I'm sorry, but how is this "childish"? What is childish about wanting MMOs to go back to how they were originally made/advertised? What's childish about wanting MMOs to push the boundries of whats possible rather than remaking the same WoW clone over and over? What's childish about hoping that a big company releasing more of the same fails to make way for smaller companies releasing new ideas? Sorry, but the only spoiled person here is you who thinks that the only MMos that deserve to be made are the cheap WoW knock offs already being sold in bulk. I favor innovation, creativity, socializing, virtual worlds, what core MMORPG gamers that were here long before the WoW generation of singleplayer time wasters showed up. You're right about one thing though, I am jaded. 9 years of watching my favorite genre sink lower and lower will do that to you.
It appears that you have a grudge against people who play games you don't like, now that would be childish.
I don't have anything against the people playing those games, simply the people telling me to "move on" because it's "their" genre now and there's no room for any innovation, "we want casual games, no one wants your outdated grindathons, go away!".
I DO play the indie games, and so far, those have proven to be the successful one. The last 6 or so WoW clones have all financially failed in one way or another, and gotten smaller over time, meanwhile games like Darkfall expand their game, dev team, open new servers, ect ect.
The problem is, back when MMOs were new, big companies made their own games. Now big companies just copy WoW. That is a huge problem and if you don't see it then you're lost. Stagnation is bad. 8 years of MMOs with maybe 1-2 unique features between them is bad. Let's get back to old.
The "WoW Clones" as you put have all been more successful then any indi dev game save for EvE and even they had a dip in numbers not to long ago.
As for Darkfall I personally like the premise but things like open world pvp in a game with full loot makes a really really really worse then wow community.
I think any game dev would have 1 million copies sold with 50k subs a few years out then 60k subs build up over 5 years.
I'm not so sure that if SWTOR is a success that that really bodes that well for the MMO genre as a whole. If TOR is a success and stays a success then your looking at a budget of 100 million dollars minimum to make a "sucessful" MMO sub based game. I seriously doubt there are that many companies with that kind of cash to throw around. I guess it also depends on where TOR gets it's subs from. If it cannablises subs from other sub based games then to me it would signal that sub based games have reached a saturation point and the best you can really hope for if your developing a sub based game is to nick subs from other games and to do that your going to have to spend big. That or your going to have to depart from the tried and true and hope there is a big enough market out there for whatever your producing. Again your going to have to spend big and most investors are risk adverse most of there money goes to the safe bet with a rather small percentage going to risky enterprises. So my point of veiw is that evan if TOR is a success then doom and gloom could still follow there may be more investors willing to finance such a venture but I am thinking it will be more of the same since WOW except now we would have 2 800 pound gorillas in the same room and it's going to be extrememly tough and expensive to out WOWTOR WOW and TOR.
Then again when Blizzard actually spills the beans on what Titan actually is that could throw everything up in the air all over again.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
I don't have anything against the people playing those games, simply the people telling me to "move on" because it's "their" genre now and there's no room for any innovation, "we want casual games, no one wants your outdated grindathons, go away!".
I DO play the indie games, and so far, those have proven to be the successful one. The last 6 or so WoW clones have all financially failed in one way or another, and gotten smaller over time, meanwhile games like Darkfall expand their game, dev team, open new servers, ect ect.
The problem is, back when MMOs were new, big companies made their own games. Now big companies just copy WoW. That is a huge problem and if you don't see it then you're lost. Stagnation is bad. 8 years of MMOs with maybe 1-2 unique features between them is bad. Let's get back to old.
That wasn't directed at you.
As for those telling you to "go away", I can understand the sentiment, if you're doing what the guy I replied to was doing. There's no reason to bombard people with sandbox rants, especially in a forum for a game that has no desire to be a sandbox. What purpose does it serve?
Older MMO's were for the most part all started by what could be considered Indie teams, which were later bought out by big companies, to be brief, big companies had little hand in their creation only their acquisition. As with anything else, other large companies later followed what had the most commercial success. It's natural and should be expected.
Games like Darkfall, grow because they are catered to an audience seeking it (a niche), there's little competition for games such as it. As an example, EVE and Darkfall hardly compete for the same audience . Mass market games like Rift, LOTOR, WOW, EQ2, etc.... are all competing for the same piece of the MMO market pie, so I think your statement about indie's being more successful is a little off.
Indie's generally serve a niche, which leads to greater player devotion, as well as word of mouth advertising. This is what all old MMO's relied on, and why even today people long for a return to this ( that devotion lead to great communities). Yet at the same time, they in mass do not support what they deem unpolished products, it's really a catch 22 for this side of the MMO spectrum.
BTW, I understand full well that there is an over-saturation in connection to mainstream MMO attempts, I never said otherwise.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by risenbones I'm not so sure that if SWTOR is a success that that really bodes that well for the MMO genre as a whole. If TOR is a success and stays a success then your looking at a budget of 100 million dollars minimum to make a "sucessful" MMO sub based game. I seriously doubt there are that many companies with that kind of cash to throw around. I guess it also depends on where TOR gets it's subs from. If it cannablises subs from other sub based games then to me it would signal that sub based games have reached a saturation point and the best you can really hope for if your developing a sub based game is to nick subs from other games and to do that your going to have to spend big. That or your going to have to depart from the tried and true and hope there is a big enough market out there for whatever your producing. Again your going to have to spend big and most investors are risk adverse most of there money goes to the safe bet with a rather small percentage going to risky enterprises. So my point of veiw is that evan if TOR is a success then doom and gloom could still follow there may be more investors willing to finance such a venture but I am thinking it will be more of the same since WOW except now we would have 2 800 pound gorillas in the same room and it's going to be extrememly tough and expensive to out WOWTOR WOW and TOR.
Then again when Blizzard actually spills the beans on what Titan actually is that could throw everything up in the air all over again.
I can see where you're coming from. But on the flip side, if the standard becomes 100 million dollars minimum for AAA mmorpgs, we could see a boon in the indie/niche mmo market. I could easily see more and more games like Xsyon and Minecraft gaining smaller but loyal customer bases.
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
Some whiny little pipsqueak in an x-wing fighter launches proton torpedos into a tiny exhaust vent on the top of the Bioware Auston headquarters building, setting off a chain reaction that completely destroys said headquarters building?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's staright from the horses mouth.
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
Their main goal is 500k, anything else is a bonus or so it would seem. In light of that I'd assume the 350k figure is their worst case for survivability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
How does one set a standard by following a standard? The article itself says how both SWTOR and WoW are identical save SWTOR's story-driven narrative. The problem is people don't care enough about story to sit through it each and every time, every day, through ever character they make. Sure it'll be entertaining at first, but sometimes people just want to log in for an hour and progress their character without sitting through a bunch of cut scenes and dialog. There are some who will LOVE the storyline and adore it for what it is, but that isn't the majority of the player base.
I do think SWTOR is going to be successful. People enjoy the WoW mentality and while it's been carbon-copied to hell, it's never really been done in more of a Sci-Fi setting which people have been asking for, for a while. Further, its based on a well-loved IP. It really can't go wrong. But setting a standard? Noes.
First, with each character, the story will be completely different. There will be hundreds of "unique" class story. Quests and story you will only see by playing each class. Now many don't want to play all eight classes for over a thousand hours of "unique" story. But that is a big change from the MMO norm of all the same content for every alt. Minus the starter zone for some.
But the biggest difference from the WoW clone formula is "choice". No other MMO will give you the ability to change your quest path with choice consistantly through the game. Choices changing the affection level of your companions that can cause them to leave you and increase or decrease the quality of your crafting product. Alignment change that can change what content you see and skills you can or can't have. A chance to change the layout of a flashpoint (dungeon) based on the choice of the qroup. Different mobs, bosses, rewards and endings based on choice. Choice in the world group story quests than change the path of the multi hour quest chain. Having a different ending to your class story based on your choices.
So for me it is not the VO and dialogue sequenses, as much as it is about choice. Having choice in a themepark MMO is something I want to see continue in the future. So having SWTOR succeed and other devs taking note is something I want to see for the future of themepark MMO's.
Except that that's mostly irrelevant. Notice, I didn't say they'd sit through the SAME story. What I said was, story is not enough. It's not enough in a single-player game, I doubt it will be enough for an MMO. All of that which you said has been seen in other games in some form or another. Playing most of the Bioware games, you'll see this is their signature. Choice. The problem is I don't know many (actually, ANY) players who have sat through and played through a Bioware game a hundred times to experience every possible outcome. Typically what happens is gamers come together to post their playthrough on forums and wikis and that's how the majority of the audience experiences all the diverging paths of a game, through reading about other people's experience of it, not by participating themselves. That changes if there's a particular portion of someone else's story they'd like to experience as well, but overall most will not replay the same thing over and over just to see different dialog when they pick option 2 instead of 1.
Choice has not been done in a MMO like this. And in 200 or so hours of story, you will have a lot of different paths. No way they can all be posted as a playthrough. No one would want to try every choice. Just walking through a space port. A NPC stops you and you have to chose to kill them, intimidate them or walk away. This could change a lot with just that one choice. The point is that your character story will be a bit more unique with the amount of choice. Three choices, light, dark and grey for each dialogue and open world quest. Most of the time there will be many per quest, and hundreds per class. Choices as in killing someone or letting them live. Only to have a different choice in a different chapter of the class story based on that decision. Changing a NPC's affection having that NPC help you or not. With each class story, you will also have 2 different AC's on the same path. Each character will be played different within that story based on skill and how you use it. And that will be for just one class out of eight.
Also, a game is only going to be so different with each playthrough. You may have different options at branching points in the story, but in order to get there and select a different option with a different character you still have to play through all the prior content, which is the same. That would get tedious, quickly. I'm definitely not saying branching storyline is a bad thing, it's lovely, but a good storyline alone is not going to hold people no matter how different it is with each playthrough. You also mention an 'end', which strikes me as odd. If the game ends eventually, how is it an MMO? I assume you mean your personal story ends, but then what? Then you're left replaying the same content repeatedly in order for the character you've worked toward to stay relevant and useful? If that's the case, then it truly is only a matter of time before it becomes every other WoW clone where you run out of 'story' and are left merely grinding for gear and achievements, etc.
You are wrong here in regards to the class story. Every quest will be unique, not just the branching parts. There are over 50 novels worth of VO in TOR. So every quest will be completely different for each class. No repeating class quests at all. Now the open world quests will be generic for each planet. Accept for how you are treated based on your alignment. Those will be the same, except for each faction. There will be no repeated quests on the oposite faction. All quests will be different. The MMO features such as flashpoints, PvP warzones and world group quests will be the same per faction though.
The gameplay and class story of the Jedi Warrior will be very different from the Smuggler. Each will start on a different starter world for their first 10 levels. One will be about the Jedi order and the fight with the Sith. The other will be about the underworld and how to exploit or make profit as well as make a name for yourself (in the story). Both will be united in gameplay with the overall world conflict group stories. But the personal class story will be very different. Like two different games.
And the stories will not be mirrors on each side. The Imperial Agent will be a James bond type of story based on missions. And the Smuggler will be more of a Han Solo type of smug humorous story based around smuggling and getting in to tight spots and wiggling out of them through dialogue or a blaster.
Which is why, once again, there has to be more. So no, nothing there sounds like it's breaking the mold or setting a standard.
A SPG level RPG in a MMO is very different. And that will break the mold and set a standard if the millions of SPG players decide that $15 a month is less than $50 every couple of months for a new SPG or Console game.
As for someone else who mentioned they may have meant quality, Rift launched with amazing quality, great graphics and a large amount of content for a game that just went live. I happen to dislike Rift for the same reasons I've talked about above, it's the same as everything else, but if 'polish' was all that was necessary to set a standard, then it's already been done. As for SWTOR's animations, music, and graphic style, I have no problem with it. I think it looks quite nice, actually. That's one of the few upsets from the community I don't quite follow.
There's nothing new here, and while it may be created in a fashion that screams 'quality' (which is looking to be the case) people have been playing the same game with different coats of paint for too long to have their attention held much longer. Notice how gamers flock in and out of games in droves these days. It's fun at first, but the glitter quickly dies away and you find yourself feeling like you've done it all before, somewhere else. It's not enough to get people interested in your game, you have to KEEP that interest, and the best way to do that is offering them something they ~can't~ get somewhere else.
I again have to disagree. TOR will be a very different experience in a MMO setting. It may have been done in SPG's, but not in a MMO. No where else can you have 1600 hours of unique game play content for $50 plus $15 a month. You are talking hundreds of dollars for that amount of SPG game content. And at the same time, you will be in an open MMO world with thousands of other players. Killing them, teaming up for world grouping stories, Flashpoints, Warzones, Crafting, Raiding, world bosses, PvP conflict zones and socializing in an open SW universe MMO.
Obviously we do not know how the game will turn out. Only what we have been given to read, see, play and digest to make an educated guess. But adding a SPG level RPG into a MMO is something other Devs will be looking at and it will make a difference. It may just be the sub, F2P or content choice. But regardless of what kind of game TOR is, Devs and investers will follow TOR.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
I'm sorry, but how is this "childish"? What is childish about wanting MMOs to go back to how they were originally made/advertised? What's childish about wanting MMOs to push the boundries of whats possible rather than remaking the same WoW clone over and over? What's childish about hoping that a big company releasing more of the same fails to make way for smaller companies releasing new ideas? Sorry, but the only spoiled person here is you who thinks that the only MMos that deserve to be made are the cheap WoW knock offs already being sold in bulk. I favor innovation, creativity, socializing, virtual worlds, what core MMORPG gamers that were here long before the WoW generation of singleplayer time wasters showed up. You're right about one thing though, I am jaded. 9 years of watching my favorite genre sink lower and lower will do that to you.
It appears that you have a grudge against people who play games you don't like, now that would be childish. Big companies will always release the "safe" products where as small time indies will try and be a little more niche specific. That's the way mass media works, it's nothing to get up in arms about.
There have been plenty of attempts made by indies to offer up these games you're wanting, guess what? No one supports them. They get lambasted for not meeting AAA standards in polish, or launch features.
The games of the past became great because they had support from those old gamers, EVE is a prime example of that. As is DAOC, AO, AC and EQ. Today all you see is what you're doing right now, I want, I want, I want!... And I want it perfectly suited to me. It isn't going to happen if people like you don't start supporting these indies, if they give up you have no hope. MMO gaming in the mainstream eye is completely different than what it was in the eye of older MMO vets, TOR failing isn't going to change that.
I get so sick of seeing these posts about the olden days, because what mattered back then was community, and support of the product, today it's all about individual petty concerns. Go follow archeage or Darkfall, play EVE, Play Fallen Earth, support the teams trying to mimic the older formulas and stop the e-bitching it solves nothing. The only solution is to show support of the formula that best represents your playstyle, because even in the Indie world revenue rules all.
Exactly. There are plenty of choices for those that desire the so called good ole days and fans of that style of play should be playing those games, not going around to every new AAA themepark title and demanding that it be changed. How often do fans of themepark games pop onto a sandbox game forum and constantly talk about how their game will fail? You won't catch me in a Darkfall forum or Fallen Earth or EVE or EQ. Doing that would be childish and if my pointing that out gets some of their panties in a twist then too bad. If I have to put up with their constant forum littering then they shouldn't act surprised that a little negativity gets thrown right back at them.
And seriously, the fact that I can now level my character by playing a part in a story with choices and consequences is a major step up from the boring old days of slaughtering animals for hours for XP. I like the fact that I now no longer have to stand around a starport hitting LFG just to level XP in a Star Wars MMORPG. It's nice to know that Tatooine won't be littered with empty houses or that my gear won't go dead after only a few weeks of playing. It's nice that there will be many jedi and sith showing themselves in the game and it won't be immersion breaking since they actually belong in this time period. It's nice that I won't have to wait in lines for buffs and heals just to play the game.It's nice to actually be able to walk on Coruscant, Tyhon and the many other worlds that were not available to me before. I don't see how anyone could not see those things I listed as steps up from what we had before but to each his own.
When MMO games first came out, there was no big companies. The big three games were Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, made by small companies when they first came out, Eq eventually got bought by sony and ultima by Ea I believe, but another big company and that is when both games started to go a bit downhill. Not until SWG came out did we see a big company make a mmo and that was just a rehash of ultima and those others with the swg skin, until wow came out and everyone saw there was way more potential for this market, swg then changed and every other game after that has been nothing but wow with a different skin. But lets also not forget those good old days, were not always so good, it catered to the nolifers that didnt have jobs because more time invested in the game meant you could have better stuff and more levels than the normal player. Eq required so much time that a casual player would get turned away from the game because there was not much he could do. In asherons call there was plenty a casual could do but leveling took a long time after a while.
The good old days were many times a pain in the butt, with your whole night spent making up for stuff you lost to some asshat in pvp. Sure the games were fun, the asshole players were not, and wow made a point to make a game where assholes really cant ruin your play time. sure they can annoy it some if on a pvp server but they cant just ruin your play time, and that is why wow is successful.
Indie companies are not going for innovation, hell I dont even know why people keep saying that, there is no such thing as innovation anymore in games. bioware is doing the one thing that has not been done in the mmo space before, great story and voicework, that is innovation for mmos but they get flak for it. Indie companies put out a half finished game with full pvp and sell you a broken game where hardly anything works. People can rail at the system all they want, but until a indie sandbox games earns even close to normal mmo money then you wont see big sandbox games. eve is the only one that comes close. If you were gonna invest millions of dollars into a project, would you invest in eve or world of warcraft. I know which one Im gonna invest in, is the one that is gonna make the most money for me later on and that is wow at this time.
Im not against either system really but the arrogance on both sides of this argument is astounding. themepark players dont own the mmo world and neither do the sandbox players. indie companies with sandbox titles though need to quit releasing halffinished products, I wanted to play three sandbox titles recently, mortal online, fallen earth, and earthrise. mortal and fallen earth i couldnt even get to download from the website and earthrise i gave up on from the reviews on this site, the reviews were so good compared to what players were saying about the game that i figured there was huge problems with the game. so if sandbox titles want my money they need to release a game that is playable, doesnt have to be perfect but it needs to be playable.
Indie companies are not going for innovation, hell I dont even know why people keep saying that, there is no such thing as innovation anymore in games.
Facts are the facts. There are plenty of sandbox games to play if that is your thing. EVE, SWG, DF, MO, FE and the up and coming AA. There are of course even more themepark mmo's to play if that is your thing. I can't for the life of me though understand why there is so much moaning and groaning from the two camps.
I do believe though it is very wrong if you are in one camp to constantly go to the other one, especially when a new game such as TOR is about to be released and try and tear the game down just because it is not being made in the mold you would like it to be and vise versa.
It's so funny how some people think that every new mmo should be made with their particular taste in gaming in mind and think that they hold the ultimate key to what makes a great and fun game.
This is the reason why we have coke, dr. pepper and pepsi. Why they have chevy , ford and toyota. Not everyone is gonna agree on how to get from point A to B but we must all agree that not one single way is so much better than the other.
Indie companies are not going for innovation, hell I dont even know why people keep saying that, there is no such thing as innovation anymore in games.
You don't play a lot of games are you?
ive played more than a few. Most sandbox titles that people say are innovating have nothing but full loot pvp. sorry that is not very innovative to me, it has been done many times before and been shot down by most gamers many times before. that is not what most gamers want and is certainly not what most consider innovative. name me one mmo game other than eve that has broken the mold and made something truly different. if there is one or two that will probably be it.
If anything, a big failure on ToR's part would mean ALOT of money is going to be scared out of the genre. That could be good or bad depending, but the major releases in the future will be on a smaller scale coming from independant low budget (Relatively) developers.
And there will be much more wailing and gnashing of teeth,
"these graphics suck"
"this game is to buggy"
"they released way to soon"
Well..maybe not so different from how things are now, but only more so.
If TOR is everything that fans hope it’ll be, we may finally find out how many people are willing to pay for a subscription-based game. Between WoW’s mastery of the fantasy genre and TOR’s story-driven sci-fi romp in the most popular geek franchise on the planet, that’s a solid one-two punch to bring out everyone that’s ever considered paying a subscription fee. “There’s definitely a need for genre choices beyond fantasy,” explains Nexon America’s Director of Game Operations Minho Kim.
I cant wait to see how this will turn out. Wondering if SWTOR can have millions of players in addition to the millions of players that play WoW already.
Others mentioned GW2, but I think that GW2 mainly appeals to ppl that already play MMO's. While SWTOR might reach a large number of new players.
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's staright from the horses mouth.
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
Their main goal is 500k, anything else is a bonus or so it would seem. In light of that I'd assume the 350k figure is their worst case for survivability.
Considering their early reports from their analysts over 2 million subscribers would be likely, which would make the game an amazing success. 350K is their break even point... roughly.
When MMO games first came out, there was no big companies. The big three games were Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, made by small companies when they first came out, Eq eventually got bought by sony and ultima by Ea I believe, but another big company and that is when both games started to go a bit downhill. Not until SWG came out did we see a big company make a mmo and that was just a rehash of ultima and those others with the swg skin, until wow came out and everyone saw there was way more potential for this market, swg then changed and every other game after that has been nothing but wow with a different skin. But lets also not forget those good old days, were not always so good, it catered to the nolifers that didnt have jobs because more time invested in the game meant you could have better stuff and more levels than the normal player. Eq required so much time that a casual player would get turned away from the game because there was not much he could do. In asherons call there was plenty a casual could do but leveling took a long time after a while.
Snip
Just a quick correction; as someone who beta tested the game, I know that Sony has always been responsible for EQ. In fact the first city they created was Qeynos... or, if you reverse it, Sony EQ. So any "downhilling" of the game that occured after release wasn't because a "big" company took it over.
Just a quick correction; as someone who beta tested the game, I know that Sony has always been responsible for EQ. In fact the first city they created was Qeynos... or, if you reverse it, Sony EQ. So any "downhilling" of the game that occured after release wasn't because a "big" company took it over.
Awesome! I didn't know that.
Well, I knew that Sony was involved right from the start, but that it was even recognisable in the name Qeynos, I never once thought of reversing the name and see what it would lead to.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I again have to disagree. TOR will be a very different experience in a MMO setting. It may have been done in SPG's, but not in a MMO. No where else can you have 1600 hours of unique game play content for $50 plus $15 a month. You are talking hundreds of dollars for that amount of SPG game content. And at the same time, you will be in an open MMO world with thousands of other players. Killing them, teaming up for world grouping stories, Flashpoints, Warzones, Crafting, Raiding, world bosses, PvP conflict zones and socializing in an open SW universe MMO.
Obviously we do not know how the game will turn out. Only what we have been given to read, see, play and digest to make an educated guess. But adding a SPG level RPG into a MMO is something other Devs will be looking at and it will make a difference. It may just be the sub, F2P or content choice. But regardless of what kind of game TOR is, Devs and investers will follow TOR.
This. It took me a bit to wrap my head around this at first and I simply didn't get it. I built a preconceived idea of what SWTOR would be based on my past experience in other MMOs. On the surface the game really doesn't look that inovative. But one of the biggest features of this game is that there is SO much content that you simply can't consume it all in a month, or 3 or even 6.
1600 hours is 53 weeks for the 30 hour a week player. There is no need for user generated content if you still have developer generated content to consume! My guess is most people don't believe them (on the 1600 hours claim) and I can't blame them. It really is a see it to believe it type of claim. I trust bioware enough that they get my box sale, and if there really is this much content they will get plenty of sub months out of me.
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's staright from the horses mouth.
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
The definition of what A developr thinks is a success and what the industry in general thinks is a success is rather different. Then there is what the fans and players would concider a success as well. If I remember right, either EA or BioWare said that 500K sustained subscriptions would net them a decent profit "nothing to write home about" or some such, but still decent.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's staright from the horses mouth.
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
The definition of what A developr thinks is a success and what the industry in general thinks is a success is rather different. Then there is what the fans and players would concider a success as well. If I remember right, either EA or BioWare said that 500K sustained subscriptions would net them a decent profit "nothing to write home about" or some such, but still decent.
"At half a million subscribers the game is substantially profitable, but it's not the kind of thing we would write home about," he said, when asked about the long development time and expense that's gone into the game. "Anything north of a million subscribers--it's a very profitable business."
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's staright from the horses mouth.
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
The definition of what A developr thinks is a success and what the industry in general thinks is a success is rather different. Then there is what the fans and players would concider a success as well. If I remember right, either EA or BioWare said that 500K sustained subscriptions would net them a decent profit "nothing to write home about" or some such, but still decent.
The 500k for substantially profitable was given at a earnings call. Of course, they would like more. EA normally runs tight budgets. EA normally spends less than $30 million for the vast majority of their games.
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's staright from the horses mouth.
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
The definition of what A developr thinks is a success and what the industry in general thinks is a success is rather different. Then there is what the fans and players would concider a success as well. If I remember right, either EA or BioWare said that 500K sustained subscriptions would net them a decent profit "nothing to write home about" or some such, but still decent.
Of course there's that, there is a huge difference in how each body judges success. I was just pointing out their own bottomline which is 350k or so, as Masked pointed out they did also estimate they could achieve around 2 mil, that's their outlook anyway. So there are a few different measurements of success when it comes to TOR.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
The "WoW Clones" as you put have all been more successful then any indi dev game save for EvE and even they had a dip in numbers not to long ago.
As for Darkfall I personally like the premise but things like open world pvp in a game with full loot makes a really really really worse then wow community.
I think any game dev would have 1 million copies sold with 50k subs a few years out then 60k subs build up over 5 years.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
I'm not so sure that if SWTOR is a success that that really bodes that well for the MMO genre as a whole. If TOR is a success and stays a success then your looking at a budget of 100 million dollars minimum to make a "sucessful" MMO sub based game. I seriously doubt there are that many companies with that kind of cash to throw around. I guess it also depends on where TOR gets it's subs from. If it cannablises subs from other sub based games then to me it would signal that sub based games have reached a saturation point and the best you can really hope for if your developing a sub based game is to nick subs from other games and to do that your going to have to spend big. That or your going to have to depart from the tried and true and hope there is a big enough market out there for whatever your producing. Again your going to have to spend big and most investors are risk adverse most of there money goes to the safe bet with a rather small percentage going to risky enterprises. So my point of veiw is that evan if TOR is a success then doom and gloom could still follow there may be more investors willing to finance such a venture but I am thinking it will be more of the same since WOW except now we would have 2 800 pound gorillas in the same room and it's going to be extrememly tough and expensive to out WOWTOR WOW and TOR.
Then again when Blizzard actually spills the beans on what Titan actually is that could throw everything up in the air all over again.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
That wasn't directed at you.
As for those telling you to "go away", I can understand the sentiment, if you're doing what the guy I replied to was doing. There's no reason to bombard people with sandbox rants, especially in a forum for a game that has no desire to be a sandbox. What purpose does it serve?
Older MMO's were for the most part all started by what could be considered Indie teams, which were later bought out by big companies, to be brief, big companies had little hand in their creation only their acquisition. As with anything else, other large companies later followed what had the most commercial success. It's natural and should be expected.
Games like Darkfall, grow because they are catered to an audience seeking it (a niche), there's little competition for games such as it. As an example, EVE and Darkfall hardly compete for the same audience . Mass market games like Rift, LOTOR, WOW, EQ2, etc.... are all competing for the same piece of the MMO market pie, so I think your statement about indie's being more successful is a little off.
Indie's generally serve a niche, which leads to greater player devotion, as well as word of mouth advertising. This is what all old MMO's relied on, and why even today people long for a return to this ( that devotion lead to great communities). Yet at the same time, they in mass do not support what they deem unpolished products, it's really a catch 22 for this side of the MMO spectrum.
BTW, I understand full well that there is an over-saturation in connection to mainstream MMO attempts, I never said otherwise.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What will be the measure to say if this game fails or not?
If they can't keep 350k subs (for an undisclosed amount of time), they've failed. That's straight from the horses mouth.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just 350k subscribers? They shouldn't have a problem hitting that number and maintaining it.
Some whiny little pipsqueak in an x-wing fighter launches proton torpedos into a tiny exhaust vent on the top of the Bioware Auston headquarters building, setting off a chain reaction that completely destroys said headquarters building?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Their main goal is 500k, anything else is a bonus or so it would seem. In light of that I'd assume the 350k figure is their worst case for survivability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Obviously we do not know how the game will turn out. Only what we have been given to read, see, play and digest to make an educated guess. But adding a SPG level RPG into a MMO is something other Devs will be looking at and it will make a difference. It may just be the sub, F2P or content choice. But regardless of what kind of game TOR is, Devs and investers will follow TOR.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Exactly. There are plenty of choices for those that desire the so called good ole days and fans of that style of play should be playing those games, not going around to every new AAA themepark title and demanding that it be changed. How often do fans of themepark games pop onto a sandbox game forum and constantly talk about how their game will fail? You won't catch me in a Darkfall forum or Fallen Earth or EVE or EQ. Doing that would be childish and if my pointing that out gets some of their panties in a twist then too bad. If I have to put up with their constant forum littering then they shouldn't act surprised that a little negativity gets thrown right back at them.
And seriously, the fact that I can now level my character by playing a part in a story with choices and consequences is a major step up from the boring old days of slaughtering animals for hours for XP. I like the fact that I now no longer have to stand around a starport hitting LFG just to level XP in a Star Wars MMORPG. It's nice to know that Tatooine won't be littered with empty houses or that my gear won't go dead after only a few weeks of playing. It's nice that there will be many jedi and sith showing themselves in the game and it won't be immersion breaking since they actually belong in this time period. It's nice that I won't have to wait in lines for buffs and heals just to play the game.It's nice to actually be able to walk on Coruscant, Tyhon and the many other worlds that were not available to me before. I don't see how anyone could not see those things I listed as steps up from what we had before but to each his own.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
When MMO games first came out, there was no big companies. The big three games were Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, made by small companies when they first came out, Eq eventually got bought by sony and ultima by Ea I believe, but another big company and that is when both games started to go a bit downhill. Not until SWG came out did we see a big company make a mmo and that was just a rehash of ultima and those others with the swg skin, until wow came out and everyone saw there was way more potential for this market, swg then changed and every other game after that has been nothing but wow with a different skin. But lets also not forget those good old days, were not always so good, it catered to the nolifers that didnt have jobs because more time invested in the game meant you could have better stuff and more levels than the normal player. Eq required so much time that a casual player would get turned away from the game because there was not much he could do. In asherons call there was plenty a casual could do but leveling took a long time after a while.
The good old days were many times a pain in the butt, with your whole night spent making up for stuff you lost to some asshat in pvp. Sure the games were fun, the asshole players were not, and wow made a point to make a game where assholes really cant ruin your play time. sure they can annoy it some if on a pvp server but they cant just ruin your play time, and that is why wow is successful.
Indie companies are not going for innovation, hell I dont even know why people keep saying that, there is no such thing as innovation anymore in games. bioware is doing the one thing that has not been done in the mmo space before, great story and voicework, that is innovation for mmos but they get flak for it. Indie companies put out a half finished game with full pvp and sell you a broken game where hardly anything works. People can rail at the system all they want, but until a indie sandbox games earns even close to normal mmo money then you wont see big sandbox games. eve is the only one that comes close. If you were gonna invest millions of dollars into a project, would you invest in eve or world of warcraft. I know which one Im gonna invest in, is the one that is gonna make the most money for me later on and that is wow at this time.
Im not against either system really but the arrogance on both sides of this argument is astounding. themepark players dont own the mmo world and neither do the sandbox players. indie companies with sandbox titles though need to quit releasing halffinished products, I wanted to play three sandbox titles recently, mortal online, fallen earth, and earthrise. mortal and fallen earth i couldnt even get to download from the website and earthrise i gave up on from the reviews on this site, the reviews were so good compared to what players were saying about the game that i figured there was huge problems with the game. so if sandbox titles want my money they need to release a game that is playable, doesnt have to be perfect but it needs to be playable.
You don't play a lot of games are you?
Facts are the facts. There are plenty of sandbox games to play if that is your thing. EVE, SWG, DF, MO, FE and the up and coming AA. There are of course even more themepark mmo's to play if that is your thing. I can't for the life of me though understand why there is so much moaning and groaning from the two camps.
I do believe though it is very wrong if you are in one camp to constantly go to the other one, especially when a new game such as TOR is about to be released and try and tear the game down just because it is not being made in the mold you would like it to be and vise versa.
It's so funny how some people think that every new mmo should be made with their particular taste in gaming in mind and think that they hold the ultimate key to what makes a great and fun game.
This is the reason why we have coke, dr. pepper and pepsi. Why they have chevy , ford and toyota. Not everyone is gonna agree on how to get from point A to B but we must all agree that not one single way is so much better than the other.
ive played more than a few. Most sandbox titles that people say are innovating have nothing but full loot pvp. sorry that is not very innovative to me, it has been done many times before and been shot down by most gamers many times before. that is not what most gamers want and is certainly not what most consider innovative. name me one mmo game other than eve that has broken the mold and made something truly different. if there is one or two that will probably be it.
If anything, a big failure on ToR's part would mean ALOT of money is going to be scared out of the genre. That could be good or bad depending, but the major releases in the future will be on a smaller scale coming from independant low budget (Relatively) developers.
And there will be much more wailing and gnashing of teeth,
"these graphics suck"
"this game is to buggy"
"they released way to soon"
Well..maybe not so different from how things are now, but only more so.
I cant wait to see how this will turn out. Wondering if SWTOR can have millions of players in addition to the millions of players that play WoW already.
Others mentioned GW2, but I think that GW2 mainly appeals to ppl that already play MMO's. While SWTOR might reach a large number of new players.
Considering their early reports from their analysts over 2 million subscribers would be likely, which would make the game an amazing success. 350K is their break even point... roughly.
Just a quick correction; as someone who beta tested the game, I know that Sony has always been responsible for EQ. In fact the first city they created was Qeynos... or, if you reverse it, Sony EQ. So any "downhilling" of the game that occured after release wasn't because a "big" company took it over.
Awesome! I didn't know that.
Well, I knew that Sony was involved right from the start, but that it was even recognisable in the name Qeynos, I never once thought of reversing the name and see what it would lead to.
Funny and interesting trivia of the week to me
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This. It took me a bit to wrap my head around this at first and I simply didn't get it. I built a preconceived idea of what SWTOR would be based on my past experience in other MMOs. On the surface the game really doesn't look that inovative. But one of the biggest features of this game is that there is SO much content that you simply can't consume it all in a month, or 3 or even 6.
1600 hours is 53 weeks for the 30 hour a week player. There is no need for user generated content if you still have developer generated content to consume! My guess is most people don't believe them (on the 1600 hours claim) and I can't blame them. It really is a see it to believe it type of claim. I trust bioware enough that they get my box sale, and if there really is this much content they will get plenty of sub months out of me.
The definition of what A developr thinks is a success and what the industry in general thinks is a success is rather different. Then there is what the fans and players would concider a success as well. If I remember right, either EA or BioWare said that 500K sustained subscriptions would net them a decent profit "nothing to write home about" or some such, but still decent.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
pretty much exactly what was said
http://pc.ign.com/articles/114/1147536p1.html
"At half a million subscribers the game is substantially profitable, but it's not the kind of thing we would write home about," he said, when asked about the long development time and expense that's gone into the game. "Anything north of a million subscribers--it's a very profitable business."
The 500k for substantially profitable was given at a earnings call. Of course, they would like more. EA normally runs tight budgets. EA normally spends less than $30 million for the vast majority of their games.
Of course there's that, there is a huge difference in how each body judges success. I was just pointing out their own bottomline which is 350k or so, as Masked pointed out they did also estimate they could achieve around 2 mil, that's their outlook anyway. So there are a few different measurements of success when it comes to TOR.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson