PVE, boss fights in particular, works best with roles. I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that you don't like being chased around by a boss while you are trying to camp in the corner and fling your arrows. Things like tanks prevent that from happening, they will be the next thing to go if people like you continue to have their way.
That's pure projection.
One thing players will have to learn is that the mobs are smarter than the WoW drones that you might be used to. Damage isn't the only thing they take into account when they select targets. Basing it off GW1's AI (since there's no reason not to), mobs are quite capable of picking out the soft targets, evaluating whether or not they have a decent chance of reaching them, then bee-lining for them because that's the most effective way to apply pressure. Yes, that means you better be paying attention and you better be on the ball because you will be responsible for keeping yourself on your feet while under pressure until help arrives.
The "roles" you describe are pretty much the dullest, most single-dimensional mechanic that you can encounter in a game. It's just glorified rock-paper-scissors because your role defines your capabilities, not the other way around. If you're not able to take responsibility for yourself, adjust to fluid situations and modify your game on the fly, you will have a rough ride. That's not a failure of the system, that's a shortcoming of the player.
If you don't like getting chased around while you're trying to camp a corner and pewpew arrows at the boss, you're either: 1) camping the wrong corner, move to another one; 2) not effectively making use of your allies' skills (they're there for you too, not just for the player who invoked them); 3) not using your own skills properly; or 4) lazy.
The first three can be corrected through experience or tips from the experienced. The last one can't be helped because that's a character flaw so you're on your own. Expect to become very familar with GW2's Downed State mechanics.
By the way, tanks are already gone. Learn to dodge.
Everyone pulling their own weight makes for a much better game. What it's hard for a person to heal themself? And even if they get taken down won't we be able to use a little team work to bring them back up?
Diablo isn't a totally dead on comparrison, but it is a game where people heal themselves while working with other to take down monsters in a dungeon in an action setting - and has that game been successful for online play? I'd say: YUP. I know guildwars will be more complex and challenging but you can see my point I hope.
Healers are a support that weighs the group down. They make grouping take longer. They cause wipes. They have more pressue put on them than other classes. The removal of them was the next evolution in MMOs.
Tanks too - what a tired concept. Tanking the boss aka being the real hero of the game while everyone else just pokes and prods and heals. Yawn. The thought of that gameplay makes me drousy.
We're all supposed to be heroes. We're all supposed to keep ourselves alive with evasion and tactical attacks and well timed self heals instead of relying on others. And we aren't all supposed to hide behind the mighty tank every fight either.
what your describing is actually fairly boring.. i can see the PVE aspects of this game being totally forgettable.. the only reason i can see, of playing the game.. is simply because of the PVP.. though hopefully it won't be spoiled by a bunch of players who think their rambo and can't work as part of a team..
well, you are always free to enjoy your WoW account for the next decade or so, because you dont seem like you want to try a new take on how mmorpgs should be done- you just want more of the same thing just with a different skin.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
for those who enjoyed playing healers in other MMO's you should really give the Guardian a shot. it's like healing, but instead of filling up someone's green bar, you make it go down slower. you guys really have to get your minds around it, it's not that hard.
The only thing eliminating healers will do is make finding groups easier. People will still complain and blame others when the group wipes. The first group member will die and thus be called a noob for not healing themselves, when in actuality they not because of heals but because they were taking the bulk of damage for the group. I also like the idea of no healing class, however by no means do I think this will end the days of placing unfair blame.
Eliminating healers & tanks will do a lot of things, like removing the dependancy on those classes and forcing people to depend on themselves and the rest of the team, not just those classes that keeps everyone alive. And of course it'll make finding groups a hell of a lot easier. As for the blame for a wipe, at least the blame can be shared amongst the group or on that one noob who kept on dying, instead of the tank & healer. I'm sick of seeing Champions & Hunters in LOTRO, standing fire or purple smoke and blaming the healer for not healing them, once they wind up dead. Blame in GW2 should be shared amongst a group for failing to adapt, or on that one guy trying to Leeroy Jenkins his way though the dungeon, not on the Healer standing in the back for not handing out band-aids fast enough.
for those who enjoyed playing healers in other MMO's you should really give the Guardian a shot. it's like healing, but instead of filling up someone's green bar, you make it go down slower. you guys really have to get your minds around it, it's not that hard.
yeah i dont understand why people find it impossible to have a support role in a game without utilizing a healing mechanic.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Originally posted by Herodes You people cannot be serious if you believe there won´t be any holy trinity. Of course the more robust guy will be close to the mob. Or do you believe a Warrior eqipped with a shield is only useful in PvP?
But without a "taunt" to keep a mob hitting him, what good will that warrior be?
I don't know if you played GW1, but it is entirely possible for an elementalist, assassin, monk, etc. to soak up mob damage and control the battlefield. We already know in GW2 that the Guardian (heavy armor but lower hp than warriors) can put up walls and barriers to absorb and deflect damage.
I would be pleased when the group wipes people do not automaticaly point at the healer. This game will put an end to that. Even if it is unfairly done there is always that happening all over the place. Even if you know as a healer you are not to blame when others all send you tells scolding you or shout at you in the group it still feels awful. I for one am glad no one can make you responsible for their stupidity. Good if people are made responsible for their own life and consequences. I am looking forward to that.
Everyone pulling their own weight makes for a much better game. What it's hard for a person to heal themself? And even if they get taken down won't we be able to use a little team work to bring them back up?
Diablo isn't a totally dead on comparrison, but it is a game where people heal themselves while working with other to take down monsters in a dungeon in an action setting - and has that game been successful for online play? I'd say: YUP. I know guildwars will be more complex and challenging but you can see my point I hope.
Healers are a support that weighs the group down. They make grouping take longer. They cause wipes. They have more pressue put on them than other classes. The removal of them was the next evolution in MMOs.
Tanks too - what a tired concept. Tanking the boss aka being the real hero of the game while everyone else just pokes and prods and heals. Yawn. The thought of that gameplay makes me drousy.
We're all supposed to be heroes. We're all supposed to keep ourselves alive with evasion and tactical attacks and well timed self heals instead of relying on others. And we aren't all supposed to hide behind the mighty tank every fight either.
what your describing is actually fairly boring.. i can see the PVE aspects of this game being totally forgettable.. the only reason i can see, of playing the game.. is simply because of the PVP.. though hopefully it won't be spoiled by a bunch of players who think their rambo and can't work as part of a team..
well, you are always free to enjoy your WoW account for the next decade or so, because you dont seem like you want to try a new take on how mmorpgs should be done- you just want more of the same thing just with a different skin.
or i can enjoy Eve instead.. yet another game that does PVP really well (which WoW doesnt btw..WoW is a casual pve game.. it does that bit really well... which is good.. in small doses.) as for how mmorpgs should be done.. is a matter of opinion.. personally im tired of games that seem to think their single player games.. i'll be getting GW2. but it will be for the PVP.. i don't see the PVE as being all that special.. imo.. the PVE in GW2 is probably just something to do when your taking a break from the PVP... and probably solo.. the world v world, i see it as being the primary focus of the game.. and rightly so, that part of the game i anticipate being hugely popular.. there are a lot of PVP'ers who have been waiting for a decent game to throw themselves into... and GW2 has a lot of potential to be that game..
or i can enjoy Eve instead.. yet another game that does PVP really well (which WoW doesnt btw..WoW is a casual pve game.. it does that bit really well... which is good.. in small doses.) as for how mmorpgs should be done.. is a matter of opinion.. personally im tired of games that seem to think their single player games.. i'll be getting GW2. but it will be for the PVP.. i don't see the PVE as being all that special.. imo.. the PVE in GW2 is probably just something to do when your taking a break from the PVP... and probably solo.. the world v world, i see it as being the primary focus of the game.. and rightly so, that part of the game i anticipate being hugely popular.. there are a lot of PVP'ers who have been waiting for a decent game to throw themselves into... and GW2 has a lot of potential to be that game..
Then that's all that really matters. You get an awesome game and Arenanet get's your money. It's a win-win situation. ^_^
You will still have "damage" classes crying about not getting healed. You will have classes that have better group heals at some points. The warrior classes will be just be better at tanking. And since those classes will try to take the brunt of the damage, they will need heals more then others. But, you will still have players that will just not heal because they only wish to do damage or maybe just heal themselves.
Many DPS players are selfish in that regard. A healer is not. Removing the healer isn't going to suddenly make those DPS unselfish. Sure, in guild groups, you most likely won't have any problem with this system. Just like you didn't have any problem with the trinity in a guild group.
You will still have "damage" classes crying about not getting healed. You will have classes that have better group heals at some points. The warrior classes will be just be better at tanking. And since those classes will try to take the brunt of the damage, they will need heals more then others. But, you will still have players that will just not heal because they only wish to do damage or maybe just heal themselves.
Many DPS players are selfish in that regard. A healer is not. Removing the healer isn't going to suddenly make those DPS unselfish. Sure, in guild groups, you most likely won't have any problem with this system. Just like you didn't have any problem with the trinity in a guild group.
It's the pugging that matters.
Interesting point, but I bet we'll see much less Pugging in GW2 since most of the PvE content revolves around Dynamic Events that caters more to players just walking in and swinging away.
It kind of auto groups you, but it doesn't require you to form a cohesive group. You can walk into an event and be the worst player ever, not even bother assisting another member and only care about yourself yet you'll still end up with the same rewards and absolutely no consequences, so what is the main incentive to group? Where is the interdependancy of classes? Well, there really isn't one, except for environmental combinations, but I don't know enough about them to make a decision on whether they will be significant in changing the flow of combat.
You will still have "damage" classes crying about not getting healed. You will have classes that have better group heals at some points. The warrior classes will be just be better at tanking. And since those classes will try to take the brunt of the damage, they will need heals more then others. But, you will still have players that will just not heal because they only wish to do damage or maybe just heal themselves.
Many DPS players are selfish in that regard. A healer is not. Removing the healer isn't going to suddenly make those DPS unselfish. Sure, in guild groups, you most likely won't have any problem with this system. Just like you didn't have any problem with the trinity in a guild group.
It's the pugging that matters.
The problem, from what I gather, is that not even the warrior will be able to take all of the damage. Warriors and Guardians will be able to take more damage than the other class, but playing them like a traditional tank will get you killed. The "tanks" job will be to keep the mob off everyone else. Which means crippling, slowing, and if necessary blocking. Just standing in one spot, from my understand, and absorbing the damage will get you killed. Same with someone permanently playing the healer role. Defensive skills cost more energy. Which means you will run out of energy quickly the more defensive skills you used, and there are no targetted heal skills. You have ground based AoE heals. Which means everyone needs to look out for everyone. One player goes down, other players have to step in and help control the mob while the downed player is revived.
There are no player targeted heals, only aoe heals. There is no dedicated tank but support skills that can block and control. There will be no space in a dungeon for a player that thinks they can stand at the back and pew pew to their hearts content. If you aren't fully aware of what the mobs are doing (GW has fairly decent mob AI, I expect that to be improved in GW2) and what the players around you are doing you are going to be in trouble.
Anet have spent a lot of time designing the visual effect of skills to give you an immediate visual idea of what that skill is doing and the area it affects, you're going to need to learn to read those visual clues, what they mean, how they will affect you and how you can exploit them. It's not going to be a case of over reliance on two members of the team to heal and control for you, everyone is going to need to learn to do both to some degree.
It's going to make combat much more dynamic for everyone concerned, it's going to demand more involvement and awareness for everyone than most games that follow the holy trinity of tank, heal and dps currently do. It all sounds good to me
Don't they still have 2 unrevealed character classes? At least according to the home page of the official site. So I wouldn't be counting your chickens just yet. Unless they made an official press realease stating that there wont be a main healing class PERIOD. And some how, I don't see that happening. Unless they make healing items so inexpensive that anyone can carry stacks of hundreds of potions, I don't even see how this is a practical idea. For PvE (Hardcore boss fights where 1 or 2 hits means death) or PvP (Think you can survive 6 mages focous firing you at once?). But, we'll see. Sounds like the OP is jumping the gun though. Any proof in this pudding?
P.S: If someone already posted links containing proof. Sorry, but I didn't feel like reading 7 pages of potential troll bait and/or flame wars...
I bet we'll see much less Pugging in GW2 since most of the PvE content revolves around Dynamic Events that caters more to players just walking in and swinging away.
It kind of auto groups you, but it doesn't require you to form a cohesive group. You can walk into an event and be the worst player ever, not even bother assisting another member and only care about yourself yet you'll still end up with the same rewards and absolutely no consequences, so what is the main incentive to group? Where is the interdependancy of classes? Well, there really isn't one, except for environmental combinations, but I don't know enough about them to make a decision on whether they will be significant in changing the flow of combat.
although there is no more monk healbot, the support role still exists. This is another reason why the duration factor is to amorphous to determine. Players dedicated to support increase every other player’s duration of active play by running around and rezzing people or focusing on creature control and interrupts rather than damage. This helps everybody’s energy in the long run.
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Cartwright said that dungeons were more punishing on the (energy) resource end if players were not aware of the battlefield. They would be using more defensive skills, which would ultimately lead to energy exhaustion. He didn’t want to go in to dungeons too much because they were still balancing that content in terms of resource management (and everything else). But, the goal was to make it fun group-based content.
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Peters said that energy is like ammo in an first-person shooter. Players really don’t watch it most of the time, but during periods of heavy activity energy becomes an issue. Yet in Guild Wars 2, the more defensive a player is the more the resource is used. So a player rolling around like crazy will burn themselves out pretty quick. A skilled player using rolls very tactically would be fine.
yes, you can be the worst solo player and be energy starved not being able to use your skills
Originally posted by animeoutlaw Don't they still have 2 unrevealed character classes? At least according to the home page of the official site. So I wouldn't be counting your chickens just yet. Unless they made an official press realease stating that there wont be a main healing class PERIOD. And some how, I don't see that happening. Unless they make healing items so inexpensive that anyone can carry stacks of hundreds of potions, I don't even see how this is a practical idea. For PvE (Hardcore boss fights where 1 or 2 hits means death) or PvP (Think you can survive 6 mages focous firing you at once?). But, we'll see. Sounds like the OP is jumping the gun though. Any proof in this pudding?
P.S: If someone already posted links containing proof. Sorry, but I didn't feel like reading 7 pages of potential troll bait and/or flame wars...
That is why Guild Wars 2 does not have a dedicated healing class.
Interesting, though it looks like based on their example of the Warriros "I will avenge you" rally skill; they just passed the batton to every other player class. Making it even easier to stay alive in combat. Well, be revived in combat, anyway xD.
You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no.
There are two very important reasons for this!
Self heals.
You cannot target friendly players.
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have an area of effect heal which is equal in power to others.
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have crowd control abilities that are of equal effect.
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
its funny how people somehow think that "having no dedicated healing class" is synonymous with "boring and no diversity." the moment someone tries to pull them away from the the archaic healer-tank-dps formula they start screaming bloody murder. just because you guys cant think outside the box and comprehend how a game can be fun and interesting using different kinds of mechanics you are unfamiliar with, doesnt mean its not possible.
Wake up, it is only the first step on the path to a dedicated zerg system. Ever played one of the monster hunter-type games that are unusually popular with the japanese these days? If not, go to youtube and look up any old clip of a Godzilla movie, and notice how chaotic and ineffective it is for the military to hurl endless tanks at a maurading monster. There you just played all of them.
PVE, boss fights in particular, works best with roles. I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that you don't like being chased around by a boss while you are trying to camp in the corner and fling your arrows. Things like tanks prevent that from happening, they will be the next thing to go if people like you continue to have their way.
LOL someone obviously hasn't played any Monster hunter games before. Its about strategy timing and not getting greedy, sure its gets easier once you recognize the pattern. But in no way shape or form is it a mindless zergfest.
See, the problem with this new system is that now I have to depend on everyone in the group being as saavy as I am in order to succeed, when before all I had to worry about for the most part was having a smart healer (which was usually myself) and tank, and DPS players with at least enough brains to move out of damage and not over aggro. (no small feat apparently for some folks)
Now everyone has to be smart enough to heal themselves (and others I suppose), tank when its time to tank, cc when its time to cc etc. I'm sure I'm up to the challenge, not so sure about my fellow players.
I know what will happen, the better players will find each other and stick together, the rest will gnash their teeth about how unfair the game is.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all pans out though, genre could use a shake up and I'm hoping GW2 is a game to do it.
Well having come from a predominantly FPS background: be it Call of Duty, Battlefield or Borderlands; I'm used to playing games where everyone has to carry their own weight and those that don't pull their own weight must get used to being shunned. So that fact that we have people like you who fear being looked upon as a noob, because you're used to just following your DPS rotation, just shows how boringly predictable and "safe" the standard MMO combat is. If what worries you about GW2, is that you will no longer be able to blame the tank or healer, then you should just stick to playing ranged DPS in any other MMO.
It's remarkable that people fear challenge in a video game, but I guess I'll never understand those people since I've always been good in games and always had good friends to play with.
What's remarkable is how badly you misread my post, try again. I have no fear of being looked upon as noob I assure you.
(Play DPS rotation, who plays DPS?)
OK... Gotta admit, I did misread the last line (not the 1st time I've done that) and I apologies for that, yet you still came up with the notion that people who are too rubbish to adapt to a trinity-less game will have trouble with this trinity-less game, especially when there's no healer to fall back on. And this is not the 1st time I've heard someone bring up this concern, so I stand by my point about how this is such a common thing in FPS games and I just don't understand why people fear skill-based challenge.
Also people do enjoy playing DPS rotations, since LOTRO is full of hunters and Rift is full of Rogues & Warriors.
I hear you, but Kyleran does have a point. Some people aren't good at shooters. Those people are still able to complete in many MMORPGs where skill matters less. Those people are coming to play GW2 in droves.
it is only the first step on the path to a dedicated zerg system.
This could feasibly happen of those people ^^ complain enough. Hopefully Anet can find a way to please both crowds without segregating them too much. It would be nice for them to be able to work together.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I think this thread really encapsulates a major problem with the industry. Anybody who tries to look forward and tries to look at how to do things differently (I.E removing the idea of a class in favor of creating characters) is immediately detracted as someone who is just trying to destroy these games and turn them into mindless -fests.
Well I'll let you in on a little secret. The trinity, as it is right now, is still reliant on zergfest and tankfesting galore. We're not talking about removing boss mechanics....how anyone is jumping to that conclusion is beyond me. If anything, we're talking about making paying attention to what a boss is doing far more important. The vast majority of modern boss mechanics are balanced around people (mostly healers) having a specific range of power. Once people far, far outreach this range then you can usually just faceroll through those same boss mechanics.
Right now you still zerg out on PvE content, it's just with DPS. Ranged dps classes have always had it easy and it's remarkably easy to fall asleep playing a ranged dps. Melee dps usually get the shaft in boss mechanics and if your healers have bad reaction times or you don't have enough of them then you get screwed. Considering most current encounters are balanced around needing specific numbers of healers/tanks you run into a situation where you start building raid groups where you always have specific healers and tanks, but dps is...it's dps, it mostly doesn't matter. However, I have seen raids not even happen because just ONE healer and ONE tank happened to not be around.
Does it make sense to screw over 23 (or more) other people just because TWO people can't show up?
Trying to have back-ups doesn't usually work unless your guild builds a second raid group and finding people to organize these things can be hard.....mostly because your organizers are busy with the primary raid group. The reason for this is simple: Your back-ups probably aren't going to keep up in terms of gear with your main healers so having them usually doesn't mean anything.
Removing the necessity for specific classes isn't going to increase the zerg-factor because it's already there in spades. All it's going to do is just change what the horde of players looks like. Really, all most of the detractors are worried about is playing games that are a little more difficult, but they don't want to admit it.
PS
The only real solution to the problems I bring up is to do what WoW did with the whole emblem thing. I never liked the idea and I'm completely tired of devs basically giving away gear. Especially when they keep upgrading what gear you can get in this manner and they can make a complete joke of someone who spent far more time raiding for worse gear. Emblems themselves aren't a bad idea.....just keep them to dropping in raids only so everybody who goes can at least get something.
Regarding healing, I see it like this: "healing" is ultimately a means to keep one or more people alive. That is the fundamental purpose of it. What ANET is doing is making "keeping players alive" a more dynamic venture. Unlike many other MMO's, things like skill disruption, run-speed reduction, damage mitigation, buffs and enchantments, etc., etc., are not just things that make the dedicated life-restorer's job a little easier; they can actually work as viable alternatives to life-restoration.
They're also allowing more classes to effectively fulfill the role of "death-preventer", negating the need to wait for the one particular class that can do it effectively before you can enter a dungeon, as well as making it so that no matter what class you choose to play, you will not be forced into that one particular role for any extended period of time; you may be a supporter for one particular dungeon, but you could easily be DPS the next, and that's assuming you're group agrees ahead of time to assign different people with different roles. You and everyone else can easily change your roles mid-dungeon/battle dynamically based on what's needed at any given moment.
Originally posted by Garvon3 I guess you played some poorly balanced MMOs then. A healer is always a great help sure, but we were able to group just fine without one.
I don't pretend to have played all the MMO's out there but I haven't come across any dungeon content in any game so far that doesn't require a healer of some shape or form, which well balanced games are you talking about?
Comments
That's pure projection.
One thing players will have to learn is that the mobs are smarter than the WoW drones that you might be used to. Damage isn't the only thing they take into account when they select targets. Basing it off GW1's AI (since there's no reason not to), mobs are quite capable of picking out the soft targets, evaluating whether or not they have a decent chance of reaching them, then bee-lining for them because that's the most effective way to apply pressure. Yes, that means you better be paying attention and you better be on the ball because you will be responsible for keeping yourself on your feet while under pressure until help arrives.
The "roles" you describe are pretty much the dullest, most single-dimensional mechanic that you can encounter in a game. It's just glorified rock-paper-scissors because your role defines your capabilities, not the other way around. If you're not able to take responsibility for yourself, adjust to fluid situations and modify your game on the fly, you will have a rough ride. That's not a failure of the system, that's a shortcoming of the player.
If you don't like getting chased around while you're trying to camp a corner and pewpew arrows at the boss, you're either: 1) camping the wrong corner, move to another one; 2) not effectively making use of your allies' skills (they're there for you too, not just for the player who invoked them); 3) not using your own skills properly; or 4) lazy.
The first three can be corrected through experience or tips from the experienced. The last one can't be helped because that's a character flaw so you're on your own. Expect to become very familar with GW2's Downed State mechanics.
By the way, tanks are already gone. Learn to dodge.
well, you are always free to enjoy your WoW account for the next decade or so, because you dont seem like you want to try a new take on how mmorpgs should be done- you just want more of the same thing just with a different skin.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
for those who enjoyed playing healers in other MMO's you should really give the Guardian a shot. it's like healing, but instead of filling up someone's green bar, you make it go down slower. you guys really have to get your minds around it, it's not that hard.
Eliminating healers & tanks will do a lot of things, like removing the dependancy on those classes and forcing people to depend on themselves and the rest of the team, not just those classes that keeps everyone alive. And of course it'll make finding groups a hell of a lot easier. As for the blame for a wipe, at least the blame can be shared amongst the group or on that one noob who kept on dying, instead of the tank & healer. I'm sick of seeing Champions & Hunters in LOTRO, standing fire or purple smoke and blaming the healer for not healing them, once they wind up dead. Blame in GW2 should be shared amongst a group for failing to adapt, or on that one guy trying to Leeroy Jenkins his way though the dungeon, not on the Healer standing in the back for not handing out band-aids fast enough.
yeah i dont understand why people find it impossible to have a support role in a game without utilizing a healing mechanic.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
But without a "taunt" to keep a mob hitting him, what good will that warrior be?
I don't know if you played GW1, but it is entirely possible for an elementalist, assassin, monk, etc. to soak up mob damage and control the battlefield. We already know in GW2 that the Guardian (heavy armor but lower hp than warriors) can put up walls and barriers to absorb and deflect damage.
I would be pleased when the group wipes people do not automaticaly point at the healer. This game will put an end to that. Even if it is unfairly done there is always that happening all over the place. Even if you know as a healer you are not to blame when others all send you tells scolding you or shout at you in the group it still feels awful. I for one am glad no one can make you responsible for their stupidity. Good if people are made responsible for their own life and consequences. I am looking forward to that.
or i can enjoy Eve instead.. yet another game that does PVP really well (which WoW doesnt btw..WoW is a casual pve game.. it does that bit really well... which is good.. in small doses.) as for how mmorpgs should be done.. is a matter of opinion.. personally im tired of games that seem to think their single player games.. i'll be getting GW2. but it will be for the PVP.. i don't see the PVE as being all that special.. imo.. the PVE in GW2 is probably just something to do when your taking a break from the PVP... and probably solo.. the world v world, i see it as being the primary focus of the game.. and rightly so, that part of the game i anticipate being hugely popular.. there are a lot of PVP'ers who have been waiting for a decent game to throw themselves into... and GW2 has a lot of potential to be that game..
Then that's all that really matters. You get an awesome game and Arenanet get's your money. It's a win-win situation. ^_^
You will still have "damage" classes crying about not getting healed. You will have classes that have better group heals at some points. The warrior classes will be just be better at tanking. And since those classes will try to take the brunt of the damage, they will need heals more then others. But, you will still have players that will just not heal because they only wish to do damage or maybe just heal themselves.
Many DPS players are selfish in that regard. A healer is not. Removing the healer isn't going to suddenly make those DPS unselfish. Sure, in guild groups, you most likely won't have any problem with this system. Just like you didn't have any problem with the trinity in a guild group.
It's the pugging that matters.
Interesting point, but I bet we'll see much less Pugging in GW2 since most of the PvE content revolves around Dynamic Events that caters more to players just walking in and swinging away.
It kind of auto groups you, but it doesn't require you to form a cohesive group. You can walk into an event and be the worst player ever, not even bother assisting another member and only care about yourself yet you'll still end up with the same rewards and absolutely no consequences, so what is the main incentive to group? Where is the interdependancy of classes? Well, there really isn't one, except for environmental combinations, but I don't know enough about them to make a decision on whether they will be significant in changing the flow of combat.
The problem, from what I gather, is that not even the warrior will be able to take all of the damage. Warriors and Guardians will be able to take more damage than the other class, but playing them like a traditional tank will get you killed. The "tanks" job will be to keep the mob off everyone else. Which means crippling, slowing, and if necessary blocking. Just standing in one spot, from my understand, and absorbing the damage will get you killed. Same with someone permanently playing the healer role. Defensive skills cost more energy. Which means you will run out of energy quickly the more defensive skills you used, and there are no targetted heal skills. You have ground based AoE heals. Which means everyone needs to look out for everyone. One player goes down, other players have to step in and help control the mob while the downed player is revived.
There are no player targeted heals, only aoe heals. There is no dedicated tank but support skills that can block and control. There will be no space in a dungeon for a player that thinks they can stand at the back and pew pew to their hearts content. If you aren't fully aware of what the mobs are doing (GW has fairly decent mob AI, I expect that to be improved in GW2) and what the players around you are doing you are going to be in trouble.
Anet have spent a lot of time designing the visual effect of skills to give you an immediate visual idea of what that skill is doing and the area it affects, you're going to need to learn to read those visual clues, what they mean, how they will affect you and how you can exploit them. It's not going to be a case of over reliance on two members of the team to heal and control for you, everyone is going to need to learn to do both to some degree.
It's going to make combat much more dynamic for everyone concerned, it's going to demand more involvement and awareness for everyone than most games that follow the holy trinity of tank, heal and dps currently do. It all sounds good to me
Don't they still have 2 unrevealed character classes? At least according to the home page of the official site. So I wouldn't be counting your chickens just yet. Unless they made an official press realease stating that there wont be a main healing class PERIOD. And some how, I don't see that happening. Unless they make healing items so inexpensive that anyone can carry stacks of hundreds of potions, I don't even see how this is a practical idea. For PvE (Hardcore boss fights where 1 or 2 hits means death) or PvP (Think you can survive 6 mages focous firing you at once?). But, we'll see. Sounds like the OP is jumping the gun though. Any proof in this pudding?
P.S: If someone already posted links containing proof. Sorry, but I didn't feel like reading 7 pages of potential troll bait and/or flame wars...
one word, ENERGY
http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/11/29/gw2-interview-on-energy-and-skills-pt-1/
although there is no more monk healbot, the support role still exists. This is another reason why the duration factor is to amorphous to determine. Players dedicated to support increase every other player’s duration of active play by running around and rezzing people or focusing on creature control and interrupts rather than damage. This helps everybody’s energy in the long run.
...
Cartwright said that dungeons were more punishing on the (energy) resource end if players were not aware of the battlefield. They would be using more defensive skills, which would ultimately lead to energy exhaustion. He didn’t want to go in to dungeons too much because they were still balancing that content in terms of resource management (and everything else). But, the goal was to make it fun group-based content.
...
Peters said that energy is like ammo in an first-person shooter. Players really don’t watch it most of the time, but during periods of heavy activity energy becomes an issue. Yet in Guild Wars 2, the more defensive a player is the more the resource is used. So a player rolling around like crazy will burn themselves out pretty quick. A skilled player using rolls very tactically would be fine.
yes, you can be the worst solo player and be energy starved not being able to use your skills
but you call that fun ?
EQ2 fan sites
There we go
Interesting, though it looks like based on their example of the Warriros "I will avenge you" rally skill; they just passed the batton to every other player class. Making it even easier to stay alive in combat. Well, be revived in combat, anyway xD.
Neat idea though. Should be different.
removed my "no dedicated healer" link
- someone beat me to it
EQ2 fan sites
@Swanea
You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no.
There are two very important reasons for this!
Self heals.
You cannot target friendly players.
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have an area of effect heal which is equal in power to others.
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
All classes have crowd control abilities that are of equal effect.
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
LOL someone obviously hasn't played any Monster hunter games before. Its about strategy timing and not getting greedy, sure its gets easier once you recognize the pattern. But in no way shape or form is it a mindless zergfest.
I hear you, but Kyleran does have a point. Some people aren't good at shooters. Those people are still able to complete in many MMORPGs where skill matters less. Those people are coming to play GW2 in droves.
This could feasibly happen of those people ^^ complain enough. Hopefully Anet can find a way to please both crowds without segregating them too much. It would be nice for them to be able to work together.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I think this thread really encapsulates a major problem with the industry. Anybody who tries to look forward and tries to look at how to do things differently (I.E removing the idea of a class in favor of creating characters) is immediately detracted as someone who is just trying to destroy these games and turn them into mindless -fests.
Well I'll let you in on a little secret. The trinity, as it is right now, is still reliant on zergfest and tankfesting galore. We're not talking about removing boss mechanics....how anyone is jumping to that conclusion is beyond me. If anything, we're talking about making paying attention to what a boss is doing far more important. The vast majority of modern boss mechanics are balanced around people (mostly healers) having a specific range of power. Once people far, far outreach this range then you can usually just faceroll through those same boss mechanics.
Right now you still zerg out on PvE content, it's just with DPS. Ranged dps classes have always had it easy and it's remarkably easy to fall asleep playing a ranged dps. Melee dps usually get the shaft in boss mechanics and if your healers have bad reaction times or you don't have enough of them then you get screwed. Considering most current encounters are balanced around needing specific numbers of healers/tanks you run into a situation where you start building raid groups where you always have specific healers and tanks, but dps is...it's dps, it mostly doesn't matter. However, I have seen raids not even happen because just ONE healer and ONE tank happened to not be around.
Does it make sense to screw over 23 (or more) other people just because TWO people can't show up?
Trying to have back-ups doesn't usually work unless your guild builds a second raid group and finding people to organize these things can be hard.....mostly because your organizers are busy with the primary raid group. The reason for this is simple: Your back-ups probably aren't going to keep up in terms of gear with your main healers so having them usually doesn't mean anything.
Removing the necessity for specific classes isn't going to increase the zerg-factor because it's already there in spades. All it's going to do is just change what the horde of players looks like. Really, all most of the detractors are worried about is playing games that are a little more difficult, but they don't want to admit it.
PS
The only real solution to the problems I bring up is to do what WoW did with the whole emblem thing. I never liked the idea and I'm completely tired of devs basically giving away gear. Especially when they keep upgrading what gear you can get in this manner and they can make a complete joke of someone who spent far more time raiding for worse gear. Emblems themselves aren't a bad idea.....just keep them to dropping in raids only so everybody who goes can at least get something.
Regarding healing, I see it like this: "healing" is ultimately a means to keep one or more people alive. That is the fundamental purpose of it. What ANET is doing is making "keeping players alive" a more dynamic venture. Unlike many other MMO's, things like skill disruption, run-speed reduction, damage mitigation, buffs and enchantments, etc., etc., are not just things that make the dedicated life-restorer's job a little easier; they can actually work as viable alternatives to life-restoration.
They're also allowing more classes to effectively fulfill the role of "death-preventer", negating the need to wait for the one particular class that can do it effectively before you can enter a dungeon, as well as making it so that no matter what class you choose to play, you will not be forced into that one particular role for any extended period of time; you may be a supporter for one particular dungeon, but you could easily be DPS the next, and that's assuming you're group agrees ahead of time to assign different people with different roles. You and everyone else can easily change your roles mid-dungeon/battle dynamically based on what's needed at any given moment.
I guess you played some poorly balanced MMOs then. A healer is always a great help sure, but we were able to group just fine without one.
I don't pretend to have played all the MMO's out there but I haven't come across any dungeon content in any game so far that doesn't require a healer of some shape or form, which well balanced games are you talking about?