enjoy them as much as I do and in the past they would have got much more recognition, we should not accept sub quality product or lack of diversity in any form.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
If you hate Rift & WoW ....you hate mmos.... because they are THE BEST mmos out there.
Rift isn't even the best MMO released this year (DCUO is a better title) much less the best out there.
I just don't see very many people sticking with Rift once another good title comes out. It is really just WoW with different graphics and less soul. There is nothing specifically wrong with Rift mind you, if I hadn't played WoW and gotten bored of this specific type of MMO I might have played it at release but I just couldn't get into it since most of the combat systems are weaker WoW knockoffs.
So I guess in the long run I don't think it will do much damage, people realize what it is mostly. Most new games seem to be moving towards more interactive combat so this specific genre of MMO is probably going to become a dying breed once people get used to it.
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
I think this is pertinent here.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Cal.
well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett.
Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it.
People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
I think this is pertinent here.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Cal.
well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett.
Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it.
People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is".
I have had times in my life when if I hadn't listened to others and opened my mind to newer things I wouldn't have discovered other worlds of interest. I'm not saying force feeding people Shakespear, Hemingway, Kerouac but exposing people to this level of quality some of it might stick and that in time will help to bring people upto another level of quality and see what they are being shown by the modern media world to be not so good.
Cal.
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Originally posted by Calerxes Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Sovrath
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours. Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone. This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
I think this is pertinent here. "If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it" Cal. well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett. Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it. People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is". I have had times in my life when if I hadn't listened to others and opened my mind to newer things I wouldn't have discovered other worlds of interest. I'm not saying force feeding people Shakespear, Hemingway, Kerouac but exposing people to this level of quality some of it might stick and that in time will help to bring people upto another level of quality and see what they are being shown by the modern media world to be not so good.
Cal.
That's all very nice, but we're talking about MMORPG here. MMORPG are not literature, they're games. I'm not saying they can't be art, but you're stretching a bit if you're going to compare the games we're playing to Shakespeare. If the game doesn't pay the bills, it's pointless. Money isn't the only consideration, but it's not optional.
A band can get by playing Jazz or whatever else they want because they all have day jobs. It is very few and far between the people that can hold down a day job and program a fully functional mmorpg (Eskil Steenburg is the only person I'm aware of that's done it with 'Love'). There's no real comparison there with music or even movies. Until the development tools get to the point that a few guys or one guy can create a fully functional mmorpg with acceptable graphics instead of 2.5D sprites, then you might see something similar. Small scale quality stuff. This is why, even if you don't like what Rift provides, it's still a good thing. Success will bring more money to the entire industry. More money means more development, not just of the games, but of the tools as well.
Finally, "I don't like it" doesn't mean "It's bad". It just means you don't like it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
I think this is pertinent here.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Cal.
well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett.
Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it.
People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is".
I have had times in my life when if I hadn't listened to others and opened my mind to newer things I wouldn't have discovered other worlds of interest. I'm not saying force feeding people Shakespear, Hemingway, Kerouac but exposing people to this level of quality some of it might stick and that in time will help to bring people upto another level of quality and see what they are being shown by the modern media world to be not so good.
Cal.
That's very true. I can't disagree.
However, as the old addage goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".
If it sticks great but from my experience, telling someone to eat their spinach because it is good for them isn't going to work. New experiences are great and should be there (if they can exist on their own) but people have to want to partake.
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I'm pleased to see Rift doing well. The western market of MMORPGs has had a three year run of less than stellar to outright shoddy releases. Having a game do well grows the market. I don't mind that it's a themepark... at least its not another "cartoony" one.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
That's all very nice, but we're talking about MMORPG here. MMORPG are not literature, they're games. I'm not saying they can't be art, but you're stretching a bit if you're going to compare the games we're playing to Shakespeare. If the game doesn't pay the bills, it's pointless. Money isn't the only consideration, but it's not optional.
A band can get by playing Jazz or whatever else they want because they all have day jobs. It is very few and far between the people that can hold down a day job and program a fully functional mmorpg (Eskil Steenburg is the only person I'm aware of that's done it with 'Love'). There's no real comparison there with music or even movies. Until the development tools get to the point that a few guys or one guy can create a fully functional mmorpg with acceptable graphics instead of 2.5D sprites, then you might see something similar. Small scale quality stuff. This is why, even if you don't like what Rift provides, it's still a good thing. Success will bring more money to the entire industry. More money means more development, not just of the games, but of the tools as well.
Finally, "I don't like it" doesn't mean "It's bad". It just means you don't like it.
I think it's imporrtant to note that I (or anyone else for that matter) am not saying that games are high art. Oh sure, some people will put them forward as "art" and that's fine, but that wasn't the purpose of my comparison.
I am comparing media that has mainstream elements and smaller, esoteric, niche elements.
And games DO have that. There is a complete difference between a game like WoW or any hot console shooter when compared to that new game in development "Salem".
That's the comparison.
I do like how you mentioned that Jazz players can have a day job but that prorgrammers probably need to be working on what they are working on and making their money doing that. And you are right, it is harder to create an mmo with a team that has day jobs.
However, that aside, I am really talking about appeal over the actual nitty gritty of how a game is made. Also, it might be important to note that there are a few games made by single people. "Love" comes to mind.
Yet your point stands that money and a lot of time is required. Just put it in perspective of appeal which is really my main thought.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
I think this is pertinent here.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Cal.
well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett.
Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it.
People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is".
I have had times in my life when if I hadn't listened to others and opened my mind to newer things I wouldn't have discovered other worlds of interest. I'm not saying force feeding people Shakespear, Hemingway, Kerouac but exposing people to this level of quality some of it might stick and that in time will help to bring people upto another level of quality and see what they are being shown by the modern media world to be not so good.
Cal.
That's all very nice, but we're talking about MMORPG here. MMORPG are not literature, they're games. I'm not saying they can't be art, but you're stretching a bit if you're going to compare the games we're playing to Shakespeare. If the game doesn't pay the bills, it's pointless. Money isn't the only consideration, but it's not optional.
A band can get by playing Jazz or whatever else they want because they all have day jobs. It is very few and far between the people that can hold down a day job and program a fully functional mmorpg (Eskil Steenburg is the only person I'm aware of that's done it with 'Love'). There's no real comparison there with music or even movies. Until the development tools get to the point that a few guys or one guy can create a fully functional mmorpg with acceptable graphics instead of 2.5D sprites, then you might see something similar. Small scale quality stuff. This is why, even if you don't like what Rift provides, it's still a good thing. Success will bring more money to the entire industry. More money means more development, not just of the games, but of the tools as well.
Finally, "I don't like it" doesn't mean "It's bad". It just means you don't like it.
Lizard we have got a little off piste here me and Sovrath but you highlight a point, yes MMO's take a lot more input than other mediums but that makes it more pertinent to speak up when you see them moving towards a cut and paste ethic, with music you can just stop buying the music but working AAA MMO's seem to be few and far between these days. Now what I see in Rift to me it is bad so don't confuse me with just disliking the game, I generally think the underbelly of the game is bad and when the rifts and invasions wear thin others might see it too. But I'm under no illusion, hence this thread, that I could be very wrong and Rift is a huge success, many don't see The Velvet Underground as the greatest American band ever and I understand that point of view even though they are all WRONG
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Originally posted by Calerxes Lizard we have got a little off piste here me and Sovrath but you highlight a point, yes MMO's take a lot more input than other mediums but that makes it more pertinent to speak up when you see them moving towards a cut and paste ethic, with music you can just stop buying the music but working AAA MMO's seem to be few and far between these days. Now what I see in Rift to me it is bad so don't confuse me with just disliking the game, I generally think the underbelly of the game is bad and when the rifts and invasions wear thin others might see it too. But I'm under no illusion, hence this thread, that I could be very wrong and Rift is a huge success, many don't see The Velvet Underground as the greatest American band ever and I understand that point of view even though they are all WRONG
Cal.
Somewhere, there is a map of music. It's done on aged parchment with a dark brown stain rather than ink. There's a spot on that map with your name under it. The area you're in has no name, but slightly above it in stylized text are the words, "Here Be Dragons". :-)
Right now, I don't think it's important that a specific type of game be successful, or that any particular game be successful. Rather, something needs to be successful, preferably very successful. If Blizzard is the only company that can make a successful mmorpg (successful to the investors and the general public) then Blizzard will be the only company makes mmorpgs. That would be very bad. Not because it's Blizzard, but because only one company is doing it. If Rift is successful, that means Trion is successful...somebody besides Blizzard can do it. Other companies will learn from what Trion has done, and they'll do something a little different. This is your mainstream. However...
In April, a free Hero Engine service is starting up (http://ideafabrik.de/). You can develop, for free, an mmorpg that costs you nothing to run. The only thing you need to supply is the work. People could actually write a fully functional 3D mmorpg. The limiting factor is their willingness to work (and download Blender). Being a small group or an individual with a day job won't be the barrier it is now to making a decent game. I've exchanged some emails with one of the Idea Fabrik reps and they envision the community trading and sharing resources (game models, maps, audio, etc.) which lowers the barrier even further. I'm not saying Idea Fabrik is the thing, but it's the type of thing that will bring new ideas and game play innovation.
* edit * Messed up BBML code.
@Sovrath - I just couldn't think of anything to say. Thanks for agreeing with some of what I said. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Rift is not instanced.............. just dungeons............. so not that accurate at all
I was not trying bother you... But i trully believe they are the Best mmos out there....maybe i´m missing something??
What Mmo would you recommend me better than those to play at the moment?
I think Loke hits the nail here as there is diversity in the single play RPG market with Bethesda, Blizzard, Bioware, CDProjekt et al all making succesful and completely different AAA RPG's and they are evolving their games each generation but keeping the known flavour that each company is famous for. Now why can this not be the way in MMO's as it was in the early days and AAA companies evolving their own flavour of MMO as Mythic should have done with Warhammer. There is room for diversity but as Loke says you just have to evolve the genre and release it working as Rift has been but not just copy paste from another successful game hoping for the same success, none of this has even been attempted just imagine a MMO world like this......
Middle Earth Online - Based on Asherons Call hybrid skill/level system,but evolved.
Warhammer Online - mass RvR like DAOC but in Warhammer clothes
A 3d Medieval game sequal to UO - Sandbox world simulation FFA PvP
SWG - Sandbox trading, adventuring, consensual PvP, socialisation game.
Everquest 2 - Hardcore PvE (severe DP and corpse runs), raiding, adventuring class based game.
World Of Warcraft - Hack 'n' Slash linear progession game with Esport based PvP.
I could go on but you get the point...
That for me is how the AAA world should look but it does not because of the success of WoW and the lack of balls many developers seem to display, it was there from 1997 to 2004 and none of these comapnies built on their previous success like companies in the single player RPG world have done all the companies I mention have been making successful evolved versions of their games for years and have grown large fanbases because of it if Turbine, Mythic, SOE, Origin/EA, Funcom should have done the same but got caught in the Blizzard headlights and thought they could out WoW WoW. So we have games like Rift, AOC, Warhammer, LotRO (to some extent but its a much better attempt at an original game) just pale imitations of WoW.
Cal would love to see Rockstar make an MMO.
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Yeah when I read that back to myself it did sound a bit troll like and Rift Bashing (its why I did not want this thread in the Rift forum but the admins saw it differently). Now I play many f2p's and have yet to play one at launch that was a carwreck but I think that the reason why there is no "anticipated" f2p is a culture thing many ignore f2p's on principle of the payment model but thats another thread altogether.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Your subject doesn't really align to your post text well... I want to talk about more the topic the subject mentions--
Yes, if RIFT is a success, it will have signicant and harmful impact on the MMO scene. It only reaffirms the lesson upstart studios think they're learning from Warcraft. They wonder if they copy how a 6 year old game did it, they'll get $$$, and look, here's RIFT, who largely did copy the set of features and mechanics WoW put together and "they're a success".
That's why RIFT irritates me so bad. I wanted this revolutionary exciting beautiful looking game to offer something revolutionary and exciting (it does cover beautiful looking). It's crazy for me to say "If RIFT succeeds, we'll have WoW mechanics in 2017" because surely the concepts and capabilities would evolve so much more in 6 years.. except they didn't make it the first time.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Or maybe they'll take the hint and start releasing games that are polished and feature complete from the get go, instead of bug ridden messes with half the features promised to be added sometime in the unknown future.
I may not care for what Trion did, but they did it extremely well. Like some other people, I don't think "polished" is a fair term but yeah it's a very stable game.
Remember also, it's a lot easier to build the same thing the other guy did and get it right than to strike out on your own and try a new way and have it bee as smooth an experience as the other guy's method, since he's spent 6 years perfecting it.
It's not a trade off, companies should be bringing innovation and non-beta quality releases to the market rather than one or the other. Some games have cloned what's on the market and it's been a smooth but boring experience, others have struck out on their own and it's been a bumpy or horrendous ride and others have cloned the big boys and done terribly at quality lol.
Reviewers everywhere are lamenting the age of patching and downloads because as many have said, there is less pressure for most companies to get it right--the dev team sweating bullets on launch day. Trion's release is a very high on quality release, if not high on new or creative substance.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Inovation and Polish are terms that are subjective, personal I have not ever seen an invotative game yet, they all borrow aspects of other games and add stuff or blend stuff together, I am seen people use inovative on games like elderscrolls but each elderscroll game simplifies and dumbs down the character creation set to me.
Polish to me is not just the game being stable and lag free, its having all skill working and being cool, all quets working and being well designed, all dungeons working and being unique. the first 2 dungeons I have done in rift so far are anything but just tank and spank for the bosses.
rift borrows a lot from other games just as all games have done and they impoved on these sets and fell short in others. mainly I would love to have an option of starting areas, but with rift invasions I see why they need to have high concetration of players in any area.
I think it might be a matter of finetuning the rifts.
Like, that maybe now the rule is 'when x players are in the area, scale rift generation and difficulty level up to y'.
But that they haven't taken correctly into account that a % of that x players, say like half of them or at least more than the devs anticipated, will not participate in closing rifts, but was merely traveling towards another area or will avoid the rifts and even log out when the rifts prove to be too intrusive.
If I understand it correctly, their only method of 'rift control' is as they said in one of the interviews that rifts from different planes will attack eachother, thus weakening eachother. Maybe you could even lure roaming mobs from 1 plane into the rift area from another plane, haven't seen this in action yet.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This pretty sums up my instinct too. Although I would add that I think they would have continued to emulate WoW despite Rift's potential succcess, but this probably will re-inforce it.
I would also emphasize the impact that Blizzards next mmo could have overall.
On a personal level I'm holding out hope for TSW.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
If you're an example of the 'new guard' coming in I pitty the world not just the MMO genre of games. You spit out more exaggerations and lies than anyone I have met in years, even on this site. Is there any truth behind anything you say?
As for me getting what I have wanted over the past 6 years, its more like the past 15-20 years. You know why? Because I adapt on every game that comes out, learn its rules, play by them, and enjoy/excel at every one of them. People like you prefer to bitch and whine about how things dont meet your expectations instead. Really its just that you can't adapt and excel thats the issue at hand. You dont feel special enough so you blame your own inadaquecies on the game instead of yourself.
The recent changes in games I dont like are where they are coninutously listening to the whiners and making games easier and easier to accommodate people like you. My opinion, if you can't hack the game as it is, then dont play it. And I honestly think if more gaming companies followed that route the 'genre' would be 100 times better right now than it is. You laugh all you want boy. Because when it comes down to it, I'll be out there being a success in life while your still asking dad for $20 for gas in the car.
I game for the entertainment of it, you game to try and prove your something you're not. I already am something, and I dont need to prove it to anyone, including you. This genre will continue as it always has, following the money. If it makes cash it will be done, if it doesn't it wont. Its not a principle thing, or an immersion thing, or an innovative thing, its simply a money thing.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Some people are used to MMOs that do different things, new things, expand on ideas, come up with new ideas. Or at least core/veteran MMORPG players are.
Some people are tired of playing the same game over and over again and wish companies would actually try something new. There's nothing to "get". Some people want something new, but companies haven't been giving it to us, so if yet another clone turns a profit it'll just continue to encourage publishers to ignore the core MMO audience.
I get it, really I do. You didnt get what you wanted so your all pissed off about it. You have decided that it is your mission in life to make sure nobody else has any peace and quiet until they agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that some of us are tired of listening to the whines about I want, I want, I want, and just want to play a game and enjoy it. Like drinking my coffee. Is it so hard for you to understand that?
You've been getting exactly what you want for the last 6 years. We'll see how you react when your favorite genre vanishes out from under you, and all the newcomers to the "new" version of the genre tell you to adapt or get out, you're old guard and you're not wanted.
I'll be there laughing at you.
Adapt or get out is actually good advice. If you don't like the game, it's obviously not making you happy talking about it, and you're obviously not convincing anyone that your point of view is the "right" one. Here's a hint - there is no "right" point of view...they're all opinions and they're all perfectly valid.
Me, I plan on adapting to what's available, whether that's an mmorpg or Portal 2 in April. However, success breeds success. If the success of Rift continues, you'll see more development, not less. More development means more innovation, not less.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, the thing is, the world works where you either have to adapt or remove yourself from the scene.
Look, as far as these forums are concnered and as far as I can tell, I probably have cornered the market on ingesting esoteric media.
not an expert on any level but I go to concerts where the norm is 12 tone music or just Aleatoric music or even microtonal music.
I go to bizarre films that probably have never been shown to mass audiences nor would they want to see them.
When I'm at any art museum I head straight toward the contemporary exhibit.
This is not to toot my own horn or make it seem that I am somehow better than anyone (because I certainly am not) but just to give some background.
Reason for this is that I am very acquainted with types of media that are not in the mainstream. And that's the thing, I can easily understand why they are not in the mainstream. I don't get angry because millions of dollars are not being poured into Free Jazz or Orchestras playing the same things over and over and over and over again.
I just look around knowingly at the 15 or so audience members (all guys for the most part except for the few who dragged their seemingly bored girlfriends with them) and am comfortable in the fact that there is a small amount of people who like this stuff and we are there for the work. Not because it's popular or cool or makes us more beautiful.
mmos are the same way. Players looking for more esoteric experiences need to come to grips with the idea that they are not mainstream. They can either enjoy what offerings come their way for what they are (and perhaps some day something big budget will be created to their tastes) or they can remove themselves from the genre and seek out entertainment in some other venue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There's variety in the AAA mmo world? That's news to me!
Usually it's all the same thing with a slightly different skin and slightly different mechanics, but all the same guts
Adapting is one thing settling for copy after copy is not adapting if you see that there is nothing new to be had, thats how companies with the aid of great marketing get away we rehashing to make profit. My main interest in life is music and I do not want to see the gaming industry go the same way as the music business and marginalise quality innovative music for the sake of maximising profit and I see that with AAA MMO's to some extent but they are far from that stage yet and I think thats where Garvon is coming from. If you don't speak up with a clear objective in your thoughts then that is what will happen in the long run, many people settle for less in there lives without really knowing there are better alternatives to what they have been force feed through mainstream media. At one time in the music industry the cream used to rise to the surface and why one of my main interests is British and American music from the 60's where this happened and we got a great diverse music industry from bands like Cream to The Doors, Grateful Dead, The Beatles and The Velvet Underground this diversity went on until the late 80's early 90's until the mainstream Radio and TV stations became marketing arms of the big 5 (as it was then) Record Labels. Now they rehash the past fronted by a pretty face and video with a massive marketing budget, is that something you want to see in the Video Games industry? As I have said it not there yet but I see the same seeds being planted and I'm afraid to say if Rift succeeds we move closer to that reality and even though Garvon can seem to be a broken record (pun intended) at times his views are as valid.
Cal.
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Well, then you probably can appreciate my post above yours.
Why do you think that games are any different than movies or music or books? They will go exactly where movies and music and books have gone.
This has been happening long before we were born, it's not new.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think this is pertinent here.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Sovath.
I understand your point as I'm into Free Jazz, Breakcore and other extreme types of music but I still get saddened by the state of the mainstream music industry as I'm also into many artists that should be heard by more people and I will speak up for those artists as I feel many others would enjoy them as much as I do and in the past they would have got much more recognition, we should not accept sub quality product or lack of diversity in any form.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Rift isn't even the best MMO released this year (DCUO is a better title) much less the best out there.
I just don't see very many people sticking with Rift once another good title comes out. It is really just WoW with different graphics and less soul. There is nothing specifically wrong with Rift mind you, if I hadn't played WoW and gotten bored of this specific type of MMO I might have played it at release but I just couldn't get into it since most of the combat systems are weaker WoW knockoffs.
So I guess in the long run I don't think it will do much damage, people realize what it is mostly. Most new games seem to be moving towards more interactive combat so this specific genre of MMO is probably going to become a dying breed once people get used to it.
well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett.
Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it.
People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I have had times in my life when if I hadn't listened to others and opened my mind to newer things I wouldn't have discovered other worlds of interest. I'm not saying force feeding people Shakespear, Hemingway, Kerouac but exposing people to this level of quality some of it might stick and that in time will help to bring people upto another level of quality and see what they are being shown by the modern media world to be not so good.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
"If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"
Cal.
well that's very true. However, one thing that I'm convinced of is that people are people. saying to someone "you have to read beckett because it's good for you" really doesn't do it if they just hate beckett.
Heck, I was taking a course on Victorian crime and horror and I just couldn't get through the reading. Wuthering Heights is a horrible book to slog through. I can tell myself I'll be a better person for it but the reality is that I was hating every minute of it.
People are going to be attracted to what they are attracted to. This isn't a bad thing, it just "is".
I have had times in my life when if I hadn't listened to others and opened my mind to newer things I wouldn't have discovered other worlds of interest. I'm not saying force feeding people Shakespear, Hemingway, Kerouac but exposing people to this level of quality some of it might stick and that in time will help to bring people upto another level of quality and see what they are being shown by the modern media world to be not so good.
Cal.
That's all very nice, but we're talking about MMORPG here. MMORPG are not literature, they're games. I'm not saying they can't be art, but you're stretching a bit if you're going to compare the games we're playing to Shakespeare. If the game doesn't pay the bills, it's pointless. Money isn't the only consideration, but it's not optional.
A band can get by playing Jazz or whatever else they want because they all have day jobs. It is very few and far between the people that can hold down a day job and program a fully functional mmorpg (Eskil Steenburg is the only person I'm aware of that's done it with 'Love'). There's no real comparison there with music or even movies. Until the development tools get to the point that a few guys or one guy can create a fully functional mmorpg with acceptable graphics instead of 2.5D sprites, then you might see something similar. Small scale quality stuff. This is why, even if you don't like what Rift provides, it's still a good thing. Success will bring more money to the entire industry. More money means more development, not just of the games, but of the tools as well.
Finally, "I don't like it" doesn't mean "It's bad". It just means you don't like it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's very true. I can't disagree.
However, as the old addage goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".
If it sticks great but from my experience, telling someone to eat their spinach because it is good for them isn't going to work. New experiences are great and should be there (if they can exist on their own) but people have to want to partake.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm pleased to see Rift doing well. The western market of MMORPGs has had a three year run of less than stellar to outright shoddy releases. Having a game do well grows the market. I don't mind that it's a themepark... at least its not another "cartoony" one.
I think it's imporrtant to note that I (or anyone else for that matter) am not saying that games are high art. Oh sure, some people will put them forward as "art" and that's fine, but that wasn't the purpose of my comparison.
I am comparing media that has mainstream elements and smaller, esoteric, niche elements.
And games DO have that. There is a complete difference between a game like WoW or any hot console shooter when compared to that new game in development "Salem".
That's the comparison.
I do like how you mentioned that Jazz players can have a day job but that prorgrammers probably need to be working on what they are working on and making their money doing that. And you are right, it is harder to create an mmo with a team that has day jobs.
However, that aside, I am really talking about appeal over the actual nitty gritty of how a game is made. Also, it might be important to note that there are a few games made by single people. "Love" comes to mind.
Yet your point stands that money and a lot of time is required. Just put it in perspective of appeal which is really my main thought.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Lizard we have got a little off piste here me and Sovrath but you highlight a point, yes MMO's take a lot more input than other mediums but that makes it more pertinent to speak up when you see them moving towards a cut and paste ethic, with music you can just stop buying the music but working AAA MMO's seem to be few and far between these days. Now what I see in Rift to me it is bad so don't confuse me with just disliking the game, I generally think the underbelly of the game is bad and when the rifts and invasions wear thin others might see it too. But I'm under no illusion, hence this thread, that I could be very wrong and Rift is a huge success, many don't see The Velvet Underground as the greatest American band ever and I understand that point of view even though they are all WRONG
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Somewhere, there is a map of music. It's done on aged parchment with a dark brown stain rather than ink. There's a spot on that map with your name under it. The area you're in has no name, but slightly above it in stylized text are the words, "Here Be Dragons". :-)
Right now, I don't think it's important that a specific type of game be successful, or that any particular game be successful. Rather, something needs to be successful, preferably very successful. If Blizzard is the only company that can make a successful mmorpg (successful to the investors and the general public) then Blizzard will be the only company makes mmorpgs. That would be very bad. Not because it's Blizzard, but because only one company is doing it. If Rift is successful, that means Trion is successful...somebody besides Blizzard can do it. Other companies will learn from what Trion has done, and they'll do something a little different. This is your mainstream. However...
In April, a free Hero Engine service is starting up (http://ideafabrik.de/). You can develop, for free, an mmorpg that costs you nothing to run. The only thing you need to supply is the work. People could actually write a fully functional 3D mmorpg. The limiting factor is their willingness to work (and download Blender). Being a small group or an individual with a day job won't be the barrier it is now to making a decent game. I've exchanged some emails with one of the Idea Fabrik reps and they envision the community trading and sharing resources (game models, maps, audio, etc.) which lowers the barrier even further. I'm not saying Idea Fabrik is the thing, but it's the type of thing that will bring new ideas and game play innovation.
* edit *
Messed up BBML code.
@Sovrath - I just couldn't think of anything to say. Thanks for agreeing with some of what I said. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.