I am willing to wait to see how they do it, but it looks to me that the Elementalist is going to be the one people bring along to pick up healing deficiencies....which is just relegating Elementalist into the "mediocre" healing role. Maybe pick up all elementalists and one tank-ish class.........hope you're playing an elementalist.
Why the Elementalist? Every single class except the thief has been shown to have some type of AoE regen spell.
... which are all really the same thing, since you can only have one regen effect upon yourself, and they stack in duration, not effectiveness.
The Elementalist's speciality is their flexibility in range of combat abilities, not in their ability to lay down heals.
Also, if you're relying on a minor regen over time that only can be stacked for duration not effectiveness... then you're going to die. :T
Personal heals are more effective, dodge rolling attacks prevents the damage in the first place, and there are abilities by various classes that work proactively like defensive barriers and shields, which will work better than a slow heal over time.
I am willing to wait to see how they do it, but it looks to me that the Elementalist is going to be the one people bring along to pick up healing deficiencies....which is just relegating Elementalist into the "mediocre" healing role. Maybe pick up all elementalists and one tank-ish class.........hope you're playing an elementalist.
Why the Elementalist? Every single class except the thief has been shown to have some type of AoE regen spell.
... which are all really the same thing, since you can only have one regen effect upon yourself, and they stack in duration, not effectiveness.
The Elementalist's speciality is their flexibility in range of combat abilities, not in their ability to lay down heals.
Also, if you're relying on a minor regen over time that only can be stacked for duration not effectiveness... then you're going to die. :T
Personal heals are more effective, dodge rolling attacks prevents the damage in the first place, and there are abilities by various classes that work proactively like defensive barriers and shields, which will work better than a slow heal over time.
I'm just going by how many different type heals they get, someone linked a skill site earlier and elementalist had like 5 or 6 and every other class had 1 to 3. Depends on how they stack, what kind of numbers all the other classes skills put out..etc. But there is going to be one preferred over others IF the heals are not the same. It's just how every MMO plays out, there's always a preferred class for a specific task. If they need more healing...they will pick the one with the best healing options. Which to me looks like Elementalist .....on paper.
People are forgetting that healing in GW2 comes into play only after you FAILED to successfully avoid incoming damage. ANet is taking the concept of the monk protection line, and applying that into the combat system of GW2. Therefore healing skills will only be used as a last resort, rather than an important part of your party build, which needs to be filled.
Also, according to info, healing takes huge amount of energy and CAN NOT be sustained over a long period of time. In other games one healer can out-heal more damage dealers, in GW2 it's quite the opposite. A character purely relying on heals is dead the moment he joins a fight.
another reason why i am happy they are canning healers. we wont have to deal with condenscending healers that think they are better than everyone else because they think they have a harder role to play. now in gw2, everyone will have a chance to equally help the party, not just healers and tanks.
What does that have to do with healers?
It's not like there aren't elitist DPS or elitist tanks. Do you honestly believe that removing a healing class will suddenly turn all those elitist jerks into nice people?
Those elitist jerks are just going to find something else in GW2 that they'll deem skillful and superior and start calling everyone not using that noobs. It may be classes, it may be certain abilities or even playstyles. But there's going to be a certain thing that all elitist idiots that think they're better are going to roll.
Guild Wars 2 will have it's IWAY-teams, it's air-spikers, it's 55-monks, it's EoE bombs etc.
There will always be players demanding you play their way. Healers or no healers.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I am willing to wait to see how they do it, but it looks to me that the Elementalist is going to be the one people bring along to pick up healing deficiencies....which is just relegating Elementalist into the "mediocre" healing role. Maybe pick up all elementalists and one tank-ish class.........hope you're playing an elementalist.
Why the Elementalist? Every single class except the thief has been shown to have some type of AoE regen spell.
... which are all really the same thing, since you can only have one regen effect upon yourself, and they stack in duration, not effectiveness.
The Elementalist's speciality is their flexibility in range of combat abilities, not in their ability to lay down heals.
Also, if you're relying on a minor regen over time that only can be stacked for duration not effectiveness... then you're going to die. :T
Personal heals are more effective, dodge rolling attacks prevents the damage in the first place, and there are abilities by various classes that work proactively like defensive barriers and shields, which will work better than a slow heal over time.
I'm just going by how many different type heals they get, someone linked a skill site earlier and elementalist had like 5 or 6 and every other class had 1 to 3. Depends on how they stack, what kind of numbers all the other classes skills put out..etc. But there is going to be one preferred over others IF the heals are not the same. It's just how every MMO plays out, there's always a preferred class for a specific task. If they need more healing...they will pick the one with the best healing options. Which to me looks like Elementalist .....on paper.
Those are only 2 healing skills on the elementalists bar. They are not allowed to switch weapon sets during combat. Only attunements. None of the fire skills or air skills for the staff have any healing skills.
The first one is a main-hand skill and the other is an off-hand skill. It was stated that the water attunement would be good for helping support allies, but it doesn't look to me to be any good for being a dedicated healer. An elementalist that also plays purely with the water attunement won't be anywhere near as good as one that uses all 4.
another reason why i am happy they are canning healers. we wont have to deal with condenscending healers that think they are better than everyone else because they think they have a harder role to play. now in gw2, everyone will have a chance to equally help the party, not just healers and tanks.
What does that have to do with healers?
It's not like there aren't elitist DPS or elitist tanks. Do you honestly believe that removing a healing class will suddenly turn all those elitist jerks into nice people?
Those elitist jerks are just going to find something else in GW2 that they'll deem skillful and superior and start calling everyone not using that noobs. It may be classes, it may be certain abilities or even playstyles. But there's going to be a certain thing that all elitist idiots that think they're better are going to roll.
Guild Wars 2 will have it's IWAY-teams, it's air-spikers, it's 55-monks, it's EoE bombs etc.
There will always be players demanding you play their way. Healers or no healers.
Yep and there will always be players calling you a noob scrub jerkface becuse you don't play the game the exact way they feel you should play.
Making everyone self reliant may be a great thing, but it might also turn PVP into a long and boring slugfest. Or worse a never ending cycle of rez and regroup. Neither of which sound like much fun.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
another reason why i am happy they are canning healers. we wont have to deal with condenscending healers that think they are better than everyone else because they think they have a harder role to play. now in gw2, everyone will have a chance to equally help the party, not just healers and tanks.
What does that have to do with healers?
It's not like there aren't elitist DPS or elitist tanks. Do you honestly believe that removing a healing class will suddenly turn all those elitist jerks into nice people?
Those elitist jerks are just going to find something else in GW2 that they'll deem skillful and superior and start calling everyone not using that noobs. It may be classes, it may be certain abilities or even playstyles. But there's going to be a certain thing that all elitist idiots that think they're better are going to roll.
Guild Wars 2 will have it's IWAY-teams, it's air-spikers, it's 55-monks, it's EoE bombs etc.
There will always be players demanding you play their way. Healers or no healers.
Yep and there will always be players calling you a noob scrub jerkface becuse you don't play the game the exact way they feel you should play.
Making everyone self reliant may be a great thing, but it might also turn PVP into a long and boring slugfest. Or worse a never ending cycle of rez and regroup. Neither of which sound like much fun.
I disagree on the pvp part. I think GW2 is doing exactly the opposite of what you described, in fact what you described happens mostly to traditional trinity games, healers in the back going healboting, front line mindlessly button mashing and everything else that is riddled by that mechanic. In GW2 it is all about kicking the shit out of your enemy and a more straight-up fight...bodies everywhere...without necessarily removing the tactical part.
I disagree on the pvp part. I think GW2 is doing exactly the opposite of what you described, in fact what you described happens mostly to traditional trinity games, healers in the back going healboting, front line mindlessly button mashing and everything else that is riddled by that mechanic. In GW2 it is all about kicking the shit out of your enemy and a more straight-up fight...bodies everywhere...without necessarily removing the tactical part.
I don't know which trinity MMOs you've played but as a healer in PvP I've rarely had the pleasure of being left alone in the back to healbot my team.
Most of the time I was being chased around by a melee train desperately kiting them and using what crowd control I had to stay alive whilst trying to stay in range to heal my own side's melee train as they chase the enemy healers without exposing myself to the enemy's ranged characters so they can join in on the fun of killing me.
If you want to bash trinity PvP combat then at the very least pick a real complaint like tanks often lacking a function in PvP.
As to how GW2 PvP turns out, we just don't know. As Tardcore said: It might be a great thing, it might also become a zergfest. We just don't know.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
another reason why i am happy they are canning healers. we wont have to deal with condenscending healers that think they are better than everyone else because they think they have a harder role to play. now in gw2, everyone will have a chance to equally help the party, not just healers and tanks.
What does that have to do with healers?
It's not like there aren't elitist DPS or elitist tanks. Do you honestly believe that removing a healing class will suddenly turn all those elitist jerks into nice people?
Those elitist jerks are just going to find something else in GW2 that they'll deem skillful and superior and start calling everyone not using that noobs. It may be classes, it may be certain abilities or even playstyles. But there's going to be a certain thing that all elitist idiots that think they're better are going to roll.
Guild Wars 2 will have it's IWAY-teams, it's air-spikers, it's 55-monks, it's EoE bombs etc.
There will always be players demanding you play their way. Healers or no healers.
Yep and there will always be players calling you a noob scrub jerkface becuse you don't play the game the exact way they feel you should play.
Making everyone self reliant may be a great thing, but it might also turn PVP into a long and boring slugfest. Or worse a never ending cycle of rez and regroup. Neither of which sound like much fun.
I disagree on the pvp part. I think GW2 is doing exactly the opposite of what you described, in fact what you described happens mostly to traditional trinity games, healers in the back going healboting, front line mindlessly button mashing and everything else that is riddled by that mechanic. In GW2 it is all about kicking the shit out of your enemy and a more straight-up fight...bodies everywhere...without necessarily removing the tactical part.
Well that is why I said might. I was thinking mostly about how they were doing "downed" skills. It all depends on just how hard to is to kill someone I guess. And how quickly they can re-enter the fray. If they can just keep popping right back up it could start to feel like you are fighting the Terminator. But again this is just a "what if" I imagine that the GW2 guys are smart enough to keep this from happening.
As to the current holy trinity making pvp annoying, I have to concur. I'm seeing this a lot in BGs in a recently released game whos name I will not mention, where there are so many cross heals, it can be impossible to bring even the glass cannons down. And if your side isn't healing at all, your enemy just walks right over your disembowled corpse.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Most of the time I was being chased around by a melee train desperately kiting them and using what crowd control I had to stay alive whilst trying to stay in range to heal my own side's melee train as they chase the enemy healers without exposing myself to the enemy's ranged characters so they can join in on the fun of killing me.
Gobla you make pvp as a healer sound like so much fun. I had a good laugh at this because I usually play the melee dps that is trying to kill the healer at times. So it was pretty funny to see it from the healers point of view.
As for GW2 will just have to wait and see if it all works out or not.
I disagree on the pvp part. I think GW2 is doing exactly the opposite of what you described, in fact what you described happens mostly to traditional trinity games, healers in the back going healboting, front line mindlessly button mashing and everything else that is riddled by that mechanic. In GW2 it is all about kicking the shit out of your enemy and a more straight-up fight...bodies everywhere...without necessarily removing the tactical part.
I don't know which trinity MMOs you've played but as a healer in PvP I've rarely had the pleasure of being left alone in the back to healbot my team.
Most of the time I was being chased around by a melee train desperately kiting them and using what crowd control I had to stay alive whilst trying to stay in range to heal my own side's melee train as they chase the enemy healers without exposing myself to the enemy's ranged characters so they can join in on the fun of killing me.
If you want to bash trinity PvP combat then at the very least pick a real complaint like tanks often lacking a function in PvP.
As to how GW2 PvP turns out, we just don't know. As Tardcore said: It might be a great thing, it might also become a zergfest. We just don't know.
I've played Rift and WAR (long time on that one) to know this is exactly what is happening. The side that heals less is the side that usually loses and many a time the deaths are very rare and the fights a clusterfuck snoozefest.
Fallen Earth and Champions, to name two -- and hardly the only two. In practise neither has defined classes or roles. In FE they just don't exist, there is no trinity and the closest thing to a class is what weapon type you specialize in. In Champions, as with GW2, everyone can do everything so dedicated roles are neither wanted nor needed. In both games, group content, what of it anyone bothers with, is a mindless zergfest.
Nothing GW2 is doing is new or unique, to even suggest the lack of healing clasess or a trinity is somehow new is absurd in the extreme. That a rather depressing number of GW2 fans -- how one can be a fan of a game no one has even played remains a mystery -- don't even seem to know this says volumes.
No doubt GW2 will be as... "successful" as previous games that have followed that model.
You don't rip out a primary component of group play without replacing it with something that works equally well and not have a disaster -- and GW2 has not brought anything new to the table to replace it. Stand-in-the-fire DPSers may hate the trinity, but no one has yet come up with anything that works half as well and simply excising it so people won't have to wait in a queue (Oh, goody, instead of three standing-in-fire DPSers with a tank and healer to carry them through, now there'll be five!) is missing the point on a monumental scale.
But then, Anet has always been pretty good at that.
At least there will be a great deal of amusement to be had in the "This game sux!!!11!!!!1!" rages three months in from the very same people hyping GW2 to insane levels now.
I am so glad you MMO fanatics know so much more than the rest of us (even the developers) on what makes good PVP. It is so nice to know that any game that does not have your precious holy trinity is a zergfest and nothing else. Because the logic and intelligence of MMO fanatics is so superior to us normal mortals, I would of never known that counter strike is a zergfest without any teamwork what so ever. After all these players that earn thousands of dollars each year in no way work as a team, they just run around like mindless drones.
But the MMO fanatics are so right without the trinity all PVP just sucks, there is no way it could be fun and enjoyable without their precious healers and tanks. After all how fun is it to enter a skirmish in Warhammer online and have no healers on chaos and 3 on order that heal, and then be pinned in your base the whole match. Yes the trinity makes PVP so perfect, you MMO fanatics are just geniuses I wish we all had your IQ. Then we all could see that this genre never needs to change it just needs to stay the way it is, and I am sure it will be going strong in 30 years. /sarcasm off
IMO removing healers, and other specific rolls, from the game dumbs it down, and turns into nothing more than unique forms of DPS. I'm ole school RPGer who likes class specific rolls, that encourages greater team work. It would have been better to provide of variety of classes with healing ability. GW2 is basically a more sophisticated borderlands, but lucky for me I enjoyed borderlands so will reserve final judgement until I actually play the game.
I'm going to really miss playing a monk. Healing in Guild Wars was a truly unique experience.
Fallen Earth and Champions, to name two -- and hardly the only two. In practise neither has defined classes or roles. In FE they just don't exist, there is no trinity and the closest thing to a class is what weapon type you specialize in. In Champions, as with GW2, everyone can do everything so dedicated roles are neither wanted nor needed. In both games, group content, what of it anyone bothers with, is a mindless zergfest. Nothing GW2 is doing is new or unique, to even suggest the lack of healing clasess or a trinity is somehow new is absurd in the extreme. That a rather depressing number of GW2 fans -- how one can be a fan of a game no one has even played remains a mystery -- don't even seem to know this says volumes. No doubt GW2 will be as... "successful" as previous games that have followed that model. You don't rip out a primary component of group play without replacing it with something that works equally well and not have a disaster -- and GW2 has not brought anything new to the table to replace it. Stand-in-the-fire DPSers may hate the trinity, but no one has yet come up with anything that works half as well and simply excising it so people won't have to wait in a queue (Oh, goody, instead of three standing-in-fire DPSers with a tank and healer to carry them through, now there'll be five!) is missing the point on a monumental scale. But then, Anet has always been pretty good at that. At least there will be a great deal of amusement to be had in the "This game sux!!!11!!!!1!" rages three months in from the very same people hyping GW2 to insane levels now.
I am so glad you MMO fanatics know so much more than the rest of us (even the developers) on what makes good PVP. It is so nice to know that any game that does not have your precious holy trinity is a zergfest and nothing else. Because the logic and intelligence of MMO fanatics is so superior to us normal mortals, I would of never known that counter strike is a zergfest without any teamwork what so ever. After all these players that earn thousands of dollars each year in no way work as a team, they just run around like mindless drones.
But the MMO fanatics are so right without the trinity all PVP just sucks, there is no way it could be fun and enjoyable without their precious healers and tanks. After all how fun is it to enter a skirmish in Warhammer online and have no healers on chaos and 3 on order that heal, and then be pinned in your base the whole match. Yes the trinity makes PVP so perfect, you MMO fanatics are just geniuses I wish we all had your IQ. Then we all could see that this genre never needs to change it just needs to stay the way it is, and I am sure it will be going strong in 30 years. /sarcasm off
/reboot brain
I think what's important to understand about these objetions is that they tend to view changes in a vacuum. Rather than recognize that ANet has changed the entire game subtly, spining the world on a slightly different axis as it were, they simply take an example of an existing paradigm and remove healing from it, then point how it would not work. Well, of course it won't work if it's built from the ground up to require healing!
This is just like every debate about dynamic events needing to be phased so that everyone can access the content, or raiding because it is assumed nobody can return to low level areas and still be challenged. GW2 is just different enough on all counts that we cannot say it will work this or that way, because past examples simply do not quite compare.
I've played Rift and WAR (long time on that one) to know this is exactly what is happening. The side that heals less is the side that usually loses and many a time the deaths are very rare and the fights a clusterfuck snoozefest.
That tends to happen when you randomly assign random players to random matches.
The rather large amount of random tends to unbalance things.
Have you ever played a competitive premade vs premade in a trinity MMO? Playing a healer in such a setting has provided a tactical experience the likes I've yet to see in any other game.
Look, if you want a casual random PUG PvP game then trinity probably isn't the best system to go with. I will totally agree with you if you say that for random PuG battlegrounds the trinity isn't a great system.
However in a more serious PvP game where players spend time with guildies and friends to talk together and organise things the trinity is a great system that can provide a lot of tactical depth and cooperation.
It's not a matter of the trinity being a clusterfuck snoozefest. It's a matter of incompetent developers trying to squeeze square pegs into a round hole.
The trinity was designed for games when players still had large active guilds ( the 200 random member guilds don't count, active means you actively communicate with all your other guild members. ) and spend time socialising and talking with each other while they got groups together to, in an organised manner, tackle harder content together.
The many complaints about the trinity are caused by the simple matter that most players are no longer interested in taking the time to talk and organise with other players. So, naturally, a system that relies on player cooperation and organisation fails. Doesn't mean that system is flawed, it merely means that you picked the wrong system for the wrong game. It's like adding levels to counter-strike making you much, much more powerful. Of course it's a bad idea, but that doesn't mean that levels themselves are a bad idea.
So for more casual games, like GW2, ditching the trinity is probably a great idea. However if a more "hardcore" game came along with a focus on guilds equal to the focus seen on corps in EvE and guilds in older MMOs then I think the trinity is a great system for such a game.
ps. Please don't turn my words around by implying that lack of trinity means no cooperation and organisation. I never said that. I'm only saying the trinity was designed for organised play and thus games with the trinity should be focussed on organised play, not random PuG play.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Originally posted by Tekaelon IMO removing healers, and other specific rolls, from the game dumbs it down, and turns into nothing more than unique forms of DPS. I'm ole school RPGer who likes class specific rolls, that encourages greater team work. It would have been better to provide of variety of classes with healing ability. GW2 is basically a more sophisticated borderlands, but lucky for me I enjoyed borderlands so will reserve final judgement until I actually play the game. I'm going to really miss playing a monk. Healing in Guild Wars was a truly unique experience.
But... there ARE specific roles in GW2. It isn't that everyone has to do everything at the same time, but that anyone can fill those roles in a pinch. It's a distinct difference.
I think what's important to understand about these objetions is that they tend to view changes in a vacuum. Rather than recognize that ANet has changed the entire game subtly, spining the world on a slightly different axis as it were, they simply take an example of an existing paradigm and remove healing from it, then poimt how it would not work. Well, of course it won't work if it's built from the ground up to requirehealing!
I completely agree Sidhaethe, if people would actually research into what ANet is doing they might be able to see the potential of the game design. Of course it could still bomb and go down like as a flaming wreckage. Most people though do not do research they just look at the game and see that there is no dedicated healer and instantly shout “oh this game is a zergfest”. Because of course any game not like their precious holy trinity must equal fail. That is why I responded with so much sarcasm, there are thousands of online games that do not have the trinity and they require team work. But according to all the MMO fanatics once you remove the trinity it is a zerg, also that change is bad and that they are destroying all team work and reason to socialize in a MMO.
I guess I do not see eye to eye with most MMO fans, I do not see the holy trinity as the pinnacle of creation and nothing could ever surpass it. Because to me if that is true then this genre will eventually die, and I prefer to think that there is room for growth and change. But I guess to each their own; they can keep their divinely created holy trinity and I will keep looking to see what is around the corner.
I've played Rift and WAR (long time on that one) to know this is exactly what is happening. The side that heals less is the side that usually loses and many a time the deaths are very rare and the fights a clusterfuck snoozefest.
That tends to happen when you randomly assign random players to random matches.
The rather large amount of random tends to unbalance things.
Have you ever played a competitive premade vs premade in a trinity MMO? Playing a healer in such a setting has provided a tactical experience the likes I've yet to see in any other game.
Look, if you want a casual random PUG PvP game then trinity probably isn't the best system to go with. I will totally agree with you if you say that for random PuG battlegrounds the trinity isn't a great system.
However in a more serious PvP game where players spend time with guildies and friends to talk together and organise things the trinity is a great system that can provide a lot of tactical depth and cooperation.
It's not a matter of the trinity being a clusterfuck snoozefest. It's a matter of incompetent developers trying to squeeze square pegs into a round hole.
The trinity was designed for games when players still had large active guilds ( the 200 random member guilds don't count, active means you actively communicate with all your other guild members. ) and spend time socialising and talking with each other while they got groups together to, in an organised manner, tackle harder content together.
The many complaints about the trinity are caused by the simple matter that most players are no longer interested in taking the time to talk and organise with other players. So, naturally, a system that relies on player cooperation and organisation fails. Doesn't mean that system is flawed, it merely means that you picked the wrong system for the wrong game. It's like adding levels to counter-strike making you much, much more powerful. Of course it's a bad idea, but that doesn't mean that levels themselves are a bad idea.
So for more casual games, like GW2, ditching the trinity is probably a great idea. However if a more "hardcore" game came along with a focus on guilds equal to the focus seen on corps in EvE and guilds in older MMOs then I think the trinity is a great system for such a game.
ps. Please don't turn my words around by implying that lack of trinity means no cooperation and organisation. I never said that. I'm only saying the trinity was designed for organised play and thus games with the trinity should be focussed on organised play, not random PuG play.
Thats basically the problem with it. There is little to no flexibility to it. You need a healer and you need a tank, once you have those you can fill up the group with some random people that can cycle through their skills to kill your enemies. Yes, it was designed for organization, but it is very strict and repetetive.
I can understand wanting to get rid of trnity so u can group without needing a tank or healer. that said i dont think im better caue i heal or tank and ive done both.
ive dps'd also no offense man but healng and tanking is harder then dps. it just is. not only is it harder and take more attention to detail but its a thankless job where if u do your job everyone is jus tlike ok so what no biggie thats your job. if u wipe its your fault. So theres more stress on both tanks and healers then dps.
espeically when the dps stands in crap and doesnt move. Id have no issue with this thread if it didtn start with one huge rant against healers in general.
I dont belive anyone is better cause they tank or heal and i understand some people do it because guidl needs it its why i started tanking on my pally in wow. I wanted to heal but they needed me to tank more so i tanked. Turned out i enjoyed it and had a blast.
That said tanking and healing is harder then dps it just is.
Actually that is soooo wrong. I play mostly the tanking role and I can say that the DPS require equal skill. The reality is the DPS is the real thankless job, I find tanking a joke and when people compliment me on my job my reponse is "I just did what is required...it's not rocket science.". It's just game now have a gear progression than one part member can make up 1-2 DPS and a properly skilled DPS but gear beingthe realy factor paired with skill. I've learned to apprechiate skilled DPS and to reconize a skilled DPS also. Not all DPS are mindless drones.
As far as the OP is concernered, I for one am glad for a changed in party make-up, and by the time I got to page two it was clear the haterers here have no flippin ideal how parties will be and are just part of the mindless masses. There will be no more carrying weight around which pretty much what the holy trinity advocates.
Thats basically the problem with it. There is little to no flexibility to it. You need a healer and you need a tank, once you have those you can fill up the group with some random people that can cycle through their skills to kill your enemies. Yes, it was designed for organization, but it is very strict and repetetive.
There's nothing in the trinity that states DPS have to be dumbed down classes with a single skill-rotation. In fact the original trinity games didn't have these dumbed down skill rotations. DPS were often in charge of needed crowd control. DPS often needed to manage their mana/whatever. DPS often needed to take down bosses/adds before certain timers were up. etc.
Dumbed down DPS isn't something that came from the trinity. It's something that came from those devs trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
And the problem with strict and repetetive is?
Chess is about as strict and repetitive as can get. Each piece is limited to a single form of movement and every turn you're forced to move a piece. I don't believe chess would be more fun if it was less strict or repetetive. It's fun exactly because it's fun and repetetive.
You've got a complex problem but a limited/repetetive toolset and strict rules on how you can use those tools. As a result you need to come up with intelligent combinations to solve your problem.
However the moment you dumb your game down to simple problems because your playerbase is no longer taking the effort at much organisation then those repetetive tools and strict rules start dampening the fun.
So it all depends on your game design. Are you aiming at the casual market? Either drop the trinity or make some serious changes to it. Are you aiming at more veteran/hardcore market? A real traditional trinity might be just the thing you need to attract that crowd.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Roflmao!!!! I have to admit, this entire thread was entertaining. Thank you for the entertainment. So, you guys go ahead with your useless debate that will only conclude in beating a dead horse. ... when the game is released I will be having fun playing it solo, depending solely upon myself as I have always done. Never needed any of you people for help.
See, the problem with this new system is that now I have to depend on everyone in the group being as saavy as I am in order to succeed, when before all I had to worry about for the most part was having a smart healer (which was usually myself) and tank, and DPS players with at least enough brains to move out of damage and not over aggro. (no small feat apparently for some folks)
Now everyone has to be smart enough to heal themselves (and others I suppose), tank when its time to tank, cc when its time to cc etc. I'm sure I'm up to the challenge, not so sure about my fellow players.
I know what will happen, the better players will find each other and stick together, the rest will gnash their teeth about how unfair the game is.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all pans out though, genre could use a shake up and I'm hoping GW2 is a game to do it.
Roflmao!!!! I have to admit, this entire thread was entertaining. Thank you for the entertainment. So, you guys go ahead with your useless debate that will only conclude in beating a dead horse. ... when the game is released I will be having fun playing it solo, depending solely upon myself as I have always done. Never needed any of you people for help.
Vladriel
But tenderizing that dead horse meat makes it so much more easier to chew and digest when we finally get around to cooking it.
Not to mention that matured meat is simply so much more tender and has a much richer flavour.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Comments
Why the Elementalist? Every single class except the thief has been shown to have some type of AoE regen spell.
... which are all really the same thing, since you can only have one regen effect upon yourself, and they stack in duration, not effectiveness.
The Elementalist's speciality is their flexibility in range of combat abilities, not in their ability to lay down heals.
Also, if you're relying on a minor regen over time that only can be stacked for duration not effectiveness... then you're going to die. :T
Personal heals are more effective, dodge rolling attacks prevents the damage in the first place, and there are abilities by various classes that work proactively like defensive barriers and shields, which will work better than a slow heal over time.
I'm just going by how many different type heals they get, someone linked a skill site earlier and elementalist had like 5 or 6 and every other class had 1 to 3. Depends on how they stack, what kind of numbers all the other classes skills put out..etc. But there is going to be one preferred over others IF the heals are not the same. It's just how every MMO plays out, there's always a preferred class for a specific task. If they need more healing...they will pick the one with the best healing options. Which to me looks like Elementalist .....on paper.
People are forgetting that healing in GW2 comes into play only after you FAILED to successfully avoid incoming damage. ANet is taking the concept of the monk protection line, and applying that into the combat system of GW2. Therefore healing skills will only be used as a last resort, rather than an important part of your party build, which needs to be filled.
Also, according to info, healing takes huge amount of energy and CAN NOT be sustained over a long period of time. In other games one healer can out-heal more damage dealers, in GW2 it's quite the opposite. A character purely relying on heals is dead the moment he joins a fight.
Eat me!
This is going to be interesting to see how people adapt to this whole change, might be amazing though! Here's to hoping anyway!
Have Played: FFXI, WoW, Aion, DCUO
Waiting For: TSW, World of Darkness, SWTOR
Currently Playing: KOTOR
Tried: Matrix Online, Rift, Xsyon, LOTRO, EVE, Guild Wars
Not all those who wander are lost.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
What does that have to do with healers?
It's not like there aren't elitist DPS or elitist tanks. Do you honestly believe that removing a healing class will suddenly turn all those elitist jerks into nice people?
Those elitist jerks are just going to find something else in GW2 that they'll deem skillful and superior and start calling everyone not using that noobs. It may be classes, it may be certain abilities or even playstyles. But there's going to be a certain thing that all elitist idiots that think they're better are going to roll.
Guild Wars 2 will have it's IWAY-teams, it's air-spikers, it's 55-monks, it's EoE bombs etc.
There will always be players demanding you play their way. Healers or no healers.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_elementalist_skills
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_Blast Water attunement + Staff
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_elementalist_skills Water attunement + Staff
Those are only 2 healing skills on the elementalists bar. They are not allowed to switch weapon sets during combat. Only attunements. None of the fire skills or air skills for the staff have any healing skills.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Wave Water attunement + Scepter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Geyser Water attunement + Focus
The first one is a main-hand skill and the other is an off-hand skill. It was stated that the water attunement would be good for helping support allies, but it doesn't look to me to be any good for being a dedicated healer. An elementalist that also plays purely with the water attunement won't be anywhere near as good as one that uses all 4.
In the current MMO I play, I find it ridiculous how the success of our pvp depends so much on what side has healers.
I agree with you, its ridiculous that one class could be so important.
Sucks for the people that like to play healers but if they give the game a chance, I think they will find it more rewarding.
Yep and there will always be players calling you a noob scrub jerkface becuse you don't play the game the exact way they feel you should play.
Making everyone self reliant may be a great thing, but it might also turn PVP into a long and boring slugfest. Or worse a never ending cycle of rez and regroup. Neither of which sound like much fun.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I disagree on the pvp part. I think GW2 is doing exactly the opposite of what you described, in fact what you described happens mostly to traditional trinity games, healers in the back going healboting, front line mindlessly button mashing and everything else that is riddled by that mechanic. In GW2 it is all about kicking the shit out of your enemy and a more straight-up fight...bodies everywhere...without necessarily removing the tactical part.
I don't know which trinity MMOs you've played but as a healer in PvP I've rarely had the pleasure of being left alone in the back to healbot my team.
Most of the time I was being chased around by a melee train desperately kiting them and using what crowd control I had to stay alive whilst trying to stay in range to heal my own side's melee train as they chase the enemy healers without exposing myself to the enemy's ranged characters so they can join in on the fun of killing me.
If you want to bash trinity PvP combat then at the very least pick a real complaint like tanks often lacking a function in PvP.
As to how GW2 PvP turns out, we just don't know. As Tardcore said: It might be a great thing, it might also become a zergfest. We just don't know.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Well that is why I said might. I was thinking mostly about how they were doing "downed" skills. It all depends on just how hard to is to kill someone I guess. And how quickly they can re-enter the fray. If they can just keep popping right back up it could start to feel like you are fighting the Terminator. But again this is just a "what if" I imagine that the GW2 guys are smart enough to keep this from happening.
As to the current holy trinity making pvp annoying, I have to concur. I'm seeing this a lot in BGs in a recently released game whos name I will not mention, where there are so many cross heals, it can be impossible to bring even the glass cannons down. And if your side isn't healing at all, your enemy just walks right over your disembowled corpse.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Gobla you make pvp as a healer sound like so much fun. I had a good laugh at this because I usually play the melee dps that is trying to kill the healer at times. So it was pretty funny to see it from the healers point of view.
As for GW2 will just have to wait and see if it all works out or not.
I've played Rift and WAR (long time on that one) to know this is exactly what is happening. The side that heals less is the side that usually loses and many a time the deaths are very rare and the fights a clusterfuck snoozefest.
I am so glad you MMO fanatics know so much more than the rest of us (even the developers) on what makes good PVP. It is so nice to know that any game that does not have your precious holy trinity is a zergfest and nothing else. Because the logic and intelligence of MMO fanatics is so superior to us normal mortals, I would of never known that counter strike is a zergfest without any teamwork what so ever. After all these players that earn thousands of dollars each year in no way work as a team, they just run around like mindless drones.
But the MMO fanatics are so right without the trinity all PVP just sucks, there is no way it could be fun and enjoyable without their precious healers and tanks. After all how fun is it to enter a skirmish in Warhammer online and have no healers on chaos and 3 on order that heal, and then be pinned in your base the whole match. Yes the trinity makes PVP so perfect, you MMO fanatics are just geniuses I wish we all had your IQ. Then we all could see that this genre never needs to change it just needs to stay the way it is, and I am sure it will be going strong in 30 years. /sarcasm off
/reboot brain
IMO removing healers, and other specific rolls, from the game dumbs it down, and turns into nothing more than unique forms of DPS. I'm ole school RPGer who likes class specific rolls, that encourages greater team work. It would have been better to provide of variety of classes with healing ability. GW2 is basically a more sophisticated borderlands, but lucky for me I enjoyed borderlands so will reserve final judgement until I actually play the game.
I'm going to really miss playing a monk. Healing in Guild Wars was a truly unique experience.
I think what's important to understand about these objetions is that they tend to view changes in a vacuum. Rather than recognize that ANet has changed the entire game subtly, spining the world on a slightly different axis as it were, they simply take an example of an existing paradigm and remove healing from it, then point how it would not work. Well, of course it won't work if it's built from the ground up to require healing!
This is just like every debate about dynamic events needing to be phased so that everyone can access the content, or raiding because it is assumed nobody can return to low level areas and still be challenged. GW2 is just different enough on all counts that we cannot say it will work this or that way, because past examples simply do not quite compare.
Edit for posting too soon and smartphone typos.
That tends to happen when you randomly assign random players to random matches.
The rather large amount of random tends to unbalance things.
Have you ever played a competitive premade vs premade in a trinity MMO? Playing a healer in such a setting has provided a tactical experience the likes I've yet to see in any other game.
Look, if you want a casual random PUG PvP game then trinity probably isn't the best system to go with. I will totally agree with you if you say that for random PuG battlegrounds the trinity isn't a great system.
However in a more serious PvP game where players spend time with guildies and friends to talk together and organise things the trinity is a great system that can provide a lot of tactical depth and cooperation.
It's not a matter of the trinity being a clusterfuck snoozefest. It's a matter of incompetent developers trying to squeeze square pegs into a round hole.
The trinity was designed for games when players still had large active guilds ( the 200 random member guilds don't count, active means you actively communicate with all your other guild members. ) and spend time socialising and talking with each other while they got groups together to, in an organised manner, tackle harder content together.
The many complaints about the trinity are caused by the simple matter that most players are no longer interested in taking the time to talk and organise with other players. So, naturally, a system that relies on player cooperation and organisation fails. Doesn't mean that system is flawed, it merely means that you picked the wrong system for the wrong game. It's like adding levels to counter-strike making you much, much more powerful. Of course it's a bad idea, but that doesn't mean that levels themselves are a bad idea.
So for more casual games, like GW2, ditching the trinity is probably a great idea. However if a more "hardcore" game came along with a focus on guilds equal to the focus seen on corps in EvE and guilds in older MMOs then I think the trinity is a great system for such a game.
ps. Please don't turn my words around by implying that lack of trinity means no cooperation and organisation. I never said that. I'm only saying the trinity was designed for organised play and thus games with the trinity should be focussed on organised play, not random PuG play.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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But... there ARE specific roles in GW2. It isn't that everyone has to do everything at the same time, but that anyone can fill those roles in a pinch. It's a distinct difference.
I completely agree Sidhaethe, if people would actually research into what ANet is doing they might be able to see the potential of the game design. Of course it could still bomb and go down like as a flaming wreckage. Most people though do not do research they just look at the game and see that there is no dedicated healer and instantly shout “oh this game is a zergfest”. Because of course any game not like their precious holy trinity must equal fail. That is why I responded with so much sarcasm, there are thousands of online games that do not have the trinity and they require team work. But according to all the MMO fanatics once you remove the trinity it is a zerg, also that change is bad and that they are destroying all team work and reason to socialize in a MMO.
I guess I do not see eye to eye with most MMO fans, I do not see the holy trinity as the pinnacle of creation and nothing could ever surpass it. Because to me if that is true then this genre will eventually die, and I prefer to think that there is room for growth and change. But I guess to each their own; they can keep their divinely created holy trinity and I will keep looking to see what is around the corner.
Thats basically the problem with it. There is little to no flexibility to it. You need a healer and you need a tank, once you have those you can fill up the group with some random people that can cycle through their skills to kill your enemies. Yes, it was designed for organization, but it is very strict and repetetive.
Actually that is soooo wrong. I play mostly the tanking role and I can say that the DPS require equal skill. The reality is the DPS is the real thankless job, I find tanking a joke and when people compliment me on my job my reponse is "I just did what is required...it's not rocket science.". It's just game now have a gear progression than one part member can make up 1-2 DPS and a properly skilled DPS but gear beingthe realy factor paired with skill. I've learned to apprechiate skilled DPS and to reconize a skilled DPS also. Not all DPS are mindless drones.
As far as the OP is concernered, I for one am glad for a changed in party make-up, and by the time I got to page two it was clear the haterers here have no flippin ideal how parties will be and are just part of the mindless masses. There will be no more carrying weight around which pretty much what the holy trinity advocates.
There's nothing in the trinity that states DPS have to be dumbed down classes with a single skill-rotation. In fact the original trinity games didn't have these dumbed down skill rotations. DPS were often in charge of needed crowd control. DPS often needed to manage their mana/whatever. DPS often needed to take down bosses/adds before certain timers were up. etc.
Dumbed down DPS isn't something that came from the trinity. It's something that came from those devs trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
And the problem with strict and repetetive is?
Chess is about as strict and repetitive as can get. Each piece is limited to a single form of movement and every turn you're forced to move a piece. I don't believe chess would be more fun if it was less strict or repetetive. It's fun exactly because it's fun and repetetive.
You've got a complex problem but a limited/repetetive toolset and strict rules on how you can use those tools. As a result you need to come up with intelligent combinations to solve your problem.
However the moment you dumb your game down to simple problems because your playerbase is no longer taking the effort at much organisation then those repetetive tools and strict rules start dampening the fun.
So it all depends on your game design. Are you aiming at the casual market? Either drop the trinity or make some serious changes to it. Are you aiming at more veteran/hardcore market? A real traditional trinity might be just the thing you need to attract that crowd.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Roflmao!!!! I have to admit, this entire thread was entertaining. Thank you for the entertainment. So, you guys go ahead with your useless debate that will only conclude in beating a dead horse. ... when the game is released I will be having fun playing it solo, depending solely upon myself as I have always done. Never needed any of you people for help.
Vladriel
Toot your own horn much?
But tenderizing that dead horse meat makes it so much more easier to chew and digest when we finally get around to cooking it.
Not to mention that matured meat is simply so much more tender and has a much richer flavour.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")