Even if ToR succeeds, F2P is clearly the place to be regardless of your company size and game quality. Do you really want to erect barriers against potential paying customers by charging them just to get in the door?
That depends. If your'e successful like WoW, P2P is clearly the place to be. And yes, it's quite alrigh to erect barriers againt potential paying customers by charging them just to get in the door. There are obviously plenty of players will to pay to get in the door for a good enough game.
If you'r NOT successful enough to charge a sub, then yes, a cash shop is the place for you to be.
"If you charge it and people pay it, you deserve it" is pretty much the argument for F2P games in which people pay thousands of dollars to advance as well. It's the epitome of the free market at work and doesn't automatically bolster the subscription argument.
Even if ToR succeeds, F2P is clearly the place to be regardless of your company size and game quality. Do you really want to erect barriers against potential paying customers by charging them just to get in the door?
That depends. If your'e successful like WoW, P2P is clearly the place to be. And yes, it's quite alrigh to erect barriers againt potential paying customers by charging them just to get in the door. There are obviously plenty of players will to pay to get in the door for a good enough game.
If you'r NOT successful enough to charge a sub, then yes, a cash shop is the place for you to be.
"If you charge it and people pay it, you deserve it" is pretty much the argument for F2P games in which people pay thousands of dollars to advance as well. It's the epitome of the free market at work and doesn't automatically bolster the subscription argument.
A successful business is a successful business.
Are cash shop games successful? Sure.
Are P2P games successful? Well, just look at WoW. I'd say yes.
Are WoW players also spending money in cash shop games? Probably not.
Are cash shop gamers subbing to WoW? Probably not.
Looks like there's money to be made with both types of games, P2P and cash shop.
Is WoW the only P2P game that will ever be successful from now on?
There are over 1 billion estimated gamers in the world. 46 million of those are US mmo players.
The Star Wars franchise has earned over 22 billion dollars.
The original KOTOR made by Bioware (KOTOR II was not) sold over 1.5 million copies on the xbox alone.
Bioware has sold more than 10 million copies of ME, DA and KOTOR franchises combined.
Stop living inside your box for a minute and think outside it for once.
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Hey you asked what pool will could suscribers come from and I gave you figures. there are 46 million mmo players out there in the US alone and if you take away WoW's players, that still leaves 42 million playing some type of MMO.
I think you made Sidhhaethe’s point with your numbers here! If we use your numbers that there are 46 million gamers in the United States right now, we can see how many are actually willing to pay a subscription to play a game. Well since we know World of Warcraft is the largest pay to play MMO on the market, let’s start with their reported numbers. First off some facts; the last numbers we have from Blizzard were they actual told us how many United States subscribers they have was back in 2008, when they hit 10 million. And since then they have hit 12 million, so it is anybody’s guess how many of that 2 million came from the United States, Europe, and Asia. What we do know is that out of their 10 million subscriber announcement 2.5 million were in the United States.
So if we use your numbers for the amount of gamers in the United States, World of Warcraft has 5.4% of the Gamers in the United States playing and paying. Now we know that World of Warcraft is the biggest Pay to Play MMO in the United States, so we should be able to get a rough idea of what percentage of gamers are paying a subscription. With this I am going to be really nice and say that all of the other pay to play MMOs makes up another 10%, which I would say is very generous since WoW the largest is 5.4%. So with that figure that puts the total percentage of gamers paying a subscription in the United States at 15.4%; with a majority not paying a subscription at a whopping 84.6%!
Now I might not be a genius but I think if that 84.6% is not paying to play right now, it is going to be very hard for Bioware to convince them to rent a game from them monthly. And yes they will probably get some of them to try it, just like Blizzard did, but then the question is how many will stay. What incentive is there to stay and rent a game when they are not doing that right now? To me this is a very uphill battle MMOs and Bioware is facing with this, and I do not envy them at all. The last part I want to bring up is that your number for the amount of gamers is way off at least according to the media, the report I found through Google say there are approximately 170 million gamers in the United States as of 2009. This would make the percentage of gamers paying subscriptions even lower than the 15.4% I used in this example. So I think we can say that the percentage of pay to play gamers is pretty niche even now almost 7 years after World of Warcraft.
Also for the last quote where did you ever get the idea that World of Warcraft has 4 million playing in the United States? I want to see that press release from Blizzard!
Originally posted by kalinis
And no gw the origional was almost all instanced u went from one instanced area to another gw 2 will be no diffrent.Oh and gw 2 maybe have areas u wander up to and pickup quests to kill the things in city or town or area but they are not getting rid of quests altogether lol. They are gonna have content much like rifts where u wander up and the town is on fire and u have to put out fires and ifght off the enemy just like rifts.I have read up on it u can say its diffrent much more innovative but its not. The origional was once instance area after another and gw 2 wont be any diffrent that said if u like it so be it.I just thinnk its funny that the people who rip tor dont even have all the facts or information.
Can we say we are a hypocrite? You point out how it is funny how people do not get the facts right about Tor, but then spread disinformation about GW2 in the same breath. You first say that GW2 will be instanced just like GW, when there are facts everywhere proving this false. So how exactly is this like GW when everyone on your server could meet in Queensdale right outside Divinity’s reach for a photo in GW2? Since GW was hub based that would not be possible, but it is in GW2, so again how is it exactly alike? Also from the example you give of quests in GW2 do you know what the difference is between the personal story and Dynamic Events? For someone that does not like people making up facts and the wrong information in their posts, you seem to be doing it a lot!
Here is a wonderful idea before you decide to cast that first stone, how about we try to follow our own advice! Or you could do the opposite and get a Hypocrite sign to put up with all your bleeding heart Star Wars TOR post.
And just for the record I hope TOR does great, so all it fans can have fun playing it for years!
Lol building UP on SWtor hype i see, so desparate to get confirmation on your favorite game being the WoW killer.
I think it will fail misrable and all you fans blame WoW and whine for rest of year here on mmorpg lol
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
There are over 1 billion estimated gamers in the world. 46 million of those are US mmo players.
The Star Wars franchise has earned over 22 billion dollars.
The original KOTOR made by Bioware (KOTOR II was not) sold over 1.5 million copies on the xbox alone.
Bioware has sold more than 10 million copies of ME, DA and KOTOR franchises combined.
Stop living inside your box for a minute and think outside it for once.
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Hey you asked what pool will could suscribers come from and I gave you figures. there are 46 million mmo players out there in the US alone and if you take away WoW's players, that still leaves 42 million playing some type of MMO.
I think you made Sidhhaethe’s point with your numbers here! If we use your numbers that there are 46 million gamers in the United States right now, we can see how many are actually willing to pay a subscription to play a game. Well since we know World of Warcraft is the largest pay to play MMO on the market, let’s start with their reported numbers. First off some facts; the last numbers we have from Blizzard were they actual told us how many United States subscribers they have was back in 2008, when they hit 10 million. And since then they have hit 12 million, so it is anybody’s guess how many of that 2 million came from the United States, Europe, and Asia. What we do know is that out of their 10 million subscriber announcement 2.5 million were in the United States.
So if we use your numbers for the amount of gamers in the United States, World of Warcraft has 5.4% of the Gamers in the United States playing and paying. Now we know that World of Warcraft is the biggest Pay to Play MMO in the United States, so we should be able to get a rough idea of what percentage of gamers are paying a subscription. With this I am going to be really nice and say that all of the other pay to play MMOs makes up another 10%, which I would say is very generous since WoW the largest is 5.4%. So with that figure that puts the total percentage of gamers paying a subscription in the United States at 15.4%; with a majority not paying a subscription at a whopping 84.6%!
Now I might not be a genius but I think if that 84.6% is not paying to play right now, it is going to be very hard for Bioware to convince them to rent a game from them monthly. And yes they will probably get some of them to try it, just like Blizzard did, but then the question is how many will stay. What incentive is there to stay and rent a game when they are not doing that right now? To me this is a very uphill battle MMOs and Bioware is facing with his, and I do not envy them at all. The last part I want to bring up is that your number for the amount of gamers is way off at least according to the media, the report I found through Google say there are approximately 170 million gamers in the United States as of 2009. This would make the percentage of gamers paying subscriptions even lower than the 15.4% I used in this example. So I think we can say that the percentage of pay to play gamers is pretty niche even now almost 7 years after World of Warcraft.
Also for the last quote where did you ever get the idea that World of Warcraft has 4 million playing in the United States? I want to see that press release from Blizzard.
Firstly I said 46 million US MMO players are playing some type of mmo. Whether that's Aion through Zentia. Free to play or P2P. It's roughly 46 million. The 4 million US WoW players come from here or here. Same article different source. Funny how 6 years can change things quickly. In 2004, US internet users was roughly 68.8% of the population or 201 million users. Six years later we have 77.3% of the US online at 239 million users (85 million for BB alone).
Now let's take that broadband number really fast. In 2004 we had roughly 33.5 million people using BB in the US. And in 6 years it more than doubled to that 85 million number I said earlier. If you can get impressive jumps like that from narrowband and broadband users in the US, don't you think that all numbers have jumped up across the board? More mmo players, more online gamers, more potential to capture new subscribers.
Even if TOR manages to garner 2 million subs with 1 million coming from other mmos, 500k coming from Bioware's fanbase and 500k coming from Star Wars' camp, who's to say it will not be a gradual increase. Like WoW. Not a bam! All of a sudden TOR goes from zero users to 2 million. But what it will have done is expand the base by 1 million (from 46 million to 47 million). And who knows how many more will come if it goes global (which I think it will as SW and BW both have overseas followings).
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Well, if the game is good the subs will come. If the game is bad,the star wars IPO will not save it, ask SOE and their cursed NGE...
The biggest question to me is not what TOR will be like at launch - but where will the development focus go for end game content after players run through the story lines that should be nearly complete at launch...
That is my hope for seeing more sandbox elements come in...No company can produce scripted story lines at ANY kind of a pace to feed a hungry playerbase...you have to have meta elements in the game that players can sink time into...like building up there own cities/space stations, crafting, raiding, etc.
I have read repeatedly from TOR devs that they are trying to make a game that appeals to everyone. Well out of the box, it isnt going to appeal to sandbox players...so hopefully they will add those elements later as they realize that continuously developing scripted content is a dead end...
The biggest thing that scares me about TOR is the IDIOTIC space combat on rails. Whoever made those decisions should be fired and shunned. I hope that kind of idiotic decision making was a fluke and will be found no where else. A few more boneheaded choices like that could sink the whole game.
Firstly I said 46 million US MMO players are playing some type of mmo. Whether that's Aion through Zentia. Free to play or P2P. It's roughly 46 million. The 4 million US WoW players come from here or here. Same article different source. Funny how 6 years can change things quickly. In 2004, US internet users was roughly 68.8% of the population or 201 million users. Six years later we have 77.3% of the US online at 239 million users (85 million for BB alone).
Now let's take that broadband number really fast. In 2004 we had roughly 33.5 million people using BB in the US. And in 6 years it more than doubled to that 85 million number I said earlier. If you can get impressive jumps like that from narrowband and broadband users in the US, don't you think that all numbers have jumped up across the board? More mmo players, more online gamers, more potential to capture new subscribers.
Even if TOR manages to garner 2 million subs with 1 million coming from other mmos, 500k coming from Bioware's fanbase and 500k coming from Star Wars' camp, who's to say it will not be a gradual increase. Like WoW. Not a bam! All of a sudden TOR goes from zero users to 2 million. But what it will have done is expand the base by 1 million (from 46 million to 47 million). And who knows how many more will come if it goes global (which I think it will as SW and BW both have overseas followings).
Really! You are quoting someone that is using World of Warcraft politically as a source for Blizzard subscriber numbers. I would really like to see the proof backing up what these journalist have said, because what you just quoted amounts to hearsay. In June 2008 when World of Warcraft hit 10 million and Blizzard made its press release that was the last time they broke down subscription based on region (you can see the official press release here). In November 2008 when World of Warcraft hit 11.5 million subscribers they did not give a breakdown of the regions, you can see the press release here. In October 2010 when World of Warcraft hit 12 million subscribers worldwide Blizzard again did not give a breakdown of regions, you can see the press release here. So the last known fact from Blizzard on United States subscription numbers is 2.5 million! So you are proposing we take those journalists that have no proof at face value, while they are saying between June 2008 to October 2010 World of Warcraft grew by 2 million and the United Stated made up 1.5 million and the rest of the world did 500k. I am sorry but this does not seem credible to me, I want to see a Blizzard press release saying this! Here is a crazy idea how about we stick with the facts we know!
As to the 46 million MMO players sorry I misread that part! With that I decide to do my own research to see what the brake down is of that 46 million for Pay to play numbers. According to the only press release that said the United States has 46 million playing MMOs, 21 million are pay to play and the other 25 million are playing without a subscription. So pay to play MMOs make up 12.3% of the 170 million Untied States citizens gaming. Other MMOs make up 14.7% of the 170 million United States Citizens gaming. While 73% of gamers in the United States do not play MMOs, now as a business looking for new cliental this is the sector that you would want to shot for. Now the question is, does Bioware have enough that is different from what other MMOs offer to get that 73% not playing MMOs or the 14.7% to switch to pay to play. I do not know the answer to this, I am not sure anyone does. After all we would have to know why that 73% of gamers are not playing any of the MMOs released right now. Or to make the 14.7% playing other types of MMOs to change to pay to play! If Bioware offers different types of ways to play the game I could see them capitalizing on this more than if they just offer pay 2 play. Because in the end this is more about why the 73% of gamers are not playing MMOs right now! Is it the pay to play models that all AAA MMOs currently demand or is it something else? Depending on what that answer is, will greatly determine if Bioware can bring in New Blood and maintain it.
Yes I know the Broadband statistics are impressive, but that really is not what matters. Since not all of those people are gamers and gamers not playing MMOs are the greatest recruitment pool for MMOs. Anyone that does not game currently that they get to play is gravy, but you do not build a business on that. Just like you do not build a business that sales coffee on people that do not drink coffee, so the more vital statistic is how many gamers are in the United States and how many are currently playing MMOs and that is information we know.
As to the 46 million MMO players sorry I misread that part! With that I decide to do my own research to see what the brake down is of that 46 million for Pay to play numbers. According to the only press release that said the United States has 46 million playing MMOs, 21 million are pay to play and the other 25 million are playing without a subscription. So pay to play MMOs make up 12.3% of the 170 million Untied States citizens gaming. Other MMOs make up 14.7% of the 170 million United States Citizens gaming. While 73% of gamers in the United States do not play MMOs, now as a business looking for new cliental this is the sector that you would want to shot for. Now the question is, does Bioware have enough that is different from what other MMOs offer to get that 73% not playing MMOs or the 14.7% to switch to pay to play. I do not know the answer to this, I am not sure anyone does. After all we would have to know why that 73% of gamers are not playing any of the MMOs released right now. Or to make the 14.7% playing other types of MMOs to change to pay to play! If Bioware offers different types of ways to play the game I could see them capitalizing on this more than if they just offer pay 2 play. Because in the end this is more about why the 73% of gamers are not playing MMOs right now! Is it the pay to play models that all AAA MMOs currently demand or is it something else? Depending on what that answer is, will greatly determine if Bioware can bring in New Blood and maintain it.
I am sure Bioware is looking at the same numbers as you do. In fact, the only reason that they have spent $150M is that there is a hugely untapped market there (73% who do not play MMOs).
That is the whole reason why Bioware is putting so much of their acclaimed storytelling into TOR. This certainly works well to capture the SP gaming market (just count their stream of hits).
I do read non-MMO forums, though, and one sentiment I have seen more than once (I certainly wouldn't put a statistic to it, which is why at best I have always ever said I think it is a "not insignificant" number - not a "majority" or even "half" or "most") is, "I wish Bioware had just made KOTOR 3."
So, maybe the majority of gamers out there are just waiting for an excuse to pay a subscription based on the SW IP and Bioware's incredible brand name. Maybe!
I wanted to comment about this part in particular, so please correct me if it's out of context- but I believe this happened with WoW as well. IMO the players really wanted a successor to Diablo, but got this instead. It would explain how WoW has evolved more toward a lobby type game that a classic MMORPG. That being said, even if the exact gameplay desired isn't delivered- if the game is polished enough and has content that the players enjoy then they'll deal with it.
Of all genres of games I have played it seems MMOs can deliver either far less, or just different content than what was expected/advertised and players will still accept it.
So, basically, we all have to hope for TOR to fail horribly in order to get sandbox MMOs?
You will probably never get a sandbox mmo from a big developer ,at least not the kind most of sandbox fans want - with ffa pvp,heavy death penalties,full loot,no quests etc but if sw:tor fails you will get a lot of cheap f2p games like co or star trek.Pure sandbox will never be a popular genre so no point in attacking aaa games and hoping they will fail,tor failing will not make darkfall more popular with mmo players.
Why would a WoW player quit WoW for something more or less the same? More important question is why would anyone who dislikes WoW, and especially what it has become, for something alike WoW?
Because lot of wow players,even if they like the themepark mmos, got bored with the game or annoyed with some developers choices.I was annoyed with wow even before tbc for their choice of making end game all about items and raids,the lack of quality questing ( killing 10 boars is not a quest),making crafting items lower in quality than instance drops,insane reputation grinding etc.So as long sw tor don't repeats those mistakes i will play it.If not there are quite a few decent f2p older games like lotr to avoid paying for another game made for hardcore raiding guilds.
I and I am sure others have already mentioned this. We know what happened after WoW, Rift is doing OK thats another tick in the box for keeping things llike WoW. So there needs to be an alternative MMO template that is a huge success to change the status quo.
With all due respect for the so called "MMO developers" I don't think they actually understand anything about the MMORPGs industry, you just need to check all the "stuff" that came out after WoW.
And certainly doesn't surprise me their answer which is quite obvious coming from them, I am referring at the fact that if SWTOR is successful everyone will copy it.
They didn't have to say that, since everyone can see that it is exactly what they did since WoW took over the market.
To add to that, I can safely say that SWTOR won't change the MMO industry, because it is too heavily quested and too story driven, it will be too similar to a single player RPG to succeed as a long term option.
It will sell an awful lot of boxes because it is made by Bioware, and it is a Star Wars IP, probably it will sell even more than Mass Effect, but where SWTOR will fail is to keep a steady number of subscriptions.
I can finish a Bioware RPG in less than a month, after that, if they want me to stay subscribed for more, every month they need to update fresh content which is unlikable (It takes roughly a year to create a month content).
Apart for the storyline the rest of the game will be a WoW clone, so there is hardly a revolution going on there.
After a couple of months when people have done with the content and rolled their third Alt, they will find out they are basically playing a single player game, cause no one will want to do group stuff (too busy questing)
Of course is my opinion, but generally I get it right, because I don't hate/love games, so I don't get too emotional about a MMO like many people do nowadays.
They basically said, if TOR is successful, developers will copy this model for years to come. The story based, subscription MMORPG, voiceover, expensive AAA title.
It will be one of the few games to take on WoW head to head with a subscription base, and do ok. Because they all agreed the game was taking on WoW, not going for a niche like Secret World or something like that.
Or, if ToR is a horrible failure, more games will go F2P and developers will be scared to take on WoW because they know they'll just lose money. They will concentrate on either F2P titles, or niche games that don't compete with WoW.
I guess sort of, if ToR can't do it, nobody can.
Supposed to release this year I think, and even then you have to wait a month or two to see if people renew their subs or just buy the box then dump the game.
I suppose it's wrong of me, but this makes me really want TOR to fail. Or even to just "fail" ie: only get a few hundred thousand subs.
I can finish a Bioware RPG in less than a month, after that, if they want me to stay subscribed for more, every month they need to update fresh content which is unlikable (It takes roughly a year to create a month content).
No .. that is a TYPICAL bioware SP game content. They already said there is like 7x more content than a typical bioware game. So that will be 6-7 months before you can finish it.
If that is on average, then they will be getting box price + 6 months of sub ~ $40+6*$15 = $130. If they sell 2M, they will be able to make money even if no one sub more than 6 months.
Given Bioware's track record (just see how many ME2 has sold), selling 2M does not seem to be an unattentable target.
With all due respect for the so called "MMO developers" I don't think they actually understand anything about the MMORPGs industry, you just need to check all the "stuff" that came out after WoW.
And certainly doesn't surprise me their answer which is quite obvious coming from them, I am referring at the fact that if SWTOR is successful everyone will copy it.
They didn't have to say that, since everyone can see that it is exactly what they did since WoW took over the market.
To add to that, I can safely say that SWTOR won't change the MMO industry, because it is too heavily quested and too story driven, it will be too similar to a single player RPG to succeed as a long term option.
It will sell an awful lot of boxes because it is made by Bioware, and it is a Star Wars IP, probably it will sell even more than Mass Effect, but where SWTOR will fail is to keep a steady number of subscriptions.
I can finish a Bioware RPG in less than a month, after that, if they want me to stay subscribed for more, every month they need to update fresh content which is unlikable (It takes roughly a year to create a month content).
Apart for the storyline the rest of the game will be a WoW clone, so there is hardly a revolution going on there.
After a couple of months when people have done with the content and rolled their third Alt, they will find out they are basically playing a single player game, cause no one will want to do group stuff (too busy questing)
Of course is my opinion, but generally I get it right, because I don't hate/love games, so I don't get too emotional about a MMO like many people do nowadays.
And thats where you're missing, what the developers said the game currently offers. As a placeholder, you're adding your opinion of what you think the game is trying to be.
While your personal story can be solo'd all the way through, thats where the single player content stops (save for maybe some crafting ---though very minimal as the top items require collaboration ---- and off hand exploring --- though you likely would find content while exploring that you couldn't complete alone like world bosses, elite mobs, etc.)
I think everyone will be surprised, BioWare fans, TOR doubters, and console gamers new to the MMORPG genre. You may start with going through your personal story, and soloing through it, but you'll quickly find (likely even before you leave the starter world, but definitely when you hit the 2nd world) that you'll be brought into areas with situations that will require grouping. To finish just 1 single player story slated at 200+ hours of content (which alone will take 2 - 3 months with 3 - 4 hours a day of playtime.) and to never reroll, you still have hundreds of hours of PvE content you missed before you even get into PvP, crafting, space combat, or anything else really.
The biggest detriment to SWTOR right now, is the vast amount of misinformation people have on the game. They think its a WoW clone, when in fact, the only thing it cloned from WoW is the ability to take everything other games had, and improve on it. Thats exactly what they did. Combat - Improved. Crafting - Improved. World Design - Improved. Character Progression - Improved. Class Choices/Hybridization - Improved. Questing - 10X Improved. And most importantly for a new MMO, they have the content to backup all of these things.
To add to that, I can safely say that SWTOR won't change the MMO industry, because it is too heavily quested and too story driven, it will be too similar to a single player RPG to succeed as a long term option.
It will sell an awful lot of boxes because it is made by Bioware, and it is a Star Wars IP, probably it will sell even more than Mass Effect, but where SWTOR will fail is to keep a steady number of subscriptions.
I can finish a Bioware RPG in less than a month, after that, if they want me to stay subscribed for more, every month they need to update fresh content which is unlikable (It takes roughly a year to create a month content).
I think you're wrong, for several reasons.
Bear with me:
- there's various groups of MMO gamers with different preferences and dislikes, so it's very well possible that a feature that one group of MMO gamers finds exciting another group of MMO gamers will dislike or be indifferent about, and vice versa.
- in the same way it stands to reason that for any MMO gamer who has grown bored or tired of themepark MMO's ('WoW clones') and its standard mechanics, another MMO gamer or maybe 3 or 4 MMO gamers still can find fun and enjoyment in those.
- the dominant success of themepark MMO's, even when excluding WoW, compared with other MMO subgenres, shows that still the majority of MMO gamers can find fun in it. LotrO managed to keep 200-300k subs for years, even AoC with its disastrous launch still had 400k subs after 3-4 months. Rift which is extremely close to the WoW-styled themepark format is received extremely well.
- the new styled story CATA quests received a lot of positive comments of MMO gamers, they were liked a lot more than the former standard WoW quests.
- the problem with the two former points is, even if MMO gamers can enjoy themepark MMO's with its questing and such, there has to be enough for them to do for longer than 2-3 months. As you saw with WoW, if MMO gamers liked the new questing but aren't in to raiding, then a lot of them will become inactive again or unsub when they reached level cap.
- As various statements said, SWTOR's various leveling and questing content is absurdly much and dwarfs other MMO's: as stated, each story chapter of a class is far longer than a KOTOR game, 200 hours in total, so that's not like playing 1 KOTOR game but like playing 5 KOTOR games. And that's just for 1 of 8 Classes, and only talking about Class Quest content, World Quests, Flashpoints, World Arcs not included. It's World Quests that's said to be the majority of the quest content, not the Class Quest content.
- So, questing or leveling content won't exactly be the problem, especially since SWTOR's questing content will be of a higher quality than traditional MMO quest content. For those who can enjoy the leveling process and questing in a KOTOR/ME kind of way, they'll have 1600 hours of Class Quest content and even more in World Quest content to take their pick from, enough to keep them entertained for many months to come.
- Of course, just like with other MMO's, the game changes when you reach level cap. For the group of MMO gamers who care little for the leveling process, who dislike alts and who're mainly focused on the endgame content, it'll have to be the World Arcs, the War zones, the open world pvp, crafting, the Flashpoints and the raid dungeons in SWTOR that will determine whether they plan to stick around or not. Only time will tell if that's enough. The same applies to whether all the endgame content has been already revealed or not, only time can tell.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Tor hasnt releases yet either. That said we know what tor is gonna be. Give bioware credit. We all know its a themepark mmo, with race class limitations. We know the space combat is a mini game that will give u rewards that will alllow u to upgrade your ship which will be your bank and home.
We know its gonna be alot like wow with voice over and an emphasis on story. Bioware is gonna bring back rpg to the mmorpg. Granted its gonna be a gm controlled type of rpg but its gonna be a legit rpg. With its emphasis on story and choices change how your story goes and how the world reacts to u.
Sure it may not be a revoloutionary new idea that changes the mmo industry forever. But any fan of tor knows all this. We arent expecting the game to re invent the genre.
I t hink this is why gw 2 fans will be so upset. They fully expect gw 2 to not only be the most innovative mmo in yrs but to change the way mmos are made and re invent the genre.
Gw 2 will have quests from what ive read. its just some of those quests u walk up to a town its being invaded and u hav to stop the invasion if u dont stop it the town becomes taken over by invaders or u stop it and the town returns to normal for most part. This is the kinda stuff ive read about gw 2.
They arent getting rid of quests altogether just changing how they are picked up and where. instead of a centralized quest hub u will run into the quests and have to do them. That may be a new spin but its not exacly getting rid of or re inventing the genre.
Im not saying it wont be cool and fell cool . I love phasing in wow for most part. Im just saying people who expect what a game may not deliever are the ones who leave . Tor fans should knwo what they are getting and what to expect by now.
Sure it isnt gonna reinvent the genre but they are putting an emphasis on story and choice. They may not be reinventing the wheel but they arent claiming they are gonna do things that they wont deliever either.
Imho SWTOR will be a bright success with subs beyond 1 million. Story IS a big thing in a MMORPG, not the only thing but i enjoyed Tortage so much with its smaller story and can only speculate how much bigger SWTOR will be. SWTOR will improve anything you know from the common modern MMO - its all said and posted.
MMOs must not be the single dimensional focussed game only for PvPer, PvEer, Grinder, Quester, Crafter, Explorer, Socializer etc. a real MMO is that big that there can be a place for many styles. I mean the engine is set, the world is there, how much more is the work to offer different content for different tastes as long the engine supports it? In the end i would like very much a good hybrid MMORPG (NOT FPS) that offers Lore, Story, Raid, Sandbox, the different PvP-styles in specific parts of the world. If you have the laid the foundation right a MMO is a place where you can offer many variety and get as much crowd as possible to pay the sub.
I hope also The Secret World will do good bcs i want go away from levels and class restrictions to more choices and no nerfing bcs its up to the player to find the most fun build, the most dps/hps build or whatever.
Fuck Balancing!!!!! (in the means of making everything the same)
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Comments
"If you charge it and people pay it, you deserve it" is pretty much the argument for F2P games in which people pay thousands of dollars to advance as well. It's the epitome of the free market at work and doesn't automatically bolster the subscription argument.
A successful business is a successful business.
Are cash shop games successful? Sure.
Are P2P games successful? Well, just look at WoW. I'd say yes.
Are WoW players also spending money in cash shop games? Probably not.
Are cash shop gamers subbing to WoW? Probably not.
Looks like there's money to be made with both types of games, P2P and cash shop.
Is WoW the only P2P game that will ever be successful from now on?
I don't know.
Was it? If so, I suppose that's a good point.
Still wish I'd had a chance to try it. It went poof so fast
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think you made Sidhhaethe’s point with your numbers here! If we use your numbers that there are 46 million gamers in the United States right now, we can see how many are actually willing to pay a subscription to play a game. Well since we know World of Warcraft is the largest pay to play MMO on the market, let’s start with their reported numbers. First off some facts; the last numbers we have from Blizzard were they actual told us how many United States subscribers they have was back in 2008, when they hit 10 million. And since then they have hit 12 million, so it is anybody’s guess how many of that 2 million came from the United States, Europe, and Asia. What we do know is that out of their 10 million subscriber announcement 2.5 million were in the United States.
So if we use your numbers for the amount of gamers in the United States, World of Warcraft has 5.4% of the Gamers in the United States playing and paying. Now we know that World of Warcraft is the biggest Pay to Play MMO in the United States, so we should be able to get a rough idea of what percentage of gamers are paying a subscription. With this I am going to be really nice and say that all of the other pay to play MMOs makes up another 10%, which I would say is very generous since WoW the largest is 5.4%. So with that figure that puts the total percentage of gamers paying a subscription in the United States at 15.4%; with a majority not paying a subscription at a whopping 84.6%!
Now I might not be a genius but I think if that 84.6% is not paying to play right now, it is going to be very hard for Bioware to convince them to rent a game from them monthly. And yes they will probably get some of them to try it, just like Blizzard did, but then the question is how many will stay. What incentive is there to stay and rent a game when they are not doing that right now? To me this is a very uphill battle MMOs and Bioware is facing with this, and I do not envy them at all. The last part I want to bring up is that your number for the amount of gamers is way off at least according to the media, the report I found through Google say there are approximately 170 million gamers in the United States as of 2009. This would make the percentage of gamers paying subscriptions even lower than the 15.4% I used in this example. So I think we can say that the percentage of pay to play gamers is pretty niche even now almost 7 years after World of Warcraft.
Also for the last quote where did you ever get the idea that World of Warcraft has 4 million playing in the United States? I want to see that press release from Blizzard!
Can we say we are a hypocrite? You point out how it is funny how people do not get the facts right about Tor, but then spread disinformation about GW2 in the same breath. You first say that GW2 will be instanced just like GW, when there are facts everywhere proving this false. So how exactly is this like GW when everyone on your server could meet in Queensdale right outside Divinity’s reach for a photo in GW2? Since GW was hub based that would not be possible, but it is in GW2, so again how is it exactly alike? Also from the example you give of quests in GW2 do you know what the difference is between the personal story and Dynamic Events? For someone that does not like people making up facts and the wrong information in their posts, you seem to be doing it a lot!
Here is a wonderful idea before you decide to cast that first stone, how about we try to follow our own advice! Or you could do the opposite and get a Hypocrite sign to put up with all your bleeding heart Star Wars TOR post.
And just for the record I hope TOR does great, so all it fans can have fun playing it for years!
Lol building UP on SWtor hype i see, so desparate to get confirmation on your favorite game being the WoW killer.
I think it will fail misrable and all you fans blame WoW and whine for rest of year here on mmorpg lol
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Firstly I said 46 million US MMO players are playing some type of mmo. Whether that's Aion through Zentia. Free to play or P2P. It's roughly 46 million. The 4 million US WoW players come from here or here. Same article different source. Funny how 6 years can change things quickly. In 2004, US internet users was roughly 68.8% of the population or 201 million users. Six years later we have 77.3% of the US online at 239 million users (85 million for BB alone).
Now let's take that broadband number really fast. In 2004 we had roughly 33.5 million people using BB in the US. And in 6 years it more than doubled to that 85 million number I said earlier. If you can get impressive jumps like that from narrowband and broadband users in the US, don't you think that all numbers have jumped up across the board? More mmo players, more online gamers, more potential to capture new subscribers.
Even if TOR manages to garner 2 million subs with 1 million coming from other mmos, 500k coming from Bioware's fanbase and 500k coming from Star Wars' camp, who's to say it will not be a gradual increase. Like WoW. Not a bam! All of a sudden TOR goes from zero users to 2 million. But what it will have done is expand the base by 1 million (from 46 million to 47 million). And who knows how many more will come if it goes global (which I think it will as SW and BW both have overseas followings).
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Well, if the game is good the subs will come. If the game is bad,the star wars IPO will not save it, ask SOE and their cursed NGE...
The biggest question to me is not what TOR will be like at launch - but where will the development focus go for end game content after players run through the story lines that should be nearly complete at launch...
That is my hope for seeing more sandbox elements come in...No company can produce scripted story lines at ANY kind of a pace to feed a hungry playerbase...you have to have meta elements in the game that players can sink time into...like building up there own cities/space stations, crafting, raiding, etc.
I have read repeatedly from TOR devs that they are trying to make a game that appeals to everyone. Well out of the box, it isnt going to appeal to sandbox players...so hopefully they will add those elements later as they realize that continuously developing scripted content is a dead end...
The biggest thing that scares me about TOR is the IDIOTIC space combat on rails. Whoever made those decisions should be fired and shunned. I hope that kind of idiotic decision making was a fluke and will be found no where else. A few more boneheaded choices like that could sink the whole game.
I'm just discussing an article from the current PC gamer, where they interviewed other developers about ToR.
You can read the article yourself. Should be on the shelf at your local bookstore.
Really! You are quoting someone that is using World of Warcraft politically as a source for Blizzard subscriber numbers. I would really like to see the proof backing up what these journalist have said, because what you just quoted amounts to hearsay. In June 2008 when World of Warcraft hit 10 million and Blizzard made its press release that was the last time they broke down subscription based on region (you can see the official press release here). In November 2008 when World of Warcraft hit 11.5 million subscribers they did not give a breakdown of the regions, you can see the press release here. In October 2010 when World of Warcraft hit 12 million subscribers worldwide Blizzard again did not give a breakdown of regions, you can see the press release here. So the last known fact from Blizzard on United States subscription numbers is 2.5 million! So you are proposing we take those journalists that have no proof at face value, while they are saying between June 2008 to October 2010 World of Warcraft grew by 2 million and the United Stated made up 1.5 million and the rest of the world did 500k. I am sorry but this does not seem credible to me, I want to see a Blizzard press release saying this! Here is a crazy idea how about we stick with the facts we know!
As to the 46 million MMO players sorry I misread that part! With that I decide to do my own research to see what the brake down is of that 46 million for Pay to play numbers. According to the only press release that said the United States has 46 million playing MMOs, 21 million are pay to play and the other 25 million are playing without a subscription. So pay to play MMOs make up 12.3% of the 170 million Untied States citizens gaming. Other MMOs make up 14.7% of the 170 million United States Citizens gaming. While 73% of gamers in the United States do not play MMOs, now as a business looking for new cliental this is the sector that you would want to shot for. Now the question is, does Bioware have enough that is different from what other MMOs offer to get that 73% not playing MMOs or the 14.7% to switch to pay to play. I do not know the answer to this, I am not sure anyone does. After all we would have to know why that 73% of gamers are not playing any of the MMOs released right now. Or to make the 14.7% playing other types of MMOs to change to pay to play! If Bioware offers different types of ways to play the game I could see them capitalizing on this more than if they just offer pay 2 play. Because in the end this is more about why the 73% of gamers are not playing MMOs right now! Is it the pay to play models that all AAA MMOs currently demand or is it something else? Depending on what that answer is, will greatly determine if Bioware can bring in New Blood and maintain it.
Yes I know the Broadband statistics are impressive, but that really is not what matters. Since not all of those people are gamers and gamers not playing MMOs are the greatest recruitment pool for MMOs. Anyone that does not game currently that they get to play is gravy, but you do not build a business on that. Just like you do not build a business that sales coffee on people that do not drink coffee, so the more vital statistic is how many gamers are in the United States and how many are currently playing MMOs and that is information we know.
I am sure Bioware is looking at the same numbers as you do. In fact, the only reason that they have spent $150M is that there is a hugely untapped market there (73% who do not play MMOs).
That is the whole reason why Bioware is putting so much of their acclaimed storytelling into TOR. This certainly works well to capture the SP gaming market (just count their stream of hits).
I wanted to comment about this part in particular, so please correct me if it's out of context- but I believe this happened with WoW as well. IMO the players really wanted a successor to Diablo, but got this instead. It would explain how WoW has evolved more toward a lobby type game that a classic MMORPG. That being said, even if the exact gameplay desired isn't delivered- if the game is polished enough and has content that the players enjoy then they'll deal with it.
Of all genres of games I have played it seems MMOs can deliver either far less, or just different content than what was expected/advertised and players will still accept it.
You will probably never get a sandbox mmo from a big developer ,at least not the kind most of sandbox fans want - with ffa pvp,heavy death penalties,full loot,no quests etc but if sw:tor fails you will get a lot of cheap f2p games like co or star trek.Pure sandbox will never be a popular genre so no point in attacking aaa games and hoping they will fail,tor failing will not make darkfall more popular with mmo players.
Because lot of wow players,even if they like the themepark mmos, got bored with the game or annoyed with some developers choices.I was annoyed with wow even before tbc for their choice of making end game all about items and raids,the lack of quality questing ( killing 10 boars is not a quest),making crafting items lower in quality than instance drops,insane reputation grinding etc.So as long sw tor don't repeats those mistakes i will play it.If not there are quite a few decent f2p older games like lotr to avoid paying for another game made for hardcore raiding guilds.
I and I am sure others have already mentioned this. We know what happened after WoW, Rift is doing OK thats another tick in the box for keeping things llike WoW. So there needs to be an alternative MMO template that is a huge success to change the status quo.
Its not rocket science.
can someone scan that article from pc mag and post it here? thanks.
Which FF Character Are You?
Would be great if ToR is a brilliant success. While I don't know that it will have the impact the article states... I hope it makes an impact.
With all due respect for the so called "MMO developers" I don't think they actually understand anything about the MMORPGs industry, you just need to check all the "stuff" that came out after WoW.
And certainly doesn't surprise me their answer which is quite obvious coming from them, I am referring at the fact that if SWTOR is successful everyone will copy it.
They didn't have to say that, since everyone can see that it is exactly what they did since WoW took over the market.
To add to that, I can safely say that SWTOR won't change the MMO industry, because it is too heavily quested and too story driven, it will be too similar to a single player RPG to succeed as a long term option.
It will sell an awful lot of boxes because it is made by Bioware, and it is a Star Wars IP, probably it will sell even more than Mass Effect, but where SWTOR will fail is to keep a steady number of subscriptions.
I can finish a Bioware RPG in less than a month, after that, if they want me to stay subscribed for more, every month they need to update fresh content which is unlikable (It takes roughly a year to create a month content).
Apart for the storyline the rest of the game will be a WoW clone, so there is hardly a revolution going on there.
After a couple of months when people have done with the content and rolled their third Alt, they will find out they are basically playing a single player game, cause no one will want to do group stuff (too busy questing)
Of course is my opinion, but generally I get it right, because I don't hate/love games, so I don't get too emotional about a MMO like many people do nowadays.
I suppose it's wrong of me, but this makes me really want TOR to fail. Or even to just "fail" ie: only get a few hundred thousand subs.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
No .. that is a TYPICAL bioware SP game content. They already said there is like 7x more content than a typical bioware game. So that will be 6-7 months before you can finish it.
If that is on average, then they will be getting box price + 6 months of sub ~ $40+6*$15 = $130. If they sell 2M, they will be able to make money even if no one sub more than 6 months.
Given Bioware's track record (just see how many ME2 has sold), selling 2M does not seem to be an unattentable target.
And thats where you're missing, what the developers said the game currently offers. As a placeholder, you're adding your opinion of what you think the game is trying to be.
While your personal story can be solo'd all the way through, thats where the single player content stops (save for maybe some crafting ---though very minimal as the top items require collaboration ---- and off hand exploring --- though you likely would find content while exploring that you couldn't complete alone like world bosses, elite mobs, etc.)
I think everyone will be surprised, BioWare fans, TOR doubters, and console gamers new to the MMORPG genre. You may start with going through your personal story, and soloing through it, but you'll quickly find (likely even before you leave the starter world, but definitely when you hit the 2nd world) that you'll be brought into areas with situations that will require grouping. To finish just 1 single player story slated at 200+ hours of content (which alone will take 2 - 3 months with 3 - 4 hours a day of playtime.) and to never reroll, you still have hundreds of hours of PvE content you missed before you even get into PvP, crafting, space combat, or anything else really.
The biggest detriment to SWTOR right now, is the vast amount of misinformation people have on the game. They think its a WoW clone, when in fact, the only thing it cloned from WoW is the ability to take everything other games had, and improve on it. Thats exactly what they did. Combat - Improved. Crafting - Improved. World Design - Improved. Character Progression - Improved. Class Choices/Hybridization - Improved. Questing - 10X Improved. And most importantly for a new MMO, they have the content to backup all of these things.
I think you're wrong, for several reasons.
Bear with me:
- there's various groups of MMO gamers with different preferences and dislikes, so it's very well possible that a feature that one group of MMO gamers finds exciting another group of MMO gamers will dislike or be indifferent about, and vice versa.
- in the same way it stands to reason that for any MMO gamer who has grown bored or tired of themepark MMO's ('WoW clones') and its standard mechanics, another MMO gamer or maybe 3 or 4 MMO gamers still can find fun and enjoyment in those.
- the dominant success of themepark MMO's, even when excluding WoW, compared with other MMO subgenres, shows that still the majority of MMO gamers can find fun in it. LotrO managed to keep 200-300k subs for years, even AoC with its disastrous launch still had 400k subs after 3-4 months. Rift which is extremely close to the WoW-styled themepark format is received extremely well.
- the new styled story CATA quests received a lot of positive comments of MMO gamers, they were liked a lot more than the former standard WoW quests.
- the problem with the two former points is, even if MMO gamers can enjoy themepark MMO's with its questing and such, there has to be enough for them to do for longer than 2-3 months. As you saw with WoW, if MMO gamers liked the new questing but aren't in to raiding, then a lot of them will become inactive again or unsub when they reached level cap.
- As various statements said, SWTOR's various leveling and questing content is absurdly much and dwarfs other MMO's: as stated, each story chapter of a class is far longer than a KOTOR game, 200 hours in total, so that's not like playing 1 KOTOR game but like playing 5 KOTOR games. And that's just for 1 of 8 Classes, and only talking about Class Quest content, World Quests, Flashpoints, World Arcs not included. It's World Quests that's said to be the majority of the quest content, not the Class Quest content.
- So, questing or leveling content won't exactly be the problem, especially since SWTOR's questing content will be of a higher quality than traditional MMO quest content. For those who can enjoy the leveling process and questing in a KOTOR/ME kind of way, they'll have 1600 hours of Class Quest content and even more in World Quest content to take their pick from, enough to keep them entertained for many months to come.
- Of course, just like with other MMO's, the game changes when you reach level cap. For the group of MMO gamers who care little for the leveling process, who dislike alts and who're mainly focused on the endgame content, it'll have to be the World Arcs, the War zones, the open world pvp, crafting, the Flashpoints and the raid dungeons in SWTOR that will determine whether they plan to stick around or not. Only time will tell if that's enough. The same applies to whether all the endgame content has been already revealed or not, only time can tell.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Guild Wars 2 hasn't exactly released what's going on yet. Who knows? It just might be a good sandbox.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
Tor hasnt releases yet either. That said we know what tor is gonna be. Give bioware credit. We all know its a themepark mmo, with race class limitations. We know the space combat is a mini game that will give u rewards that will alllow u to upgrade your ship which will be your bank and home.
We know its gonna be alot like wow with voice over and an emphasis on story. Bioware is gonna bring back rpg to the mmorpg. Granted its gonna be a gm controlled type of rpg but its gonna be a legit rpg. With its emphasis on story and choices change how your story goes and how the world reacts to u.
Sure it may not be a revoloutionary new idea that changes the mmo industry forever. But any fan of tor knows all this. We arent expecting the game to re invent the genre.
I t hink this is why gw 2 fans will be so upset. They fully expect gw 2 to not only be the most innovative mmo in yrs but to change the way mmos are made and re invent the genre.
Gw 2 will have quests from what ive read. its just some of those quests u walk up to a town its being invaded and u hav to stop the invasion if u dont stop it the town becomes taken over by invaders or u stop it and the town returns to normal for most part. This is the kinda stuff ive read about gw 2.
They arent getting rid of quests altogether just changing how they are picked up and where. instead of a centralized quest hub u will run into the quests and have to do them. That may be a new spin but its not exacly getting rid of or re inventing the genre.
Im not saying it wont be cool and fell cool . I love phasing in wow for most part. Im just saying people who expect what a game may not deliever are the ones who leave . Tor fans should knwo what they are getting and what to expect by now.
Sure it isnt gonna reinvent the genre but they are putting an emphasis on story and choice. They may not be reinventing the wheel but they arent claiming they are gonna do things that they wont deliever either.
I don't think innovation or "changing the genre" is what it cracks up to be.
I would much rather a game that is well implemented and have attention to details.
Like Bioware games, the key is good writing, good design so i can enjoy the game ... whether it changes the genre or not .. i don't care.
Imho SWTOR will be a bright success with subs beyond 1 million.
Story IS a big thing in a MMORPG, not the only thing but i enjoyed Tortage so much with its smaller story and can only speculate how much bigger SWTOR will be.
SWTOR will improve anything you know from the common modern MMO - its all said and posted.
MMOs must not be the single dimensional focussed game only for PvPer, PvEer, Grinder, Quester, Crafter, Explorer, Socializer etc. a real MMO is that big that there can be a place for many styles.
I mean the engine is set, the world is there, how much more is the work to offer different content for different tastes as long the engine supports it?
In the end i would like very much a good hybrid MMORPG (NOT FPS) that offers Lore, Story, Raid, Sandbox, the different PvP-styles in specific parts of the world.
If you have the laid the foundation right a MMO is a place where you can offer many variety and get as much crowd as possible to pay the sub.
I hope also The Secret World will do good bcs i want go away from levels and class restrictions to more choices and no nerfing bcs its up to the player to find the most fun build, the most dps/hps build or whatever.
Fuck Balancing!!!!! (in the means of making everything the same)
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM