The advice I would give you is read how to win friends and influence people, it might help you understand why other people are hostile to your advice. In the end it mostly comes down to the fact that unless we are seeking advice or we are put into a state that we will accept the advice, human beings are very hostile to criticism. Here is the points from how to win friends and influence people:
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
A leader's job often includes changing your people's attitudes and behavior. Some suggestions to accomplish this:
Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
Let the other person save face.
Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be "hearty in your approbation and lavish in your praise."
Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
Make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest.
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong. Anyway, like I wrote in my previous post, there's usually no time to have a lenghty conversation - especially text based. You'd really have to put those 9 points into just 2 or 3.
I know what you mean, but there just isn't time for motivating and handholding!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The advice I would give you is read how to win friends and influence people, it might help you understand why other people are hostile to your advice. In the end it mostly comes down to the fact that unless we are seeking advice or we are put into a state that we will accept the advice, human beings are very hostile to criticism. Here is the points from how to win friends and influence people:
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
A leader's job often includes changing your people's attitudes and behavior. Some suggestions to accomplish this:
Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
Let the other person save face.
Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be "hearty in your approbation and lavish in your praise."
Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
Make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest.
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong. Anyway, like I wrote in my previous post, there's usually no time to have a lenghty conversation - especially text based. You'd really have to put those 9 points into just 2 or 3.
I know what you mean, but there just isn't time for motivating and handholding!
As a King, a leader of people; a paragon of a nation- Quirhid, you're absolutely right about Slappy's list here.
It's not that easy and really you have to be more flexible than that.
For gaming my list consists of this;
1) Question yourself first, are you sure what you're going to say is as effective as you believe? If you are absolute, it'll show in your language and instill confidence on the tactic.
2) DO NOT COMMAND PEOPLE! Command the situation. You don't have to give directions outright, again word things for the situation. "3 trying to flank, incoming to B, going to need some DPS there." DPS knows who they are, and you risk sending everyone there. But it'll happen.
3) Most people will follow your walk more than they'll follow your talk. Typing, voice, hand gestures- 20% of the whole command. The other 80% is actually doing it. It doesn't hurt to ask (Can 2 people follow me over here to do this?) Be brief, be plain, then execute it and prove your point. That'll lead them in the right direction.
Work as a team in these games. No one's getting a salary bonus for being an uber bad ass nerd at the end of the day.
I've come to find people don't mind advice that is tactical, ie: If you feint attack in this direction and move around your target there will be an opening. A lot of people will give you the old "Wow, I had no idea I could make that move, thanks. The advice that they don't want is how their character should be built and rightfully so. Many people have built their characters the way they want them not how someone else thinks they should be. The problem with mmos is that there is only one "correct" build and all others are shunned which is really ruining the genre.
Best thing to do is give tactical advice and stay away from character build advice unless asked.
I know my characters in games are built a certain way because that is the way that I want them. Whether I am gimping my characters or not I don't really care. I am playing a game the way I want to play it. I want them that way because I am rping them to carry a certain weapon combo and such. Although I'm not a crazy rper where I speak the language and stuff but it is minor rping of what I envision my character type and style being. Where as you come in telling me I am wrong for wanting to play my character the way I want.
Eventually mmos will just be a set of numbers in front of us and be seen as a mathmatical problem rather than just playing the game, which is sad.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
As a King, a leader of people; a paragon of a nation- Quirhid, you're absolutely right about Slappy's list here.
It's not that easy and really you have to be more flexible than that.
For gaming my list consists of this;
1) Question yourself first, are you sure what you're going to say is as effective as you believe? If you are absolute, it'll show in your language and instill confidence on the tactic.
2) DO NOT COMMAND PEOPLE! Command the situation. You don't have to give directions outright, again word things for the situation. "3 trying to flank, incoming to B, going to need some DPS there." DPS knows who they are, and you risk sending everyone there. But it'll happen.
3) Most people will follow your walk more than they'll follow your talk. Typing, voice, hand gestures- 20% of the whole command. The other 80% is actually doing it. It doesn't hurt to ask (Can 2 people follow me over here to do this?) Be brief, be plain, then execute it and prove your point. That'll lead them in the right direction.
Work as a team in these games. No one's getting a salary bonus for being an uber bad ass nerd at the end of the day.
I don't give advice if I'm unsure myself.
Why "...or else we'll lose" is not a good enough reason?
And I'm all down with leading from the front than from the back. However even if you do show good example, because of the nature of random matches, you may not see those same people afterwards.
I don't look for a boost to my e-peen - I just want to win. I'm OK with losing if I lose against a better opponent. What I don't like is losing because of a team that was absolutely horrid.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The point forgotton in this topic is some people play the games for just chilling out. Look from his point of view; he takes crap from his boss all day long, he listens wife's whining when he comes back to home, his kids screaming around the house, or his parents just giving him crap about the life, ... more examples can be written like this but I think you get the point. Now this kind of guys last need is your advice, because he doesn't play the game for its success, he just wants to chill out, push that 123123123123123 and does not actually look what he is doing. Is he gonna ruin your gaming experience? He doesn't care. This kinda guys are actually consisting off the majority of the online players. You shouldn't wait all of the players to be an intellectuel member of the online gaming community. What this comes to is, playing "only" with your friend (pre-mades) will make you happier. Isn't this one of the reasons why guilds exists anyway?
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong. Anyway, like I wrote in my previous post, there's usually no time to have a lenghty conversation - especially text based. You'd really have to put those 9 points into just 2 or 3. I know what you mean, but there just isn't time for motivating and handholding!
In anything you do it can be seen as manipulation, it is the intent of the person that matters.
Originally posted by Quirhid
The language bit is definitely true. Long conversations in the chat are tedious to write and tedious to read. And everyone gets written text a bit differently. Depends on your culture etc. However I'm pretty sure I could convice most people to my point of view on voice chat, but usually people refuse to use it and in the case of random matches, it is not an option. From my voice, they could hear that I mean good. And it gives me an opportunity to immediately check my listener's understanding and correct myself if need be.
Oh I see here, you are trying to use voice chat to manipulate people into thinking the same way you do. See I can do it too! The difference between manipulation and trying to help someone is the intent of the person doing the said deed. If you do it only for your benefit then it is manipulation.
Anyway great job at jumping to conclusions without reading the book or knowing what the author stands for.
Originally posted by twodayslate
Ahh, demeaning managerial tactics. Anyone who has had a job in this piss poor capitalist nation can see straight through that before you even get to the second step. Such approaches only work on the less intelligent, and only serve to cause those immune to it to hate you even more.
Really managerial tactics is all you see? I suppose you know this from the thousands of people you lead on day to day bases? I would say this is a prime example of advice not needed or should of never been given. Because the only thing I see is someone of low intelligence bad mouthing something they do not understand. Ah yes it is so much fun to be judge mental and critical without trying to understand the other persons point of you, I can see why you do it.
The point forgotton in this topic is some people play the games for just chilling out. Look from his point of view; he takes crap from his boss all day long, he listens wife's whining when he comes back to home, his kids screaming around the house, or his parents just giving him crap about the life, ... more examples can be written like this but I think you get the point. Now this kind of guys last need is your advice, because he doesn't play the game for its success, he just wants to chill out, push that 123123123123123 and does not actually look what he is doing. Is he gonna ruin your gaming experience? He doesn't care. This kinda guys are actually consisting off the majority of the online players. You shouldn't wait all of the players to be an intellectuel member of the online gaming community. What this comes to is, playing "only" with your friend (pre-mades) will make you happier. Isn't this one of the reasons why guilds exists anyway?
Very true. I find myself playing more and more only with people I already know and can rely upon. Even if you don't care much how good or bad you're doing, I don't think it is a reason to be hostile to someone who gives you advice. "Thanks but no thanks" would be fine or "I'm just here to chill" would be good enough excuse for me.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong. Anyway, like I wrote in my previous post, there's usually no time to have a lenghty conversation - especially text based. You'd really have to put those 9 points into just 2 or 3. I know what you mean, but there just isn't time for motivating and handholding!
In anything you do it can be seen as manipulation, it is the intent of the person that matters.
Originally posted by Quirhid
The language bit is definitely true. Long conversations in the chat are tedious to write and tedious to read. And everyone gets written text a bit differently. Depends on your culture etc. However I'm pretty sure I could convice most people to my point of view on voice chat, but usually people refuse to use it and in the case of random matches, it is not an option. From my voice, they could hear that I mean good. And it gives me an opportunity to immediately check my listener's understanding and correct myself if need be.
Oh I see here, you are trying to use voice chat to manipulate people into thinking the same way you do. See I can do it too! The difference between manipulation and trying to help someone is the intent of the person doing the said deed. If you do it only for your benefit then it is manipulation.
Anyway great job at jumping to conclusions without reading the book or knowing what the author stands for.
What conclusions? You lost me there.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I dont mind advice as long as its not pointing out that i should change my entire build to something that plays completely different. I used to play WOW and my hunter has ALWAYS been survival. I had the uber traps,etc. Whem someone comes up and says "go mm youl do more damage" itll piss me off o.O because i play my hunter 90% because of my pet and traps, etc. If someone tells me to roll a mage for CC ill bite back by saying i can cc 3 enemies at the same Time n stuff.
but if someone actually sees my playstyle and has something that i could use to compliment my playstyle and they say it in a non hostile, non passive aggressive way, ill look into it. But im not going to listen to some guy who tells me to change my builds and try a completely different playstyle -.-
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong.
But I don't try to conciously manipulate them. I'm just trying to make my message across. I guess manipulating is manipulating whatever your intention then?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Depends on what each player is trying to achieve and how pathetic he is
1)If i play a competitive rts and i am playing seriously i will already be one of the top players and will know everything about the metagame, stats, strategies. Advices from lower players are worthless and many times stupid because they dont know how to play competitively. When you are on the top there are no advices, you know what happens, you know what made you lose, you know everything about the game. You can theorytest every single advice/strategy and see its possible result taking into account most of factors/variables. Obviously i am talking about multiplayer
2)Now if i am playing an fps for lulz, i wont care at all about the little kid who cant win and blames the team for that. When i play for lulz i might use horribly ineffective builds and still win just for lulz. I am not gonna change my current funny build to use the op build so the little kid can feel less shity about how much he sucks. I simply dont care about the weak public team, i just want to kill pplz for my personal fun and i dont care about boring objectives because they dont provide enough"win"
And thats why noneone should expect teamwork from a public game, only clans have that
3)Sometimes even when playing competitive i have some dignity and i WONT resort to obviously overpowered build orders who losers love since it makes them win by pressing 1 button. Thats the main reason i dont like the pro rule "use what wins".
4)griefing lulz, that is also another case, people might enter a game just to annoy others and fuck with them xD, they will use the most ineffective build order in purpose and do stupid things so they can make you rage at them or give them advice, and then they will reply back in rage/ignorance just to increase the duration of their lulz xD, conclusion is that you fail if you fall for that
Generally i believe most "screw ur advice, i win" is in case 2, because thats why some people simply dont care about it.And just want to play for fun. The case 3 doesnt come untill you have reached case 1, if someone is saying that they dont like it because it is overpowered and arent a top player they are probably saying that because they lost to 3 to many times and now believe its broken.
The person called you troll because for him those buffs/debuffs work, or he believes they work, or you havent seen something specific on those buffs. I dont believe it has anything to do with advice, he just didnt believe you. Its the same thing like saying that god doesnt exist to a christian xD
Ahh, demeaning managerial tactics. Anyone who has had a job in this piss poor capitalist nation can see straight through that before you even get to the second step. Such approaches only work on the less intelligent, and only serve to cause those immune to it to hate you even more.
Really managerial tactics is all you see? I suppose you know this from the thousands of people you lead on day to day bases? I would say this is a prime example of advice not needed or should of never been given. Because the only thing I see is someone of low intelligence bad mouthing something they do not understand. Ah yes it is so much fun to be judge mental and critical without trying to understand the other persons point of you, I can see why you do it.
Those types of books are written and priased by Ayn Rand types who view the mark as some sort of rodent who they can exploit as a means to an end. Real, self-respecting humans prefer honesty and straightforwardness, not underhanded, rogue-level manipulation. If that style of running a guild works for you, then by all means enjoy, but I truly feel sorry for those that pretend to follow you. Yes, pretend. Loyalty borne of that kind of blatantly insulting methodology is nothing but an illusion; people under that system, unless they share the exact same beliefs about controlling other humans, will jump ship with blinding speed if given a better option.
There is also the intuition sparked by that all-too-familiar condescending smiley face stuck behind a passive agressive insult, the usage of which says more about your personality than you might think. It leads me to believe that you have been trained to employ this "leadership" style in a real life (likely business) setting. If that is indeed the case, you need to collect your family and walk off a cliff.
But I don't try to conciously manipulate them. I'm just trying to make my message across. I guess manipulating is manipulating whatever your intention then?
OK let me make this simple for you, I made my post, then you made the following post:
Originally posted by Quirhid
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong.
Then I made the comment about jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts, since you have not read the book and do not know anything about the author. Now do you understand why I said great job jumping to conclusions?
Originally posted by twodayslate
Those types of books are written and priased by Ayn Rand types who view the mark as some sort of rodent who they can exploit as a means to an end. Real, self-respecting humans prefer honesty and straightforwardness, not underhanded, rogue-level manipulation. If that style of running a guild works for you, then by all means enjoy, but I truly feel sorry for those that pretend to follow you. Yes, pretend. Loyalty borne of that kind of blatantly insulting methodology is nothing but an illusion; people under that system, unless they share the exact same beliefs about controlling other humans, will jump ship with blinding speed if given a better option.
There is also the intuition sparked by that all-too-familiar condescending smiley face stuck behind a passive agressive insult, the usage of which says more about your personality than you might think. It leads me to believe that you have been trained to employ this "leadership" style in a real life (likely business) setting. If that is indeed the case, you need to collect your family and walk off a cliff.
Oh so one person you know of says this, so then they all must be like that. That is great deductive reasoning their buddy. I am so glad you know the minds of every author out there that wrote a book to try and help people. I am sure to you Og Mandino was a horrible person too, that was purely evil. After all according to you, since one of them is they all are.
I am so glad you know me so well, and know all my friends are pretending to care about me. And yes you figured me out I am trying to control my friends! You are such a smart person, I wish I had your brain power to stereotype people and judge them without any real facts. You are right the smile face does teach me one thing, you do not understand sarcasm. Anyway good luck on your bigotry and stereotypes, I hope they make you have a happy life.
As for the walking off the cliff, dude back the hell off do not attack me or my family. Start acting you age!
From my prospective it is the min/max mentality to gaming and game design that is killing genre. Rift is a prime example. We'll give you 9 souls to customize your character but if you don't play x,y,z or maybe w,x,y your chance of survival or getting groups are minimum. Or and I'll use cleric as a example if you don't go up to 51 points in x or y soul your healing will be gimped to the point that you can't main heal.
From my prospective it is the min/max mentality to gaming and game design that is killing genre. Rift is a prime example. We'll give you 9 souls to customize your character but if you don't play x,y,z or maybe w,x,y your chance of survival or getting groups are minimum. Or and I'll use cleric as a example if you don't go up to 51 points in x or y soul your healing will be gimped to the point that you can't main heal.
Feels like the entire genre needs to be on meds.
This. One reason I've mostly stopped playing MMOs. LOTRO is still good though, for the most part, people are a lot less min/max mentality than they are in some other MMOs. Not like the old days in UO/AC/SWG...sure there were "builds"...but you could play the way YOU WANTED TO PLAY...no one expected someone else to play how they wanted them to play. And now like the quoted poster said...its all about this lame min/max mentality.
At least Singleplayer RPGs are still damn good (for the most part).
Check out my nature/animal/relaxing music channel on Youtube!
I don't know... in GW (where gave advice aswell) I played in one of the most prestigious guilds and come to think of it... people took my advice better then.
I have no problem taking advice myself. None at all. But people in Rift still argue against you when you show them from a DPS tracking program how bad their original build is. These guys would refuse to change their DPS builds when the tracking shows them doing about the same amount of damage as the group's tank for god's sake.
One thing I don't do is say "told you so" when they eventually do something wrong. That would wrong on my part.
Let's test your ability to take advice. If you are you are using a DPS tracker to play Rift you are doing it wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Team fails a raid - check DPS tracker - we see a reason why. How is that wrong? The program shows the efficiency of your healers and DPS. Gives feedback on how the group is doing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Generally, the people who want the advice don't need it because they've done the research and some experimentation..
The people that 'need' the advice don't want it because they want to play the way their subscription fee entitles them to. Don't worry though, most of these people aren't trying to be in hardcore guilds, teams, or groups with you. They're laughing when they kill teammates with friendly fire. They're chasing down the mind controlled allies and killing them knowing the attempt will be a wipe. Uninformed players aren't in hardcore guilds and they aren't trying to be. They can't stand the mindset that we advice-givers embrace.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
But I don't try to conciously manipulate them. I'm just trying to make my message across. I guess manipulating is manipulating whatever your intention then?
OK let me make this simple for you, I made my post, then you made the following post:
Originally posted by Quirhid
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong.
Then I made the comment about jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts, since you have not read the book and do not know anything about the author. Now do you understand why I said great job jumping to conclusions?
It is good to be learned and read books. Very few people these days have time and will to read books.
However if you know facts, maybe it would be better to share them other than just spitting on people who haven't read the book?
The following may be a prime example how people take written messages differently. Written text is not a good mode of communication.
Could you put it another way?
I understand if you don't want to explain yourself again.
shit... I cant do this. You certainly don't use these methods youself if you're trying to give advice to me. Why are you defensive about this book of yours? There's plenty of theories how to lead people and I'm sure they're all more or less true.
In a game often there just isn't time to develop a relationship your "guidelines" suggest.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Generally, the people who want the advice don't need it because they've done the research and some experimentation..
The people that 'need' the advice don't want it because they want to play the way their subscription fee entitles them to. Don't worry though, most of these people aren't trying to be in hardcore guilds, teams, or groups with you. They're laughing when they kill teammates with friendly fire. They're chasing down the mind controlled allies and killing them knowing the attempt will be a wipe. Uninformed players aren't in hardcore guilds and they aren't trying to be. They can't stand the mindset that we advice-givers embrace.
I get it. And sometimes there's people who will gladly take advice. They want someone more "hardcore" to give them a ready-to-use build.
The question still remains: Why people get hostile and negative when they're given advice? What makes them act this way?
Like in the Shogun example:
Me: By the way, those speed buffs/debuffs don't work. Retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't.
Player: stfu you TROLL!
Me: ok then.
Many other incidents were just like this. One of my friend's experience:
Friend: Ok, you have the correct build. You just need to use these skills..."
Player: Fuck off! <quits group in the middle of a dungeon>
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Generally, the people who want the advice don't need it because they've done the research and some experimentation..
The people that 'need' the advice don't want it because they want to play the way their subscription fee entitles them to. Don't worry though, most of these people aren't trying to be in hardcore guilds, teams, or groups with you. They're laughing when they kill teammates with friendly fire. They're chasing down the mind controlled allies and killing them knowing the attempt will be a wipe. Uninformed players aren't in hardcore guilds and they aren't trying to be. They can't stand the mindset that we advice-givers embrace.
I get it. And sometimes there's people who will gladly take advice. They want someone more "hardcore" to give them a ready-to-use build.
The question still remains: Why people get hostile and negative when they're given advice? What makes them act this way?
Like in the Shogun example:
Me: By the way, those speed buffs/debuffs don't work. Retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't.
Player: stfu you TROLL!
Me: ok then.
Many other incidents were just like this. One of my friend's experience:
Friend: Ok, you have the correct build. You just need to use these skills..."
Player: Fuck off!
I think i wrote everything in my last post but heres a little more info.
in the first example the player thought you were trying to trick him and because his faith on the systems was 2 high he wouldnt believe you no matter what. Ppl also never like understanding that they are wrong or their current way of life is wrong. They dont like change
In the second case is the same thing as my case number #2 in my last post. I want to play for lulz, i dont want to play the effective build so you can win your petty objective that doesnt give ME any win or ego boost....
I personally hate stupid serious groups that go omg we must be the best and start becoming like the army where u have an idiot leader shoutting all the time because he wants to win the siege.(although its fun ignoring him when you know you cant be kicked from clan since you are one of the important members xD). I play games for win and the funny community, funny skilled players that are there to talk/play with in group pvp and other thinks. I loved one of my lineage 2 clans, cool people, joking, being skilled, gathering in sieges or mass pvp because EVERYONE wanted pvp PERSONALLY, not some idiot commanding it.*
I dont want a stupid leader that thinks he is awesome because he is inside a "hardcore" guild that does pve and thinks they are top players that kill "epicly hard epicly intelligent ai" and dont suck in real life xD
* Ah beautiful moment. Someone was leveling at antharas cave and someone killed him, then people from ym clan went to help and killed the killer, now the killers clan goes there and attacks my clan, then both clans with all their members teleport to antharas cave and start chaotic pvp. how beautiful
Comments
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong. Anyway, like I wrote in my previous post, there's usually no time to have a lenghty conversation - especially text based. You'd really have to put those 9 points into just 2 or 3.
I know what you mean, but there just isn't time for motivating and handholding!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
unwanted advice it's much like fresh manure, it's good for nothing and only stinks.
Manure in itself is extremely useful, but only in the proper place and at the proper time.
this is why the old saying goes "learned people have knowledge, but wise people know how and when to apply that knowledge."
As a King, a leader of people; a paragon of a nation- Quirhid, you're absolutely right about Slappy's list here.
It's not that easy and really you have to be more flexible than that.
For gaming my list consists of this;
1) Question yourself first, are you sure what you're going to say is as effective as you believe? If you are absolute, it'll show in your language and instill confidence on the tactic.
2) DO NOT COMMAND PEOPLE! Command the situation. You don't have to give directions outright, again word things for the situation. "3 trying to flank, incoming to B, going to need some DPS there." DPS knows who they are, and you risk sending everyone there. But it'll happen.
3) Most people will follow your walk more than they'll follow your talk. Typing, voice, hand gestures- 20% of the whole command. The other 80% is actually doing it. It doesn't hurt to ask (Can 2 people follow me over here to do this?) Be brief, be plain, then execute it and prove your point. That'll lead them in the right direction.
Work as a team in these games. No one's getting a salary bonus for being an uber bad ass nerd at the end of the day.
Would you appreciate my advice more if I would make a template out of those 9 points and just change key phrases and words to fit the situation?
I can see it right now...
Me: Hello! Nice staff you have there. I used to play with a build like that but then I found and I did lot better after that. ...
You: But I'm a warrior.
Me: Oh, my bad. Hold on a sec. I need to change few things...
Me: Hello! Nice sword you have there. I used to play...
Just kidding ofcourse.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I've come to find people don't mind advice that is tactical, ie: If you feint attack in this direction and move around your target there will be an opening. A lot of people will give you the old "Wow, I had no idea I could make that move, thanks. The advice that they don't want is how their character should be built and rightfully so. Many people have built their characters the way they want them not how someone else thinks they should be. The problem with mmos is that there is only one "correct" build and all others are shunned which is really ruining the genre.
Best thing to do is give tactical advice and stay away from character build advice unless asked.
I know my characters in games are built a certain way because that is the way that I want them. Whether I am gimping my characters or not I don't really care. I am playing a game the way I want to play it. I want them that way because I am rping them to carry a certain weapon combo and such. Although I'm not a crazy rper where I speak the language and stuff but it is minor rping of what I envision my character type and style being. Where as you come in telling me I am wrong for wanting to play my character the way I want.
Eventually mmos will just be a set of numbers in front of us and be seen as a mathmatical problem rather than just playing the game, which is sad.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I don't give advice if I'm unsure myself.
Why "...or else we'll lose" is not a good enough reason?
And I'm all down with leading from the front than from the back. However even if you do show good example, because of the nature of random matches, you may not see those same people afterwards.
I don't look for a boost to my e-peen - I just want to win. I'm OK with losing if I lose against a better opponent. What I don't like is losing because of a team that was absolutely horrid.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The point forgotton in this topic is some people play the games for just chilling out. Look from his point of view; he takes crap from his boss all day long, he listens wife's whining when he comes back to home, his kids screaming around the house, or his parents just giving him crap about the life, ... more examples can be written like this but I think you get the point. Now this kind of guys last need is your advice, because he doesn't play the game for its success, he just wants to chill out, push that 123123123123123 and does not actually look what he is doing. Is he gonna ruin your gaming experience? He doesn't care. This kinda guys are actually consisting off the majority of the online players. You shouldn't wait all of the players to be an intellectuel member of the online gaming community. What this comes to is, playing "only" with your friend (pre-mades) will make you happier. Isn't this one of the reasons why guilds exists anyway?
Or...
dont wanna hear it... dont want to feel embarassed or what not.
Kain_Dale
In anything you do it can be seen as manipulation, it is the intent of the person that matters.
Oh I see here, you are trying to use voice chat to manipulate people into thinking the same way you do. See I can do it too! The difference between manipulation and trying to help someone is the intent of the person doing the said deed. If you do it only for your benefit then it is manipulation.
Anyway great job at jumping to conclusions without reading the book or knowing what the author stands for.
Really managerial tactics is all you see? I suppose you know this from the thousands of people you lead on day to day bases? I would say this is a prime example of advice not needed or should of never been given. Because the only thing I see is someone of low intelligence bad mouthing something they do not understand. Ah yes it is so much fun to be judge mental and critical without trying to understand the other persons point of you, I can see why you do it.
Very true. I find myself playing more and more only with people I already know and can rely upon. Even if you don't care much how good or bad you're doing, I don't think it is a reason to be hostile to someone who gives you advice. "Thanks but no thanks" would be fine or "I'm just here to chill" would be good enough excuse for me.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What conclusions? You lost me there.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Time n stuff.
but if someone actually sees my playstyle and has something that i could use to compliment my playstyle and they say it in a non hostile, non passive aggressive way, ill look into it. But im not going to listen to some guy who tells me to change my builds and try a completely different playstyle -.-
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
this......
But I don't try to conciously manipulate them. I'm just trying to make my message across. I guess manipulating is manipulating whatever your intention then?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Depends on what each player is trying to achieve and how pathetic he is
1)If i play a competitive rts and i am playing seriously i will already be one of the top players and will know everything about the metagame, stats, strategies. Advices from lower players are worthless and many times stupid because they dont know how to play competitively. When you are on the top there are no advices, you know what happens, you know what made you lose, you know everything about the game. You can theorytest every single advice/strategy and see its possible result taking into account most of factors/variables. Obviously i am talking about multiplayer
2)Now if i am playing an fps for lulz, i wont care at all about the little kid who cant win and blames the team for that. When i play for lulz i might use horribly ineffective builds and still win just for lulz. I am not gonna change my current funny build to use the op build so the little kid can feel less shity about how much he sucks. I simply dont care about the weak public team, i just want to kill pplz for my personal fun and i dont care about boring objectives because they dont provide enough"win"
And thats why noneone should expect teamwork from a public game, only clans have that
3)Sometimes even when playing competitive i have some dignity and i WONT resort to obviously overpowered build orders who losers love since it makes them win by pressing 1 button. Thats the main reason i dont like the pro rule "use what wins".
4)griefing lulz, that is also another case, people might enter a game just to annoy others and fuck with them xD, they will use the most ineffective build order in purpose and do stupid things so they can make you rage at them or give them advice, and then they will reply back in rage/ignorance just to increase the duration of their lulz xD, conclusion is that you fail if you fall for that
Generally i believe most "screw ur advice, i win" is in case 2, because thats why some people simply dont care about it.And just want to play for fun. The case 3 doesnt come untill you have reached case 1, if someone is saying that they dont like it because it is overpowered and arent a top player they are probably saying that because they lost to 3 to many times and now believe its broken.
The person called you troll because for him those buffs/debuffs work, or he believes they work, or you havent seen something specific on those buffs. I dont believe it has anything to do with advice, he just didnt believe you. Its the same thing like saying that god doesnt exist to a christian xD
Those types of books are written and priased by Ayn Rand types who view the mark as some sort of rodent who they can exploit as a means to an end. Real, self-respecting humans prefer honesty and straightforwardness, not underhanded, rogue-level manipulation. If that style of running a guild works for you, then by all means enjoy, but I truly feel sorry for those that pretend to follow you. Yes, pretend. Loyalty borne of that kind of blatantly insulting methodology is nothing but an illusion; people under that system, unless they share the exact same beliefs about controlling other humans, will jump ship with blinding speed if given a better option.
There is also the intuition sparked by that all-too-familiar condescending smiley face stuck behind a passive agressive insult, the usage of which says more about your personality than you might think. It leads me to believe that you have been trained to employ this "leadership" style in a real life (likely business) setting. If that is indeed the case, you need to collect your family and walk off a cliff.
OK let me make this simple for you, I made my post, then you made the following post:
Originally posted by Quirhid
That sounds like I should... conciously try to manipulate them. And that just, to me, seems kinda wrong.
Then I made the comment about jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts, since you have not read the book and do not know anything about the author. Now do you understand why I said great job jumping to conclusions?
Oh so one person you know of says this, so then they all must be like that. That is great deductive reasoning their buddy. I am so glad you know the minds of every author out there that wrote a book to try and help people. I am sure to you Og Mandino was a horrible person too, that was purely evil. After all according to you, since one of them is they all are.
I am so glad you know me so well, and know all my friends are pretending to care about me. And yes you figured me out I am trying to control my friends! You are such a smart person, I wish I had your brain power to stereotype people and judge them without any real facts. You are right the smile face does teach me one thing, you do not understand sarcasm. Anyway good luck on your bigotry and stereotypes, I hope they make you have a happy life.
As for the walking off the cliff, dude back the hell off do not attack me or my family. Start acting you age!
From my prospective it is the min/max mentality to gaming and game design that is killing genre. Rift is a prime example. We'll give you 9 souls to customize your character but if you don't play x,y,z or maybe w,x,y your chance of survival or getting groups are minimum. Or and I'll use cleric as a example if you don't go up to 51 points in x or y soul your healing will be gimped to the point that you can't main heal.
Feels like the entire genre needs to be on meds.
This. One reason I've mostly stopped playing MMOs. LOTRO is still good though, for the most part, people are a lot less min/max mentality than they are in some other MMOs. Not like the old days in UO/AC/SWG...sure there were "builds"...but you could play the way YOU WANTED TO PLAY...no one expected someone else to play how they wanted them to play. And now like the quoted poster said...its all about this lame min/max mentality.
At least Singleplayer RPGs are still damn good (for the most part).
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Team fails a raid - check DPS tracker - we see a reason why. How is that wrong? The program shows the efficiency of your healers and DPS. Gives feedback on how the group is doing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Look at it this way--
Generally, the people who want the advice don't need it because they've done the research and some experimentation..
The people that 'need' the advice don't want it because they want to play the way their subscription fee entitles them to. Don't worry though, most of these people aren't trying to be in hardcore guilds, teams, or groups with you. They're laughing when they kill teammates with friendly fire. They're chasing down the mind controlled allies and killing them knowing the attempt will be a wipe. Uninformed players aren't in hardcore guilds and they aren't trying to be. They can't stand the mindset that we advice-givers embrace.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
It is good to be learned and read books. Very few people these days have time and will to read books.
However if you know facts, maybe it would be better to share them other than just spitting on people who haven't read the book?
The following may be a prime example how people take written messages differently. Written text is not a good mode of communication.
Could you put it another way?
I understand if you don't want to explain yourself again.
shit... I cant do this. You certainly don't use these methods youself if you're trying to give advice to me. Why are you defensive about this book of yours? There's plenty of theories how to lead people and I'm sure they're all more or less true.
In a game often there just isn't time to develop a relationship your "guidelines" suggest.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I get it. And sometimes there's people who will gladly take advice. They want someone more "hardcore" to give them a ready-to-use build.
The question still remains: Why people get hostile and negative when they're given advice? What makes them act this way?
Like in the Shogun example:
Me: By the way, those speed buffs/debuffs don't work. Retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't.
Player: stfu you TROLL!
Me: ok then.
Many other incidents were just like this. One of my friend's experience:
Friend: Ok, you have the correct build. You just need to use these skills..."
Player: Fuck off! <quits group in the middle of a dungeon>
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think i wrote everything in my last post but heres a little more info.
in the first example the player thought you were trying to trick him and because his faith on the systems was 2 high he wouldnt believe you no matter what. Ppl also never like understanding that they are wrong or their current way of life is wrong. They dont like change
In the second case is the same thing as my case number #2 in my last post. I want to play for lulz, i dont want to play the effective build so you can win your petty objective that doesnt give ME any win or ego boost....
I personally hate stupid serious groups that go omg we must be the best and start becoming like the army where u have an idiot leader shoutting all the time because he wants to win the siege.(although its fun ignoring him when you know you cant be kicked from clan since you are one of the important members xD). I play games for win and the funny community, funny skilled players that are there to talk/play with in group pvp and other thinks. I loved one of my lineage 2 clans, cool people, joking, being skilled, gathering in sieges or mass pvp because EVERYONE wanted pvp PERSONALLY, not some idiot commanding it.*
I dont want a stupid leader that thinks he is awesome because he is inside a "hardcore" guild that does pve and thinks they are top players that kill "epicly hard epicly intelligent ai" and dont suck in real life xD
* Ah beautiful moment. Someone was leveling at antharas cave and someone killed him, then people from ym clan went to help and killed the killer, now the killers clan goes there and attacks my clan, then both clans with all their members teleport to antharas cave and start chaotic pvp. how beautiful
Uh, I dont give advice unless asked about it. Or unless its really necessary, like when we face a bossmonster.