I personally hate stupid serious groups that go omg we must be the best and start becoming like the army where u have an idiot leader shoutting all the time because he wants to win the siege.(although its fun ignoring him when you know you cant be kicked from clan since you are one of the important members xD). I play games for win and funny community, funny skilled players that are there to talk/play with in group related stuff. I dont want a stupid leader that thinks he is awesome because he is inside a "hardcore" guild that does pve and thinks they are good players that dont suck in real life xD
Do you notice how you're forming a negative image of those people you don't like to listen to or play with? In this last bit and your last post. We're just people like you. I just think that if you're not playing to win, why not play at all? The competition is part of the fun. Same with raids, if you're in a raid group, why not try to get to the end?
EDIT: I don't like playing chess against a guy who lets me win. That way I don't learn anything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I personally hate stupid serious groups that go omg we must be the best and start becoming like the army where u have an idiot leader shoutting all the time because he wants to win the siege.(although its fun ignoring him when you know you cant be kicked from clan since you are one of the important members xD). I play games for win and funny community, funny skilled players that are there to talk/play with in group related stuff. I dont want a stupid leader that thinks he is awesome because he is inside a "hardcore" guild that does pve and thinks they are good players that dont suck in real life xD
Do you notice how you're forming a negative image of those people you don't like to listen to or play with? In this last bit and your last post. We're just people like you. I just think that if you're not playing to win, why not play at all? The competition is part of the fun. Same with raids, if you're in a raid group, why not try to get to the end?
The last part of my post was my personal opinion.
Everyone in a game is playing to feel better, aka ego boost aka to the masses as "FUN"...
Personalyl i want to do something that requires skill, thats why i always like pvp. I never liked pve, i found it boring, pathetic attempt to make me feel better as well as pre-determined so it doesnt make me feel any better yet many games FORCE it to the players.
Pve imo has no skill simply because you can create an algorithm that can do it alone. when an algorithm a line of PRE-DETERMINED commands can do raids there is no skill and even the most stupid person can do it just by reading a guide. Pvp always has a percent of unpredictability since you are fighting another intelligent being(well that only counts for 10% of the pvp encounters) that will try to win using his brains.
(and thats why i have no respect for "hardcore" pve players who think they are awesome")
Now why i dont like serious lets say pvp clans
1)the pvp they do is usually one sided with no unpredictability element since you are pretty much "raping" the other group with plans. There is no skill in most of these fights unless you are fighting an equally skilled clan
2)Leaders that think they are commanders are stupid and a annoying, caps lock raging on the chat or hearing them scream and getting mad at teampeak simply proves it. (I so much loved ignoring the leader untill she stopped using caps locks).
3)I want to win, i dont want the leader to win unless my goal is the same as his.
What i want in a clan
1)Skilled players(not everyone but most of them should know how to play the game effectively,this requiring no advice), i have no problem helping lower skilled players that admit they dont know how to play.(watching noobs posting strategy guide because they win the Ai are pathetic and stupid and i facepaw everysingle time)
2)Funny players that say internet stuff like memes,(i even like trolls since they at least arent that stupid and get mad at everything)
3)same goal, we want to get a castle sometime, we want to be one of the biggest clans in the server.
We say when siege is happening and everyone who wants to come in he can come and help, we could say a few important thinks before we start, like dangerous thinks to avoid, entrances and paths and then we move in. Everyone has the important information, everyone knows everything and there is no need for shouting like a stupid person
If people have brains there is no need for further communication, you know what will happen and what you should do if you want to get the castle, noneone is forcing anyone. If something goes wrong we are not stupid to get mad and cry.
Really the answer to your main question is really simple, people want to win for themselves, they dont like someone else forcing them do something they dont find fun or they simply dont like taking orders.
I don't know... in GW (where gave advice aswell) I played in one of the most prestigious guilds and come to think of it... people took my advice better then.
I have no problem taking advice myself. None at all. But people in Rift still argue against you when you show them from a DPS tracking program how bad their original build is. These guys would refuse to change their DPS builds when the tracking shows them doing about the same amount of damage as the group's tank for god's sake.
One thing I don't do is say "told you so" when they eventually do something wrong. That would wrong on my part.
Let's test your ability to take advice. If you are you are using a DPS tracker to play Rift you are doing it wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Team fails a raid - check DPS tracker - we see a reason why. How is that wrong? The program shows the efficiency of your healers and DPS. Gives feedback on how the group is doing.
Venger said it perfectly,
"From my prospective it is the min/max mentality to gaming and game design that is killing genre. Rift is a prime example. We'll give you 9 souls to customize your character but if you don't play x,y,z or maybe w,x,y your chance of survival or getting groups are minimum. Or and I'll use cleric as a example if you don't go up to 51 points in x or y soul your healing will be gimped to the point that you can't main heal.
Feels like the entire genre needs to be on meds."
I dunno, maybe you're right, the design of Rift is such that there is only "one" way to win a raid fight, and if you're missing one of the elements, (15000 net DPS, 6000 net Heals, etc) there's no way to win the fight. If so, then you're probably doing it right after all.
I like to think however there's more than one way to win a fight, but perhaps not, MMO's may have devolved into simple math and in that case there's not really much reason to play in my way of thinking. (Probably why I've given up raiding these days)
And bringing it back to your OP, that might be the problem, in your opinion the reason for a raid failure is because a certain person didn't spec a certain way, meanwhile, they may have successfully completed the same raid content with the exact same build, therefore if the raid fails they may attribute the loss to something else, perhaps even the advice giver's leadership. So when that same person gives advice, its resented rather than appreciated.
Also, another thing to be careful with is how you dispense advice. There's a huge difference between telling a person, "your build is really incorrect, you need to change it to this" versus saying "you know, I've found that in this particular situation, a good build to use is XYZ along with PDQ."
Not sure how you approach giving your advice, you mentioned being ex-military, where people follow "orders" because they have to, and I've found in belonging to guilds with lots of ex-military they tend to come off that way a lot. For civilians that never flys, we only do things that we understand and agree to. No way to run a military of course, but these are games and we're playing them for fun, not efficiency, which is likely different that your goals perhaps.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Haha thats why i stoped to care about other ppl or guide noobs when all of them think they know everything. In older mmorpgs it was common to give newer players advise or get advises from older players and i appreciated always a good advise that helped me.
Nowdays in games like LoL,WoW or Starcraft 2 i say them directly if they are anoying that they suck and should stop to play and they could never beat me and 99% its true a scrub isnt playing to get better he is in his own naive world.
Recently I've noticed that when you give people advice in multiplayer games their immediate response is usually very negative or even hostile. Some people clearly don't want any advice when they play. None. Few of my friends play Rift and they've somewhat complained that when they're trying to give advice to people what build best suits the group at any given time, they are met with hostility and rage quits.
I've noticed this behavior most recently in Shogun 2: Total War's multiplayer too. My friend and I tested some of the game mechanics and noticed that any buffs or debuffs to unit's speed do not work, retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't work. I thought that it is easy enough to believe since the game has oh so many bugs and broken multiplayer anyways. But when I got into a match where my opponent was using these debuffs/buffs and told him this, he called me a troll.
In World of Tanks when you tell them how they should play their tank's strengths rather than doing what they do, the usual response comes out: F U! Normally I wouldn't care what they do, but when whole teams success is resting on their effort, I have to say something.
I don't know if the advice is taken wrong but I see a pattern here since my firends get the same response when they give advice.
What do you think?
I handle it like the Elves from Tolkien. An Elf never gives an advise by himself, and you never should ask, for he will say one way and the other.
Reality is... complex. Giving advise is a difficult thing. It gives you a weight of responsibility. A weight I don't want to share. I try not to give advise ever, especially not if not asked. I consider it rude when someone gives me advise when I haven't asked.
My great fictional hero is Feanor from the Silmarillion. He always made his own way, for good or ill and didn't do what someone else told him. Better a fool by one's own decision than smartass on someone else's shoulder, I say.
If you need to cooperate in a team, its of course something different. You must then say all your observations of strategy, for it would be illogical to hold back insights. Still, it is a matter of HOW you say it. Do you say it like a mere observation like "I think xyz does not work because xyz, what do you think" or do you say "man, you are so doing it wrong! Now do it like I do!".
And one more thing: No one likes to be corrected in public. No one.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Let me put it the best and simpelist way I can think of - until you pay for their subscription, keep your advice to yourself.
This.
You're asking for an argument giving out unsolicited advice. You don't know the persons' motives. Yes, it could be because they're new and don't know any better. Or they can be a veteran and experimenting. Or they can be doing something just for shiggles and don't care about min / maxing.
I've learned to be skeptical of advice I receive in games. For example I recently created an alt in Eve and it automatically throws you in the New Player (or whatever it's called) channel. Reading that channel for a few minutes, as a veteran, I've realized a large percentage of the people offering advice don't know what the hell they're talking about.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Recently I've noticed that when you give people advice in multiplayer games their immediate response is usually very negative or even hostile. Some people clearly don't want any advice when they play. None. Few of my friends play Rift and they've somewhat complained that when they're trying to give advice to people what build best suits the group at any given time, they are met with hostility and rage quits.
I've noticed this behavior most recently in Shogun 2: Total War's multiplayer too. My friend and I tested some of the game mechanics and noticed that any buffs or debuffs to unit's speed do not work, retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't work. I thought that it is easy enough to believe since the game has oh so many bugs and broken multiplayer anyways. But when I got into a match where my opponent was using these debuffs/buffs and told him this, he called me a troll.
In World of Tanks when you tell them how they should play their tank's strengths rather than doing what they do, the usual response comes out: F U! Normally I wouldn't care what they do, but when whole teams success is resting on their effort, I have to say something.
I don't know if the advice is taken wrong but I see a pattern here since my firends get the same response when they give advice.
What do you think?
Thats is indeed a serious problem these days and its not only limited to giving advice also things like helping out people they just dont say anything back anymore or thank you, or when you wanne give stuff they ask for more lol.
They realy should educate kids maybe even adults again, social behavior and respect.
Anonymous behind there pc with no risk spew filth trash and behave like jerks bah thats these days reality how people socially behave ingame or even on forums:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Nobody likes unsolicited advice, anywhere. Try walking up to someone on the street who is doing something that you have experience in, and cold-calling them with a tip. You'll probably get a similar response.
If someone adice in a friendly way or normal way is not unsocialized and surtenly no reason to be rude or response with such replys on internet or in RL, you lack social skills if you react like that.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
It is good to be learned and read books. Very few people these days have time and will to read books.
However if you know facts, maybe it would be better to share them other than just spitting on people who haven't read the book?
The following may be a prime example how people take written messages differently. Written text is not a good mode of communication.
Could you put it another way?
I understand if you don't want to explain yourself again.
shit... I cant do this. You certainly don't use these methods youself if you're trying to give advice to me. Why are you defensive about this book of yours? There's plenty of theories how to lead people and I'm sure they're all more or less true.
In a game often there just isn't time to develop a relationship your "guidelines" suggest.
Well I wasn’t really trying attack you, there is a reason why I was bringing this up. Personally I do not care what you think about me or the things I read and learn. I was doing it to prove a point. And yes I know there are a lot of books and theories on how to lead people and they all have their place in certain environments.
See I was giving you advice that in the end you did not want or need, and in the end you acted out of frustration. Now do you see why some of the people in game would do it to you? What it took me 3 posts, and I already had you retaliating to what I posted. If advice is not sought people are going to act just the way you did here on this board. So maybe instead of giving people advice when they are not looking for it, bite your tongue, then when they ask share your experience. Believe it or not most people on this earth do not care what you and your friends know, only you and your friends care about that.
Or you can keep giving your advice that is not wanted and have people retaliate against it, and keep making forum post wondering why it is happening.
Nobody likes unsolicited advice, anywhere. Try walking up to someone on the street who is doing something that you have experience in, and cold-calling them with a tip. You'll probably get a similar response.
If someone adice in a friendly way or normal way is not unsocialized and surtenly no reason to be rude or response with such replys on internet or in RL, you lack social skills if you react like that.
Your response to the advice that one should be prepared for less than positive responses to unsolicited advice is amusing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Recently I've noticed that when you give people advice in multiplayer games their immediate response is usually very negative or even hostile. Some people clearly don't want any advice when they play. None. Few of my friends play Rift and they've somewhat complained that when they're trying to give advice to people what build best suits the group at any given time, they are met with hostility and rage quits.
I've noticed this behavior most recently in Shogun 2: Total War's multiplayer too. My friend and I tested some of the game mechanics and noticed that any buffs or debuffs to unit's speed do not work, retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't work. I thought that it is easy enough to believe since the game has oh so many bugs and broken multiplayer anyways. But when I got into a match where my opponent was using these debuffs/buffs and told him this, he called me a troll.
In World of Tanks when you tell them how they should play their tank's strengths rather than doing what they do, the usual response comes out: F U! Normally I wouldn't care what they do, but when whole teams success is resting on their effort, I have to say something.
I don't know if the advice is taken wrong but I see a pattern here since my firends get the same response when they give advice.
What do you think?
I think that you and your friends should give advice when asked. I am one of those players that when somebody tells me what I should do, I will tell them something about their mommy.
Give me advice only when I ask for it, or stop complaining that people get in your face!
I had some guy just like you telling me in Rift what build I should do, to have some healing, while I was aiming at the max DPS I could have. Everybody is a freaking expert, except the guy that actually plays the class?
Generally, the people who want the advice don't need it because they've done the research and some experimentation..
The people that 'need' the advice don't want it because they want to play the way their subscription fee entitles them to. Don't worry though, most of these people aren't trying to be in hardcore guilds, teams, or groups with you. They're laughing when they kill teammates with friendly fire. They're chasing down the mind controlled allies and killing them knowing the attempt will be a wipe. Uninformed players aren't in hardcore guilds and they aren't trying to be. They can't stand the mindset that we advice-givers embrace.
I get it. And sometimes there's people who will gladly take advice. They want someone more "hardcore" to give them a ready-to-use build.
The question still remains: Why people get hostile and negative when they're given advice? What makes them act this way?
Like in the Shogun example:
Me: By the way, those speed buffs/debuffs don't work. Retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't.
Player: stfu you TROLL!
Me: ok then.
Many other incidents were just like this. One of my friend's experience:
Friend: Ok, you have the correct build. You just need to use these skills..."
Player: Fuck off!
In both your examples, people that you don't regularly play with reacted negatively.
They feel like paying a subscription fee entitles them to play, within the ToS, however they feel like. Some--like ninjas, griefers and trolls--will even flirt with offending the ToS.
That's about the best answer I think you're going to get: They pay the same fee, and in totally different ways are having as much fun as you. In your case, where a mechanic isn't working and you're just trying to be helpful.. They've seen the just trying to be helpfu approach before and it ends in some guy trying to respec their toon. If the devs released a bulletin with the same information, these "for fun" people would be ok with it.
I'm not against you either, I'm the same type that will give advice when I think it will benefit someone but most people react negatively and they're very often in a more casual guild.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
I think that you and your friends should give advice when asked. I am one of those players that when somebody tells me what I should do, I will tell them something about their mommy.
Give me advice only when I ask for it, or stop complaining that people get in your face!
I had some guy just like you telling me in Rift what build I should do, to have some healing, while I was aiming at the max DPS I could have. Everybody is a freaking expert, except the guy that actually plays the class?
You have to think their side of the story too.
Let's say you're in a group with my friends. They see from the DPS tracker that you're their weakest link. Shouldn't they first give you a chance to fix your build before they kick you out? 'Cause don't be fooling yourself - If you're not changing your build to something more useful, like healing, so that some other character can respec for better damage, you will be kicked. Usually people save them the trouble by leaving before that. But they are only doing it for the good of the group. It is nothing personal. Nothing that warrants hostile or aggressive response.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Recently I've noticed that when you give people advice in multiplayer games their immediate response is usually very negative or even hostile. Some people clearly don't want any advice when they play. None. Few of my friends play Rift and they've somewhat complained that when they're trying to give advice to people what build best suits the group at any given time, they are met with hostility and rage quits.
I've noticed this behavior most recently in Shogun 2: Total War's multiplayer too. My friend and I tested some of the game mechanics and noticed that any buffs or debuffs to unit's speed do not work, retainer, skill or otherwise. They just don't work. I thought that it is easy enough to believe since the game has oh so many bugs and broken multiplayer anyways. But when I got into a match where my opponent was using these debuffs/buffs and told him this, he called me a troll.
In World of Tanks when you tell them how they should play their tank's strengths rather than doing what they do, the usual response comes out: F U! Normally I wouldn't care what they do, but when whole teams success is resting on their effort, I have to say something.
I don't know if the advice is taken wrong but I see a pattern here since my firends get the same response when they give advice.
What do you think?
Is it advice? Or is it telling someone how to play? I know for my $15 I will play the game how I want to play. Now if someone else wants to foot the bill, then by all means, I will play it their way.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I usually find that the weakest link in a raid is the person that is worrying about what everyone else is doing. And I definately don't want advice I didn't ask for.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Back on the title of the thread: nobody wants your advice unless they specificaly ask for it.
Now.. you still don't get the aggro you get from your unsolicited input? You already got aggro in a forum thread, because people have encountered guys like you, that DEMAND a specific action. You are not talking about advice here, we all know your kind.
"DO THAT, DO THIS, or I will leave the group/kick you!"
You know what? By all means, leave and find a group that will take your commands. We are not in the military, we have paid for a game to enjoy it.
I think that you and your friends should give advice when asked. I am one of those players that when somebody tells me what I should do, I will tell them something about their mommy.
Give me advice only when I ask for it, or stop complaining that people get in your face!
I had some guy just like you telling me in Rift what build I should do, to have some healing, while I was aiming at the max DPS I could have. Everybody is a freaking expert, except the guy that actually plays the class?
You have to think their side of the story too.
Let's say you're in a group with my friends. They see from the DPS tracker that you're their weakest link. Shouldn't they first give you a chance to fix your build before they kick you out? 'Cause don't be fooling yourself - If you're not changing your build to something more useful, like healing, so that some other character can respec for better damage, you will be kicked. Usually people save them the trouble by leaving before that. But they are only doing it for the good of the group. It is nothing personal. Nothing that warrants hostile or aggressive response.
If you have a DPS tracker there is something wrong with you. I strongly suggest you only group with people you know and stay away from strangers.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I didn't realize that thinking the group before myself was so wrong. It's not my fault these games are designed in a way that the high end content need fine tuned group builds. Should they dumb it down so that virtually any build will do?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
you got the 99%er major player group and the 1%ers that play the right way and might even tell the normal moron how to play right instead of wrong.
but the majority of the 99% playing wrong will be offended, its simple dumb animal logic, when you try to correct a dumb animals bad behaivior its always going to shirk.
Man they are some advise you better keep for yourself sometime.
The worst kind of advises in an mmo are from the "pro-noob", you know those kind of guys that read everything about a game, but haven't played for more than few month and think they know everything apart from being relaxed and exchange nonsense and stupid things in the chat that make you smile. The advises from those guys usually get on your nerves.
Man they are some advise you better keep for yourself sometime.
The worst kind of advises in an mmo are from the "pro-noob", you know those kind of guys that read everything about a game, but haven't played for more than few month and think they know everything apart from being relaxed and exchange nonsense and stupid things in the chat that make you smile. The advises from those guys usually get on your nerves.
Hehe, I tend to be this guy. I like to read up a lot on whatever I am doing and really like to share what I know with other people. While there is nothing wrong with that, sometimes I find out that I really did not know what I was talking about and I am only annoying people. These days I try real hard to only talk about things I actually experienced myself.
I didn't realize that thinking the group before myself was so wrong. [It's not] It's not my fault these games are designed in a way that the high end content need fine tuned group builds. [True, but are you absolutely sure there is only "one" way? Or is there a challenge to be found to win with alternate builds?] Should they dumb it down so that virtually any build will do? [Yes. No seriously, yes. The fights should be constructed so alternate build models will succeed. MMO's began to fail when the Min/Max philosophy took over. Player skill should be able to overcome any laspes in build/gear. Not saying they are, just saying how they should be IMO]
You're a product of your environment, and you've bought into the model developers have been selling us in recent years. Unfortuately there are many players who don't agree and want to play the game "their way", and hey, they pay the money, right?
As mentioned, your only defense is to group with people who value the same thing as you, (DPS meters, raid efficencies, progression) and steer clear of people who might just be playing for fun or the challenge of seeing how alternate builds work in an encounter. (and hate DPS meters)
BTW, I'm not really implying you're wrong, there's just different ways to play these games and we all need to find a way to enjoy them. But as mentioned, caution offering free advice, no matter how well intentioned, is advised.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I didn't realize that thinking the group before myself was so wrong. It's not my fault these games are designed in a way that the high end content need fine tuned group builds. Should they dumb it down so that virtually any build will do?
Based on this I can tell the kind of advice you give and it isn't good nor do you present it well. Also, they should allow multiple builds and styles to succeed. An mmo is a total failure if you only have one build to choose from. To me that isn't an mmo, it's a math problem and hate math.
Like many of us have said before. Group with your friends and your guildmates. You should always be with likeminded people.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Comments
Do you notice how you're forming a negative image of those people you don't like to listen to or play with? In this last bit and your last post. We're just people like you. I just think that if you're not playing to win, why not play at all? The competition is part of the fun. Same with raids, if you're in a raid group, why not try to get to the end?
EDIT: I don't like playing chess against a guy who lets me win. That way I don't learn anything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The last part of my post was my personal opinion.
Everyone in a game is playing to feel better, aka ego boost aka to the masses as "FUN"...
Personalyl i want to do something that requires skill, thats why i always like pvp. I never liked pve, i found it boring, pathetic attempt to make me feel better as well as pre-determined so it doesnt make me feel any better yet many games FORCE it to the players.
Pve imo has no skill simply because you can create an algorithm that can do it alone. when an algorithm a line of PRE-DETERMINED commands can do raids there is no skill and even the most stupid person can do it just by reading a guide. Pvp always has a percent of unpredictability since you are fighting another intelligent being(well that only counts for 10% of the pvp encounters) that will try to win using his brains.
(and thats why i have no respect for "hardcore" pve players who think they are awesome")
Now why i dont like serious lets say pvp clans
1)the pvp they do is usually one sided with no unpredictability element since you are pretty much "raping" the other group with plans. There is no skill in most of these fights unless you are fighting an equally skilled clan
2)Leaders that think they are commanders are stupid and a annoying, caps lock raging on the chat or hearing them scream and getting mad at teampeak simply proves it. (I so much loved ignoring the leader untill she stopped using caps locks).
3)I want to win, i dont want the leader to win unless my goal is the same as his.
What i want in a clan
1)Skilled players(not everyone but most of them should know how to play the game effectively,this requiring no advice), i have no problem helping lower skilled players that admit they dont know how to play.(watching noobs posting strategy guide because they win the Ai are pathetic and stupid and i facepaw everysingle time)
2)Funny players that say internet stuff like memes,(i even like trolls since they at least arent that stupid and get mad at everything)
3)same goal, we want to get a castle sometime, we want to be one of the biggest clans in the server.
We say when siege is happening and everyone who wants to come in he can come and help, we could say a few important thinks before we start, like dangerous thinks to avoid, entrances and paths and then we move in. Everyone has the important information, everyone knows everything and there is no need for shouting like a stupid person
If people have brains there is no need for further communication, you know what will happen and what you should do if you want to get the castle, noneone is forcing anyone. If something goes wrong we are not stupid to get mad and cry.
Really the answer to your main question is really simple, people want to win for themselves, they dont like someone else forcing them do something they dont find fun or they simply dont like taking orders.
Venger said it perfectly,
"From my prospective it is the min/max mentality to gaming and game design that is killing genre. Rift is a prime example. We'll give you 9 souls to customize your character but if you don't play x,y,z or maybe w,x,y your chance of survival or getting groups are minimum. Or and I'll use cleric as a example if you don't go up to 51 points in x or y soul your healing will be gimped to the point that you can't main heal.
Feels like the entire genre needs to be on meds."
I dunno, maybe you're right, the design of Rift is such that there is only "one" way to win a raid fight, and if you're missing one of the elements, (15000 net DPS, 6000 net Heals, etc) there's no way to win the fight. If so, then you're probably doing it right after all.
I like to think however there's more than one way to win a fight, but perhaps not, MMO's may have devolved into simple math and in that case there's not really much reason to play in my way of thinking. (Probably why I've given up raiding these days)
And bringing it back to your OP, that might be the problem, in your opinion the reason for a raid failure is because a certain person didn't spec a certain way, meanwhile, they may have successfully completed the same raid content with the exact same build, therefore if the raid fails they may attribute the loss to something else, perhaps even the advice giver's leadership. So when that same person gives advice, its resented rather than appreciated.
Also, another thing to be careful with is how you dispense advice. There's a huge difference between telling a person, "your build is really incorrect, you need to change it to this" versus saying "you know, I've found that in this particular situation, a good build to use is XYZ along with PDQ."
Not sure how you approach giving your advice, you mentioned being ex-military, where people follow "orders" because they have to, and I've found in belonging to guilds with lots of ex-military they tend to come off that way a lot. For civilians that never flys, we only do things that we understand and agree to. No way to run a military of course, but these are games and we're playing them for fun, not efficiency, which is likely different that your goals perhaps.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Haha thats why i stoped to care about other ppl or guide noobs when all of them think they know everything. In older mmorpgs it was common to give newer players advise or get advises from older players and i appreciated always a good advise that helped me.
Nowdays in games like LoL,WoW or Starcraft 2 i say them directly if they are anoying that they suck and should stop to play and they could never beat me and 99% its true a scrub isnt playing to get better he is in his own naive world.
I handle it like the Elves from Tolkien. An Elf never gives an advise by himself, and you never should ask, for he will say one way and the other.
Reality is... complex. Giving advise is a difficult thing. It gives you a weight of responsibility. A weight I don't want to share. I try not to give advise ever, especially not if not asked. I consider it rude when someone gives me advise when I haven't asked.
My great fictional hero is Feanor from the Silmarillion. He always made his own way, for good or ill and didn't do what someone else told him. Better a fool by one's own decision than smartass on someone else's shoulder, I say.
If you need to cooperate in a team, its of course something different. You must then say all your observations of strategy, for it would be illogical to hold back insights. Still, it is a matter of HOW you say it. Do you say it like a mere observation like "I think xyz does not work because xyz, what do you think" or do you say "man, you are so doing it wrong! Now do it like I do!".
And one more thing: No one likes to be corrected in public. No one.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This.
You're asking for an argument giving out unsolicited advice. You don't know the persons' motives. Yes, it could be because they're new and don't know any better. Or they can be a veteran and experimenting. Or they can be doing something just for shiggles and don't care about min / maxing.
I've learned to be skeptical of advice I receive in games. For example I recently created an alt in Eve and it automatically throws you in the New Player (or whatever it's called) channel. Reading that channel for a few minutes, as a veteran, I've realized a large percentage of the people offering advice don't know what the hell they're talking about.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
If advice is not asked for, then none should be given. That should be common sense.
Thats is indeed a serious problem these days and its not only limited to giving advice also things like helping out people they just dont say anything back anymore or thank you, or when you wanne give stuff they ask for more lol.
They realy should educate kids maybe even adults again, social behavior and respect.
Anonymous behind there pc with no risk spew filth trash and behave like jerks bah thats these days reality how people socially behave ingame or even on forums:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
If someone adice in a friendly way or normal way is not unsocialized and surtenly no reason to be rude or response with such replys on internet or in RL, you lack social skills if you react like that.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Well I wasn’t really trying attack you, there is a reason why I was bringing this up. Personally I do not care what you think about me or the things I read and learn. I was doing it to prove a point. And yes I know there are a lot of books and theories on how to lead people and they all have their place in certain environments.
See I was giving you advice that in the end you did not want or need, and in the end you acted out of frustration. Now do you see why some of the people in game would do it to you? What it took me 3 posts, and I already had you retaliating to what I posted. If advice is not sought people are going to act just the way you did here on this board. So maybe instead of giving people advice when they are not looking for it, bite your tongue, then when they ask share your experience. Believe it or not most people on this earth do not care what you and your friends know, only you and your friends care about that.
Or you can keep giving your advice that is not wanted and have people retaliate against it, and keep making forum post wondering why it is happening.
Your response to the advice that one should be prepared for less than positive responses to unsolicited advice is amusing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that you and your friends should give advice when asked. I am one of those players that when somebody tells me what I should do, I will tell them something about their mommy.
Give me advice only when I ask for it, or stop complaining that people get in your face!
I had some guy just like you telling me in Rift what build I should do, to have some healing, while I was aiming at the max DPS I could have. Everybody is a freaking expert, except the guy that actually plays the class?
In both your examples, people that you don't regularly play with reacted negatively.
They feel like paying a subscription fee entitles them to play, within the ToS, however they feel like. Some--like ninjas, griefers and trolls--will even flirt with offending the ToS.
That's about the best answer I think you're going to get: They pay the same fee, and in totally different ways are having as much fun as you. In your case, where a mechanic isn't working and you're just trying to be helpful.. They've seen the just trying to be helpfu approach before and it ends in some guy trying to respec their toon. If the devs released a bulletin with the same information, these "for fun" people would be ok with it.
I'm not against you either, I'm the same type that will give advice when I think it will benefit someone but most people react negatively and they're very often in a more casual guild.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
You have to think their side of the story too.
Let's say you're in a group with my friends. They see from the DPS tracker that you're their weakest link. Shouldn't they first give you a chance to fix your build before they kick you out? 'Cause don't be fooling yourself - If you're not changing your build to something more useful, like healing, so that some other character can respec for better damage, you will be kicked. Usually people save them the trouble by leaving before that. But they are only doing it for the good of the group. It is nothing personal. Nothing that warrants hostile or aggressive response.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Is it advice? Or is it telling someone how to play? I know for my $15 I will play the game how I want to play. Now if someone else wants to foot the bill, then by all means, I will play it their way.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I usually find that the weakest link in a raid is the person that is worrying about what everyone else is doing. And I definately don't want advice I didn't ask for.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Back on the title of the thread: nobody wants your advice unless they specificaly ask for it.
Now.. you still don't get the aggro you get from your unsolicited input? You already got aggro in a forum thread, because people have encountered guys like you, that DEMAND a specific action. You are not talking about advice here, we all know your kind.
"DO THAT, DO THIS, or I will leave the group/kick you!"
You know what? By all means, leave and find a group that will take your commands. We are not in the military, we have paid for a game to enjoy it.
Spoil our fun at your own peril!
If you have a DPS tracker there is something wrong with you. I strongly suggest you only group with people you know and stay away from strangers.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I didn't realize that thinking the group before myself was so wrong. It's not my fault these games are designed in a way that the high end content need fine tuned group builds. Should they dumb it down so that virtually any build will do?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
So you think Rift isnt dumbed down?
There is your answer right there. I think it is second only to wow in duh factor
you got the 99%er major player group and the 1%ers that play the right way and might even tell the normal moron how to play right instead of wrong.
but the majority of the 99% playing wrong will be offended, its simple dumb animal logic, when you try to correct a dumb animals bad behaivior its always going to shirk.
Man they are some advise you better keep for yourself sometime.
The worst kind of advises in an mmo are from the "pro-noob", you know those kind of guys that read everything about a game, but haven't played for more than few month and think they know everything apart from being relaxed and exchange nonsense and stupid things in the chat that make you smile. The advises from those guys usually get on your nerves.
Hehe, I tend to be this guy. I like to read up a lot on whatever I am doing and really like to share what I know with other people. While there is nothing wrong with that, sometimes I find out that I really did not know what I was talking about and I am only annoying people. These days I try real hard to only talk about things I actually experienced myself.
You're a product of your environment, and you've bought into the model developers have been selling us in recent years. Unfortuately there are many players who don't agree and want to play the game "their way", and hey, they pay the money, right?
As mentioned, your only defense is to group with people who value the same thing as you, (DPS meters, raid efficencies, progression) and steer clear of people who might just be playing for fun or the challenge of seeing how alternate builds work in an encounter. (and hate DPS meters)
BTW, I'm not really implying you're wrong, there's just different ways to play these games and we all need to find a way to enjoy them. But as mentioned, caution offering free advice, no matter how well intentioned, is advised.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Based on this I can tell the kind of advice you give and it isn't good nor do you present it well. Also, they should allow multiple builds and styles to succeed. An mmo is a total failure if you only have one build to choose from. To me that isn't an mmo, it's a math problem and hate math.
Like many of us have said before. Group with your friends and your guildmates. You should always be with likeminded people.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.