Originally posted by kalinis it will be funny to see people trying to blame healer for dying when there is no healer lol. I can see it already dps dies blames healer then realizes should of healed self. Will be funny to see. Now fail dps that stand in crap will realize healers dont have unlimited resources and people who stand in crap and do idiotic stuff like think watching there threat isnt part of there job its only tanks job. Realize they die because they are just bad will be so much fun. Healers have a thankless job as do tanks so the one good thing getting rid of a dedicated healer will do is make all the idjits who blame healers for failing take a look in mirror and realize maybe they are reason group failed by forcing healer to use resources keepign them alive till they run out.
I traditionally play a healer, but I have to agree, and I have to say I am excited and eager to play a game where I can be a decent support class and still be versatile in other ways. The only class like that I can think of right now is the WoW paladin, and they are so terribly unbalanced that, when I played, I could easily take down monsters that should take five people of my level to kill. It is awful. Balancing without needing this ridiculous and arbitrary trinity bollocks can only have a positive effect on the genre.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Everyone pulling their own weight makes for a much better game. What it's hard for a person to heal themself? And even if they get taken down won't we be able to use a little team work to bring them back up?
Diablo isn't a totally dead on comparrison, but it is a game where people heal themselves while working with other to take down monsters in a dungeon in an action setting - and has that game been successful for online play? I'd say: YUP. I know guildwars will be more complex and challenging but you can see my point I hope.
Healers are a support that weighs the group down. They make grouping take longer. They cause wipes. They have more pressue put on them than other classes. The removal of them was the next evolution in MMOs.
Tanks too - what a tired concept. Tanking the boss aka being the real hero of the game while everyone else just pokes and prods and heals. Yawn. The thought of that gameplay makes me drousy.
We're all supposed to be heroes. We're all supposed to keep ourselves alive with evasion and tactical attacks and well timed self heals instead of relying on others. And we aren't all supposed to hide behind the mighty tank every fight either.
what your describing is actually fairly boring.. i can see the PVE aspects of this game being totally forgettable.. the only reason i can see, of playing the game.. is simply because of the PVP.. though hopefully it won't be spoiled by a bunch of players who think their rambo and can't work as part of a team..
well, you are always free to enjoy your WoW account for the next decade or so, because you dont seem like you want to try a new take on how mmorpgs could be done- you just want more of the same thing just with a different skin.
Changed that for you to help your point-of-view not seem so narrow-minded.
Just because you personally prefer a different approach to something, doesn't automatically mean it's how it "should be done" for everyone else.
It's that "If I like it, then everyone else should too" mentality that gets in the way of most conversations on forums like these. Too many people think their ideas of "how things should be" are "right" and everyone who disagrees is wrong.
Life is not that cut and dry, and that includes preferences in MMORPGs.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no.
There are two very important reasons for this!
Self heals.
You cannot target friendly players.
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have an area of effect heal which is equal in power to others.
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have crowd control abilities that are of equal effect.
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
Which I perfectly understand. I play GW. Even though there are two dedicated healers, all classes can heal and support others in some way.
GW already has much of this mechanic in place already. Eles can already drop zones of slow/block chance/elemental resist. Necros can exploit corpses for +regen.
What I am saying is, you will still have many, many people that play this game as a normal MMO. You will still have number crunchers who figure out what works best. When you play in a guild group, you'll have no problems what so ever.
But when random people group up to do a dungeon, you will have certain persons who choose to ignore the support roles in favor of spamming dps since they are a DPS first and nothing else. Removing healers won't fix why there are so few healers in other games. You'll still want someone who focuses on support first. You'll still want a heavy armor class focusing on tanking. You'll want a dps class in the group who focuses on control.
You will have people complaining. They may not say "Omg Mr Monk, heal me". Instead they will say, "Hey Necro, use your damn control skill", "Hey ele, use the water heal thingy, christ, you are only using flare/fire storm".
Rather then the burden placed on one person who most likely wants to heal, you are putting it on everyone to heal/control/support.
Just saying.
Oh, unless, of course, I am supposed to do everything solo. That doesn't sound fun .
You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no.
There are two very important reasons for this!
Self heals.
You cannot target friendly players.
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have an area of effect heal which is equal in power to others.
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have crowd control abilities that are of equal effect.
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
Which I perfectly understand. I play GW. Even though there are two dedicated healers, all classes can heal and support others in some way.
GW already has much of this mechanic in place already. Eles can already drop zones of slow/block chance/elemental resist. Necros can exploit corpses for +regen.
What I am saying is, you will still have many, many people that play this game as a normal MMO. You will still have number crunchers who figure out what works best. When you play in a guild group, you'll have no problems what so ever.
But when random people group up to do a dungeon, you will have certain persons who choose to ignore the support roles in favor of spamming dps since they are a DPS first and nothing else. Removing healers won't fix why there are so few healers in other games. You'll still want someone who focuses on support first. You'll still want a heavy armor class focusing on tanking. You'll want a dps class in the group who focuses on control.
You will have people complaining. They may not say "Omg Mr Monk, heal me". Instead they will say, "Hey Necro, use your damn control skill", "Hey ele, use the water heal thingy, christ, you are only using flare/fire storm".
Rather then the burden placed on one person who most likely wants to heal, you are putting it on everyone to heal/control/support.
Just saying.
Thats the way its supposed to be. Now people actually have to work together. People are supposed to switch weapon sets (attunements in ele's case) and change their playstyle in mid-combat so they can support each other and defeat their enemies.
The holy trinity doesn't allow that and its one guy healing, one guy tanking and the rest attacking the entire time.
You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no.
There are two very important reasons for this!
Self heals.
You cannot target friendly players.
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have an area of effect heal which is equal in power to others.
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have crowd control abilities that are of equal effect.
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
Which I perfectly understand. I play GW. Even though there are two dedicated healers, all classes can heal and support others in some way.
GW already has much of this mechanic in place already. Eles can already drop zones of slow/block chance/elemental resist. Necros can exploit corpses for +regen.
What I am saying is, you will still have many, many people that play this game as a normal MMO. You will still have number crunchers who figure out what works best. When you play in a guild group, you'll have no problems what so ever.
But when random people group up to do a dungeon, you will have certain persons who choose to ignore the support roles in favor of spamming dps since they are a DPS first and nothing else. Removing healers won't fix why there are so few healers in other games. You'll still want someone who focuses on support first. You'll still want a heavy armor class focusing on tanking. You'll want a dps class in the group who focuses on control.
You will have people complaining. They may not say "Omg Mr Monk, heal me". Instead they will say, "Hey Necro, use your damn control skill", "Hey ele, use the water heal thingy, christ, you are only using flare/fire storm".
Rather then the burden placed on one person who most likely wants to heal, you are putting it on everyone to heal/control/support.
Just saying.
Thats the way its supposed to be. Now people actually have to work together. People are supposed to switch weapon sets (attunements in ele's case) and change their playstyle in mid-combat so they can support each other and defeat their enemies.
The holy trinity doesn't allow that and its one guy healing, one guy tanking and the rest attacking the entire time.
People are supposed to work together under a trinity too....
The Tank is supposed to control mobs (weird!), the DPS is supposed to DPS, support (CC) and Control mobs (Offtank and the like). The heals just spam heals. So the only real part they are removing is the healing aspect from a few certain players in a much....should I say it? Sure! dumbed down version of healing. Ouch. It hurt to say that. Other classes already offer healing/Control/Support in GW1 as part of there class with a normal healer involved too.
Just instead of complaining that the healer isn't healing, you are complaining the supporter isn't supporting, or the controlling isn't controlling or the tank isn't doing enough of both. Sure, you can switch in combat to help do that, but you are still coming back to the same problem as the trinity.
I just think it's surprising if you think suddenly a "no trinity" system is going to work all that different from a trinity, and that people will treat the game and combat different then a trinity.
It's not a giant leap forward in how combat works relating to players. It's different names for the same things, and the removal of targeted heal in favor of hoping those dps that stand in fires will suddenly remember to press their Pixie dust of rejuvination +1 as they stand in that fire.
You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no.
There are two very important reasons for this!
Self heals.
You cannot target friendly players.
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have an area of effect heal which is equal in power to others.
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have crowd control abilities that are of equal effect.
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
Which I perfectly understand. I play GW. Even though there are two dedicated healers, all classes can heal and support others in some way.
GW already has much of this mechanic in place already. Eles can already drop zones of slow/block chance/elemental resist. Necros can exploit corpses for +regen.
What I am saying is, you will still have many, many people that play this game as a normal MMO. You will still have number crunchers who figure out what works best. When you play in a guild group, you'll have no problems what so ever.
But when random people group up to do a dungeon, you will have certain persons who choose to ignore the support roles in favor of spamming dps since they are a DPS first and nothing else. Removing healers won't fix why there are so few healers in other games. You'll still want someone who focuses on support first. You'll still want a heavy armor class focusing on tanking. You'll want a dps class in the group who focuses on control.
You will have people complaining. They may not say "Omg Mr Monk, heal me". Instead they will say, "Hey Necro, use your damn control skill", "Hey ele, use the water heal thingy, christ, you are only using flare/fire storm".
Rather then the burden placed on one person who most likely wants to heal, you are putting it on everyone to heal/control/support.
Just saying.
Thats the way its supposed to be. Now people actually have to work together. People are supposed to switch weapon sets (attunements in ele's case) and change their playstyle in mid-combat so they can support each other and defeat their enemies.
The holy trinity doesn't allow that and its one guy healing, one guy tanking and the rest attacking the entire time.
People are supposed to work together under a trinity too....
The Tank is supposed to control mobs (weird!), the DPS is supposed to DPS, support (CC) and Control mobs (Offtank and the like). The heals just spam heals. So the only real part they are removing is the healing aspect from a few certain players in a much....should I say it? Sure! dumbed down version of healing. Ouch. It hurt to say that. Other classes already offer healing/Control/Support in GW1 as part of there class with a normal healer involved too.
Just instead of complaining that the healer isn't healing, you are complaining the supporter isn't supporting, or the controlling isn't controlling or the tank isn't doing enough of both. Sure, you can switch in combat to help do that, but you are still coming back to the same problem as the trinity.
I just think it's surprising if you think suddenly a "no trinity" system is going to work all that different from a trinity, and that people will treat the game and combat different then a trinity.
It's not a giant leap forward in how combat works relating to players. It's different names for the same things, and the removal of targeted heal in favor of hoping those dps that stand in fires will suddenly remember to press their Pixie dust of rejuvination +1 as they stand in that fire.
I can tell you have little to no clue as to how GW2 will work. The plan is to avoid damage and make sure it never happens in the first place. You are still stuck in the mindset that combat is static and the only way to stay alive is to heal whatever damage you take.
I can tell you have little to no clue as to how GW2 will work. The plan is to avoid damage and make sure it never happens in the first place. You are still stuck in the mindset that combat is static and the only way to stay alive is to heal whatever damage you take.
The new generation of mmos coming out is more action-oriented. Tera is doing pretty much the same thing, Blade and Soul is doing pretty much the same thing, I've heard rumors that Dark Millenium might do something similar (mostly because the only 'healer' in 40k is maybe an apothecary).
SWTOR isn't new gen. It's following the current out-dated mode of gameplay mechanics.
People are supposed to work together under a trinity too....
The Tank is supposed to control mobs (weird!), the DPS is supposed to DPS, support (CC) and Control mobs (Offtank and the like). The heals just spam heals. So the only real part they are removing is the healing aspect from a few certain players in a much....should I say it? Sure! dumbed down version of healing. Ouch. It hurt to say that. Other classes already offer healing/Control/Support in GW1 as part of there class with a normal healer involved too.
Just instead of complaining that the healer isn't healing, you are complaining the supporter isn't supporting, or the controlling isn't controlling or the tank isn't doing enough of both. Sure, you can switch in combat to help do that, but you are still coming back to the same problem as the trinity.
I just think it's surprising if you think suddenly a "no trinity" system is going to work all that different from a trinity, and that people will treat the game and combat different then a trinity.
It's not a giant leap forward in how combat works relating to players. It's different names for the same things, and the removal of targeted heal in favor of hoping those dps that stand in fires will suddenly remember to press their Pixie dust of rejuvination +1 as they stand in that fire.
Well since you are running through GW1 dungeons for the first time, you should be able to see that even GW1 does not even work as you described. I have run slaver’s exile on hardmode with 4 Rits, 1 Necro, 1 Ranger, and 2 elementalists. Here were the build setup; first Rit ran a Signet of Spirts channeling damage build, second Rit ran a Signet of Ghostly Might communion damage build, third Rit ran a Soul twisting build focused on damage prevention and damage, 4 Rit ran a preservation build focused on healing and damage, the Ranger ran a barrage build with frozen soil and winter to prevent resections, first elementalist ran a searing flames build for DPS, second elementalist ran a savannah heat build for DPS, and I ran a spiteful sprit/Arcane echo build on my necromancer. (We completed Forgewight, Selvetarm, and Thommis with this PUG group)
Now if you look at those builds you will notice we did not have a tank or even a traditional healer for our group. The Rit with healing was a spot healer but our group depended more on the support provided by the ranger and the Rit with soul twisting. And guess what we were not complaining that the support was not doing their job; we worked as a team and learned how to beat the dungeon with our team setup (there is nothing about what we did that was dumbed down).
Now this is exactly what Guild Wars 2 is doing, they are allowing people to be flexible so they do not need a monk or a tank in order to complete a dungeon. I will say this I do agree with you that minmaxer are probably going to be doing the same cookie cutter routine, once they figure out what is supposable the best way to run a dungeon. But that will not stop me (non-Minmaxers) or any of the rest of the people that played GW1 from forming weird groups and having a blast.
its funny just watching this thread progress. its really just a never ending argument of open-minded people telling closed-minded people to be more open-minded and vice versa.
I'm guessing the open-minded people are the ones who agree with you and the closed-minded are the ones who don't agree?
I am willing to wait to see how they do it, but it looks to me that the Elementalist is going to be the one people bring along to pick up healing deficiencies....which is just relegating Elementalist into the "mediocre" healing role. Maybe pick up all elementalists and one tank-ish class.........hope you're playing an elementalist.
That's good to know. I won't ever have to load Healing Spring on my Ranger now. Thanks for the protip.
This is just another reason why groups will become even more a rare thing..
GW2 seems like it will be a true solo fest.
Atleast people will be running around you to make it feel like somewhat of an mmo.
I was thinking the same thing.
Seems the industry (at least in the Western market) is heading ever more and more toward "everyone is a self-sufficient island" in MMOs.
And true community is falling farther and farther into the background.
True community? Please define that for me.
I don't understand why your HERO shouldn't be self sufficient. They are a hero after all and to rely on a specific class just to get through the game and have fun in the game isn't fun at all - and not to mention not very heroic. You are disregarding the way GW2 will play out in terms of grouping: People wanting to help each other because everyone benefits. As in people running by you won't just run by you. They will stop and help randomly rather than queing for an instance and standing around town for a while.
Why are you disregarding the Guild Wars 2 set up? The Guardian class alone is fun based on helping others while Elementalists can have fun tossing out fire walls to enhance ranged players attacks. The potential is all there and I know in past MMOs I took pleasure in stopping to help others - without real incentive. Guild Wars 2 gives us that incentive. People will help each other out more than other MMOs because of the set up that givs everyone credit and rankings for participation in events.
This is just another reason why groups will become even more a rare thing..
GW2 seems like it will be a true solo fest.
Atleast people will be running around you to make it feel like somewhat of an mmo.
I was thinking the same thing.
Seems the industry (at least in the Western market) is heading ever more and more toward "everyone is a self-sufficient island" in MMOs.
And true community is falling farther and farther into the background.
True community? Please define that for me.
I don't understand why your HERO shouldn't be self sufficient. They are a hero after all and to rely on a specific class just to get through the game and have fun in the game isn't fun at all - and not to mention not very heroic. You are disregarding the way GW2 will play out in terms of grouping: People wanting to help each other because everyone benefits. As in people running by you won't just run by you. They will stop and help randomly rather than queing for an instance and standing around town for a while.
Why are you disregarding the Guild Wars 2 set up? The Guardian class alone is fun based on helping others while Elementalists can have fun tossing out fire walls to enhance ranged players attacks. The potential is all there and I know in past MMOs I took pleasure in stopping to help others - without real incentive. Guild Wars 2 gives us that incentive. People will help each other out more than other MMOs because of the set up that givs everyone credit and rankings for participation in events.
You type as if you actually played the game... have you?
Yeah everyone around you is going to be doing stuff to maybe benefit you and others,but I can see that it could still have that solo,alienated feel..
Why shouldnt your hero be able to take care of himself in every single situation? why would it even be an mmo then? that mentality just throws any kind of team work right out the window.
You might as well be playing some solo rpg with hired npc mercs at that point.
I don't understand why your HERO shouldn't be self sufficient. They are a hero after all and to rely on a specific class just to get through the game and have fun in the game isn't fun at all - and not to mention not very heroic. You are disregarding the way GW2 will play out in terms of grouping: People wanting to help each other because everyone benefits. As in people running by you won't just run by you. They will stop and help randomly rather than queing for an instance and standing around town for a while.
Why are you disregarding the Guild Wars 2 set up? The Guardian class alone is fun based on helping others while Elementalists can have fun tossing out fire walls to enhance ranged players attacks. The potential is all there and I know in past MMOs I took pleasure in stopping to help others - without real incentive. Guild Wars 2 gives us that incentive. People will help each other out more than other MMOs because of the set up that givs everyone credit and rankings for participation in events.
Even Hero's have a supporting cast. Let's say you have five friends in GW2 and you guy's want to go out and slay that dreaded dragon. Everything starts out fine and your having a good time, then the next thing you know there are 20 more people jumping in to kill it also, sure the mob will adjust to the influx of people but it will not be the same. The fight turns into one big zerg fest.
You might as well kiss those epic moments you had in the past with your friends goodbye because it's gonna be a "kill by committee game"
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
I'm fine with ArenaNet doing away with healers and buffers, as long as they remember what's really important.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Everyone will be playing as a group. Just because they aren't pigeon-holed into strict and unflexible roles doesn't mean they are going to be acting selfishly. In fact, that is exactly what the trinity does. The only person who actually helps the group in trinity combat is the healer. The tank is just holding mobs with taunts and damagers are just cycling through their skills. Usually neither the tank nor the damagers are supporting their allies in any way unless they have some sort of heal.
Does this mean the 25man raid won't be held up anymore by the Priestess who is having a bad day and as raid leader it is up to me to mollify their ego so the rest of us can play?
Neato!
And as a former healer this means I can play the game, look at the super cool awesome graphics and play the game instead of watching bars, playing whack-a-mole and listening to the sullen murmurs about how I wiped the raid because I didn't press the right key at the right time?
Does this mean the 25man raid won't be held up anymore by the Priestess who is having a bad day and as raid leader it is up to me to mollify their ego so the rest of us can play?
Neato!
And as a former healer this means I can play the game, look at the super cool awesome graphics and play the game instead of watching bars, playing whack-a-mole and listening to the sullen murmurs about how I wiped the raid because I didn't press the right key at the right time?
Even more neato. Wait, is neato a word?
It can be. Unfriend is officially a word but it wasn't until people started using it because of Facebook.
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Everyone will be playing as a group. Just because they aren't pigeon-holed into strict and unflexible roles doesn't mean they are going to be acting selfishly. In fact, that is exactly what the trinity does. The only person who actually helps the group in trinity combat is the healer. The tank is just holding mobs with taunts and damagers are just cycling through their skills. Usually neither the tank nor the damagers are supporting their allies in any way unless they have some sort of heal.
how are tanks and DPS not supporting their group?
without the tank,everyone pretty much dies..
without the dps,the mob doesnt die fast enough,the healer is tapped out of power/mana and the group eventually dies..
each class that makes up a group is a key to that groups success.
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Everyone will be playing as a group. Just because they aren't pigeon-holed into strict and unflexible roles doesn't mean they are going to be acting selfishly. In fact, that is exactly what the trinity does. The only person who actually helps the group in trinity combat is the healer. The tank is just holding mobs with taunts and damagers are just cycling through their skills. Usually neither the tank nor the damagers are supporting their allies in any way unless they have some sort of heal.
how are tanks and DPS not supporting their group?
without the tank,everyone pretty much dies..
without the dps,the mob doesnt die fast enough,the healer is tapped out of power/mana and the group eventually dies..
A group can survive with 4 damagers and a healer. A group can survive with 4 tanks and a healer. A group can't survive if there is no healer. The healer is the backbone of the group. The problem with that is that it elevates them to the most important position and basically means that everyone else is expendable. It doesn't matter if one of your damagers goes down, you will most likely complete what you were doing, just a little slower. You can survive if the tank goes down, sure it requires some frantic action to finish what you were doing and stay alive but its possible. Once the healer goes down though, you're SOL.
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Everyone will be playing as a group. Just because they aren't pigeon-holed into strict and unflexible roles doesn't mean they are going to be acting selfishly. In fact, that is exactly what the trinity does. The only person who actually helps the group in trinity combat is the healer. The tank is just holding mobs with taunts and damagers are just cycling through their skills. Usually neither the tank nor the damagers are supporting their allies in any way unless they have some sort of heal.
how are tanks and DPS not supporting their group?
without the tank,everyone pretty much dies..
without the dps,the mob doesnt die fast enough,the healer is tapped out of power/mana and the group eventually dies..
A group can survive with 4 damagers and a healer. A group can survive with 4 tanks and a healer. A group can't survive if there is no healer. The healer is the backbone of the group. The problem with that is that it elevates them to the most important position and basically means that everyone else is expendable. It doesn't matter if one of your damagers goes down, you will most likely complete what you were doing, just a little slower. You can survive if the tank goes down, sure it requires some frantic action to finish what you were doing and stay alive but its possible. Once the healer goes down though, you're SOL.
It all depends on what mmo youre playing..some mmo's would chew up a 4 dps 1 healer gorup.In some mmos an all tank group with no healer could survive as well if done right.
Is the healer the most important? probably..
but that doesnt mean every other class is meaningless.People aim for a well rounded group for a reason,becuase its the best,most efficient method for success.
if that DPS doesnt land his crowd control skill? that could easily be a wipe..
If that tank cant get his taunt off? also could just as easily be a wipe.
In GW2,if everyone is running around solo to each DE mindlessly spamming their skills...
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Everyone will be playing as a group. Just because they aren't pigeon-holed into strict and unflexible roles doesn't mean they are going to be acting selfishly. In fact, that is exactly what the trinity does. The only person who actually helps the group in trinity combat is the healer. The tank is just holding mobs with taunts and damagers are just cycling through their skills. Usually neither the tank nor the damagers are supporting their allies in any way unless they have some sort of heal.
how are tanks and DPS not supporting their group?
without the tank,everyone pretty much dies..
without the dps,the mob doesnt die fast enough,the healer is tapped out of power/mana and the group eventually dies..
A group can survive with 4 damagers and a healer. A group can survive with 4 tanks and a healer. A group can't survive if there is no healer. The healer is the backbone of the group. The problem with that is that it elevates them to the most important position and basically means that everyone else is expendable. It doesn't matter if one of your damagers goes down, you will most likely complete what you were doing, just a little slower. You can survive if the tank goes down, sure it requires some frantic action to finish what you were doing and stay alive but its possible. Once the healer goes down though, you're SOL.
It all depends on what mmo youre playing..some mmo's would chew up a 4 dps 1 healer gorup.In some mmos an all tank group with no healer could survive as well if done right.
Is the healer the most important? probably..
but that doesnt mean every other class is meaningless.People aim for a well rounded group for a reason,becuase its the best,most efficient method for success.
if that DPS doesnt land his crowd control skill? that could easily be a wipe..
If that tank cant get his taunt off? also could just as easily be a wipe.
In GW2,if everyone is running around solo to each DE mindlessly spamming their skills...
to me it just sounds pretty lame to be honest.
So all of a sudden everyone playing GW2 are going to be mindless idiots that don't know anything other than spam skills?
It seems to me that this isn't so much you being skeptical of the system as your are pessimist about not having the trinity. In trinity combat you can get by by having your healer mindlessly spamming heals, the tank mindlessly spamming taunts and the dps mindlessly spamming their attack skills. If you try to do that in GW2 you will most likely get facerolled.
I now see that you were imagining a group in the open world. I was using examples of groups running a dungeon. DEs in GW2 scale depending on how many people participate in each one and will get harder if there are more people participating. Chances are that you won't be able to solo many of them and you won't be able to mindlessly spam skills or you will get facerolled.
Dungeons will be even harder and will require much more coordination and cooperation than any game that has the trinity system. In the trinity system all you have to worry about is doing as much damage as possible if you are a dps. Healing as efficiently as possible if you are a healer. Taunting and aggroing as much as possible if you are a tank. GW2 is going to require people to support each other when they need support, crowd control when their allies are in trouble and avoid damage with the dodge mechanic when the have to. The group also won't wipe simply because one person couldn't do their job. Once someones health empties they go into the downed state and can continue to help and everyone can rez so that a single person doesn't have to stop what they are doing everytime someone goes down.
Comments
This is just another reason why groups will become even more a rare thing..
GW2 seems like it will be a true solo fest.
Atleast people will be running around you to make it feel like somewhat of an mmo.
I traditionally play a healer, but I have to agree, and I have to say I am excited and eager to play a game where I can be a decent support class and still be versatile in other ways. The only class like that I can think of right now is the WoW paladin, and they are so terribly unbalanced that, when I played, I could easily take down monsters that should take five people of my level to kill. It is awful. Balancing without needing this ridiculous and arbitrary trinity bollocks can only have a positive effect on the genre.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Changed that for you to help your point-of-view not seem so narrow-minded.
Just because you personally prefer a different approach to something, doesn't automatically mean it's how it "should be done" for everyone else.
It's that "If I like it, then everyone else should too" mentality that gets in the way of most conversations on forums like these. Too many people think their ideas of "how things should be" are "right" and everyone who disagrees is wrong.
Life is not that cut and dry, and that includes preferences in MMORPGs.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I was thinking the same thing.
Seems the industry (at least in the Western market) is heading ever more and more toward "everyone is a self-sufficient island" in MMOs.
And true community is falling farther and farther into the background.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Which I perfectly understand. I play GW. Even though there are two dedicated healers, all classes can heal and support others in some way.
GW already has much of this mechanic in place already. Eles can already drop zones of slow/block chance/elemental resist. Necros can exploit corpses for +regen.
What I am saying is, you will still have many, many people that play this game as a normal MMO. You will still have number crunchers who figure out what works best. When you play in a guild group, you'll have no problems what so ever.
But when random people group up to do a dungeon, you will have certain persons who choose to ignore the support roles in favor of spamming dps since they are a DPS first and nothing else. Removing healers won't fix why there are so few healers in other games. You'll still want someone who focuses on support first. You'll still want a heavy armor class focusing on tanking. You'll want a dps class in the group who focuses on control.
You will have people complaining. They may not say "Omg Mr Monk, heal me". Instead they will say, "Hey Necro, use your damn control skill", "Hey ele, use the water heal thingy, christ, you are only using flare/fire storm".
Rather then the burden placed on one person who most likely wants to heal, you are putting it on everyone to heal/control/support.
Just saying.
Oh, unless, of course, I am supposed to do everything solo. That doesn't sound fun
.
Thats the way its supposed to be. Now people actually have to work together. People are supposed to switch weapon sets (attunements in ele's case) and change their playstyle in mid-combat so they can support each other and defeat their enemies.
The holy trinity doesn't allow that and its one guy healing, one guy tanking and the rest attacking the entire time.
People are supposed to work together under a trinity too....
The Tank is supposed to control mobs (weird!), the DPS is supposed to DPS, support (CC) and Control mobs (Offtank and the like). The heals just spam heals. So the only real part they are removing is the healing aspect from a few certain players in a much....should I say it? Sure! dumbed down version of healing. Ouch. It hurt to say that. Other classes already offer healing/Control/Support in GW1 as part of there class with a normal healer involved too.
Just instead of complaining that the healer isn't healing, you are complaining the supporter isn't supporting, or the controlling isn't controlling or the tank isn't doing enough of both. Sure, you can switch in combat to help do that, but you are still coming back to the same problem as the trinity.
I just think it's surprising if you think suddenly a "no trinity" system is going to work all that different from a trinity, and that people will treat the game and combat different then a trinity.
It's not a giant leap forward in how combat works relating to players. It's different names for the same things, and the removal of targeted heal in favor of hoping those dps that stand in fires will suddenly remember to press their Pixie dust of rejuvination +1 as they stand in that fire.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge
I can tell you have little to no clue as to how GW2 will work. The plan is to avoid damage and make sure it never happens in the first place. You are still stuck in the mindset that combat is static and the only way to stay alive is to heal whatever damage you take.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The new generation of mmos coming out is more action-oriented. Tera is doing pretty much the same thing, Blade and Soul is doing pretty much the same thing, I've heard rumors that Dark Millenium might do something similar (mostly because the only 'healer' in 40k is maybe an apothecary).
SWTOR isn't new gen. It's following the current out-dated mode of gameplay mechanics.
Well since you are running through GW1 dungeons for the first time, you should be able to see that even GW1 does not even work as you described. I have run slaver’s exile on hardmode with 4 Rits, 1 Necro, 1 Ranger, and 2 elementalists. Here were the build setup; first Rit ran a Signet of Spirts channeling damage build, second Rit ran a Signet of Ghostly Might communion damage build, third Rit ran a Soul twisting build focused on damage prevention and damage, 4 Rit ran a preservation build focused on healing and damage, the Ranger ran a barrage build with frozen soil and winter to prevent resections, first elementalist ran a searing flames build for DPS, second elementalist ran a savannah heat build for DPS, and I ran a spiteful sprit/Arcane echo build on my necromancer. (We completed Forgewight, Selvetarm, and Thommis with this PUG group)
Now if you look at those builds you will notice we did not have a tank or even a traditional healer for our group. The Rit with healing was a spot healer but our group depended more on the support provided by the ranger and the Rit with soul twisting. And guess what we were not complaining that the support was not doing their job; we worked as a team and learned how to beat the dungeon with our team setup (there is nothing about what we did that was dumbed down).
Now this is exactly what Guild Wars 2 is doing, they are allowing people to be flexible so they do not need a monk or a tank in order to complete a dungeon. I will say this I do agree with you that minmaxer are probably going to be doing the same cookie cutter routine, once they figure out what is supposable the best way to run a dungeon. But that will not stop me (non-Minmaxers) or any of the rest of the people that played GW1 from forming weird groups and having a blast.
That's good to know. I won't ever have to load Healing Spring on my Ranger now. Thanks for the protip.
True community? Please define that for me.
I don't understand why your HERO shouldn't be self sufficient. They are a hero after all and to rely on a specific class just to get through the game and have fun in the game isn't fun at all - and not to mention not very heroic. You are disregarding the way GW2 will play out in terms of grouping: People wanting to help each other because everyone benefits. As in people running by you won't just run by you. They will stop and help randomly rather than queing for an instance and standing around town for a while.
Why are you disregarding the Guild Wars 2 set up? The Guardian class alone is fun based on helping others while Elementalists can have fun tossing out fire walls to enhance ranged players attacks. The potential is all there and I know in past MMOs I took pleasure in stopping to help others - without real incentive. Guild Wars 2 gives us that incentive. People will help each other out more than other MMOs because of the set up that givs everyone credit and rankings for participation in events.
You type as if you actually played the game... have you?
Yeah everyone around you is going to be doing stuff to maybe benefit you and others,but I can see that it could still have that solo,alienated feel..
Why shouldnt your hero be able to take care of himself in every single situation? why would it even be an mmo then? that mentality just throws any kind of team work right out the window.
You might as well be playing some solo rpg with hired npc mercs at that point.
Even Hero's have a supporting cast. Let's say you have five friends in GW2 and you guy's want to go out and slay that dreaded dragon. Everything starts out fine and your having a good time, then the next thing you know there are 20 more people jumping in to kill it also, sure the mob will adjust to the influx of people but it will not be the same. The fight turns into one big zerg fest.
You might as well kiss those epic moments you had in the past with your friends goodbye because it's gonna be a "kill by committee game"
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
@stayontarget
"Even [heroes] have a supporting cast."
Funny, I don't recall Robin Hood ever saying "LFG need healer to raid Prince Richard's castle." Other classical heroes like Heracles and Beowulf didn't need a back up crew of healers and buffers, either.
I think that the conept of a hero has just been corrupted for people by MMORPGs, so no, heroes don't really need such a back up crew and usually do just fine without them. They can take care of their own business, and usually if there's anyone with them, then they're just along for the ride.
I'm fine with ArenaNet doing away with healers and buffers, as long as they remember what's really important.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
O_O I seem to recall that they did in fact have a supporting crew. But never mind because that's not the point. Perhaps in time you will come to the realization that doing great deeds have more meaning when done with a group.
~if everyone one plays the lead role, then who will be left to care about your victories~
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Everyone will be playing as a group. Just because they aren't pigeon-holed into strict and unflexible roles doesn't mean they are going to be acting selfishly. In fact, that is exactly what the trinity does. The only person who actually helps the group in trinity combat is the healer. The tank is just holding mobs with taunts and damagers are just cycling through their skills. Usually neither the tank nor the damagers are supporting their allies in any way unless they have some sort of heal.
Does this mean the 25man raid won't be held up anymore by the Priestess who is having a bad day and as raid leader it is up to me to mollify their ego so the rest of us can play?
Neato!
And as a former healer this means I can play the game, look at the super cool awesome graphics and play the game instead of watching bars, playing whack-a-mole and listening to the sullen murmurs about how I wiped the raid because I didn't press the right key at the right time?
Even more neato. Wait, is neato a word?
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
It can be. Unfriend is officially a word but it wasn't until people started using it because of Facebook.
how are tanks and DPS not supporting their group?
without the tank,everyone pretty much dies..
without the dps,the mob doesnt die fast enough,the healer is tapped out of power/mana and the group eventually dies..
each class that makes up a group is a key to that groups success.
Like Truthiness..
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
A group can survive with 4 damagers and a healer. A group can survive with 4 tanks and a healer. A group can't survive if there is no healer. The healer is the backbone of the group. The problem with that is that it elevates them to the most important position and basically means that everyone else is expendable. It doesn't matter if one of your damagers goes down, you will most likely complete what you were doing, just a little slower. You can survive if the tank goes down, sure it requires some frantic action to finish what you were doing and stay alive but its possible. Once the healer goes down though, you're SOL.
It all depends on what mmo youre playing..some mmo's would chew up a 4 dps 1 healer gorup.In some mmos an all tank group with no healer could survive as well if done right.
Is the healer the most important? probably..
but that doesnt mean every other class is meaningless.People aim for a well rounded group for a reason,becuase its the best,most efficient method for success.
if that DPS doesnt land his crowd control skill? that could easily be a wipe..
If that tank cant get his taunt off? also could just as easily be a wipe.
In GW2,if everyone is running around solo to each DE mindlessly spamming their skills...
to me it just sounds pretty lame to be honest.
So all of a sudden everyone playing GW2 are going to be mindless idiots that don't know anything other than spam skills?
It seems to me that this isn't so much you being skeptical of the system as your are pessimist about not having the trinity. In trinity combat you can get by by having your healer mindlessly spamming heals, the tank mindlessly spamming taunts and the dps mindlessly spamming their attack skills. If you try to do that in GW2 you will most likely get facerolled.
I now see that you were imagining a group in the open world. I was using examples of groups running a dungeon. DEs in GW2 scale depending on how many people participate in each one and will get harder if there are more people participating. Chances are that you won't be able to solo many of them and you won't be able to mindlessly spam skills or you will get facerolled.
Dungeons will be even harder and will require much more coordination and cooperation than any game that has the trinity system. In the trinity system all you have to worry about is doing as much damage as possible if you are a dps. Healing as efficiently as possible if you are a healer. Taunting and aggroing as much as possible if you are a tank. GW2 is going to require people to support each other when they need support, crowd control when their allies are in trouble and avoid damage with the dodge mechanic when the have to. The group also won't wipe simply because one person couldn't do their job. Once someones health empties they go into the downed state and can continue to help and everyone can rez so that a single person doesn't have to stop what they are doing everytime someone goes down.