I honestly believe Bioware could have devised some trans-phasic hyper-reality projection system that shot the entire game world straight into the brains of the players in full HD CGI complete with never before seen fully interactive intelligent AI and dynamic world economy, biology, and a star ship combat system that rivaled the Air Force simulators... and players still would have filled a thousand forums with endless rantings and complaints. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid.
real estate is a hoax gimmick, its a huge artificial economy that can cause the downfall of nations, just look at this second great depression we are currently in (but its not called that because the government run media has kept it under wraps just how bad it really is) cause by the collapse of the real estate house of cards.
I honestly believe Bioware could have devised some trans-phasic hyper-reality projection system that shot the entire game world straight into the brains of the players in full HD CGI complete with never before seen fully interactive intelligent AI and dynamic world economy, biology, and a star ship combat system that rivaled the Air Force simulators... and players still would have filled a thousand forums with endless rantings and complaints. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid.
only the players too poor to afford the million dollar sticker price on such a game per box, and the 100 grand a month sub it would require to play
By traditional I mean the EQ formula (IE) quest hubs, exploration, turn based combat, etc... I do agree they're adding to that formula, but I don't think that exactly separates them from it.
You know it's not even that i don't see a reason to complain, as I do in some respects. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that MMO game-play needs to change, or that features in them have become completely obsolete.
I started playing LOTRO a few days ago, and have played for quite a while each day. I never really gave that game a shot, so I decided why not now. From a game-play stand-point I haven't been bored yet. However, from a presentation stand-point I get very bored, I'm simply not feeling the story elements so far.
MMO's can have decent gameplay, for what it is. The game-play and pace allow communication even without ventrilo or TS. The worlds offer exploration and things of that sort. The design allows for many to experience things together etc..
Sure there is room or maybe even a need for games taking a more action oriented approach, that deosn't mean there is no room for a game like TOR though.
TOR in my eyes is a natural evolution of the typical Themepark. Bringing the design one step closer to a better whole. I look at GW2 and TSW much in the same way. As they are also presenting a proper narrative within their games. As well as what looks like fun game-play to boot.
Agreed. My fear is that all these new ideas will get mashed into a single game that everyone is copying in the future, because the real problem with MMOs right now is how similar they all are.
I hope at least that TOR (and the rest) is funny and entertaining in the long run.
And BTW, it is the Meridian 59 formula, it released 3 years before EQ and was basically the same game. I killed 10 rats already in early '96 .
And yes, it was a winning formula but the pronblem just is that 99% of all devs copy it, if I don't feel for that type of game my alternatives are Eve or some really coded indie game. I hope the MMO genre splitts up a bit so we get a larger selection of games.
I honestly believe Bioware could have devised some trans-phasic hyper-reality projection system that shot the entire game world straight into the brains of the players in full HD CGI complete with never before seen fully interactive intelligent AI and dynamic world economy, biology, and a star ship combat system that rivaled the Air Force simulators... and players still would have filled a thousand forums with endless rantings and complaints. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid.
only the players too poor to afford the million dollar sticker price on such a game per box, and the 100 grand a month sub it would require to play
I agree only those too poor to pay would complain about that :P .Frankly thought TOR has little going for it for my taste(to picky only really like a few types of game much)but I am still going to watch to see if I am wrong which I hope is the case because I like Star Wars just I like star wars because its an epic action flick in space while tor does not appear to be very actiony or epic. Its features and videos etc. all appear bland to me but its hard to know till you played a game or heard from beta players atleast. The quest/story system could be a hit or miss, I chuckle when people say its going to be revolutionary etc. because I played most of biowares single player games and find the stories rather boring overall some side stories can be fun etc. but the main story is rarely any good not bad but not good. Of course its all a matter of taste what to me may be boring may be great to someone else. I bet tor will be popular thought it reminds me of rift in the production and hype seems like it will carry it into a place where it will be successfull. I still have some hope that the space part will be fun atleast I didn't like the combat in swg jump to lightspeedl at all way to clunky(flying fighters was like driving a school bus and bombers was like stearing a school bus without power steering if you know what thats like lol) was like they slapped together a space sim in 6months to appease sony executives or something.
It is also true, imo, that a lot posters on this site see it as cool to never be excited about anything a big developer like BioWare or Blizzard put out there. If SWTOR was made by indie developer HappySlappy, they would be all over it.
Agreed. My fear is that all these new ideas will get mashed into a single game that everyone is copying in the future, because the real problem with MMOs right now is how similar they all are.
I hope at least that TOR (and the rest) is funny and entertaining in the long run.
And BTW, it is the Meridian 59 formula, it released 3 years before EQ and was basically the same game. I killed 10 rats already in early '96 .
And yes, it was a winning formula but the pronblem just is that 99% of all devs copy it, if I don't feel for that type of game my alternatives are Eve or some really coded indie game. I hope the MMO genre splitts up a bit so we get a larger selection of games.
The MMO genre is split up You just dont realize that games like Call of Duty and Minecraft are MMOs.
Frankly if you dont want to play go klll 10 rats and get rewards, with new graphics cooler armer and better looking skills then that sir is your choice. Speaking as an EQ veteran and avid mmo player, its people who want to change everything about these games that will ultimately ruin MMORPGs for all of us.
The formula works its fun it has mass appeal get use to it or go play your bad indie BS game with the 300 other people who think like you
Couldn't agree with what's in yellow more. As it explains my stance on the matter perfectly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Agreed. My fear is that all these new ideas will get mashed into a single game that everyone is copying in the future, because the real problem with MMOs right now is how similar they all are.
I hope at least that TOR (and the rest) is funny and entertaining in the long run.
And BTW, it is the Meridian 59 formula, it released 3 years before EQ and was basically the same game. I killed 10 rats already in early '96 .
And yes, it was a winning formula but the pronblem just is that 99% of all devs copy it, if I don't feel for that type of game my alternatives are Eve or some really coded indie game. I hope the MMO genre splitts up a bit so we get a larger selection of games.
The MMO genre is split up You just dont realize that games like Call of Duty and Minecraft are MMOs.
Frankly if you dont want to play go klll 10 rats and get rewards, with new graphics cooler armer and better looking skills then that sir is your choice. Speaking as an EQ veteran and avid mmo player, its people who want to change everything about these games that will ultimately ruin MMORPGs for all of us.
The formula works its fun it has mass appeal get use to it or go play your bad indie BS game with the 300 other people who think like you
Couldn't agree with what's in yellow more. As it explains my stance on the matter perfectly.
I have to agree with this as well. You have to look at it like MMORPG is a genre just like FPS and RPG is a genre on consoles and PC games. FPS have a pretty similar formula to them, just like RPGS. MMORPGs are going to have a similar formula to them because that's their genre. It sounds like a lot of people who want change to new up and coming MMORPGs are pretty much wanting a whole new game genre. Which isn't a bad thing. But I just have to say, if you aren't happy with how MMORPGs are played, then maybe they aren't for you, and you need to try a different genre. Me on the other hand, when I get bored with an MMORPG I just take a break from it and come back later when I want to play that genre again.
I believe it started with people doubting it would be like an MMO period.
Now it seems like people have a problem with it just being a traditional one.
In the end this is basically what I am saying, you find no irony in that? It just shows the problem with working in this genre, it's a front that is just too hard to please.
Look at feedback from AOC, and look at feed back all around the industry. You can't stray away from the norm but you also can't copy it, you can't add new things to it, and you can't streamline it, you can't pay homage to it. You simply can't do anything with it. You might as well not even make it. Unless you remake it, but then what happens, where'd the MMORPG GOOO!?!?!!!?
Uhg sorry I'm just venting.
I liked AoC, their biggest issue was and still is a very limited selection of passtimes at level cap.
Beyond that I love the game, the shield system in combat has never really worked fluidly but I really enjoy the combat combos system.
So far in SWTOR 90% of what I see makes me dissapointed. Dissapointed in the use of the IP and dissapointedi n Bioware. This is the company that re-invented & rejuvenated the D&D CRPG franchise first with Baldurs Gate then with NWN and who later blew us away with KOTOR (though the consoley UI sucked).
Given Bioware's track record I was just expecting more, spaceflight as a shooter on rails was probably the most disheartening single piece of news they gave us, I was really just expecting more & expecting some innovation and re-invention of their first MMO offering as we have seen in other Bioware titles. I will probably still buy the game because I am a mad Star Wars fan and a big Bioware fan and I know they will at least craft something worthy of time spent on the "storyline" (AKA single player experience). But beyond that I doubt I will be a longtime subscriber, infact I would guess SWTOR is unlikely to keep me hooked for more than a quarter of the time AoC did.
I have to agree with this as well. You have to look at it like MMORPG is a genre just like FPS and RPG is a genre on consoles and PC games. FPS have a pretty similar formula to them, just like RPGS. MMORPGs are going to have a similar formula to them because that's their genre. It sounds like a lot of people who want change to new up and coming MMORPGs are pretty much wanting a whole new game genre. Which isn't a bad thing. But I just have to say, if you aren't happy with how MMORPGs are played, then maybe they aren't for you, and you need to try a different genre. Me on the other hand, when I get bored with an MMORPG I just take a break from it and come back later when I want to play that genre again.
Yep I've wrote this many times myself, ironically it's usually ignored and passed over. Change the fundamentals and you've changed Genres. If you no longer offer what people expect in an MMORPG, how is it an MMORPG? Now adding a new form of combat won't do that alone, but for the average MMO player it's going to feel unfamiliar.
As I said in a post earlier there's room for other games, I'll even expand that to other genres. People can want and/or demand that all they want. However they shouldn't attempt to destroy another genre or sub-genre in progress of that.
What worries me most about complaints like this in regard to TOR, is Lucasarts and EA. I don't feel the former were directly responsible for SWG's demise. However I will never rule them out entirely, as they advertised those changes as the second coming just as well as SOE did. I hope no pressure is put on Bioware to attempt such a mid-game-changing fiasco, if things are not operating at desired levels of profitability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I honestly believe Bioware could have devised some trans-phasic hyper-reality projection system that shot the entire game world straight into the brains of the players in full HD CGI complete with never before seen fully interactive intelligent AI and dynamic world economy, biology, and a star ship combat system that rivaled the Air Force simulators... and players still would have filled a thousand forums with endless rantings and complaints. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid.
only the players too poor to afford the million dollar sticker price on such a game per box, and the 100 grand a month sub it would require to play
And we see here that Warzod was right in the very first person to reply to his post.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Agreed. My fear is that all these new ideas will get mashed into a single game that everyone is copying in the future, because the real problem with MMOs right now is how similar they all are.
I hope at least that TOR (and the rest) is funny and entertaining in the long run.
And BTW, it is the Meridian 59 formula, it released 3 years before EQ and was basically the same game. I killed 10 rats already in early '96 .
And yes, it was a winning formula but the pronblem just is that 99% of all devs copy it, if I don't feel for that type of game my alternatives are Eve or some really coded indie game. I hope the MMO genre splitts up a bit so we get a larger selection of games.
The MMO genre is split up You just dont realize that games like Call of Duty and Minecraft are MMOs.
Frankly if you dont want to play go klll 10 rats and get rewards, with new graphics cooler armer and better looking skills then that sir is your choice. Speaking as an EQ veteran and avid mmo player, its people who want to change everything about these games that will ultimately ruin MMORPGs for all of us.
The formula works its fun it has mass appeal get use to it or go play your bad indie BS game with the 300 other people who think like you
Couldn't agree with what's in yellow more. As it explains my stance on the matter perfectly.
Yes, crescens87, was a little over the top (possibly) but he had some good points IF your willing to look past your own hurt feels for not agreeing with him.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
In the end this is basically what I am saying, you find no irony in that? It just shows the problem with working in this genre, it's a front that is just too hard to please.
Look at feedback from AOC, and look at feed back all around the industry. You can't stray away from the norm but you also can't copy it, you can't add new things to it, and you can't streamline it, you can't pay homage to it. You simply can't do anything with it. You might as well not even make it. Unless you remake it, but then what happens, where'd the MMORPG GOOO!?!?!!!?
Uhg sorry I'm just venting.
I liked AoC, their biggest issue was and still is a very limited selection of passtimes at level cap.
Beyond that I love the game, the shield system in combat has never really worked fluidly but I really enjoy the combat combos system.
So far in SWTOR 90% of what I see makes me dissapointed. Dissapointed in the use of the IP and dissapointedi n Bioware. This is the company that re-invented & rejuvenated the D&D CRPG franchise first with Baldurs Gate then with NWN and who later blew us away with KOTOR (though the consoley UI sucked).
Given Bioware's track record I was just expecting more, spaceflight as a shooter on rails was probably the most disheartening single piece of news they gave us, I was really just expecting more & expecting some innovation and re-invention of their first MMO offering as we have seen in other Bioware titles. I will probably still buy the game because I am a mad Star Wars fan and a big Bioware fan and I know they will at least craft something worthy of time spent on the "storyline" (AKA single player experience). But beyond that I doubt I will be a longtime subscriber, infact I would guess SWTOR is unlikely to keep me hooked for more than a quarter of the time AoC did.
Say what you like but I am dissapointed.
Being disappointed is fine and understandable, I will never criticize based on disappointment alone. There's no reason to, we all like different things.
My commentary is really based on what seems to be a can't win scenario in this industry right now. I'm definitely not degrading those who dislike TOR. I'm also not saying there's no reason to dislike TOR, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons based on taste alone.
What I meant when referencing AOC feedback was, look at feedback from AOC and apply it to TOR. It addresses a lot of those complaints. Large worlds and little use of instancing, focus on keeping areas filled with players, fully voiced NPCS from start to finish, be communicative, ask for feedback, polish before release. I mean all in all this is taking what AOC was (aside from combat) and improving on it, well based on what MMO players want err wanted.
This is another thing I should point out, people also have to consider how long an MMO is in development. What were hot topics when TOR was in major conceptual development? Once the concept is finalized there's little room for turning back. Well if you ever want to release that is. TOR addresses a lot of issues Themepark games had at that time.
Three years ago was the hot topic MMO combat and how stale it is? Four years ago was the hot topic, we all want what GW2 is going to have? WHat about 5 years ago? Hot topics change that's why they're referred to as hot, industry buzz also changes. If we're ever going to like anything as a community we need to slow down. This isn't the console market, our games take far longer to create, yet we have not slowed down our demand for innovation.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Being disappointed is fine and understandable, I will never criticize based on disappointment alone. There's no reason to, we all like different things.
My commentary is really based on what seems to be a can't win scenario in this industry right now. I'm definitely not degrading those who dislike TOR. I'm also not saying there's no reason to dislike TOR, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons based on taste alone.
What I meant when referencing AOC feedback was, look at feedback from AOC and apply it to TOR. It addresses a lot of those complaints. Large worlds and little use of instancing, focus on keeping areas filled with players, fully voiced NPCS from start to finish, be communicative, ask for feedback, polish before release. I mean all in all this is taking what AOC was (aside from combat) and improving on it, well based on what MMO players want err wanted.
This is another thing I should point out, people also have to consider how long an MMO is in development. What were hot topics when TOR was in major conceptual development? Once the concept is finalized there's little room for turning back. Well if you ever want to release that is. TOR addresses a lot of issues Themepark games had at that time.
Three years ago was the hot topic MMO combat and how stale it is? Four years ago was the hot topic, we all want what GW2 is going to have? WHat about 5 years ago? Hot topics change that's why they're referred to as hot, industry buzz also changes. If we're ever going to like anything as a community we need to slow down. This isn't the console market, our games take far longer to create, yet we have not slowed down our demand for innovation.
Agreed. My fear is that all these new ideas will get mashed into a single game that everyone is copying in the future, because the real problem with MMOs right now is how similar they all are.
I hope at least that TOR (and the rest) is funny and entertaining in the long run.
And BTW, it is the Meridian 59 formula, it released 3 years before EQ and was basically the same game. I killed 10 rats already in early '96 .
And yes, it was a winning formula but the pronblem just is that 99% of all devs copy it, if I don't feel for that type of game my alternatives are Eve or some really coded indie game. I hope the MMO genre splitts up a bit so we get a larger selection of games.
The MMO genre is split up You just dont realize that games like Call of Duty and Minecraft are MMOs.
Frankly if you dont want to play go klll 10 rats and get rewards, with new graphics cooler armer and better looking skills then that sir is your choice. Speaking as an EQ veteran and avid mmo player, its people who want to change everything about these games that will ultimately ruin MMORPGs for all of us.
The formula works its fun it has mass appeal get use to it or go play your bad indie BS game with the 300 other people who think like you
I agree, where were you when i posted months back about the diffent varities of single player games by genre and sub-gernres.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
Really? Because they largely copy WoW in a number of ways, especially in terms of combat mechanics, gear, and play options. The Devs are on the record as saying making a game that doesn't largely copy how WoW does things is stupid.
Assuming the two types of concerns the OP posted on were made by the same people, then it is perfectly reasonable to have worried about whether TOR would be an MMO and then later, upon finding out what sort of MMO it would be, not like the direction the game took.
I love this community, I really do. But the darkest side here I think, if you read every forum post is that everybody hates everything and there is no hope for any games in the future. Sometimes I think about what somebody coming to this site for the first time would think after reading some of the posts. All in all that doesn't matter. People here are going to pick holes in this game no matter what it does. People where writing it off after the first trailer and insulting anybody who was intrested in it. Some of my fave posters until very recently thought it was vapourware. The fact is some of us are just here to complaine becouse of personal reasons I am not even going to begin to try and understand. Some people are teanagers and don't know anything. Some people have been hurt by the poor quality of games released in the last few years that they where looking forward to. My point is the nitpicking is going to happen in every major release, and sometimes for very good reason. It tends to be the negative stuff we dwell on in my experaince. But if you actualy look at the consitency of the threads on Tor on mmorpg.com over the last year or so, a lot of people are really looking forward to it and some cases despite themselves. I think it's a good sign to be baffled by this communitys reaction to things. I think that's how you should be
WHAT!? I didn't stop thinking it was vaporware. I never THOUGHT it was vaporware. I KNOW the game is vaporware. Just like all these people who have been saying they know SWTOR will suck from the day it was announced, even though they had not one single shred of evidence to back up their claims. The game is never coming out. It will never see the light of day. The game doesn't exist. Its just so much shuck and jive by Bioware to embezzle enough investor money to buy a permanent vaction in a nice, tropical, nonextradition country. What about the game we just saw at E3 I hear you ask? . . . Well its all done with mirrors innit.
As a confirmed conspiracy theorist I know in my heart of hearts what is true and what is not. None of your or Bioware's jedi mind tricks will bamboozle me into beleving this game exists. Even if Bioware decides to pull the dirtiest trick possible and actually release this game. You can't disprove a determined conspiracy theory that something dose not exist, just by merely pointing out the subject in question actually does exist. Sheesh! Spookydom, I'm not sure where you learned logical thinking, but it most certainly wasn't on the internet!.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
There are a lot of reasons to be upset about this game, for starters they wanted 16 classes each with their own story. Instead they have 8 with 2 AC's each. More over the E3 footage shows that some, if not all world, non personal story quests, use the same script for the different classes for each choice. Watch the bounty hunter solo tattooine video then the co-op bh sw one. The sith warrior uses the same lines as the BH does. Combined with ugly speeders, a lack of diversity in player species, they picked one set of body types for male and female then picked the races that fit them, lack of ship choice. Suddenly making lightsaber colors alignment specific ignoring all lore and cannon on it, adding in the basic fetch and kill quests they said they weren't putting in the game because it wasn't epic. Then topping it off with poor writing, to make a cake of bad choices on biowares part.
When I first heard that ToR wasn't having an open beta due to the numbers signed up I was like, that sounds reasonable. Then I thought, wait, Rift had an open beta with nearly as many signed up for it and they are a smaller company. Why is BioWare limiting it to only closed Beta all the way to launch. My guess to this is that they don't have to drop the NDA all the way to launch. They can control the flow of information, allow only certain people access to the game, and keep those people from talking about it. More over if they don't do this how are they stress testing it? Becuase getting all the testers on tattooine to jump up and down isn't a stress test, no matter how much they want it to be.
In the end, you look at BioWare and ToR and you see the video's and everything are tailored to calm peoples who are worried. It's like saying look, it's a normal mmo, look this is what we have in it. They show off armor progression and classes just enough to tease people into wanting to play. But when it comes to showing off any real gameplay they just don't do it. Worse still the faith in BioWare is at an all time low after DA2, and they are really having to deal with players going should I trust this game to be what it seems to be? Personally without a head start, or an open Beta I may wait a few days to get my reserve from gamestop, because I'm not just going to trust that this game is what I want it to be.
I've spent a lot of my time on here, defending ToR and BioWare, but post E3 I just can't say I trust them enough to wear their colors sight unseen. I'm not a loyalist, I am a mercenary, I do what I want for the things I want to. Those people that say BioWare owes us, the consumer, no reasurances that their game is worth our money are wrong. They owe us that, and we are right to complain that they haven't made what we wanted, because in the end we have to pay them for the right to use their game. If I pay country club dues and my golf course has ruts in it and the bathroom needs cleaning I'm going to complain. It's my money, it's my right to do so, and if I don't the only person I have to be mad at is me.
I love this community, I really do. But the darkest side here I think, if you read every forum post is that everybody hates everything and there is no hope for any games in the future. Sometimes I think about what somebody coming to this site for the first time would think after reading some of the posts. All in all that doesn't matter. People here are going to pick holes in this game no matter what it does. People where writing it off after the first trailer and insulting anybody who was intrested in it. Some of my fave posters until very recently thought it was vapourware. The fact is some of us are just here to complaine becouse of personal reasons I am not even going to begin to try and understand. Some people are teanagers and don't know anything. Some people have been hurt by the poor quality of games released in the last few years that they where looking forward to. My point is the nitpicking is going to happen in every major release, and sometimes for very good reason. It tends to be the negative stuff we dwell on in my experaince. But if you actualy look at the consitency of the threads on Tor on mmorpg.com over the last year or so, a lot of people are really looking forward to it and some cases despite themselves. I think it's a good sign to be baffled by this communitys reaction to things. I think that's how you should be
WHAT!? I didn't stop thinking it was vaporware. I never THOUGHT it was vaporware. I KNOW the game is vaporware. Just like all these people who have been saying they know SWTOR will suck from the day it was announced, even though they had not one single shred of evidence to back up their claims. The game is never coming out. It will never see the light of day. The game doesn't exist. Its just so much shuck and jive by Bioware to embezzle enough investor money to buy a permanent vaction in a nice, tropical, nonextradition country. What about the game we just saw at E3 I hear you ask? . . . Well its all done with mirrors innit.
As a confirmed conspiracy theorist I know in my heart of hearts what is true and what is not. None of your or Bioware's jedi mind tricks will bamboozle me into beleving this game exists. Even if Bioware decides to pull the dirtiest trick possible and actually release this game. You can't disprove a determined conspiracy theory that something dose not exist, just by merely pointing out the subject in question actually does exist. Sheesh! Spookydom, I'm not sure where you learned logical thinking, but it most certainly wasn't on the internet!.
No, young padawan, it is not vaporware it was built on vaporware. This through the force you feel. Confused it makes you, yes. Heroes Journy was vaporware, it was used to make the heroengine, then they sold the engine to four mmo makers.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
Really? Because they largely copy WoW in a number of ways, especially in terms of combat mechanics, gear, and play options. The Devs are on the record as saying making a game that doesn't largely copy how WoW does things is stupid.
Assuming the two types of concerns the OP posted on were made by the same people, then it is perfectly reasonable to have worried about whether TOR would be an MMO and then later, upon finding out what sort of MMO it would be, not like the direction the game took.
Yeah I basically got what you were saying, not that I agree with it entirely. I still understood the point.
Sure if you're not looking at if from a position of satire, it is understandable to some extent. That doesn't exactly take away the humor in what loops devs have to jump through, when deciphering what it is players in large part actually want though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
Really? Because they largely copy WoW in a number of ways, especially in terms of combat mechanics, gear, and play options. The Devs are on the record as saying making a game that doesn't largely copy how WoW does things is stupid.
Assuming the two types of concerns the OP posted on were made by the same people, then it is perfectly reasonable to have worried about whether TOR would be an MMO and then later, upon finding out what sort of MMO it would be, not like the direction the game took.
You miss read me. I was saying that your first statment in and of itself had no structual support to give it weight and depth not that it was invalid. Merly was pointing out that statments like that are view more offten than not at an attack then a stance on once side or the other. Its support like "TOR devs have stated that their games draws a lot of its mechanics from other MMO's namely WoW." then showing the evidence (for those who may not have read or heard this statment by the devs. Afterword you discuss how that statment validates your opinion. Just trying to help you make sure your point is clear and not seen as an attack thats all my friend.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
See ... what I remember from "back when" of the speculation... is either it would be a single player game with "mmo" aspects or *drum roll* WoW in space.
I never saw anyone complaining that ToR was going to be a traditional MMO.
Just like I'd be willing to bet that the day ToR goes live and people flood in... general chat will be filled with comments about World of Warcraft.. Which is exactly why I'll be anti social like usual and either leave general chat or ignore a lot of people.
That will be my complaint about ToR... the vast majority of "chat" won't even be about the game we're playing (once we can!!) This is in fact my main complaint about most MMO's of late...
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
Really? Because they largely copy WoW in a number of ways, especially in terms of combat mechanics, gear, and play options. The Devs are on the record as saying making a game that doesn't largely copy how WoW does things is stupid.
Assuming the two types of concerns the OP posted on were made by the same people, then it is perfectly reasonable to have worried about whether TOR would be an MMO and then later, upon finding out what sort of MMO it would be, not like the direction the game took.
You miss read me. I was saying that your first statment in and of itself had no structual support to give it weight and depth not that it was invalid. Merly was pointing out that statments like that are view more offten than not at an attack then a stance on once side or the other. Its support like "TOR devs have stated that their games draws a lot of its mechanics from other MMO's namely WoW." then showing the evidence (for those who may not have read or heard this statment by the devs. Afterword you discuss how that statment validates your opinion. Just trying to help you make sure your point is clear and not seen as an attack thats all my friend.
Yeah, how silly of me to think that people on the forum for a game actually followed said game. Crazy to think they'd actually pay any attention to the devs or game demos, right?
Sorry, I don't buy into the idea that I need to craft every post assuming the people reading it don't know anything about the topic.
Comments
I honestly believe Bioware could have devised some trans-phasic hyper-reality projection system that shot the entire game world straight into the brains of the players in full HD CGI complete with never before seen fully interactive intelligent AI and dynamic world economy, biology, and a star ship combat system that rivaled the Air Force simulators... and players still would have filled a thousand forums with endless rantings and complaints. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid.
real estate is a hoax gimmick, its a huge artificial economy that can cause the downfall of nations, just look at this second great depression we are currently in (but its not called that because the government run media has kept it under wraps just how bad it really is) cause by the collapse of the real estate house of cards.
only the players too poor to afford the million dollar sticker price on such a game per box, and the 100 grand a month sub it would require to play
Agreed. My fear is that all these new ideas will get mashed into a single game that everyone is copying in the future, because the real problem with MMOs right now is how similar they all are.
I hope at least that TOR (and the rest) is funny and entertaining in the long run.
And BTW, it is the Meridian 59 formula, it released 3 years before EQ and was basically the same game. I killed 10 rats already in early '96
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And yes, it was a winning formula but the pronblem just is that 99% of all devs copy it, if I don't feel for that type of game my alternatives are Eve or some really coded indie game. I hope the MMO genre splitts up a bit so we get a larger selection of games.
I agree only those too poor to pay would complain about that :P .Frankly thought TOR has little going for it for my taste(to picky only really like a few types of game much)but I am still going to watch to see if I am wrong which I hope is the case because I like Star Wars just I like star wars because its an epic action flick in space while tor does not appear to be very actiony or epic. Its features and videos etc. all appear bland to me but its hard to know till you played a game or heard from beta players atleast. The quest/story system could be a hit or miss, I chuckle when people say its going to be revolutionary etc. because I played most of biowares single player games and find the stories rather boring overall some side stories can be fun etc. but the main story is rarely any good not bad but not good. Of course its all a matter of taste what to me may be boring may be great to someone else. I bet tor will be popular thought it reminds me of rift in the production and hype seems like it will carry it into a place where it will be successfull. I still have some hope that the space part will be fun atleast I didn't like the combat in swg jump to lightspeedl at all way to clunky(flying fighters was like driving a school bus and bombers was like stearing a school bus without power steering if you know what thats like lol) was like they slapped together a space sim in 6months to appease sony executives or something.
To reiterate my point. ^^ This
Couldn't agree with what's in yellow more. As it explains my stance on the matter perfectly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have to agree with this as well. You have to look at it like MMORPG is a genre just like FPS and RPG is a genre on consoles and PC games. FPS have a pretty similar formula to them, just like RPGS. MMORPGs are going to have a similar formula to them because that's their genre. It sounds like a lot of people who want change to new up and coming MMORPGs are pretty much wanting a whole new game genre. Which isn't a bad thing. But I just have to say, if you aren't happy with how MMORPGs are played, then maybe they aren't for you, and you need to try a different genre. Me on the other hand, when I get bored with an MMORPG I just take a break from it and come back later when I want to play that genre again.
I liked AoC, their biggest issue was and still is a very limited selection of passtimes at level cap.
Beyond that I love the game, the shield system in combat has never really worked fluidly but I really enjoy the combat combos system.
So far in SWTOR 90% of what I see makes me dissapointed. Dissapointed in the use of the IP and dissapointedi n Bioware. This is the company that re-invented & rejuvenated the D&D CRPG franchise first with Baldurs Gate then with NWN and who later blew us away with KOTOR (though the consoley UI sucked).
Given Bioware's track record I was just expecting more, spaceflight as a shooter on rails was probably the most disheartening single piece of news they gave us, I was really just expecting more & expecting some innovation and re-invention of their first MMO offering as we have seen in other Bioware titles. I will probably still buy the game because I am a mad Star Wars fan and a big Bioware fan and I know they will at least craft something worthy of time spent on the "storyline" (AKA single player experience). But beyond that I doubt I will be a longtime subscriber, infact I would guess SWTOR is unlikely to keep me hooked for more than a quarter of the time AoC did.
Say what you like but I am dissapointed.
Yep I've wrote this many times myself, ironically it's usually ignored and passed over. Change the fundamentals and you've changed Genres. If you no longer offer what people expect in an MMORPG, how is it an MMORPG? Now adding a new form of combat won't do that alone, but for the average MMO player it's going to feel unfamiliar.
As I said in a post earlier there's room for other games, I'll even expand that to other genres. People can want and/or demand that all they want. However they shouldn't attempt to destroy another genre or sub-genre in progress of that.
What worries me most about complaints like this in regard to TOR, is Lucasarts and EA. I don't feel the former were directly responsible for SWG's demise. However I will never rule them out entirely, as they advertised those changes as the second coming just as well as SOE did. I hope no pressure is put on Bioware to attempt such a mid-game-changing fiasco, if things are not operating at desired levels of profitability.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And we see here that Warzod was right in the very first person to reply to his post.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Yes, crescens87, was a little over the top (possibly) but he had some good points IF your willing to look past your own hurt feels for not agreeing with him.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Being disappointed is fine and understandable, I will never criticize based on disappointment alone. There's no reason to, we all like different things.
My commentary is really based on what seems to be a can't win scenario in this industry right now. I'm definitely not degrading those who dislike TOR. I'm also not saying there's no reason to dislike TOR, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons based on taste alone.
What I meant when referencing AOC feedback was, look at feedback from AOC and apply it to TOR. It addresses a lot of those complaints. Large worlds and little use of instancing, focus on keeping areas filled with players, fully voiced NPCS from start to finish, be communicative, ask for feedback, polish before release. I mean all in all this is taking what AOC was (aside from combat) and improving on it, well based on what MMO players want err wanted.
This is another thing I should point out, people also have to consider how long an MMO is in development. What were hot topics when TOR was in major conceptual development? Once the concept is finalized there's little room for turning back. Well if you ever want to release that is. TOR addresses a lot of issues Themepark games had at that time.
Three years ago was the hot topic MMO combat and how stale it is? Four years ago was the hot topic, we all want what GW2 is going to have? WHat about 5 years ago? Hot topics change that's why they're referred to as hot, industry buzz also changes. If we're ever going to like anything as a community we need to slow down. This isn't the console market, our games take far longer to create, yet we have not slowed down our demand for innovation.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Very good post Malickie and right on the money.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I agree, where were you when i posted months back about the diffent varities of single player games by genre and sub-gernres.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Really? Because they largely copy WoW in a number of ways, especially in terms of combat mechanics, gear, and play options. The Devs are on the record as saying making a game that doesn't largely copy how WoW does things is stupid.
Assuming the two types of concerns the OP posted on were made by the same people, then it is perfectly reasonable to have worried about whether TOR would be an MMO and then later, upon finding out what sort of MMO it would be, not like the direction the game took.
WHAT!? I didn't stop thinking it was vaporware. I never THOUGHT it was vaporware. I KNOW the game is vaporware. Just like all these people who have been saying they know SWTOR will suck from the day it was announced, even though they had not one single shred of evidence to back up their claims. The game is never coming out. It will never see the light of day. The game doesn't exist. Its just so much shuck and jive by Bioware to embezzle enough investor money to buy a permanent vaction in a nice, tropical, nonextradition country. What about the game we just saw at E3 I hear you ask? . . . Well its all done with mirrors innit.
As a confirmed conspiracy theorist I know in my heart of hearts what is true and what is not. None of your or Bioware's jedi mind tricks will bamboozle me into beleving this game exists. Even if Bioware decides to pull the dirtiest trick possible and actually release this game. You can't disprove a determined conspiracy theory that something dose not exist, just by merely pointing out the subject in question actually does exist. Sheesh! Spookydom, I'm not sure where you learned logical thinking, but it most certainly wasn't on the internet!.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
There are a lot of reasons to be upset about this game, for starters they wanted 16 classes each with their own story. Instead they have 8 with 2 AC's each. More over the E3 footage shows that some, if not all world, non personal story quests, use the same script for the different classes for each choice. Watch the bounty hunter solo tattooine video then the co-op bh sw one. The sith warrior uses the same lines as the BH does. Combined with ugly speeders, a lack of diversity in player species, they picked one set of body types for male and female then picked the races that fit them, lack of ship choice. Suddenly making lightsaber colors alignment specific ignoring all lore and cannon on it, adding in the basic fetch and kill quests they said they weren't putting in the game because it wasn't epic. Then topping it off with poor writing, to make a cake of bad choices on biowares part.
When I first heard that ToR wasn't having an open beta due to the numbers signed up I was like, that sounds reasonable. Then I thought, wait, Rift had an open beta with nearly as many signed up for it and they are a smaller company. Why is BioWare limiting it to only closed Beta all the way to launch. My guess to this is that they don't have to drop the NDA all the way to launch. They can control the flow of information, allow only certain people access to the game, and keep those people from talking about it. More over if they don't do this how are they stress testing it? Becuase getting all the testers on tattooine to jump up and down isn't a stress test, no matter how much they want it to be.
In the end, you look at BioWare and ToR and you see the video's and everything are tailored to calm peoples who are worried. It's like saying look, it's a normal mmo, look this is what we have in it. They show off armor progression and classes just enough to tease people into wanting to play. But when it comes to showing off any real gameplay they just don't do it. Worse still the faith in BioWare is at an all time low after DA2, and they are really having to deal with players going should I trust this game to be what it seems to be? Personally without a head start, or an open Beta I may wait a few days to get my reserve from gamestop, because I'm not just going to trust that this game is what I want it to be.
I've spent a lot of my time on here, defending ToR and BioWare, but post E3 I just can't say I trust them enough to wear their colors sight unseen. I'm not a loyalist, I am a mercenary, I do what I want for the things I want to. Those people that say BioWare owes us, the consumer, no reasurances that their game is worth our money are wrong. They owe us that, and we are right to complain that they haven't made what we wanted, because in the end we have to pay them for the right to use their game. If I pay country club dues and my golf course has ruts in it and the bathroom needs cleaning I'm going to complain. It's my money, it's my right to do so, and if I don't the only person I have to be mad at is me.
No, young padawan, it is not vaporware it was built on vaporware. This through the force you feel. Confused it makes you, yes. Heroes Journy was vaporware, it was used to make the heroengine, then they sold the engine to four mmo makers.
Yeah I basically got what you were saying, not that I agree with it entirely. I still understood the point.
Sure if you're not looking at if from a position of satire, it is understandable to some extent. That doesn't exactly take away the humor in what loops devs have to jump through, when deciphering what it is players in large part actually want though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You miss read me. I was saying that your first statment in and of itself had no structual support to give it weight and depth not that it was invalid. Merly was pointing out that statments like that are view more offten than not at an attack then a stance on once side or the other. Its support like "TOR devs have stated that their games draws a lot of its mechanics from other MMO's namely WoW." then showing the evidence (for those who may not have read or heard this statment by the devs. Afterword you discuss how that statment validates your opinion. Just trying to help you make sure your point is clear and not seen as an attack thats all my friend.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
See ... what I remember from "back when" of the speculation... is either it would be a single player game with "mmo" aspects or *drum roll* WoW in space.
I never saw anyone complaining that ToR was going to be a traditional MMO.
Just like I'd be willing to bet that the day ToR goes live and people flood in... general chat will be filled with comments about World of Warcraft.. Which is exactly why I'll be anti social like usual and either leave general chat or ignore a lot of people.
That will be my complaint about ToR... the vast majority of "chat" won't even be about the game we're playing (once we can!!) This is in fact my main complaint about most MMO's of late...
Yeah, how silly of me to think that people on the forum for a game actually followed said game. Crazy to think they'd actually pay any attention to the devs or game demos, right?
Sorry, I don't buy into the idea that I need to craft every post assuming the people reading it don't know anything about the topic.