Its interesting that F2P companies like Perfect World and Nexon are following SWTOR so closely. If it becomes the standard mmo format, theyre going to have to start making mmos with a strong srpg element. This could be a bad thing because it strays even further from the "virtual world" concept of early mmo design. Every major mmo coming out right now is HEAVILY combat based. Add to that some heavy srpg backbone and you have an online action rpg. Goodbye virtual worlds.
The article was interesting, but I dont know that what it said should shock or surprise anyone. TOR is a AAA MMO from one of the most highly regarded developers out there. People are going to watch it closely and see what it does. The recent trend has been towards FTP games, and away from subs, so the dev's quoted have reason to pay attention. If the focus on story catches on, yet another reason for groups to go that direction as well (note that Bioware isnt alone, Funcom is betting heavily on story for Secret World as well)
The two biggest hurdles Bioware has in the current MMO marketplace is people who dont know what it is (and talking about it like they do) and the perception of being a WoW clone.
You see the extremeism in point one, folks here cling to the idea that having a class arc means it is a single player game with some elements of MMO. How shocked will they be once they get past the starter worlds, and the class quests taper off (even though we are talking 200 hours of 'em) and we see a traditional MMO world? One that is just as open, playable, and group focused as current heavyweights? The addition of a class arc in their minds superceeds that, and it's nothing more than a single player game. There cant be a middle ground, or even single player content within an MMO to them.
Point two. no matter what, existing MMO'ers are going to call it a WoW clone.
So are there good ways it can be similar to WoW? Sure, how about things like realizing that not every potential player has a top end system? What about an attention to detail and a quality release? Both of those are things many MMO's recently have failed at, Age of Conan anyone?
TOR innovates in some different ways, it's quest presentation perhaps the most notable. It isnt re-inventing the genre, it's taking the best of what people like in the current generation and adding their own flavor to it. Is it enough? I have no idea, but it's as much of a WoW clone as WoW was a clone of games like EQ when it launched, it's what happened after that point that really seperated it. We still have not yet seen what all (other than story, some mini-games, and class arc) might seperate TOR.
Its interesting that F2P companies like Perfect World and Nexon are following SWTOR so closely. If it becomes the standard mmo format, theyre going to have to start making mmos with a strong srpg element. This could be a bad thing because it strays even further from the "virtual world" concept of early mmo design. Every major mmo coming out right now is HEAVILY combat based. Add to that some heavy srpg backbone and you have an online action rpg. Goodbye virtual worlds.
One thing I noticed about that article was how every developer was mostly only seeming to look at how one particular aspect of SWTOR would affect there particulr niiche in the MMO genre. F2P's were looking at the subscription models, Sandboxes vs Themeparks, etc. If SWTOR is hugely successful or a complete bomb, it will be a large combination of things, not the one thing that affects one particular niche.
As for your worry about the "Vitual World", exactly how many sandbox games are a huge success? Eve comes to mind right off, yet they are still lagging way behind the Giant Themepark in the neighbothood. Taken even farther, how many sandboxes are even out there as compared to themeparks? From what I have seen, the themeparks seem to already severely out number them. The problem with a sandbox game (in my opinion) is that many, if not most, of them are so much work to do well in compared to a good themepark game. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to come home after a long days work and have to work just as hard in a GAME. I was a fun experience to help me unwind and I am not willing to pay to play a game that I have to work so hard at either.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
GW2 won't suddenly drive the market, because even in the best case scenario, a subscription model game with an average population of 200 - 300K would be more profitable in the long run than if GW2 sold roughly 2 million units every 6 months.
Scratches head
GW2
2 million boxes/digital games at $60
$120 million every six months
VS
TOR
300,000 boxes/digital games at $60
$18,000,000
+
300,000 subscriptions at $15
$4.5 million
X
6 months
= $27 million Subs
+
$18 million Boxes
= $54 Million every six months
This doesn't take into account that the company that made the game only gets rought $7.50 per box sold. The rest goes to the retailer, the publisher etc. And then there is the fact that the box price starts dropping after its been out 3 or 4 months.
Nor of the micro transactions in GW2, whcih people will be much more inclined than in TOR or any P2P buisness model.
Dude, I hate to blow your bubbles, as much as I'd like to see GW2 do this good, I doubt it's happening. GW did what like 7 mil? Over how long, 3-4 years? I just don't see it doing 2mil units every 6 months.
I don't know, GW2 will most likey blow GW1 sales out of the water due to hype plus the game itself. Being a B2P model will provide more lienency. /shrug who knows, just gotta wait till release to see. It might just be 2 mill every 6 months if they can provide content packs that quick, doubt it though as I think will be more of a year thing.
Just like the article said their gonna be watching TOR closely, I think there is gonna be a number of companies watching GW2's release and evalute their buisness model profit along with other things that BG2 is bringing to the table that no one else has and evaluate that success.
Signs show that it'll do great. It has enough brand name to keep it strong for at least a year and it's guaranteed to get a high score, again off brand name alone. WoW and SWG showed that even if your game has a horrible launch and no interesting gameplay mechanics, brand name will get you where you want to go. It helped SWG get through one of the worst launches in history, and it made WoW a success despite WoW not doing anything new when it came out. Personally, I hope it crashes and burns, because it represents the culmination of where the industry has been going since WoW came out. Singleplayer, linear, scripted. Those are the words that describe the main attractions of SWTOR. If its a huge success, game worlds will shrink, socializing will become the less focused upon feature. It'll all be about scripted singleplayer games with a chat box.
"If TOR fails, developers will likely look to revolutionize on different fronts, such as integrating different styles of combat, deeper persistence, more complex economic and social systems, more challenging encounters or one of the many other ways to mix up gameplay without requiring TOR’s massive budget."
I'm hoping SO FREAKING HARD this is what happens. This is what core MMO fans have been saying for years.
Signs show that it'll do great. It has enough brand name to keep it strong for at least a year and it's guaranteed to get a high score, again off brand name alone. WoW and SWG showed that even if your game has a horrible launch and no interesting gameplay mechanics, brand name will get you where you want to go. It helped SWG get through one of the worst launches in history, and it made WoW a success despite WoW not doing anything new when it came out. Personally, I hope it crashes and burns, because it represents the culmination of where the industry has been going since WoW came out. Singleplayer, linear, scripted. Those are the words that describe the main attractions of SWTOR. If its a huge success, game worlds will shrink, socializing will become the less focused upon feature. It'll all be about scripted singleplayer games with a chat box.
"If TOR fails, developers will likely look to revolutionize on different fronts, such as integrating different styles of combat, deeper persistence, more complex economic and social systems, more challenging encounters or one of the many other ways to mix up gameplay without requiring TOR’s massive budget."
I'm hoping SO FREAKING HARD this is what happens. This is what core MMO fans have been saying for years.
{mod edit} I hope SWtOR lives up to the hype and look forward to its release. I like the IP, the systems, large content, attention to detail, story. I will also look forward to the expansions that may upgrade or add new stuff I would like to see. My vote will not be a spate of 'hate it all' but a vote with my money, my perogative.
The OP was about the business end of gaming companies who are looking at this release for straightforward corporate reasons. It will influence future gaming companies in their development of games. If there are 'new' or 'innovative' elements that you want to replace everything then how about giving some positive suggestions in the many many posts. Good ideas are worth posting - hoping for fail gains you or us nothing. If SWtOR suceeds or fails then you have to hope your ideas, whatever they are if any, get seen and acted upon. I actually wish you luck and we would like to see what you got other than complaints. Get positive and show us something, please. I am not being sarcastic or flaming, I am actually curious.
I think TOR is only 1 Front on where the mmorpg battles are being fought. But what everyone is implicitly saying is that if TOR with a STELLAR (pun) IP, a AAA-A development studio and major publisher backing cannot mitigate huge risk aka a failure it changes the scene for AAA MMO development and investing capital for that. Ppl have probably already mentioned that... but my own opinion is that I really hope TOR produces some fantastic story in the MMO genre and huge bioware quality, immersive worlds. My biggest concern is that being a sci-fi (with guns) game whether the combat has enough action and projectile collision and all that super-fast stuff that goes with guns or if the implementation they have chosen is more than sufficient?
Seems it will have most bases covered and be successful.
Originally posted by GMan3 Originally posted by Foomerang Its interesting that F2P companies like Perfect World and Nexon are following SWTOR so closely. If it becomes the standard mmo format, theyre going to have to start making mmos with a strong srpg element. This could be a bad thing because it strays even further from the "virtual world" concept of early mmo design. Every major mmo coming out right now is HEAVILY combat based. Add to that some heavy srpg backbone and you have an online action rpg. Goodbye virtual worlds.
One thing I noticed about that article was how every developer was mostly only seeming to look at how one particular aspect of SWTOR would affect there particulr niiche in the MMO genre. F2P's were looking at the subscription models, Sandboxes vs Themeparks, etc. If SWTOR is hugely successful or a complete bomb, it will be a large combination of things, not the one thing that affects one particular niche. As for your worry about the "Vitual World", exactly how many sandbox games are a huge success? Eve comes to mind right off, yet they are still lagging way behind the Giant Themepark in the neighbothood. Taken even farther, how many sandboxes are even out there as compared to themeparks? From what I have seen, the themeparks seem to already severely out number them. The problem with a sandbox game (in my opinion) is that many, if not most, of them are so much work to do well in compared to a good themepark game. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to come home after a long days work and have to work just as hard in a GAME. I was a fun experience to help me unwind and I am not willing to pay to play a game that I have to work so hard at either. Id just like to see other ways to interact with the world than just combat. There are other aspects to mmos but they are an afterthought at best. shallow crafting that usually is just creating things that compliment combat. node gathering that spawns and despawns; it isnt even a real part of the landscape. and in the end, all you really do to impact anything is kill it. there may be some quests or events that have you do some non combat activities. but its usually just a small break from the overwhelming majority of kill quests.
Are there any devs out there anymore that have the balls to make a dedicated non-combat class? everyone is too scared to take risks. we applaud bioware's storytelling and anets dynamic events and hail them as innovative. but the truth is they are familiar tools used in console games that ultimately have you just go out and kill stuff.
im not saying down with themeparks. im not even saying that sandboxes are superior. but ffs ppl are calling these games an evolution in the genre and all i can see is a one dimensional glorified console port. it just seems like our standards have fallen so low. i used to expect greatness from new mmorpgs. now i just concede to play another beat em up online.
The article was interesting, but I dont know that what it said should shock or surprise anyone. TOR is a AAA MMO from one of the most highly regarded developers out there. People are going to watch it closely and see what it does. The recent trend has been towards FTP games, and away from subs, so the dev's quoted have reason to pay attention. If the focus on story catches on, yet another reason for groups to go that direction as well (note that Bioware isnt alone, Funcom is betting heavily on story for Secret World as well)
The two biggest hurdles Bioware has in the current MMO marketplace is people who dont know what it is (and talking about it like they do) and the perception of being a WoW clone.
You see the extremeism in point one, folks here cling to the idea that having a class arc means it is a single player game with some elements of MMO. How shocked will they be once they get past the starter worlds, and the class quests taper off (even though we are talking 200 hours of 'em) and we see a traditional MMO world? One that is just as open, playable, and group focused as current heavyweights? The addition of a class arc in their minds superceeds that, and it's nothing more than a single player game. There cant be a middle ground, or even single player content within an MMO to them.
Point two. no matter what, existing MMO'ers are going to call it a WoW clone.
So are there good ways it can be similar to WoW? Sure, how about things like realizing that not every potential player has a top end system? What about an attention to detail and a quality release? Both of those are things many MMO's recently have failed at, Age of Conan anyone?
TOR innovates in some different ways, it's quest presentation perhaps the most notable. It isnt re-inventing the genre, it's taking the best of what people like in the current generation and adding their own flavor to it. Is it enough? I have no idea, but it's as much of a WoW clone as WoW was a clone of games like EQ when it launched, it's what happened after that point that really seperated it. We still have not yet seen what all (other than story, some mini-games, and class arc) might seperate TOR.
You know when the devs invited fans to come and play the game, I think some said WoW clone. And MANY people have also played GW2 as well, and I have yet to see anyone say GW2 is a WoW clone.
You know when the devs invited fans to come and play the game, I think some said WoW clone. And MANY people have also played GW2 as well, and I have yet to see anyone say GW2 is a WoW clone.
I've been thinking about this WOW clone thing a lot, and part of me says it's not exactly a bad thing. Granted I do not like WOW, but that's not exactly because of it's game mechanics, it's due to it's presentation. If you really look at a EQ 1or2, LOTOR, WOW or Rift. It's not hard to see they essentially play like an RPG does, yet they don't offer the chief mechanic the RPG's of today strive for, decent narrative and a believable presentation of it. Not that reading is a bad thing, but reading is an activity best suited for relaxation, visual presentation is best served with a side of audio presentation, MMO's hardly offer this. Which Is why I personally get bored in them.
See a game like SWG didn't need all of that, it's focus was on building your own fun, and in larger scale group fun. Themepark games follow a different formula, a formula that's scripted and somewhat guided. I think what that segment of the genre needs is what Bioware is attempting, only time will tell of course though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Signs show that it'll do great. It has enough brand name to keep it strong for at least a year and it's guaranteed to get a high score, again off brand name alone. WoW and SWG showed that even if your game has a horrible launch and no interesting gameplay mechanics, brand name will get you where you want to go. It helped SWG get through one of the worst launches in history, and it made WoW a success despite WoW not doing anything new when it came out. Personally, I hope it crashes and burns, because it represents the culmination of where the industry has been going since WoW came out. Singleplayer, linear, scripted. Those are the words that describe the main attractions of SWTOR. If its a huge success, game worlds will shrink, socializing will become the less focused upon feature. It'll all be about scripted singleplayer games with a chat box.
"If TOR fails, developers will likely look to revolutionize on different fronts, such as integrating different styles of combat, deeper persistence, more complex economic and social systems, more challenging encounters or one of the many other ways to mix up gameplay without requiring TOR’s massive budget."
I'm hoping SO FREAKING HARD this is what happens. This is what core MMO fans have been saying for years.
No, that is what jaded and childish MMO fans have been wanting for years.They pop into every new game's forum and post doom and gloom because the new game isn't catering to what they want. They are like spoiled children who never grew up. To hope that a game fails just because you have a delusion that more games will be made for you is just plain pathetic.
You know when the devs invited fans to come and play the game, I think some said WoW clone. And MANY people have also played GW2 as well, and I have yet to see anyone say GW2 is a WoW clone.
I've been thinking about this WOW clone thing a lot, and part of me says it's not exactly a bad thing. Granted I do not like WOW, but that's not exactly because of it's game mechanics, it's due to it's presentation.
If you really look at a EQ 1or2, LOTOR, WOW or Rift. It's not hard to see they essentially play like an RPG does, yet they don't offer the chief mechanic the RPG's of today strive for, decent narrative and a believable presentation of it. Not that reading is a bad thing, but reading is an activity best suited for relaxation, visual presentation is best served with a side of audio presentation, MMO's hardly offer this. Which Is why I personally get bored in them.
See a game like SWG didn't need all of that, it's focus was on building your own fun, and in larger scale group fun. Themepark games follow a different formula, a formula that's scripted and somewhat guided. I think what that segment of the genre needs is what Bioware is attempting, only time will tell of course though.
Ditto I agree with you 100%. All the single player RPG have massive cinematics and and massive VO. I hate how WoW, Rift LOTOR play. If I need to read, I should be reading my school books. It's just not entertaining reading quests in the game.
But that's just a very small part. The post above me quotes how TOR failing will generate more different ideas. TOR's got VO but so does GW2 and TSW. But the later two are brining different ideas to the table while TOR is still following the WoW's mechanics: Quests similar to how WoW does it except with VO, Trinity, similar combat style. Dynamic Events, could you compare to the WoW's quests? Hardy now.
But that's just a very small part. The post above me quotes how TOR failing will generate more different ideas. TOR's got VO but so does GW2 and TSW. But the later two are brining different ideas to the table while TOR is still following the WoW's mechanics: Quests similar to how WoW does it except with VO, Trinity, similar combat style. Dynamic Events, could you compare to the WoW's quests? Hardy now.
I think that most people are fully aware that SWTOR is closer to the WoW instigated themepark design than MMO's like GW2 or TSW. So, it stands to reason that less people will call games like that a WoW clone than they will MMO's like SWTOR, Rift and TERA that stay closer to the current themepark MMO standard.
Although I'm also pretty sure that as soon as people encounter gameplay that feels familiar to them and that they don't like, they'll start using the 'WoW clone' tag for those other MMO's as well, not in large amounts, but some people will say it. 'WoW clone' is more a term used to vent dislike than be an accurate description of reality, so as soon as dislike settles in with some people, you'll see 'WoW clone' cry outs emerge.
Anyway, this is going off tangent, we'll see how things progress in the months to come.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And then I can also understand why many people are so focused on targeting SWTOR for criticisms or persistent rants. Because apparently SWTOR is where the stakes are: if it's very successful, then it'll be a sign towards the industry for many years to come that the WoW instigated themepark design is indeed the best direction to develop your MMO in, which can be a nightmare scenario to those MMO gamers that abhor that type of MMO's. But if it fails, if even a BW with an IP as Star Wars and the backing of Lucasarts and EA can't achieve a degree of success that comes closer to WoW's gigantic succes than MMO's up till now have, then this will have a resounding impact in the MMO industry as well and could possibly be the beginning of the end for themepark MMO design as the dominant choice for devs and MMO companies to develop their MMO in, if big budget investments in MMO's will be done anyway after such a significant failure.
While your right about the the future if ToR is a success, the past years shows you're probably wrong about what a ToR failure means. Sure the SW IP is a force to be reckoned with, but the many many failures of WoW-esque games hasn't done much to inspire companies to try something difference with the exceoption of FF14, and well... we know how that turned out.
It doesn't matter how many other have failed, all developers want to see is there was this major cashcow 3~ years agoand they want in on it if it's still there and they're willing to keep scouring.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Its interesting that F2P companies like Perfect World and Nexon are following SWTOR so closely. If it becomes the standard mmo format, theyre going to have to start making mmos with a strong srpg element. This could be a bad thing because it strays even further from the "virtual world" concept of early mmo design. Every major mmo coming out right now is HEAVILY combat based. Add to that some heavy srpg backbone and you have an online action rpg. Goodbye virtual worlds.
One thing I noticed about that article was how every developer was mostly only seeming to look at how one particular aspect of SWTOR would affect there particulr niiche in the MMO genre. F2P's were looking at the subscription models, Sandboxes vs Themeparks, etc. If SWTOR is hugely successful or a complete bomb, it will be a large combination of things, not the one thing that affects one particular niche.
As for your worry about the "Vitual World", exactly how many sandbox games are a huge success? Eve comes to mind right off, yet they are still lagging way behind the Giant Themepark in the neighbothood. Taken even farther, how many sandboxes are even out there as compared to themeparks? From what I have seen, the themeparks seem to already severely out number them. The problem with a sandbox game (in my opinion) is that many, if not most, of them are so much work to do well in compared to a good themepark game. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to come home after a long days work and have to work just as hard in a GAME. I was a fun experience to help me unwind and I am not willing to pay to play a game that I have to work so hard at either.
Id just like to see other ways to interact with the world than just combat. There are other aspects to mmos but they are an afterthought at best. shallow crafting that usually is just creating things that compliment combat. node gathering that spawns and despawns; it isnt even a real part of the landscape. and in the end, all you really do to impact anything is kill it. there may be some quests or events that have you do some non combat activities. but its usually just a small break from the overwhelming majority of kill quests.
Are there any devs out there anymore that have the balls to make a dedicated non-combat class? everyone is too scared to take risks. we applaud bioware's storytelling and anets dynamic events and hail them as innovative. but the truth is they are familiar tools used in console games that ultimately have you just go out and kill stuff.
im not saying down with themeparks. im not even saying that sandboxes are superior. but ffs ppl are calling these games an evolution in the genre and all i can see is a one dimensional glorified console port. it just seems like our standards have fallen so low. i used to expect greatness from new mmorpgs. now i just concede to play another beat em up online.
I can see where you and a few other people would want the kind of "virtual World" you are talking about. I just think that it will , at least for now, be a niche group of people. The majority of people, in my opinion, do not want to work almost as hard at a game as they do in real life. It kind of defeats the purpose of it being a game.
As for developers having the guts to create a non-combat class . . . if my previous paragraph is as true as I think it is, where would the financial reward be?
Lastly, in regards to your "evolution in the genre", I don't know how old you are, but I am old enough to remember playing games on a brand new Atari 2600. Defender was my favorite and to this day I can go back and play the game for a lot of enjoyment. The games today are SO FAR SUPERIOR though that to say they are an evolution in the genre is quite a severe understatement. It may not be the evolution YOU want to see, but gaming IS evolving upwards every day. Also you seem to forget that the ENTIRE genre of MMO gaming is limited by the equipment that people OUTSIDE of the developing company own. They can make the next greatest game EVAR, but if few people have the equipment capable of playing it, then it will be a financial flop no matter how good the game is to play.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
How does one set a standard by following a standard? The article itself says how both SWTOR and WoW are identical save SWTOR's story-driven narrative. The problem is people don't care enough about story to sit through it each and every time, every day, through ever character they make. Sure it'll be entertaining at first, but sometimes people just want to log in for an hour and progress their character without sitting through a bunch of cut scenes and dialog. There are some who will LOVE the storyline and adore it for what it is, but that isn't the majority of the player base.
I do think SWTOR is going to be successful. People enjoy the WoW mentality and while it's been carbon-copied to hell, it's never really been done in more of a Sci-Fi setting which people have been asking for, for a while. Further, its based on a well-loved IP. It really can't go wrong. But setting a standard? Noes.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
GW2 isn't just B2P it has micro-transactions(not like most F2Ps, this one gives you aesthetic things..Things that don't make you stronger than another player, simply look better so it wont just make money from Box sales.
I thought this thread was about if SW:TOR will change the genre or not. It is turning into another meeting of GW2 fans and SW:TOR to argue about which one is more innovative and crap like that >_<
No matter how hard I try, just can't understand how the AUDIO and VOICE of this game will not change up the game for MMOs. It's comparing movies with talking actors to silent movies (where you had to read text subtitles at the bottom of the screen).
I only watched a few SWTOR gameplay videos and it already feels unbelievable weird when in other MMOs when I click on an NPC and their lips don't move, their facial expressions don't change. They rotate towards me like a robot standing on a turntable and some badly acted is played from their telepathic brain (because their lips arent moving) lol, and a quest box pops up that has nothing to do with what their short telepathic audio said. And then I read what they are "saying."
This is very different from SWTOR, from what I've seen in video previews. Do people not realize that for MMOs its a massive change to have this much voice acting from start to endgame? And once you have a fully voiced MMO like this would or could most future MMOs ever go back to not being fully NPC voiced and acted?
How does one set a standard by following a standard? The article itself says how both SWTOR and WoW are identical save SWTOR's story-driven narrative. The problem is people don't care enough about story to sit through it each and every time, every day, through ever character they make. Sure it'll be entertaining at first, but sometimes people just want to log in for an hour and progress their character without sitting through a bunch of cut scenes and dialog. There are some who will LOVE the storyline and adore it for what it is, but that isn't the majority of the player base.
I do think SWTOR is going to be successful. People enjoy the WoW mentality and while it's been carbon-copied to hell, it's never really been done in more of a Sci-Fi setting which people have been asking for, for a while. Further, its based on a well-loved IP. It really can't go wrong. But setting a standard? Noes.
First, with each character, the story will be completely different. There will be hundreds of "unique" class story. Quests and story you will only see by playing each class. Now many don't want to play all eight classes for over a thousand hours of "unique" story. But that is a big change from the MMO norm of all the same content for every alt. Minus the starter zone for some.
But the biggest difference from the WoW clone formula is "choice". No other MMO will give you the ability to change your quest path with choice consistantly through the game. Choices changing the affection level of your companions that can cause them to leave you and increase or decrease the quality of your crafting product. Alignment change that can change what content you see and skills you can or can't have. A chance to change the layout of a flashpoint (dungeon) based on the choice of the qroup. Different mobs, bosses, rewards and endings based on choice. Choice in the world group story quests than change the path of the multi hour quest chain. Having a different ending to your class story based on your choices.
So for me it is not the VO and dialogue sequenses, as much as it is about choice. Having choice in a themepark MMO is something I want to see continue in the future. So having SWTOR succeed and other devs taking note is something I want to see for the future of themepark MMO's.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
How does one set a standard by following a standard? The article itself says how both SWTOR and WoW are identical save SWTOR's story-driven narrative. The problem is people don't care enough about story to sit through it each and every time, every day, through ever character they make. Sure it'll be entertaining at first, but sometimes people just want to log in for an hour and progress their character without sitting through a bunch of cut scenes and dialog. There are some who will LOVE the storyline and adore it for what it is, but that isn't the majority of the player base.
I do think SWTOR is going to be successful. People enjoy the WoW mentality and while it's been carbon-copied to hell, it's never really been done in more of a Sci-Fi setting which people have been asking for, for a while. Further, its based on a well-loved IP. It really can't go wrong. But setting a standard? Noes.
I think the "Standard" they are talking about has more to do with quality than actual difference. Quality in the art style (like it or not, you have to admit it is quality work), quality of the animations, quality in the story, quality in the starting size of the game (much larger than any other game at release than I have ever seen), and the quality of the actual amount of story for each of the 8 different classes. All of these deal with "Upping the Standard".
As for a "Setting the Standard", SWTOR is starting with a fully Voiced Over game. Then there is the blurring of the Holy Trinity Classes (step forward as well in my opinion). But mostly it is the idea of spending the time and money to produce a game that is far ahead of where most games are (developmentally) that is the standard I think most of the other game developers are worried about.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
No matter how hard I try, just can't understand how the AUDIO and VOICE of this game will not change up the game for MMOs. It's comparing movies with talking actors to silent movies (where you had to read text subtitles at the bottom of the screen).
I only watched a few SWTOR gameplay videos and it already feels unbelievable weird when in other MMOs when I click on an NPC and their lips don't move, their facial expressions don't change. They rotate towards me like a robot standing on a turntable and some badly acted is played from their telepathic brain (because their lips arent moving) lol, and a quest box pops up that has nothing to do with what their short telepathic audio said. And then I read what they are "saying."
This is very different from SWTOR, from what I've seen in video previews. Do people not realize that for MMOs its a massive change to have this much voice acting from start to endgame? And once you have a fully voiced MMO like this would or could most future MMOs ever go back to not being fully NPC voiced and acted?
That's the whole argument. They are watching how TOR does. If it's a success then the trend will be towards VO. But I'd like to know if TOR's a failuer, then what the trend would be like? We'll see an end to VO in MMOs?
What if TOR's a failuer and GW2 a big success, what kind of trends well see then?
Comments
there's too much hype for SWTOR, far more than it merits.
So you say fail?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Its interesting that F2P companies like Perfect World and Nexon are following SWTOR so closely. If it becomes the standard mmo format, theyre going to have to start making mmos with a strong srpg element. This could be a bad thing because it strays even further from the "virtual world" concept of early mmo design. Every major mmo coming out right now is HEAVILY combat based. Add to that some heavy srpg backbone and you have an online action rpg. Goodbye virtual worlds.
Extremeism rules the day as usual....
The article was interesting, but I dont know that what it said should shock or surprise anyone. TOR is a AAA MMO from one of the most highly regarded developers out there. People are going to watch it closely and see what it does. The recent trend has been towards FTP games, and away from subs, so the dev's quoted have reason to pay attention. If the focus on story catches on, yet another reason for groups to go that direction as well (note that Bioware isnt alone, Funcom is betting heavily on story for Secret World as well)
The two biggest hurdles Bioware has in the current MMO marketplace is people who dont know what it is (and talking about it like they do) and the perception of being a WoW clone.
You see the extremeism in point one, folks here cling to the idea that having a class arc means it is a single player game with some elements of MMO. How shocked will they be once they get past the starter worlds, and the class quests taper off (even though we are talking 200 hours of 'em) and we see a traditional MMO world? One that is just as open, playable, and group focused as current heavyweights? The addition of a class arc in their minds superceeds that, and it's nothing more than a single player game. There cant be a middle ground, or even single player content within an MMO to them.
Point two. no matter what, existing MMO'ers are going to call it a WoW clone.
So are there good ways it can be similar to WoW? Sure, how about things like realizing that not every potential player has a top end system? What about an attention to detail and a quality release? Both of those are things many MMO's recently have failed at, Age of Conan anyone?
TOR innovates in some different ways, it's quest presentation perhaps the most notable. It isnt re-inventing the genre, it's taking the best of what people like in the current generation and adding their own flavor to it. Is it enough? I have no idea, but it's as much of a WoW clone as WoW was a clone of games like EQ when it launched, it's what happened after that point that really seperated it. We still have not yet seen what all (other than story, some mini-games, and class arc) might seperate TOR.
One thing I noticed about that article was how every developer was mostly only seeming to look at how one particular aspect of SWTOR would affect there particulr niiche in the MMO genre. F2P's were looking at the subscription models, Sandboxes vs Themeparks, etc. If SWTOR is hugely successful or a complete bomb, it will be a large combination of things, not the one thing that affects one particular niche.
As for your worry about the "Vitual World", exactly how many sandbox games are a huge success? Eve comes to mind right off, yet they are still lagging way behind the Giant Themepark in the neighbothood. Taken even farther, how many sandboxes are even out there as compared to themeparks? From what I have seen, the themeparks seem to already severely out number them. The problem with a sandbox game (in my opinion) is that many, if not most, of them are so much work to do well in compared to a good themepark game. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to come home after a long days work and have to work just as hard in a GAME. I was a fun experience to help me unwind and I am not willing to pay to play a game that I have to work so hard at either.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I don't know, GW2 will most likey blow GW1 sales out of the water due to hype plus the game itself. Being a B2P model will provide more lienency. /shrug who knows, just gotta wait till release to see. It might just be 2 mill every 6 months if they can provide content packs that quick, doubt it though as I think will be more of a year thing.
Just like the article said their gonna be watching TOR closely, I think there is gonna be a number of companies watching GW2's release and evalute their buisness model profit along with other things that BG2 is bringing to the table that no one else has and evaluate that success.
Signs show that it'll do great. It has enough brand name to keep it strong for at least a year and it's guaranteed to get a high score, again off brand name alone. WoW and SWG showed that even if your game has a horrible launch and no interesting gameplay mechanics, brand name will get you where you want to go. It helped SWG get through one of the worst launches in history, and it made WoW a success despite WoW not doing anything new when it came out. Personally, I hope it crashes and burns, because it represents the culmination of where the industry has been going since WoW came out. Singleplayer, linear, scripted. Those are the words that describe the main attractions of SWTOR. If its a huge success, game worlds will shrink, socializing will become the less focused upon feature. It'll all be about scripted singleplayer games with a chat box.
"If TOR fails, developers will likely look to revolutionize on different fronts, such as integrating different styles of combat, deeper persistence, more complex economic and social systems, more challenging encounters or one of the many other ways to mix up gameplay without requiring TOR’s massive budget."
I'm hoping SO FREAKING HARD this is what happens. This is what core MMO fans have been saying for years.
I think TOR is only 1 Front on where the mmorpg battles are being fought. But what everyone is implicitly saying is that if TOR with a STELLAR (pun) IP, a AAA-A development studio and major publisher backing cannot mitigate huge risk aka a failure it changes the scene for AAA MMO development and investing capital for that. Ppl have probably already mentioned that... but my own opinion is that I really hope TOR produces some fantastic story in the MMO genre and huge bioware quality, immersive worlds. My biggest concern is that being a sci-fi (with guns) game whether the combat has enough action and projectile collision and all that super-fast stuff that goes with guns or if the implementation they have chosen is more than sufficient?
Seems it will have most bases covered and be successful.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I think ArcheAge is the mmo to be watching for and not SW:ToR.
http://www.aaportal.net/en/
I hope ToR proves me wrong with it's endgame content... but something tells me they won't be bringing anything new to the table.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
As for your worry about the "Vitual World", exactly how many sandbox games are a huge success? Eve comes to mind right off, yet they are still lagging way behind the Giant Themepark in the neighbothood. Taken even farther, how many sandboxes are even out there as compared to themeparks? From what I have seen, the themeparks seem to already severely out number them. The problem with a sandbox game (in my opinion) is that many, if not most, of them are so much work to do well in compared to a good themepark game. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to come home after a long days work and have to work just as hard in a GAME. I was a fun experience to help me unwind and I am not willing to pay to play a game that I have to work so hard at either.
Id just like to see other ways to interact with the world than just combat. There are other aspects to mmos but they are an afterthought at best. shallow crafting that usually is just creating things that compliment combat. node gathering that spawns and despawns; it isnt even a real part of the landscape. and in the end, all you really do to impact anything is kill it. there may be some quests or events that have you do some non combat activities. but its usually just a small break from the overwhelming majority of kill quests.
Are there any devs out there anymore that have the balls to make a dedicated non-combat class? everyone is too scared to take risks. we applaud bioware's storytelling and anets dynamic events and hail them as innovative. but the truth is they are familiar tools used in console games that ultimately have you just go out and kill stuff.
im not saying down with themeparks. im not even saying that sandboxes are superior. but ffs ppl are calling these games an evolution in the genre and all i can see is a one dimensional glorified console port. it just seems like our standards have fallen so low. i used to expect greatness from new mmorpgs. now i just concede to play another beat em up online.
You know when the devs invited fans to come and play the game, I think some said WoW clone. And MANY people have also played GW2 as well, and I have yet to see anyone say GW2 is a WoW clone.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
I've been thinking about this WOW clone thing a lot, and part of me says it's not exactly a bad thing. Granted I do not like WOW, but that's not exactly because of it's game mechanics, it's due to it's presentation. If you really look at a EQ 1or2, LOTOR, WOW or Rift. It's not hard to see they essentially play like an RPG does, yet they don't offer the chief mechanic the RPG's of today strive for, decent narrative and a believable presentation of it. Not that reading is a bad thing, but reading is an activity best suited for relaxation, visual presentation is best served with a side of audio presentation, MMO's hardly offer this. Which Is why I personally get bored in them.
See a game like SWG didn't need all of that, it's focus was on building your own fun, and in larger scale group fun. Themepark games follow a different formula, a formula that's scripted and somewhat guided. I think what that segment of the genre needs is what Bioware is attempting, only time will tell of course though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No, that is what jaded and childish MMO fans have been wanting for years.They pop into every new game's forum and post doom and gloom because the new game isn't catering to what they want. They are like spoiled children who never grew up. To hope that a game fails just because you have a delusion that more games will be made for you is just plain pathetic.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Ditto
I agree with you 100%. All the single player RPG have massive cinematics and and massive VO. I hate how WoW, Rift LOTOR play. If I need to read, I should be reading my school books. It's just not entertaining reading quests in the game.
But that's just a very small part. The post above me quotes how TOR failing will generate more different ideas. TOR's got VO but so does GW2 and TSW. But the later two are brining different ideas to the table while TOR is still following the WoW's mechanics: Quests similar to how WoW does it except with VO, Trinity, similar combat style. Dynamic Events, could you compare to the WoW's quests? Hardy now.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
I think that most people are fully aware that SWTOR is closer to the WoW instigated themepark design than MMO's like GW2 or TSW. So, it stands to reason that less people will call games like that a WoW clone than they will MMO's like SWTOR, Rift and TERA that stay closer to the current themepark MMO standard.
Although I'm also pretty sure that as soon as people encounter gameplay that feels familiar to them and that they don't like, they'll start using the 'WoW clone' tag for those other MMO's as well, not in large amounts, but some people will say it. 'WoW clone' is more a term used to vent dislike than be an accurate description of reality, so as soon as dislike settles in with some people, you'll see 'WoW clone' cry outs emerge.
Anyway, this is going off tangent, we'll see how things progress in the months to come.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
While your right about the the future if ToR is a success, the past years shows you're probably wrong about what a ToR failure means. Sure the SW IP is a force to be reckoned with, but the many many failures of WoW-esque games hasn't done much to inspire companies to try something difference with the exceoption of FF14, and well... we know how that turned out.
It doesn't matter how many other have failed, all developers want to see is there was this major cashcow 3~ years agoand they want in on it if it's still there and they're willing to keep scouring.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
I can see where you and a few other people would want the kind of "virtual World" you are talking about. I just think that it will , at least for now, be a niche group of people. The majority of people, in my opinion, do not want to work almost as hard at a game as they do in real life. It kind of defeats the purpose of it being a game.
As for developers having the guts to create a non-combat class . . . if my previous paragraph is as true as I think it is, where would the financial reward be?
Lastly, in regards to your "evolution in the genre", I don't know how old you are, but I am old enough to remember playing games on a brand new Atari 2600. Defender was my favorite and to this day I can go back and play the game for a lot of enjoyment. The games today are SO FAR SUPERIOR though that to say they are an evolution in the genre is quite a severe understatement. It may not be the evolution YOU want to see, but gaming IS evolving upwards every day. Also you seem to forget that the ENTIRE genre of MMO gaming is limited by the equipment that people OUTSIDE of the developing company own. They can make the next greatest game EVAR, but if few people have the equipment capable of playing it, then it will be a financial flop no matter how good the game is to play.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
How does one set a standard by following a standard? The article itself says how both SWTOR and WoW are identical save SWTOR's story-driven narrative. The problem is people don't care enough about story to sit through it each and every time, every day, through ever character they make. Sure it'll be entertaining at first, but sometimes people just want to log in for an hour and progress their character without sitting through a bunch of cut scenes and dialog. There are some who will LOVE the storyline and adore it for what it is, but that isn't the majority of the player base.
I do think SWTOR is going to be successful. People enjoy the WoW mentality and while it's been carbon-copied to hell, it's never really been done in more of a Sci-Fi setting which people have been asking for, for a while. Further, its based on a well-loved IP. It really can't go wrong. But setting a standard? Noes.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
**oops* I take it all back does not matter to me.
GW2 isn't just B2P it has micro-transactions(not like most F2Ps, this one gives you aesthetic things..Things that don't make you stronger than another player, simply look better
so it wont just make money from Box sales.
I thought this thread was about if SW:TOR will change the genre or not.
It is turning into another meeting of GW2 fans and SW:TOR to argue about which one is more innovative and crap like that >_<
hehehe,hahahahaHAHAHAHA
laughing Hyena, get used to it -_-
No matter how hard I try, just can't understand how the AUDIO and VOICE of this game will not change up the game for MMOs. It's comparing movies with talking actors to silent movies (where you had to read text subtitles at the bottom of the screen).
I only watched a few SWTOR gameplay videos and it already feels unbelievable weird when in other MMOs when I click on an NPC and their lips don't move, their facial expressions don't change. They rotate towards me like a robot standing on a turntable and some badly acted is played from their telepathic brain (because their lips arent moving) lol, and a quest box pops up that has nothing to do with what their short telepathic audio said. And then I read what they are "saying."
This is very different from SWTOR, from what I've seen in video previews. Do people not realize that for MMOs its a massive change to have this much voice acting from start to endgame? And once you have a fully voiced MMO like this would or could most future MMOs ever go back to not being fully NPC voiced and acted?
First, with each character, the story will be completely different. There will be hundreds of "unique" class story. Quests and story you will only see by playing each class. Now many don't want to play all eight classes for over a thousand hours of "unique" story. But that is a big change from the MMO norm of all the same content for every alt. Minus the starter zone for some.
But the biggest difference from the WoW clone formula is "choice". No other MMO will give you the ability to change your quest path with choice consistantly through the game. Choices changing the affection level of your companions that can cause them to leave you and increase or decrease the quality of your crafting product. Alignment change that can change what content you see and skills you can or can't have. A chance to change the layout of a flashpoint (dungeon) based on the choice of the qroup. Different mobs, bosses, rewards and endings based on choice. Choice in the world group story quests than change the path of the multi hour quest chain. Having a different ending to your class story based on your choices.
So for me it is not the VO and dialogue sequenses, as much as it is about choice. Having choice in a themepark MMO is something I want to see continue in the future. So having SWTOR succeed and other devs taking note is something I want to see for the future of themepark MMO's.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I think the "Standard" they are talking about has more to do with quality than actual difference. Quality in the art style (like it or not, you have to admit it is quality work), quality of the animations, quality in the story, quality in the starting size of the game (much larger than any other game at release than I have ever seen), and the quality of the actual amount of story for each of the 8 different classes. All of these deal with "Upping the Standard".
As for a "Setting the Standard", SWTOR is starting with a fully Voiced Over game. Then there is the blurring of the Holy Trinity Classes (step forward as well in my opinion). But mostly it is the idea of spending the time and money to produce a game that is far ahead of where most games are (developmentally) that is the standard I think most of the other game developers are worried about.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
That's the whole argument. They are watching how TOR does. If it's a success then the trend will be towards VO. But I'd like to know if TOR's a failuer, then what the trend would be like? We'll see an end to VO in MMOs?
What if TOR's a failuer and GW2 a big success, what kind of trends well see then?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1