How much have they really changed since EQ was the mmo standard?
WoW didn't really bring anything new to the table really.
That really depends on which elements you focus on. To me WoW brought great progress since it improved the game elements I cared about. If teh progress is in areas you really do not care about it, you will not notice it or simply discount it.
Instead of acknowledging the obvious progress the genre has made over the last 7 years it looks like most people are just making up their own definitions of "progress".
Here are some examples of progress in the real world:
Was it progress when commercial aviation became popular? It greatly reduced long travel times. I suppose there were people that were convinced that road trips built character or some such nonsense.
Yeah, now we get body cavity searched on our way across the country, (after standing in hellishly long lines to be irradiated)have our luggage destroyed and catch strange illnesses from our fellow passengers
Was it progress when computers started replacing people in certain jobs? When they created ATM machines I am sure there were people concinved that it was better to simply ask the human teller to withdraw funds.
Yeah, now my bank accounts get looted (twice) because someone supposedly slipped a reader into the ATM and got my card info, I now spend over 4 hours a day responding to over 150 emails a day (how did we ever get any work done back then?).
Was broadcast television progress? Oh no it just made people lazy couch potatoes. We should be hiking down to the theater if we want to see the motion picture.
Er, Reality Television. And yes, we really should be hiking around somewhere besides sitting in front of a device that many families won't even allow in their home.
Microwaves? - Are useless to bake in, reheat a pizza, pretty much any form of cooking that doesn't involve reheating leftovers and soup.
Notice how nearly every bit of progress just makes life more convenient, cheaper, easier, and more accessible?
Notice how every improvement you listed could be considered a negative in terms what has been lost to gain the "benefits" you mention.
Back to MMOG's...
Is a dungeon finder progress? I am sure there will always be people that liked spamming the LFG channel for hours.
It may make finding a group easier, but spamming LFG (or sending direct tells was a much better tactic btw, or joining a good guild) resulted in encouraging a player to develop their social skills and interact with their fellow gamer. Now they can just jump in a group, get their loot, and drop without ever speaking to anyone. A true step backwards in my book that totally outweighs the benefits.
Are quest map markers progress? Those Thottbot searches were fun I bet.
No, what actually was fun was trying to figure out where you were supposed to go, becauses quests were an adventure, and not a mechanic for progression which they've devolved into.
Is quest driven progression progress? You must have enjoyed finding the best places to mindlessly grind MOB's with no real direction or purpose.
Actually, yes, I've come to understand that grinding mobs (which had a very focused purpose) with friends or even random people on the server was more social, and more fun than running quests solo ad nasuem. At first quest based progression was novel, now its worn out and tedious beyond belief which is why everyone wants to rush past it.
Was Cryptic's single server architecture progress? You were probably too blinded by hate to even notice.
EVE did it first and better. Cryptic makes crap games, just one man's opinion.
Was Turbine's F2P pay system progress? You'll probably tell me that payment systems are not a MMORPG feature (at least until I ask you for money).
This was innovative, and certainly the fremium model breaths new life into dying MMORPG's, but I don't call it progress, just a variation of the payment model. (I totally prefer sub models, period)
Don't graphical improvements count? Even WoW looks much better now than it did at release.
Gameplay before graphics, and all the graphic improvements in the world don't make up for bland, boring gameplay which too many MMO's are clearly stuck in.
Freely distributed client downloads? I loved digging my old disks out of the bottom of a box in the closet.
Sometimes a boon, not so good when you find yourself stuck in a 24 hour download but I'll give you this one. Especially nice to not have to get patch diskettes mailed to you to continue playing.
Ok, I was messing with you a bit, of course there's been improvements in some aspects of MMORPG that make gaming more pleasant and fun. But they threw out the baby with the bathwater and there are many cool mechanics discarded that the early game had and many of us enjoyed, and, no, its not all nostaligia. Most gamers today don't even have a clue what they missed.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What it comes down to is there has been no paradigm shift since WoW. Have there been attempts at some? Yes, but no development compnay has been able to make more than a meager dent in the WoW paradigm, and understand that WoW itself was not a paradigm shift. As I mentioned above WoW is mostly a clone of EQ, yes there are differences, but the fundemenal principals are similar enough that WoW's biggest contribution to the genre can really be distilled down to numbers. WoW made the MMO mainstream in a way that no other MMO had.
What would constitute a paradigm shift? Games that changed the fundementals in some way. I have argued forever that MMO's need to focus not on "end-game" any longer, but truly shifting the game to something different. DnD was created out of war games, they took the concept of the little minitures and said, how do we do this with a single character instead of an army? Perhaps it is time for MMO's to start asking how do we do this with an Army instead of a single character.
Heroic progression (and by and large MMO's focus on heroes or heroic actions) in most tales usually follows a path of "rise of the hero", "hero saves the world (somtimes multiple times)", "Epilogue: Hero grows up and shapes the new world". So far MMO's have only shown our rise to heroic status and saving the world. They have yet to take the next logical step.
Of course another Paradigm shift would be to simply not focus on the heroic at all, some programs have tried this, but very few of them have the feel of an actual game, and that's the tricky part - making a game out of the more mundane.
EVE, DarkFall etc is doing their own innovation. Despite the half-done-feature of CCP, there are plenty of innovation (it just lacks polish) from when it first launched.
Whether the changes are suited to your personal taste is another issue, but to say the genre hasn't moved forward for the past 7 years is wrong.
I'm sorry... did you just use WoW and innovative in the same sentence? Things may have been added to WoW, but they weren't new.
BGs aren't new.
Phasing isn't new to WoW
Difficulty settings aren't new
in game cinematics aren't new
A lot of new stuff was first seen in Blizzard's game: phasing was never done before. LotRO did it
The same for cross server dungeons FTP MMOs did it, cross server BG's, FTP MMOs did it scaled raid content games have been doing that since 2001, e-sports arena with a PvP rating system MMOs have been doing that since 1999.
And what about seamless open continents without loading screens or chunneling MMOs have had that since 1998. Smooth background loading was never achieved either by the competition Again, MMOs have had that since 1998.
But I think the most innovative thing found in WOW is their incredible responsiveness in the avatar controls. Not unique to WoW, nor is it an innovation. I don't think you know what innovate means..
7 years and never seen anything even remotely comparable for an MMORPG. All the rest plays like puppets on strings.. Probably because you've only played WoW clones, and not good MMOs.
This is why you WoW fanboys need to do a little research before you spout stuff like this.
How much have they really changed since EQ was the mmo standard?
WoW didn't really bring anything new to the table really.
That really depends on which elements you focus on. To me WoW brought great progress since it improved the game elements I cared about. If teh progress is in areas you really do not care about it, you will not notice it or simply discount it.
So... you think WoW made progress because it... made MMOs smaller, more linear, and more single player?... why did you like MMos in the first place?
How much have they really changed since EQ was the mmo standard?
WoW didn't really bring anything new to the table really.
That really depends on which elements you focus on. To me WoW brought great progress since it improved the game elements I cared about. If teh progress is in areas you really do not care about it, you will not notice it or simply discount it.
So... you think WoW made progress because it... made MMOs smaller, more linear, and more single player?... why did you like MMos in the first place?
For me it made MMORPGs more expansive and accessible. I got to explore and access more of the game than I could in SWG or EVE. It caused me to be more immersed in my characters. Before WoW, MMORPGs for me were starting to feel more and more stale and I was playing them for shorter and shorter lengths of time. WoW brought a fresh way to play these games and got me hooked again on the format.
Beyond that, I can't think of anything truly innovative.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
When did formal achievement systems first start popping up in MMOs? They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think they count as something that became popular only a couple of years ago.
What about phasing as a way to show more visible plot progression, stealth instancing or to hide secret islands? That's popping up all over the place.
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Maybe, but there have been many great games duringthe years of computer gaming and most games older than 5 years are just gone.
The truth is that there was some parts that the old games did better, while others were worse than the stuff we have today.
For one thing were the gameworlds generally a lot larger in the old games. And they were a lot more social. Waiting time on the other hand could be insane and most of those old games were really buggy and rather badly coded.
Some MMO devs should truly re evaluate all the features we seen both in old and new games, and then add some fun stuff from pen and paper RPGs as well adn merge that into a game.
I for one miss stuff like a really dark night where you actually had to use torches, it added a lot to the mood. Now darkness just doesn't exist. Also in the old games there were often a very different thingto be in a zone at the day from at night.
My point anyways is that just because those games isn't around anymore or have a few nostalgic players doesn't mean that todays games made everything better. In some cases have they cut out really good stuff.
It'd simple, Games were always released either too early(unfinished), with too litle content, broken game mechanics, or a mixture of all 3.
I can't recall a mmo between WoW and now that is as polished and fun as WoW. Blizzard grew each patch and revision to a game that cannot be matched unless a developer goes balls to the wall in terms of content and quality.
Fortunately Guild Wars 2 is comming out soon and it will definately steal a lot of WoW's limelight. It boasts a hige world, Awesome gameplay, and excellent replayability throuought the different classes, and most assuradely an engame PVP that will be as fun as GW1.
And SWTOR.
Between the 2 2011 will be the year WoW gets hurt bigtime.
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Maybe, but there have been many great games duringthe years of computer gaming and most games older than 5 years are just gone.
The truth is that there was some parts that the old games did better, while others were worse than the stuff we have today.
For one thing were the gameworlds generally a lot larger in the old games. And they were a lot more social. Waiting time on the other hand could be insane and most of those old games were really buggy and rather badly coded.
Some MMO devs should truly re evaluate all the features we seen both in old and new games, and then add some fun stuff from pen and paper RPGs as well adn merge that into a game.
I for one miss stuff like a really dark night where you actually had to use torches, it added a lot to the mood. Now darkness just doesn't exist. Also in the old games there were often a very different thingto be in a zone at the day from at night.
My point anyways is that just because those games isn't around anymore or have a few nostalgic players doesn't mean that todays games made everything better. In some cases have they cut out really good stuff.
And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again. I've had fun with new games and old games. To say games haven't advanced in the last seven years is ludicrous. The technological advances alone are mindnumbing.
If you tried to tell me this:
Would one day be this:
I would have calmly explain where you could go, how you could get there and what you could do to yourself.
Larger isn't always better, heck game worlds seem much more expansive today than before, UO could have been huge but I rarely was wow'd by it. I have played some modern games and the vistas were "oh neat" moments. Plus travel speed was much slower, it made everything a hike.
Dark night isn't a game breaker, turn down your contrast.
The old games are gone for a reason. Bitching endlessly about new games sucking does nothing, as a matter of fact the constant complaints from the same sources over and over lead me to believe they need a new hobby, maybe retro gaming? Because it's to the point where I believe mental illness has set in for some of them.
A handful of people wishing to live in some sort of 8-bit ivory tower does not make the world. Me, I enjoyed games then, I enjoy them now, when I stop having fun I'll stop playing them. Some people have it set in their heart to be wretched.
EVE, DarkFall etc is doing their own innovation. Despite the half-done-feature of CCP, there are plenty of innovation (it just lacks polish) from when it first launched.
Whether the changes are suited to your personal taste is another issue, but to say the genre hasn't moved forward for the past 7 years is wrong.
I'm sorry... did you just use WoW and innovative in the same sentence? Things may have been added to WoW, but they weren't new.
BGs aren't new.
Phasing isn't new to WoW
Difficulty settings aren't new
in game cinematics aren't new
Eve is of course an innovative game, but that is the exception, not the rule, same with Darkfall. These indie games innovative, and they can keep innovating all they want, but so long as mainstream MMOs ignore those innovations... no we haven't progressed, we've regressed.
While it might be 'cool' to bash a popular game to say WoW hasn't innovative the MMO genre is being very short sighted.
You really think we would have as many MMOs and investments in MMO if WoW didn't exists?
I'll give you that certain mechanics might have been done elsewhere but WoW is the only one that I can think of that does a lot of stuff with polish and execution.
Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong.
What I really don't get about the WoW-hate is this; I love MMOs and I want more people to play them. WoW did that more than any MMO on the market. So why the WoW-hate?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
There's so little of anything new that even websites like MMORPG.com which used to be be fun to read are becoming boring as well because every subject has been rehashed time and again and there is nothing really new to talk about.
I'm almost hoping someone makes a titty slider thread or why men play female avatar threads...but I know it's only desperation on my part. The fact is this genre feels as if it's in the shitter.
Back when Precu SWG released I was blown away. I used to imagine what games would be like years down the road, but little did I realize the genre would stagnate as it has. Oh well...I have other hobbies but it's just a disappointment because the possibilites at the time had seemed endless, where as now they seem hopeless.
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.
Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).
I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.
So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.
And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again.
Yes? I did say no such thing, I said some old game had some features right, nothing else. I also said some old games were really fun but not that old games were good.
Please don't try to read things like that from me, or perhaps you replied to the wrong post?
Anyone saying everything about new "X" sucks, old "X" are in every way superior is an old geezer far from reality, no matter of the subject. But everyone saying the opposite is just as bad, far from all old stuff is bad.
And you don't have to post pictures comparing old and new games, we know new games looks better.
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.
Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).
I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.
So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.
I'd expect lots more changes and new things to come out when the genre is new and just starting.
Just look at the new things that's coming out for the Iphone/Ipad games. 'lolcasual' all you want but that's the new genre right now and changes are happening rapidly.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.
Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).
I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.
So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.
I'd expect lots more changes and new things to come out when the genre is new and just starting.
Just look at the new things that's coming out for the Iphone/Ipad games. 'lolcasual' all you want but that's the new genre right now and changes are happening rapidly.
while the technology of gaming has definitely evolved - graphically as well as sound, perhaps its because we as players havent evolved, we're still looking for the same kinds of 'thrills' that we were having when we first started playing.. its not so much new concepts in gaming that are required imo, but improved implementation of the ones we've already got..
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.
Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).
I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.
So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.
So you're saying add "small innovation isn't innovation" to the list of ways the community is plugging its ears? (Well this is already covered by the first bullet, I suppose.)
As for innovation slowing within a certain realm, isn't that just an obvious trait of innovation? I mean...the first 10-50 years of the automobile industry were huge! You certainly don't see that level of innovation happening nowadays. Nevertheless people understand that it'd be silly to complain of such things -- especially since innovation still happens at a steady pace (in cars as well as MMORPGs.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again.
Yes? I did say no such thing, I said some old game had some features right, nothing else. I also said some old games were really fun but not that old games were good.
Please don't try to read things like that from me, or perhaps you replied to the wrong post?
Anyone saying everything about new "X" sucks, old "X" are in every way superior is an old geezer far from reality, no matter of the subject. But everyone saying the opposite is just as bad, far from all old stuff is bad.
And you don't have to post pictures comparing old and new games, we know new games looks better.
I posted pictures because a lot of folks act like gaming has devolved so much it's just a guy sitting in a cave moving various sized rocks about. I replied to the right post, it's the way you come off. But back on track, MMOs have advanced in many ways.
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.
Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).
I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.
So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.
So you're saying add "small innovation isn't innovation" to the list of ways the community is plugging its ears? (Well this is already covered by the first bullet, I suppose.)
As for innovation slowing within a certain realm, isn't that just an obvious trait of innovation? I mean...the first 10-50 years of the automobile industry were huge! You certainly don't see that level of innovation happening nowadays. Nevertheless people understand that it'd be silly to complain of such things -- especially since innovation still happens at a steady pace (in cars as well as MMORPGs.)
Indeed, I agree with everything said here. (Just don't bring up cars! Uh-oh here come the car analogy wars. )
Comments
That really depends on which elements you focus on. To me WoW brought great progress since it improved the game elements I cared about. If teh progress is in areas you really do not care about it, you will not notice it or simply discount it.
Ok, I was messing with you a bit, of course there's been improvements in some aspects of MMORPG that make gaming more pleasant and fun. But they threw out the baby with the bathwater and there are many cool mechanics discarded that the early game had and many of us enjoyed, and, no, its not all nostaligia. Most gamers today don't even have a clue what they missed.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What it comes down to is there has been no paradigm shift since WoW. Have there been attempts at some? Yes, but no development compnay has been able to make more than a meager dent in the WoW paradigm, and understand that WoW itself was not a paradigm shift. As I mentioned above WoW is mostly a clone of EQ, yes there are differences, but the fundemenal principals are similar enough that WoW's biggest contribution to the genre can really be distilled down to numbers. WoW made the MMO mainstream in a way that no other MMO had.
What would constitute a paradigm shift? Games that changed the fundementals in some way. I have argued forever that MMO's need to focus not on "end-game" any longer, but truly shifting the game to something different. DnD was created out of war games, they took the concept of the little minitures and said, how do we do this with a single character instead of an army? Perhaps it is time for MMO's to start asking how do we do this with an Army instead of a single character.
Heroic progression (and by and large MMO's focus on heroes or heroic actions) in most tales usually follows a path of "rise of the hero", "hero saves the world (somtimes multiple times)", "Epilogue: Hero grows up and shapes the new world". So far MMO's have only shown our rise to heroic status and saving the world. They have yet to take the next logical step.
Of course another Paradigm shift would be to simply not focus on the heroic at all, some programs have tried this, but very few of them have the feel of an actual game, and that's the tricky part - making a game out of the more mundane.
This is why you WoW fanboys need to do a little research before you spout stuff like this.
So... you think WoW made progress because it... made MMOs smaller, more linear, and more single player?... why did you like MMos in the first place?
For me it made MMORPGs more expansive and accessible. I got to explore and access more of the game than I could in SWG or EVE. It caused me to be more immersed in my characters. Before WoW, MMORPGs for me were starting to feel more and more stale and I was playing them for shorter and shorter lengths of time. WoW brought a fresh way to play these games and got me hooked again on the format.
I think Auction Houses are pretty cool.
Beyond that, I can't think of anything truly innovative.
When did formal achievement systems first start popping up in MMOs? They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think they count as something that became popular only a couple of years ago.
What about phasing as a way to show more visible plot progression, stealth instancing or to hide secret islands? That's popping up all over the place.
Star Wars Galaxies had auction houses also...
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Maybe, but there have been many great games duringthe years of computer gaming and most games older than 5 years are just gone.
The truth is that there was some parts that the old games did better, while others were worse than the stuff we have today.
For one thing were the gameworlds generally a lot larger in the old games. And they were a lot more social. Waiting time on the other hand could be insane and most of those old games were really buggy and rather badly coded.
Some MMO devs should truly re evaluate all the features we seen both in old and new games, and then add some fun stuff from pen and paper RPGs as well adn merge that into a game.
I for one miss stuff like a really dark night where you actually had to use torches, it added a lot to the mood. Now darkness just doesn't exist. Also in the old games there were often a very different thingto be in a zone at the day from at night.
My point anyways is that just because those games isn't around anymore or have a few nostalgic players doesn't mean that todays games made everything better. In some cases have they cut out really good stuff.
It'd simple, Games were always released either too early(unfinished), with too litle content, broken game mechanics, or a mixture of all 3.
I can't recall a mmo between WoW and now that is as polished and fun as WoW. Blizzard grew each patch and revision to a game that cannot be matched unless a developer goes balls to the wall in terms of content and quality.
Fortunately Guild Wars 2 is comming out soon and it will definately steal a lot of WoW's limelight. It boasts a hige world, Awesome gameplay, and excellent replayability throuought the different classes, and most assuradely an engame PVP that will be as fun as GW1.
And SWTOR.
Between the 2 2011 will be the year WoW gets hurt bigtime.
Guildwars. Yeah, it is a CORPG but it is actually close enough, I played it for 4 years.
But beside that, nothing comes to mind.
And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again. I've had fun with new games and old games. To say games haven't advanced in the last seven years is ludicrous. The technological advances alone are mindnumbing.
If you tried to tell me this:
Would one day be this:
I would have calmly explain where you could go, how you could get there and what you could do to yourself.
Larger isn't always better, heck game worlds seem much more expansive today than before, UO could have been huge but I rarely was wow'd by it. I have played some modern games and the vistas were "oh neat" moments. Plus travel speed was much slower, it made everything a hike.
Dark night isn't a game breaker, turn down your contrast.
The old games are gone for a reason. Bitching endlessly about new games sucking does nothing, as a matter of fact the constant complaints from the same sources over and over lead me to believe they need a new hobby, maybe retro gaming? Because it's to the point where I believe mental illness has set in for some of them.
A handful of people wishing to live in some sort of 8-bit ivory tower does not make the world. Me, I enjoyed games then, I enjoy them now, when I stop having fun I'll stop playing them. Some people have it set in their heart to be wretched.
While it might be 'cool' to bash a popular game to say WoW hasn't innovative the MMO genre is being very short sighted.
You really think we would have as many MMOs and investments in MMO if WoW didn't exists?
I'll give you that certain mechanics might have been done elsewhere but WoW is the only one that I can think of that does a lot of stuff with polish and execution.
Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong.
What I really don't get about the WoW-hate is this; I love MMOs and I want more people to play them. WoW did that more than any MMO on the market. So why the WoW-hate?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
There's so little of anything new that even websites like MMORPG.com which used to be be fun to read are becoming boring as well because every subject has been rehashed time and again and there is nothing really new to talk about.
I'm almost hoping someone makes a titty slider thread or why men play female avatar threads...but I know it's only desperation on my part. The fact is this genre feels as if it's in the shitter.
Back when Precu SWG released I was blown away. I used to imagine what games would be like years down the road, but little did I realize the genre would stagnate as it has. Oh well...I have other hobbies but it's just a disappointment because the possibilites at the time had seemed endless, where as now they seem hopeless.
This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.
Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X? That wasn't really innovative.'
Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:
if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.
No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.
Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).
I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.
So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.
i think they have only defined themself atm... from now on i think we will see progression.
the best way to kill a troll is to FLAME ON! ...or with acid...
Yes? I did say no such thing, I said some old game had some features right, nothing else. I also said some old games were really fun but not that old games were good.
Please don't try to read things like that from me, or perhaps you replied to the wrong post?
Anyone saying everything about new "X" sucks, old "X" are in every way superior is an old geezer far from reality, no matter of the subject. But everyone saying the opposite is just as bad, far from all old stuff is bad.
And you don't have to post pictures comparing old and new games, we know new games looks better.
I'd expect lots more changes and new things to come out when the genre is new and just starting.
Just look at the new things that's coming out for the Iphone/Ipad games. 'lolcasual' all you want but that's the new genre right now and changes are happening rapidly.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
while the technology of gaming has definitely evolved - graphically as well as sound, perhaps its because we as players havent evolved, we're still looking for the same kinds of 'thrills' that we were having when we first started playing.. its not so much new concepts in gaming that are required imo, but improved implementation of the ones we've already got..
So you're saying add "small innovation isn't innovation" to the list of ways the community is plugging its ears? (Well this is already covered by the first bullet, I suppose.)
As for innovation slowing within a certain realm, isn't that just an obvious trait of innovation? I mean...the first 10-50 years of the automobile industry were huge! You certainly don't see that level of innovation happening nowadays. Nevertheless people understand that it'd be silly to complain of such things -- especially since innovation still happens at a steady pace (in cars as well as MMORPGs.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I posted pictures because a lot of folks act like gaming has devolved so much it's just a guy sitting in a cave moving various sized rocks about. I replied to the right post, it's the way you come off. But back on track, MMOs have advanced in many ways.
Indeed, I agree with everything said here. (Just don't bring up cars! Uh-oh here come the car analogy wars.
)