How much have they really changed since EQ was the mmo standard?
WoW didn't really bring anything new to the table really.
That really depends on which elements you focus on. To me WoW brought great progress since it improved the game elements I cared about. If teh progress is in areas you really do not care about it, you will not notice it or simply discount it.
So... you think WoW made progress because it... made MMOs smaller, more linear, and more single player?... why did you like MMos in the first place?
For me it made MMORPGs more expansive and accessible. Yes... to people who didn't like MMORPGs. To those that DID like MMORPGs... it took the game away from us. I got to explore and access more of the game than I could in SWG or EVE. What does that have to do with anything WoW did? It caused me to be more immersed in my characters. HAHA really? The floating !! over every NPC, the boring fetch quests, the instancing, that was immersive? Before WoW, MMORPGs for me were starting to feel more and more stale and I was playing them for shorter and shorter lengths of time. WoW brought a fresh way to play these games and got me hooked again on the format. Uh... How exactly?
I'm starting to think this is all we've talked about for seven years. Of course games have changed over the years.
Right. They've added random mob spawns and more "bloom" over the years...
Games that are seven years old are available, feel free. Seems small minded to overlook all the advances in MMOs to seem superior on a forum.
The old MMOs no longer exist. Stop trying to pretend they do. If they did, we'd be playing them.
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Oh good freaking LORD I am sick of WoW kiddies like you who came into the market a few years ago trying to tell ME what happened in the MMOs that I PLAYED MYSELF.
The old MMOs are gone for a number of reasons, none of them being "because they sucked". IF they sucked, they wouldn't have been such big successes when they came out. Many old MMOs have been patched or changed by bad developer decisions or expansions that take the game away from what it was originally. That's what happened with DAoC. That's what happened with UO, that's what happened with SWG. Others, simply aren't developed for anymore because the developers that made them tried to make sequels that were more like WoW, and that failed. That's what happened with Anarchy Online. That's what happened with Asheron's Call. That's what happened with Warhammer.
So please, stop speaking down to me and pretending you know better. If Dark Age of Camelot had a classic server set to before the game started crashing (2002) or there was a pre NGE SWG, you'd bet people would be playing them.
EVE, DarkFall etc is doing their own innovation. Despite the half-done-feature of CCP, there are plenty of innovation (it just lacks polish) from when it first launched.
Whether the changes are suited to your personal taste is another issue, but to say the genre hasn't moved forward for the past 7 years is wrong.
I'm sorry... did you just use WoW and innovative in the same sentence? Things may have been added to WoW, but they weren't new.
BGs aren't new.
Phasing isn't new to WoW
Difficulty settings aren't new
in game cinematics aren't new
Eve is of course an innovative game, but that is the exception, not the rule, same with Darkfall. These indie games innovative, and they can keep innovating all they want, but so long as mainstream MMOs ignore those innovations... no we haven't progressed, we've regressed.
While it might be 'cool' to bash a popular game to say WoW hasn't innovative the MMO genre is being very short sighted.
You really think we would have as many MMOs and investments in MMO if WoW didn't exists? That's not innovation, that's success. Success isn't a new idea.
I'll give you that certain mechanics might have been done elsewhere but WoW is the only one that I can think of that does a lot of stuff with polish and execution. Incorrect, you've probably only played WoW or its rushed clones. Many MMos in the past had polish and executed their gameplay mechanics well. And "polish" isn't an innovation, its a product of having a massive team and budget, and time.
Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong. Incorrect. The only new idea to come out of MMOs in the last 7 years is public quests, and even that wasn't much a new idea, or of expanding on an old idea that had been around since the 90s. If WoW is so innovative, name a feature. I'll tell you what game had it first..
What I really don't get about the WoW-hate is this; I love MMOs and I want more people to play them. WoW did that more than any MMO on the market. So why the WoW-hate? Because WoW is not really an MMO in the classic sense, it's a glorified single player game. It appeals to an entire different audience than those that played MMOs before WoW. So for those millions of pre WoW MMO players, not only is the genre we love gone, and the games we loved gone, but no new games are being made, just the same single MMO being made over and over again with little to no success. If WoW had birthed a Silver age of new ideas and new MMOs, that would be one thing, but it spawned a dark age of MMOs with less and less and less and less features than games 10 years older had..
The only real progress we've seen is graphics. I can't even argue games are coded better, because MMOs from 2001 could have 500 man sieges with castles falling apart and naval combat, but now modern MMOs struggle with 30 people. Except for, again, the indie titles.
I have to say no. Nowadays you got f2p handholding clones, very linear. Hardly any pvp oriented games. No full loot. Very carebear communitys took over the genre.
Games like Neocron had player housing and sandbox elements and thats like 10years ago . There was none of those cute hello kitty online type games back then. I think the genre is failing big time. Have not found a good mmo since Neocron and wwIIonline down in 2006. Half a decade passed and there is nothing but garbage out there. Even Black Propecy is crappy.
There is no teamwork anymore, no exploration. No fps/rpg hybrids. Nothing but point and click faggotry is being done nowadays. I was suprised by Mars Wars but its a planetside clone. Sometimes it feels like i am ready to die as i have played the best games that were ever made. You had to be there on the Pluto server in 2002 up until 2006. You needed hackers, reppers, pokers, recyclers, you needed 4 hackers just for an opfight and thats not counting the 20-30 fighters needed as well. You had to get into a clan, teamwork was the key. You had to make contacts, and trust the right people. Scamming was legit, it was a role.
Nowadays you got a genre that got hijacked by carebears and solo oriented players. And this is where the genre fails , they dont force teamwork anymore and you got all these people ruining the genre by turning massive multiplayer games into solo games. This completely destroyed the genre and obviously the devs have always bended over to their demand, turning things casual.
The reality is that 10 years ago games had more depth. Even single player games were less linear (system shock 2 vs dead space 2). Nothing has changed except graphics. Now you got bad games with awesome graphics. Obviously gameplay was forgotten, as well as immersion.
I have pretty much lost any hope into gaming since this genre is turning into a casual carebear hand holding fest. Maybe Neocron3 if it ever gets done. I will obviously try SWTOR and try and have some fun.
I am a twitch player, point and click offers no challenge and is a real boredom. Eve online is the only hardcore game out there and it has very little roles to play and point and click is not very appealing for a twitch gamer. If anyone has a suggestion id be glad to hear it.
I'm starting to think this is all we've talked about for seven years. Of course games have changed over the years.
Right. They've added random mob spawns and more "bloom" over the years...
Games that are seven years old are available, feel free. Seems small minded to overlook all the advances in MMOs to seem superior on a forum.
The old MMOs no longer exist. Stop trying to pretend they do. If they did, we'd be playing them.
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Oh good freaking LORD I am sick of WoW kiddies like you who came into the market a few years ago trying to tell ME what happened in the MMOs that I PLAYED MYSELF.
The old MMOs are gone for a number of reasons, none of them being "because they sucked". IF they sucked, they wouldn't have been such big successes when they came out. Many old MMOs have been patched or changed by bad developer decisions or expansions that take the game away from what it was originally. That's what happened with DAoC. That's what happened with UO, that's what happened with SWG. Others, simply aren't developed for anymore because the developers that made them tried to make sequels that were more like WoW, and that failed. That's what happened with Anarchy Online. That's what happened with Asheron's Call. That's what happened with Warhammer.
So please, stop speaking down to me and pretending you know better. If Dark Age of Camelot had a classic server set to before the game started crashing (2002) or there was a pre NGE SWG, you'd bet people would be playing them.
I'm 39, that makes your caps lock irrelevant. You're arguing against yourself and in circles in a vain attempt to win the internets. The fact is if a superior game was about it would still be about. You claim there is none then cite examples. I'm not sure what you want, but I think it's to wallow in some sort of self-induced misery. Or maybe it's to be the great forum warrior from the wasteland, back to clean up town. Or a little of both?
I'd like a really good Sci-fi MMO to come out (didn't play Anarchy Online, but something sort of like that). Why is everyone so focused on..literally..Dwarves, Humans, Elves as everything. Get's a little boring. You can thank Blizzard for mainstreaming the genre. Now who is to blame for all the shit music out today?
Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong. Incorrect. The only new idea to come out of MMOs in the last 7 years is public quests, and even that wasn't much a new idea, or of expanding on an old idea that had been around since the 90s. If WoW is so innovative, name a feature. I'll tell you what game had it first..
You seem to enjoy contradicting yourself. Re-read the quote above on what you wrote and think why I would say so.
So what did we get during the last 7 years?
Phasing (LoTRO was released April - 2007)
Public Quests
BGs
Difficulty Settings
How you define what is an MMO and what is not an MMO is irrelevant since the vast majority of players consider WoW an MMO.
Capitalism and free market is working as intended.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'm starting to think this is all we've talked about for seven years. Of course games have changed over the years.
Right. They've added random mob spawns and more "bloom" over the years...
Games that are seven years old are available, feel free. Seems small minded to overlook all the advances in MMOs to seem superior on a forum.
The old MMOs no longer exist. Stop trying to pretend they do. If they did, we'd be playing them.
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Oh good freaking LORD I am sick of WoW kiddies like you who came into the market a few years ago trying to tell ME what happened in the MMOs that I PLAYED MYSELF.
The old MMOs are gone for a number of reasons, none of them being "because they sucked". IF they sucked, they wouldn't have been such big successes when they came out. Many old MMOs have been patched or changed by bad developer decisions or expansions that take the game away from what it was originally. That's what happened with DAoC. That's what happened with UO, that's what happened with SWG. Others, simply aren't developed for anymore because the developers that made them tried to make sequels that were more like WoW, and that failed. That's what happened with Anarchy Online. That's what happened with Asheron's Call. That's what happened with Warhammer.
So please, stop speaking down to me and pretending you know better. If Dark Age of Camelot had a classic server set to before the game started crashing (2002) or there was a pre NGE SWG, you'd bet people would be playing them.
I'm 39, that makes your caps lock irrelevant. You're arguing against yourself and in circles in a vain attempt to win the internets. The fact is if a superior game was about it would still be about. You claim there is none then cite examples. I'm not sure what you want, but I think it's to wallow in some sort of self-induced misery. Or maybe it's to be the great forum warrior from the wasteland, back to clean up town. Or a little of both?
Its really funny because he could have just clicked on your name to see that you aren't a WoW kiddie. It just goes to show you that its always best to do your homework before you make a fool of yourself.
And I agree with the idea that older MMOG's sucked compared to the newer ones. The just seemed cooler at the time.
You really think we would have as many MMOs and investments in MMO if WoW didn't exists? That's not innovation, that's success. Success isn't a new idea.
I thought the topic was about "progress" rather than "innovation". Creating a new way to earn a buck is innovation. Earning a million bucks that way is progress.
The public stress testing (off and on) of WoW began in early 2004.
2004: WoW
(all the games inbetween that tried to appeal to WoW's market)
2011: WoW
Why is it that all new MMORPGs are always measured (even before they are released) in how similar they are to WoW?
One answer, "too similar to WoW" comes to mind, because who still wants to play that?. It also means your average MMO gamer will eventually go crawling back to WoW anyways, especially if the new game is deemed incomeplete or unpolished; or won't want to waste their time (Why start all over there when I can already play WoW?)
In earlier years, I never felt as though one MMO was similar to another. Not once did I find AO similar to DAOC, or SWG similar to either of those. They all felt fresh and very different than any previous MMO I had played, and there was never any feeling that the game was designed specifically to appeal to a sudden market boom focused around another competing game.
After all these years, It would be nice to have a new game that offers a deeper, more rewarding, and challenging experience. A mmorpg without training wheels, one where not every player is a winner and requires one to do more than press a button to effortlessly get gear.
I agree completely, why the hell do developers bother trying to cater to one specific type of player by creating the same kind of gameplay thats already on the market? it's not what we the players want or we'd all be playign the one same game, it's not smart business either as proven by all the variations on the market currently through their sub numbers and being closed down or changed to "pay to win" (FTP).
At present there are 2 MMOs that are stable, WoW (simplistic yuck in my personal opinion) and EvE (not interested), back in early/mid 2005 SWG was in a state where it would have been on the list also but the devs decided to go the way of "stupid business" and change the game to be just like the others. Now i'm not discounting some other games which people enjoy playing but how long will it be until they get bored of them and begin the search again or return to a previous game?
WoW is a good game for those that want that type of game, but what about variation? large portions of the MMORPG community were seperated between WoW and SWG back in early/mid 2005, those were the 2 main games you'd hear the most, one of them was changed to cater for the WoW type of players and look what happened, bang went about 70%+ of it's subscribers because those were the people who prefered the difference. I've use SWG in this post not only because i was one of those Pre-NGE players but because nothing on the market today or even planned comes close to SWG pre-NGE in terms of gameplay and mechanics.
If a company truelly wants to make some decent money from an MMO they need to start thinking of those that don't want simplified games as well, there's a huge portion of players out there that are just waiting for a complex MMORPG to come out, by complex i'm referring to a complex crafting system, skill boxes with loads of combinations to use and TRUE player run economy where the crafters don't just make the best items but are actually the only worth while source for items.
I've said it many times in various threads similar to this, if a company wants to hold any weight and longevity in this day and age it needs to scrap the foundations that WoW is built on and make something that will appeal to those from Pre-NGE SWG (the type of playstyle these people and most likely others enjoyed, not a "clone" of it)
At present there are 2 MMOs that are stable, WoW (simplistic yuck in my personal opinion) and EvE (not interested), back in early/mid 2005 SWG was in a state where it would have been on the list also but the devs decided to go the way of "stupid business" and change the game to be just like the others. Now i'm not discounting some other games which people enjoy playing but how long will it be until they get bored of them and begin the search again or return to a previous game?
WoW is a good game for those that want that type of game, but what about variation? large portions of the MMORPG community were seperated between WoW and SWG back in early/mid 2005, those were the 2 main games you'd hear the most, one of them was changed to cater for the WoW type of players and look what happened, bang went about 70%+ of it's subscribers because those were the people who prefered the difference. I've use SWG in this post not only because i was one of those Pre-NGE players but because nothing on the market today or even planned comes close to SWG pre-NGE in terms of gameplay and mechanics.
SWG was in no way a 'stable game' pre-CU. When I joined the game abotu four months after its release they just barely finished issues that should have been fixed at release. The early players were outgrowing the content and were looking for something else to do. The game was imploding montsh before WoW even came out. Player cities were becoming urban wastelands and very devoted players were leaving. The Jedi Holocron fiasco proved that SOE did not know what they were doing with the game.
At present there are 2 MMOs that are stable, WoW (simplistic yuck in my personal opinion) and EvE (not interested), back in early/mid 2005 SWG was in a state where it would have been on the list also but the devs decided to go the way of "stupid business" and change the game to be just like the others. Now i'm not discounting some other games which people enjoy playing but how long will it be until they get bored of them and begin the search again or return to a previous game?
WoW is a good game for those that want that type of game, but what about variation? large portions of the MMORPG community were seperated between WoW and SWG back in early/mid 2005, those were the 2 main games you'd hear the most, one of them was changed to cater for the WoW type of players and look what happened, bang went about 70%+ of it's subscribers because those were the people who prefered the difference. I've use SWG in this post not only because i was one of those Pre-NGE players but because nothing on the market today or even planned comes close to SWG pre-NGE in terms of gameplay and mechanics.
SWG was in no way a 'stable game' pre-CU. When I joined the game abotu four months after its release they just barely finished issues that should have been fixed at release. The early players were outgrowing the content and were looking for something else to do. The game was imploding montsh before WoW even came out. Player cities were becoming urban wastelands and very devoted players were leaving. The Jedi Holocron fiasco proved that SOE did not know what they were doing with the game.
mmorpGs are much better games than they were first conceived.
Features like instances, dungeon finding tools, ability to customize interfaces, battleground, arenas ... make the gaming experience more diverse and more fun.
I'm starting to think this is all we've talked about for seven years. Of course games have changed over the years.
Right. They've added random mob spawns and more "bloom" over the years...
Games that are seven years old are available, feel free. Seems small minded to overlook all the advances in MMOs to seem superior on a forum.
The old MMOs no longer exist. Stop trying to pretend they do. If they did, we'd be playing them.
If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?
Oh good freaking LORD I am sick of WoW kiddies like you who came into the market a few years ago trying to tell ME what happened in the MMOs that I PLAYED MYSELF.
The old MMOs are gone for a number of reasons, none of them being "because they sucked". IF they sucked, they wouldn't have been such big successes when they came out. Many old MMOs have been patched or changed by bad developer decisions or expansions that take the game away from what it was originally. That's what happened with DAoC. That's what happened with UO, that's what happened with SWG. Others, simply aren't developed for anymore because the developers that made them tried to make sequels that were more like WoW, and that failed. That's what happened with Anarchy Online. That's what happened with Asheron's Call. That's what happened with Warhammer.
So please, stop speaking down to me and pretending you know better. If Dark Age of Camelot had a classic server set to before the game started crashing (2002) or there was a pre NGE SWG, you'd bet people would be playing them.
I'm 39, that makes your caps lock irrelevant. You're arguing against yourself and in circles in a vain attempt to win the internets. The fact is if a superior game was about it would still be about. You claim there is none then cite examples. I'm not sure what you want, but I think it's to wallow in some sort of self-induced misery. Or maybe it's to be the great forum warrior from the wasteland, back to clean up town. Or a little of both?
Yes, because its unheard of for good things not to get noticed by the mass public. I mean, FIrefly was such a horrible show, it deserved to be cancelled. But Jersey Shore, now THAT'S quality!
Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong. Incorrect. The only new idea to come out of MMOs in the last 7 years is public quests, and even that wasn't much a new idea, or of expanding on an old idea that had been around since the 90s. If WoW is so innovative, name a feature. I'll tell you what game had it first..
You seem to enjoy contradicting yourself. Re-read the quote above on what you wrote and think why I would say so.
So what did we get during the last 7 years?
Phasing (LoTRO was released April - 2007) - Just an extention of instancing, which has been around forever, slightly innovative, but not much, nor is it really a good feature for MMOs.
Public Quests Yes I mentioned those, again more of an extension of an old idea that many MMOs were already using.
BGs These were around a LOT longer than 7 years ago.
Difficulty Settings As were difficulty settings.
How you define what is an MMO and what is not an MMO is irrelevant since the vast majority of players consider WoW an MMO.
Capitalism and free market is working as intended.
So by your logic... if more people use the word 'irony' incorrectly than use it the right way... the people who use it the right way are now wrong? If a lot of people say that we breathe aurem instead of oxygen, it makes the people who say we breathe oxygen wrong?
And wow, 7 years and the hundreds of MMOs that have come out have come up with... 2 features! Wow! What an acomplishment! We should be proud of this FLOURISHING industry.
mmorpGs are much better games than they were first conceived.
Features like instances, dungeon finding tools, ability to customize interfaces, battleground, arenas ... make the gaming experience more diverse and more fun.
More DIVERSE? No, we had dungeons and battlegrounds and arenas in 2001, nothing new there.
More FUN? Maybe for people who don't like MMORPGs. For peple that would rather play a game like Diablo than EverQuest.
MMOs today have less features than MMOs of yesterday. That is the opposite of progress.
Everything I did in yesterday's games I can do in today games and games today give me more options in how I choose to play. I can group much easier than in old games, solo much easier than in old games, and flight is far more common, as are housing systems of some kind.
I think games today have progressed. Progress doesn't just mean something new. Progress also means how relevant or widespread something has become. Flight was in 1 game back in the day, now it's common. Thats progress. Being able to choose how you want to play easier, thats progress. More games having housing, thats progress.
More styles of games on the market, thats progress.
Venge
edit - it also means things being done a different way. Instancing is first developed, lotro retools it to phasing, WoW retools it to include large geographical areas. Thats progress.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Everything I did in yesterday's games I can do in today games and games today give me more options in how I choose to play. Can you... make a living crafting and peddling your wares from place to place? Can you collect items and trophies to decorate your house? Can you place items in the world for other players to find and use? Can you have massive 500 man battles with siege engines and naval combat, with towers and keeps falling apart? Can you build a village wherever you want and develop a community? Can you go into a random dungeon and find a new group of people and become buddies with them? Can you just group up with some folks and explore and kill what you see and level at a reasonable rate? Can I talk to random NPCs until I find a quest that sends me on a far flung journey without holding my hand the whole way through? Can I enter a persistent battleground with a constant war over a central keep? Can I customize my class with endless combinations of skills? Can I fight raids with however many people I want against a dynamic AI that scales its tactics? Cause you could do all that in old games, and you can't do any of that in modern MMOs like WoW. I can group much easier than in old games except that grouping is pretty much exclusive to people you already know, because the game mechanics don't actually encourage grouping, solo much easier than in old games and that's a good thing in a game about socializing and multiplayer? there aren't more options, soloing is the only real option now, and flight is far more common um... how?, as are housing systems of some kind Not true, just about every old MMO had housing, just about every new MMO DOESN'T have housing..
I think games today have progressed. Progress doesn't just mean something new. Progress also means how relevant or widespread something has become. That is probably the worst definition of progress I've seen in this thread yet. Generally, progress refers to new ideas, expanding, building, moving forward. MMOs have been getting smaller, have less features, have less diversity, appeal to less demographics of players, has less innovation and creativity... that isn't progress.. Flight was in 1 game back in the day, now it's common. Thats progress. Being able to choose how you want to play easier, thats progress.
More styles of games on the market, thats progress. There aren't more styles of games, there's one game, and all of its clones. WoW. That's not progress.
Originally posted by Garvon3 Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Garvon3
Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong. Incorrect. The only new idea to come out of MMOs in the last 7 years is public quests, and even that wasn't much a new idea, or of expanding on an old idea that had been around since the 90s. If WoW is so innovative, name a feature. I'll tell you what game had it first..
You seem to enjoy contradicting yourself. Re-read the quote above on what you wrote and think why I would say so. So what did we get during the last 7 years? Phasing (LoTRO was released April - 2007) - Just an extention of instancing, which has been around forever, slightly innovative, but not much, nor is it really a good feature for MMOs. Public Quests Yes I mentioned those, again more of an extension of an old idea that many MMOs were already using. BGs These were around a LOT longer than 7 years ago. Difficulty Settings As were difficulty settings. How you define what is an MMO and what is not an MMO is irrelevant since the vast majority of players consider WoW an MMO. Capitalism and free market is working as intended. So by your logic... if more people use the word 'irony' incorrectly than use it the right way... the people who use it the right way are now wrong? If a lot of people say that we breathe aurem instead of oxygen, it makes the people who say we breathe oxygen wrong? And wow, 7 years and the hundreds of MMOs that have come out have come up with... 2 features! Wow! What an acomplishment! We should be proud of this FLOURISHING industry.
The industry has to prove that it can actually make money before you get all those innovations. Developing mmorpg isn't free you know.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The industry has to prove that it can actually make money before you get all those innovations. Developing mmorpg isn't free you know.
How much money do they have to make though? It seems like every game launched is trying to hit WoW numbers and that's just not realistic.
Right... Lizardbones, what about all the MMos of the Golden Age that were pumping out innovations like it was there job, despite the fact that it really wasn't clear if they'd make money on it?
Comments
They progressed on the technical side.
Those were in MMOs way over 7 years ago. As for chievements, also before WoW.
Oh good freaking LORD I am sick of WoW kiddies like you who came into the market a few years ago trying to tell ME what happened in the MMOs that I PLAYED MYSELF.
The old MMOs are gone for a number of reasons, none of them being "because they sucked". IF they sucked, they wouldn't have been such big successes when they came out. Many old MMOs have been patched or changed by bad developer decisions or expansions that take the game away from what it was originally. That's what happened with DAoC. That's what happened with UO, that's what happened with SWG. Others, simply aren't developed for anymore because the developers that made them tried to make sequels that were more like WoW, and that failed. That's what happened with Anarchy Online. That's what happened with Asheron's Call. That's what happened with Warhammer.
So please, stop speaking down to me and pretending you know better. If Dark Age of Camelot had a classic server set to before the game started crashing (2002) or there was a pre NGE SWG, you'd bet people would be playing them.
I have to say no. Nowadays you got f2p handholding clones, very linear. Hardly any pvp oriented games. No full loot. Very carebear communitys took over the genre.
Games like Neocron had player housing and sandbox elements and thats like 10years ago . There was none of those cute hello kitty online type games back then. I think the genre is failing big time. Have not found a good mmo since Neocron and wwIIonline down in 2006. Half a decade passed and there is nothing but garbage out there. Even Black Propecy is crappy.
There is no teamwork anymore, no exploration. No fps/rpg hybrids. Nothing but point and click faggotry is being done nowadays. I was suprised by Mars Wars but its a planetside clone. Sometimes it feels like i am ready to die as i have played the best games that were ever made. You had to be there on the Pluto server in 2002 up until 2006. You needed hackers, reppers, pokers, recyclers, you needed 4 hackers just for an opfight and thats not counting the 20-30 fighters needed as well. You had to get into a clan, teamwork was the key. You had to make contacts, and trust the right people. Scamming was legit, it was a role.
Nowadays you got a genre that got hijacked by carebears and solo oriented players. And this is where the genre fails , they dont force teamwork anymore and you got all these people ruining the genre by turning massive multiplayer games into solo games. This completely destroyed the genre and obviously the devs have always bended over to their demand, turning things casual.
The reality is that 10 years ago games had more depth. Even single player games were less linear (system shock 2 vs dead space 2). Nothing has changed except graphics. Now you got bad games with awesome graphics. Obviously gameplay was forgotten, as well as immersion.
I have pretty much lost any hope into gaming since this genre is turning into a casual carebear hand holding fest. Maybe Neocron3 if it ever gets done. I will obviously try SWTOR and try and have some fun.
I am a twitch player, point and click offers no challenge and is a real boredom. Eve online is the only hardcore game out there and it has very little roles to play and point and click is not very appealing for a twitch gamer. If anyone has a suggestion id be glad to hear it.
S!
I'm 39, that makes your caps lock irrelevant. You're arguing against yourself and in circles in a vain attempt to win the internets. The fact is if a superior game was about it would still be about. You claim there is none then cite examples. I'm not sure what you want, but I think it's to wallow in some sort of self-induced misery. Or maybe it's to be the great forum warrior from the wasteland, back to clean up town. Or a little of both?
I'd like a really good Sci-fi MMO to come out (didn't play Anarchy Online, but something sort of like that). Why is everyone so focused on..literally..Dwarves, Humans, Elves as everything. Get's a little boring. You can thank Blizzard for mainstreaming the genre. Now who is to blame for all the shit music out today?
Need anyone in this hobby really ask that question?
You seem to enjoy contradicting yourself. Re-read the quote above on what you wrote and think why I would say so.
So what did we get during the last 7 years?
Phasing (LoTRO was released April - 2007)
Public Quests
BGs
Difficulty Settings
How you define what is an MMO and what is not an MMO is irrelevant since the vast majority of players consider WoW an MMO.
Capitalism and free market is working as intended.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Its really funny because he could have just clicked on your name to see that you aren't a WoW kiddie. It just goes to show you that its always best to do your homework before you make a fool of yourself.
And I agree with the idea that older MMOG's sucked compared to the newer ones. The just seemed cooler at the time.
I thought the topic was about "progress" rather than "innovation". Creating a new way to earn a buck is innovation. Earning a million bucks that way is progress.
I agree completely, why the hell do developers bother trying to cater to one specific type of player by creating the same kind of gameplay thats already on the market? it's not what we the players want or we'd all be playign the one same game, it's not smart business either as proven by all the variations on the market currently through their sub numbers and being closed down or changed to "pay to win" (FTP).
At present there are 2 MMOs that are stable, WoW (simplistic yuck in my personal opinion) and EvE (not interested), back in early/mid 2005 SWG was in a state where it would have been on the list also but the devs decided to go the way of "stupid business" and change the game to be just like the others. Now i'm not discounting some other games which people enjoy playing but how long will it be until they get bored of them and begin the search again or return to a previous game?
WoW is a good game for those that want that type of game, but what about variation? large portions of the MMORPG community were seperated between WoW and SWG back in early/mid 2005, those were the 2 main games you'd hear the most, one of them was changed to cater for the WoW type of players and look what happened, bang went about 70%+ of it's subscribers because those were the people who prefered the difference. I've use SWG in this post not only because i was one of those Pre-NGE players but because nothing on the market today or even planned comes close to SWG pre-NGE in terms of gameplay and mechanics.
If a company truelly wants to make some decent money from an MMO they need to start thinking of those that don't want simplified games as well, there's a huge portion of players out there that are just waiting for a complex MMORPG to come out, by complex i'm referring to a complex crafting system, skill boxes with loads of combinations to use and TRUE player run economy where the crafters don't just make the best items but are actually the only worth while source for items.
I've said it many times in various threads similar to this, if a company wants to hold any weight and longevity in this day and age it needs to scrap the foundations that WoW is built on and make something that will appeal to those from Pre-NGE SWG (the type of playstyle these people and most likely others enjoyed, not a "clone" of it)
SWG was in no way a 'stable game' pre-CU. When I joined the game abotu four months after its release they just barely finished issues that should have been fixed at release. The early players were outgrowing the content and were looking for something else to do. The game was imploding montsh before WoW even came out. Player cities were becoming urban wastelands and very devoted players were leaving. The Jedi Holocron fiasco proved that SOE did not know what they were doing with the game.
I said pre-NGE not pre-CU.
The answer is obviously YES.
mmorpGs are much better games than they were first conceived.
Features like instances, dungeon finding tools, ability to customize interfaces, battleground, arenas ... make the gaming experience more diverse and more fun.
Yes, because its unheard of for good things not to get noticed by the mass public. I mean, FIrefly was such a horrible show, it deserved to be cancelled. But Jersey Shore, now THAT'S quality!
I thought firefly was pretty damn boring actually.
I can't comment on Jersey Shore as I have never seen it, however I would wager that many people feel it is better than firefly.
Venge
So by your logic... if more people use the word 'irony' incorrectly than use it the right way... the people who use it the right way are now wrong? If a lot of people say that we breathe aurem instead of oxygen, it makes the people who say we breathe oxygen wrong?
And wow, 7 years and the hundreds of MMOs that have come out have come up with... 2 features! Wow! What an acomplishment! We should be proud of this FLOURISHING industry.
More DIVERSE? No, we had dungeons and battlegrounds and arenas in 2001, nothing new there.
More FUN? Maybe for people who don't like MMORPGs. For peple that would rather play a game like Diablo than EverQuest.
MMOs today have less features than MMOs of yesterday. That is the opposite of progress.
Everything I did in yesterday's games I can do in today games and games today give me more options in how I choose to play. I can group much easier than in old games, solo much easier than in old games, and flight is far more common, as are housing systems of some kind.
I think games today have progressed. Progress doesn't just mean something new. Progress also means how relevant or widespread something has become. Flight was in 1 game back in the day, now it's common. Thats progress. Being able to choose how you want to play easier, thats progress. More games having housing, thats progress.
More styles of games on the market, thats progress.
Venge
edit - it also means things being done a different way. Instancing is first developed, lotro retools it to phasing, WoW retools it to include large geographical areas. Thats progress.
You seem to enjoy contradicting yourself. Re-read the quote above on what you wrote and think why I would say so.
So what did we get during the last 7 years?
Phasing (LoTRO was released April - 2007) - Just an extention of instancing, which has been around forever, slightly innovative, but not much, nor is it really a good feature for MMOs.
Public Quests Yes I mentioned those, again more of an extension of an old idea that many MMOs were already using.
BGs These were around a LOT longer than 7 years ago.
Difficulty Settings As were difficulty settings.
How you define what is an MMO and what is not an MMO is irrelevant since the vast majority of players consider WoW an MMO.
Capitalism and free market is working as intended.
So by your logic... if more people use the word 'irony' incorrectly than use it the right way... the people who use it the right way are now wrong? If a lot of people say that we breathe aurem instead of oxygen, it makes the people who say we breathe oxygen wrong?
And wow, 7 years and the hundreds of MMOs that have come out have come up with... 2 features! Wow! What an acomplishment! We should be proud of this FLOURISHING industry.
The industry has to prove that it can actually make money before you get all those innovations. Developing mmorpg isn't free you know.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
How much money do they have to make though? It seems like every game launched is trying to hit WoW numbers and that's just not realistic.
Right... Lizardbones, what about all the MMos of the Golden Age that were pumping out innovations like it was there job, despite the fact that it really wasn't clear if they'd make money on it?