Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
I respect everyones oppion here, but statments like this that lack any type of support, are frakly usless. Sorry to point you out on that i mean no offence. I just feel if you have an oppion make it count.
Really? Because they largely copy WoW in a number of ways, especially in terms of combat mechanics, gear, and play options. The Devs are on the record as saying making a game that doesn't largely copy how WoW does things is stupid.
Assuming the two types of concerns the OP posted on were made by the same people, then it is perfectly reasonable to have worried about whether TOR would be an MMO and then later, upon finding out what sort of MMO it would be, not like the direction the game took.
You miss read me. I was saying that your first statment in and of itself had no structual support to give it weight and depth not that it was invalid. Merly was pointing out that statments like that are view more offten than not at an attack then a stance on once side or the other. Its support like "TOR devs have stated that their games draws a lot of its mechanics from other MMO's namely WoW." then showing the evidence (for those who may not have read or heard this statment by the devs. Afterword you discuss how that statment validates your opinion. Just trying to help you make sure your point is clear and not seen as an attack thats all my friend.
Yeah, how silly of me to think that people on the forum for a game actually followed said game. Crazy to think they'd actually pay any attention to the devs or game demos, right?
Sorry, I don't buy into the idea that I need to craft every post assuming the people reading it don't know anything about the topic.
just forget i said anything sorry to have offended you.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
See ... what I remember from "back when" of the speculation... is either it would be a single player game with "mmo" aspects or *drum roll* WoW in space.
I never saw anyone complaining that ToR was going to be a traditional MMO.
Well, if we go back a year and a half, a lot of people didn't think it was going to be WoW in Space. I know I didn't and I certainly wasn't alone. Certainly there were plenty of Dev comments to back that up. In 2009 they constantly talked about how they wanted each class to feel iconic and properly capture Star Wars (which the Holy Trinity most certainly doesn't do). There were lots of indications it wasn't going to go the WoW route. Obviously such indications didn't pan out.
There are a lot of reasons to be upset about this game, for starters they wanted 16 classes each with their own story. Instead they have 8 with 2 AC's each. More over the E3 footage shows that some, if not all world, non personal story quests, use the same script for the different classes for each choice. Watch the bounty hunter solo tattooine video then the co-op bh sw one. The sith warrior uses the same lines as the BH does. Combined with ugly speeders, a lack of diversity in player species, they picked one set of body types for male and female then picked the races that fit them, lack of ship choice. Suddenly making lightsaber colors alignment specific ignoring all lore and cannon on it, adding in the basic fetch and kill quests they said they weren't putting in the game because it wasn't epic. Then topping it off with poor writing, to make a cake of bad choices on biowares part.
When I first heard that ToR wasn't having an open beta due to the numbers signed up I was like, that sounds reasonable. Then I thought, wait, Rift had an open beta with nearly as many signed up for it and they are a smaller company. Why is BioWare limiting it to only closed Beta all the way to launch. My guess to this is that they don't have to drop the NDA all the way to launch. They can control the flow of information, allow only certain people access to the game, and keep those people from talking about it. More over if they don't do this how are they stress testing it? Becuase getting all the testers on tattooine to jump up and down isn't a stress test, no matter how much they want it to be.
In the end, you look at BioWare and ToR and you see the video's and everything are tailored to calm peoples who are worried. It's like saying look, it's a normal mmo, look this is what we have in it. They show off armor progression and classes just enough to tease people into wanting to play. But when it comes to showing off any real gameplay they just don't do it. Worse still the faith in BioWare is at an all time low after DA2, and they are really having to deal with players going should I trust this game to be what it seems to be? Personally without a head start, or an open Beta I may wait a few days to get my reserve from gamestop, because I'm not just going to trust that this game is what I want it to be.
I've spent a lot of my time on here, defending ToR and BioWare, but post E3 I just can't say I trust them enough to wear their colors sight unseen. I'm not a loyalist, I am a mercenary, I do what I want for the things I want to. Those people that say BioWare owes us, the consumer, no reasurances that their game is worth our money are wrong. They owe us that, and we are right to complain that they haven't made what we wanted, because in the end we have to pay them for the right to use their game. If I pay country club dues and my golf course has ruts in it and the bathroom needs cleaning I'm going to complain. It's my money, it's my right to do so, and if I don't the only person I have to be mad at is me.
TBH this is to in-depth of a post to not be it's own thread, more people should see it than who will. Also it's really not on topic, but I appreciate the depth and clarity, not to mention the ability to state your opinion rationally and concisely.
Again as I basically said to a previous poster, I didn't intend this thread to say there's nothing to complain about in regard to TOR.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
See ... what I remember from "back when" of the speculation... is either it would be a single player game with "mmo" aspects or *drum roll* WoW in space.
I never saw anyone complaining that ToR was going to be a traditional MMO.
Well, if we go back a year and a half, a lot of people didn't think it was going to be WoW in Space. I know I didn't and I certainly wasn't alone. Certainly there were plenty of Dev comments to back that up. In 2009 they constantly talked about how they wanted each class to feel iconic and properly capture Star Wars (which the Holy Trinity most certainly doesn't do). There were lots of indications it wasn't going to go the WoW route. Obviously such indications didn't pan out.
The thing is that kind of language is largely ambiguous and very much liken to double speak. The way the devs set up thier presentations is much how sports managers or politions do, they use a lot of language that dosn't hold a lot of real meaning and it is this that causes the discontiunity between what is reallying going on (I.E tradtional EQ/WoW like MMO) and what people precive to be going on (A jump forward in gamplay systems that support what we think would be ICONIC and PROPER Capturing of the essence that is Star Wars). I think the use of this language is to blame for what some people are feeling now about this game. Though they did at later points clarify how the game would really work. Thier langauge did indeed leave much to be desired.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
just forget i said anything sorry to have offended you.
I'm not offended, I just find your point absurd.
I was just saying that your first statment all it really said was "hey, ToR copies largly from wow" fine, but it didnt discribe the HUGE diffence between and MMO and copying WoW. that was my point, it its absurd sorry.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Yeah I basically got what you were saying, not that I agree with it entirely. I still understood the point.
Sure if you're not looking at if from a position of satire, it is understandable to some extent. That doesn't exactly take away the humor in what loops devs have to jump through, when deciphering what it is players in large part actually want though.
No matter what you do, you'll get people complaining. It isn't really jumping through hoops. You just have to remember there is always some group of people that won't like what you do. Considering TOR is designed very conservatively, I find it leaves very little to admire. The genre needs innovation and TOR doesn't provide much (especially considering the majority of game time is probably spent in combat*).
*Not counting when you might just be chatting or idle.
Being an MMO and largely copying WoW are two different things.
See ... what I remember from "back when" of the speculation... is either it would be a single player game with "mmo" aspects or *drum roll* WoW in space.
I never saw anyone complaining that ToR was going to be a traditional MMO.
Well, if we go back a year and a half, a lot of people didn't think it was going to be WoW in Space. I know I didn't and I certainly wasn't alone. Certainly there were plenty of Dev comments to back that up. In 2009 they constantly talked about how they wanted each class to feel iconic and properly capture Star Wars (which the Holy Trinity most certainly doesn't do). There were lots of indications it wasn't going to go the WoW route. Obviously such indications didn't pan out.
The thing is that kind of language is largely ambiguous and very much liken to double speak. The way the devs set up thier presentations is much how sports managers or politions do, they use a lot of language that dosn't hold a lot of real meaning and it is this that causes the discontiunity between what is reallying going on (I.E tradtional EQ/WoW like MMO) and what people precive to be going on (A jump forward in gamplay systems that support what we think would be ICONIC and PROPER Capturing of the essence that is Star Wars). I think the use of this language is to blame for what some people are feeling now about this game. Though they did at later points clarify how the game would really work. Thier langauge did indeed leave much to be desired.
Agreed. Thier language was horrible in retrospect. That or they started out being more innovative, then other influences from execs and traditionalists forced them to move towards a more WoW-like MMO. Hard to distinguish between the two.
People have been complaining about this for as long as I can remember, guess it just flared up because of the e3 showing.
E3 has me fired up to play it again. It was completely off of my radar until I saw all of the gameplay on E3. I am one of those disgruntled SWG players that was wanting another SWG experience. But, I am now accepting ToR for what it is and I am now looking forward to playing it.
To all of those saying that Bioware is not copying Blizzard, or saying that TOR is a "traditional MMO" game, you need to take a step back and take a look at the mainstream MMO games that have been released in the last 14 years.
Lets pretend for a minute that you could take the gameplay aspects, the meat and potatoes of a game and replace only the graphics engine with WoW. Would you confuse any of the following games for WoW?
UO = Very, very different from WoW. Almost polar opposites while still being a fantasy MMO game.
EQ = Soial aspects, world design, combat, etc.. all very different from WoW.
EvE Online = Funny to picture Orcs flying around in space on giant dragons.
Asheron's Call = skill system, combat system, crafting system, all extremely different from WoW.
Now take The Old Republic... The only difference I can see would be the story aspect and automated crafting. Combat, skill system, gear system, raid system, PvP system. All are pretty much direct copies of WoW.
Here's a news flash. When Bioware says "traditional MMO", they really mean "the most successful MMO". There's no such thing as a traditional MMO. They were all very, very different games design wise until WoW came along, since then the genre has become quite stagnant as everyone tries to copy Blizzard.
Unfortunately game developers still don't get it. There's only one iPod, it was already made. Making something like the iPod isn't going to make you successful, especially when it's the same price as the real thing.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
To all of those saying that Bioware is not copying Blizzard, or saying that TOR is a "traditional MMO" game, you need to take a step back and take a look at the mainstream MMO games that have been released in the last 14 years.
Lets pretend for a minute that you could take the gameplay aspects, the meat and potatoes of a game and replace only the graphics engine with WoW. Would you confuse any of the following games for WoW?
UO = Very, very different from WoW. Almost polar opposites while still being a fantasy MMO game.
EQ = Soial aspects, world design, combat, etc.. all very different from WoW.
EvE Online = Funny to picture Orcs flying around in space on giant dragons.
Asheron's Call = skill system, combat system, crafting system, all extremely different from WoW.
Now take The Old Republic... The only difference I can see would be the story aspect. Combat, skill system, gear system, raid system, PvP system. All are pretty much direct copies of WoW.
Here's a news flash. When Bioware says "traditional MMO", they really mean "the most successful MMO". There's no such thing as a traditional MMO. They were all very, very different games design wise until WoW came along, since the the genre has become quite stagnant as everyone tries to copy Blizzard.
Unfortunately game developers still don't get it. There's only one iPod, it was already made. Making something like the iPod isn't going to make you successful, especially when it's the same price as the real thing.
When I use the term traditional MMO, I'm referring to the EQ/WOW model. As that was the model adopted by the greater MMO populace. I figured that would be obvious though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To all of those saying that Bioware is not copying Blizzard, or saying that TOR is a "traditional MMO" game, you need to take a step back and take a look at the mainstream MMO games that have been released in the last 14 years.
Lets pretend for a minute that you could take the gameplay aspects, the meat and potatoes of a game and replace only the graphics engine with WoW. Would you confuse any of the following games for WoW?
UO = Very, very different from WoW. Almost polar opposites while still being a fantasy MMO game.
EQ = Soial aspects, world design, combat, etc.. all very different from WoW.
EvE Online = Funny to picture Orcs flying around in space on giant dragons.
Asheron's Call = skill system, combat system, crafting system, all extremely different from WoW.
Now take The Old Republic... The only difference I can see would be the story aspect and automated crafting. Combat, skill system, gear system, raid system, PvP system. All are pretty much direct copies of WoW.
Here's a news flash. When Bioware says "traditional MMO", they really mean "the most successful MMO". There's no such thing as a traditional MMO. They were all very, very different games design wise until WoW came along, since then the genre has become quite stagnant as everyone tries to copy Blizzard.
Unfortunately game developers still don't get it. There's only one iPod, it was already made. Making something like the iPod isn't going to make you successful, especially when it's the same price as the real thing.
I guess it would be more prudent to say that ToR falls into the particualr Sub Genre of MMOS that WoW also falls under. That being said many gameplay machanics that exist in WoW and other games that fall into this Sub Genre of MMOS will be present in SWTOR. Not to say that Bioware dosn't add to the flavor with some of its features like the chocie system, but it being part of that catagory will ineveitably have traits of games like WoW and EQ. Much like how call of duty games have many traits of its sub genre in the FPS world but have added things like the perk system and more recently a survial mode akin to old school gauntlet days but instead of keys you have points to open up new "levels" or parts of the map etc..
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
All focus was on an acronym back then (when it mattered) no focus was on usable input about what people wanted in their MMO(s). I think it's safe to assume this is what you get when that happens.
No, the complaints are the same now as they were back then.
The WoW-themepark-model uses many mechanics that veterans don't like, f.e. instancing, phasing, solo-friendly gameplay, etc. SWTOR "evolves" themeparks by reliying even MORE on those mechanics. It focuses on story, but that story is a single-player story injected in a MMO. So, SWTOR is both more "traditional" than traditional themeparks and even less of a real MMO. Get it now?
TSW & GW2 on the other hand evolve the themepark model in more meaningfull ways, while ArchAge mixes in lots of oldschool sandbox elements. They all move in a different direction than SWTOR.
To all of those saying that Bioware is not copying Blizzard, or saying that TOR is a "traditional MMO" game, you need to take a step back and take a look at the mainstream MMO games that have been released in the last 14 years.
Lets pretend for a minute that you could take the gameplay aspects, the meat and potatoes of a game and replace only the graphics engine with WoW. Would you confuse any of the following games for WoW?
UO = Very, very different from WoW. Almost polar opposites while still being a fantasy MMO game.
EQ = Soial aspects, world design, combat, etc.. all very different from WoW.
EvE Online = Funny to picture Orcs flying around in space on giant dragons.
Asheron's Call = skill system, combat system, crafting system, all extremely different from WoW.
Now take The Old Republic... The only difference I can see would be the story aspect and automated crafting. Combat, skill system, gear system, raid system, PvP system. All are pretty much direct copies of WoW.
Here's a news flash. When Bioware says "traditional MMO", they really mean "the most successful MMO". There's no such thing as a traditional MMO. They were all very, very different games design wise until WoW came along, since then the genre has become quite stagnant as everyone tries to copy Blizzard.
Unfortunately game developers still don't get it. There's only one iPod, it was already made. Making something like the iPod isn't going to make you successful, especially when it's the same price as the real thing.
What it really boils down to is the feature list, and that WoW adapted many of the best features from these games, minus EvE of course. The only difference you may see is the Story, but thats only because people see story and just stop there.
DAOC combat wasn't strikingly different than WoW. It had some other features like the 3 faction system, but really it wasn't a total departure. WoW adapted previous MMOs into one feature rich one where everything was modestly polished.
In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
I guess it can be said that people see what they want to see, but if you watch the gameplay, you can see (dynamic) choreographed combat, you can see no auto attack being used, you can see the shift of battle based on class and their class mechanic, you can see use of environment and LOS (or cover), you can SEE the resolve bar of another player in PvP, but all people are paying attention to is that you are clicking a hot bar and actions are being performed and that is similar to WoW.
I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but there are advancements, people just choose to see whats the same and not what they did differently or how that may affect gameplay.
At the beginning of the TOR phenomenon, the one major complaint and worry from this community was whether or not TOR would be a traditional MMO or something like GW or AOC.
i think people mostly worried it would be another WoW re-skin, as it turned out to be. people expected a lot more for a SW game.
In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
*sigh*
Ok, let's try once more: How is any of this a step forward for MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Is it more massive? No. Is it more multiplayer? No. So, is it a step forward for MMOs that players just "chose not to see"? No. There is simply nothing to see here other than WoW mixed with a Bioware RPG. It doesn't change or add depth to the way people play and interact with and each other and the game environment in general.
In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
*sigh*
Ok, let's try once more: How is any of this a step forward for MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Is it more massive? No. Is it more multiplayer? No. So, is it a step forward for MMOs that players just "chose not to see"? No. There is simply nothing to see here other than WoW mixed with a Bioware RPG. It doesn't change or add depth to the way people play and interact with and each other and the game environment in general.
*sigh*
You conveniently left off the last 3 letters of this website's title. MMORPG.
Is it more RPG? YES! That's what BioWare is known for. RPG. So yes, it absolutely adds to depth and the way people play. Gone are the days of running up to every quest giver in an area, right clicking them all and immediately accepting their quests without bothring to read the story. Unfortunatley that's what gamers in this genre have devolved into, due to the game design of WoW and every other MMO to come before/after. But BioWare is changing that.
"...BioWare... putting the RPG back into MMORPG's..."
In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
*sigh*
Ok, let's try once more: How is any of this a step forward for MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Is it more massive? No. Is it more multiplayer? No. So, is it a step forward for MMOs that players just "chose not to see"? No. There is simply nothing to see here other than WoW mixed with a Bioware RPG. It doesn't change or add depth to the way people play and interact with and each other and the game environment in general.
First of all, it IS a big step forward in MMOs because for one, its much more polished, it adds an entirely new level to the genre, and as JPTX said its a step forward in the RPG setting, but what confuses me the most is why you are classifying the progression of the genre by how the differences they are making do not make the game more massive or multiplayer.
Its kind of a wierd thing to be expecting people to progress seeing as how even the most open games geared towards grouping can't guarantee a strong playerbase. Another big misconception about SWTOR is that they force everyone to play alone, and that isn't true at all. The game is multiplayer as anything else you'd call an MMORPG out there, forcing characters to work together on content and requiring collaboration between crafters when crafting items. It also changes the way people interact simply because the multiplayer dialog is not ONLY more immersive, but also rewards players with social points. The accomodation system they have for PvP where you reward players that play well is also a nice addition to encourage team play.
But that doesn't really pinpoint your issue here. When I was pointing out some various differences I was pointing out that there are some steps forward in the way they've implemented features, everywhere from crafting to questing, to combat. The game also has advancements in how players interact, but does that mean it will be MORE multiplayer than other games? It sure as hell isn't less multiplayer than LOTR, WoW, FE, CoH or any number of other MMOs currently on the market. As for massive, yeah, it caters to massive open world PvP if the community supports it. The size of the game is surely bigger than anything we've ever seen launched.
So I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of moving the genre to more massive or more multiplayer. If you want massive open world questing and events, perhaps SWTORs heroics? You'll have to be more specific.
u know i never comment on these forums anymore, and i hardly ever read these forums anymore. the reason why i have chosen to do so is because there is alot of negitivity for every game u see. Alot of people going against what teh OP wrote in this thread Can be trailed back to doing exactly what he is talking about... not all of u, but most of you..... The fact is that it makes for a very unhealthy community. I remember a long time ago thsi place used to be a place where u could get really good info on games whether bad or good from people who had weighed teh pros and cons. Now you just see people giving false info, or opinios thats werent really thought through, or just saying things because they want to create animosity amongst others in teh community! They thrive off of it. Its a bad weed!! If this game isnt for you then fine, but this community would be much better off if other readers here didnt just come in and badmouth a game every chance they get because they have personal feelings about it. Its plain old childish..
All focus was on an acronym back then (when it mattered) no focus was on usable input about what people wanted in their MMO(s). I think it's safe to assume this is what you get when that happens.
No, the complaints are the same now as they were back then.
The WoW-themepark-model uses many mechanics that veterans don't like, f.e. instancing, phasing, solo-friendly gameplay, etc. SWTOR "evolves" themeparks by reliying even MORE on those mechanics. It focuses on story, but that story is a single-player story injected in a MMO. So, SWTOR is both more "traditional" than traditional themeparks and even less of a real MMO. Get it now?
TSW & GW2 on the other hand evolve the themepark model in more meaningfull ways, while ArchAge mixes in lots of oldschool sandbox elements. They all move in a different direction than SWTOR.
*Some complaints are the same as they were back then.*
Regardless I think you're missing the point of what I said in that sentence though. Even if some complaints are the same now, it doesn't change that there was very little actual feedback given back then outside of "it's not going to be an MMO, make it an MMO Bioware". Or as you said "it's going to be WOW in space".
Those who thought it was going to be WOW in space were pretty much right. They don't play well into irony though, so I wasn't referring to those types of complaints in the earlier part of my OP. Only those complaining it would not be an MMO, which was a lot of people.
As far as your point goes, yes I understand what you're saying, however I do not agree with it. TOR is changing the presentation themeparks have offered since their beginning. While that may not sound like a big change to you. I feel it could drastically change the way it feels to play one in overall scope. That alone could separate it from the typcial WOW feel.
People not liking certain elements TOR is utilizing on a technical level, Is a bit of a premature statement. They may not like how WOW used them, but how can they know they won't like how TOR does before playing it?
The story isn't only told through the use of single-player elements, your class story yes, but you already contradicted yourself on that, as you mention GW2 yet didn't mention that same problem there, as your class story is very much single-player in that game. As far as I know that's the only story going on in GW2.
At least in TOR, there are multi-player stories to take part in as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Irony, a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated."
In short demanding something over and over again, then denouncing it when you get it.
Yeah, but the situation is largely "some people complained about X" and later "some other people complained about Y". It's not really ironic. You are conflating different groups of people into one group.
"Irony, a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated."
In short demanding something over and over again, then denouncing it when you get it.
Yeah, but the situation is largely "some people complained about X" and later "some other people complained about Y". It's not really ironic. You are conflating different groups of people into one group.
Is this really that hard to understand or get? I'm referring to the loudest arguements around the community, not individual groups or what have you. The prevelant complaint in the begining was this wasn't going to be an MMO, instead it would be a second coming of AOC or something. Now the big complaint is that it is more or less an MMO and more of the same.
I've said many times I understand there are many who wanted something different , those who expected WOW and those who were happy. I'm just referring to the biggest overall complaint.
The irony is that while people were screaming for an MMO, they could have been asking for changes to the genre and making those wants loud and clear. Instead they were hung up on the acronym (MMO) not the context of what that means, and what they liked about it or didn't. You know useful feedback, that could be translated into development other than "give me MMO". What did we get ? An MMO, and that's about it.
Looking at this from a serious point of view I can only say one thing, stop the semantics games and add opinions that offer value.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The story isn't only told through the use of single-player elements, your class story yes, but you already contradicted yourself on that, as you mention GW2 yet didn't mention that same problem there, as your class story is very much single-player in that game. As far as I know that's the only story going on in GW2.
At least in TOR, there are multi-player stories to take part in as well.
Even GW1 had a multiplayer story like that back in the days, including plenty of voiced cutscenes. But it was told in instances for your group only. Like, everybody kills Darth Vader, then kills Darth Vader in Hard Mode, then help their friends kill DV, then kill DV 10 more times because he drops nice loot. Poor Darth Vader sure dies a lot in that story. Feels more like Groundhog Day than an epic Star Wars world ;P
GW2 now has real "world stories" like a MMO should have, but also has an area for a traditional personal story. And that personal background story indeed suffers from the same problems, f.e. every player having the same instanced brother. It feels like a bad choice to not leave this kind of storytelling behind altogether, but i guess it will be bearable.
Looks like TSW won't have any of those "personal" stories at all, but unfortunately it doesn't have that focus on dynamic events either (although there are a few dynamic missions). But it's certainly more progressive than SWTOR as well.
In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
*sigh*
Ok, let's try once more: How is any of this a step forward for MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Is it more massive? No. Is it more multiplayer? No. So, is it a step forward for MMOs that players just "chose not to see"? No. There is simply nothing to see here other than WoW mixed with a Bioware RPG. It doesn't change or add depth to the way people play and interact with and each other and the game environment in general.
*sigh*
You conveniently left off the last 3 letters of this website's title. MMORPG.
Is it more RPG? YES! That's what BioWare is known for. RPG. So yes, it absolutely adds to depth and the way people play. Gone are the days of running up to every quest giver in an area, right clicking them all and immediately accepting their quests without bothring to read the story. Unfortunatley that's what gamers in this genre have devolved into, due to the game design of WoW and every other MMO to come before/after. But BioWare is changing that.
"...BioWare... putting the RPG back into MMORPG's..."
Except that nobody ever said that SWTOR is lacking in the RPG department. And yes, compared to ~7 years old WoW, it indeed adds some nice stuff like more story and voice-overs. But other MMOs offer just the same and improve the MMO part as well. So what's the big fuzz?
Comments
just forget i said anything sorry to have offended you.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Well, if we go back a year and a half, a lot of people didn't think it was going to be WoW in Space. I know I didn't and I certainly wasn't alone. Certainly there were plenty of Dev comments to back that up. In 2009 they constantly talked about how they wanted each class to feel iconic and properly capture Star Wars (which the Holy Trinity most certainly doesn't do). There were lots of indications it wasn't going to go the WoW route. Obviously such indications didn't pan out.
I'm not offended, I just find your point absurd.
TBH this is to in-depth of a post to not be it's own thread, more people should see it than who will. Also it's really not on topic, but I appreciate the depth and clarity, not to mention the ability to state your opinion rationally and concisely.
Again as I basically said to a previous poster, I didn't intend this thread to say there's nothing to complain about in regard to TOR.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What the frack this isn't a news piece get the **** out of here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The thing is that kind of language is largely ambiguous and very much liken to double speak. The way the devs set up thier presentations is much how sports managers or politions do, they use a lot of language that dosn't hold a lot of real meaning and it is this that causes the discontiunity between what is reallying going on (I.E tradtional EQ/WoW like MMO) and what people precive to be going on (A jump forward in gamplay systems that support what we think would be ICONIC and PROPER Capturing of the essence that is Star Wars). I think the use of this language is to blame for what some people are feeling now about this game. Though they did at later points clarify how the game would really work. Thier langauge did indeed leave much to be desired.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
I was just saying that your first statment all it really said was "hey, ToR copies largly from wow" fine, but it didnt discribe the HUGE diffence between and MMO and copying WoW. that was my point, it its absurd sorry.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
No matter what you do, you'll get people complaining. It isn't really jumping through hoops. You just have to remember there is always some group of people that won't like what you do. Considering TOR is designed very conservatively, I find it leaves very little to admire. The genre needs innovation and TOR doesn't provide much (especially considering the majority of game time is probably spent in combat*).
*Not counting when you might just be chatting or idle.
Agreed. Thier language was horrible in retrospect. That or they started out being more innovative, then other influences from execs and traditionalists forced them to move towards a more WoW-like MMO. Hard to distinguish between the two.
E3 has me fired up to play it again. It was completely off of my radar until I saw all of the gameplay on E3. I am one of those disgruntled SWG players that was wanting another SWG experience. But, I am now accepting ToR for what it is and I am now looking forward to playing it.
To all of those saying that Bioware is not copying Blizzard, or saying that TOR is a "traditional MMO" game, you need to take a step back and take a look at the mainstream MMO games that have been released in the last 14 years.
Lets pretend for a minute that you could take the gameplay aspects, the meat and potatoes of a game and replace only the graphics engine with WoW. Would you confuse any of the following games for WoW?
UO = Very, very different from WoW. Almost polar opposites while still being a fantasy MMO game.
EQ = Soial aspects, world design, combat, etc.. all very different from WoW.
DAOC = 3 faction warfare, unique combat system, meaningful PvP focused.
EvE Online = Funny to picture Orcs flying around in space on giant dragons.
Asheron's Call = skill system, combat system, crafting system, all extremely different from WoW.
Now take The Old Republic... The only difference I can see would be the story aspect and automated crafting. Combat, skill system, gear system, raid system, PvP system. All are pretty much direct copies of WoW.
Here's a news flash. When Bioware says "traditional MMO", they really mean "the most successful MMO". There's no such thing as a traditional MMO. They were all very, very different games design wise until WoW came along, since then the genre has become quite stagnant as everyone tries to copy Blizzard.
Unfortunately game developers still don't get it. There's only one iPod, it was already made. Making something like the iPod isn't going to make you successful, especially when it's the same price as the real thing.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
When I use the term traditional MMO, I'm referring to the EQ/WOW model. As that was the model adopted by the greater MMO populace. I figured that would be obvious though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess it would be more prudent to say that ToR falls into the particualr Sub Genre of MMOS that WoW also falls under. That being said many gameplay machanics that exist in WoW and other games that fall into this Sub Genre of MMOS will be present in SWTOR. Not to say that Bioware dosn't add to the flavor with some of its features like the chocie system, but it being part of that catagory will ineveitably have traits of games like WoW and EQ. Much like how call of duty games have many traits of its sub genre in the FPS world but have added things like the perk system and more recently a survial mode akin to old school gauntlet days but instead of keys you have points to open up new "levels" or parts of the map etc..
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
No, the complaints are the same now as they were back then.
The WoW-themepark-model uses many mechanics that veterans don't like, f.e. instancing, phasing, solo-friendly gameplay, etc. SWTOR "evolves" themeparks by reliying even MORE on those mechanics. It focuses on story, but that story is a single-player story injected in a MMO. So, SWTOR is both more "traditional" than traditional themeparks and even less of a real MMO. Get it now?
TSW & GW2 on the other hand evolve the themepark model in more meaningfull ways, while ArchAge mixes in lots of oldschool sandbox elements. They all move in a different direction than SWTOR.
Hype train -> Reality
What it really boils down to is the feature list, and that WoW adapted many of the best features from these games, minus EvE of course. The only difference you may see is the Story, but thats only because people see story and just stop there.
DAOC combat wasn't strikingly different than WoW. It had some other features like the 3 faction system, but really it wasn't a total departure. WoW adapted previous MMOs into one feature rich one where everything was modestly polished.
In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
I guess it can be said that people see what they want to see, but if you watch the gameplay, you can see (dynamic) choreographed combat, you can see no auto attack being used, you can see the shift of battle based on class and their class mechanic, you can see use of environment and LOS (or cover), you can SEE the resolve bar of another player in PvP, but all people are paying attention to is that you are clicking a hot bar and actions are being performed and that is similar to WoW.
I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but there are advancements, people just choose to see whats the same and not what they did differently or how that may affect gameplay.
i think people mostly worried it would be another WoW re-skin, as it turned out to be. people expected a lot more for a SW game.
*sigh*
Ok, let's try once more: How is any of this a step forward for MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Is it more massive? No. Is it more multiplayer? No. So, is it a step forward for MMOs that players just "chose not to see"? No. There is simply nothing to see here other than WoW mixed with a Bioware RPG. It doesn't change or add depth to the way people play and interact with and each other and the game environment in general.
Hype train -> Reality
*sigh*
You conveniently left off the last 3 letters of this website's title. MMORPG.
Is it more RPG? YES! That's what BioWare is known for. RPG. So yes, it absolutely adds to depth and the way people play. Gone are the days of running up to every quest giver in an area, right clicking them all and immediately accepting their quests without bothring to read the story. Unfortunatley that's what gamers in this genre have devolved into, due to the game design of WoW and every other MMO to come before/after. But BioWare is changing that.
"...BioWare... putting the RPG back into MMORPG's..."
First of all, it IS a big step forward in MMOs because for one, its much more polished, it adds an entirely new level to the genre, and as JPTX said its a step forward in the RPG setting, but what confuses me the most is why you are classifying the progression of the genre by how the differences they are making do not make the game more massive or multiplayer.
Its kind of a wierd thing to be expecting people to progress seeing as how even the most open games geared towards grouping can't guarantee a strong playerbase. Another big misconception about SWTOR is that they force everyone to play alone, and that isn't true at all. The game is multiplayer as anything else you'd call an MMORPG out there, forcing characters to work together on content and requiring collaboration between crafters when crafting items. It also changes the way people interact simply because the multiplayer dialog is not ONLY more immersive, but also rewards players with social points. The accomodation system they have for PvP where you reward players that play well is also a nice addition to encourage team play.
But that doesn't really pinpoint your issue here. When I was pointing out some various differences I was pointing out that there are some steps forward in the way they've implemented features, everywhere from crafting to questing, to combat. The game also has advancements in how players interact, but does that mean it will be MORE multiplayer than other games? It sure as hell isn't less multiplayer than LOTR, WoW, FE, CoH or any number of other MMOs currently on the market. As for massive, yeah, it caters to massive open world PvP if the community supports it. The size of the game is surely bigger than anything we've ever seen launched.
So I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of moving the genre to more massive or more multiplayer. If you want massive open world questing and events, perhaps SWTORs heroics? You'll have to be more specific.
u know i never comment on these forums anymore, and i hardly ever read these forums anymore. the reason why i have chosen to do so is because there is alot of negitivity for every game u see. Alot of people going against what teh OP wrote in this thread Can be trailed back to doing exactly what he is talking about... not all of u, but most of you..... The fact is that it makes for a very unhealthy community. I remember a long time ago thsi place used to be a place where u could get really good info on games whether bad or good from people who had weighed teh pros and cons. Now you just see people giving false info, or opinios thats werent really thought through, or just saying things because they want to create animosity amongst others in teh community! They thrive off of it. Its a bad weed!! If this game isnt for you then fine, but this community would be much better off if other readers here didnt just come in and badmouth a game every chance they get because they have personal feelings about it. Its plain old childish..
*Some complaints are the same as they were back then.*
Regardless I think you're missing the point of what I said in that sentence though. Even if some complaints are the same now, it doesn't change that there was very little actual feedback given back then outside of "it's not going to be an MMO, make it an MMO Bioware". Or as you said "it's going to be WOW in space".
Those who thought it was going to be WOW in space were pretty much right. They don't play well into irony though, so I wasn't referring to those types of complaints in the earlier part of my OP. Only those complaining it would not be an MMO, which was a lot of people.
As far as your point goes, yes I understand what you're saying, however I do not agree with it. TOR is changing the presentation themeparks have offered since their beginning. While that may not sound like a big change to you. I feel it could drastically change the way it feels to play one in overall scope. That alone could separate it from the typcial WOW feel.
People not liking certain elements TOR is utilizing on a technical level, Is a bit of a premature statement. They may not like how WOW used them, but how can they know they won't like how TOR does before playing it?
The story isn't only told through the use of single-player elements, your class story yes, but you already contradicted yourself on that, as you mention GW2 yet didn't mention that same problem there, as your class story is very much single-player in that game. As far as I know that's the only story going on in GW2.
At least in TOR, there are multi-player stories to take part in as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeah, but the situation is largely "some people complained about X" and later "some other people complained about Y". It's not really ironic. You are conflating different groups of people into one group.
Is this really that hard to understand or get? I'm referring to the loudest arguements around the community, not individual groups or what have you. The prevelant complaint in the begining was this wasn't going to be an MMO, instead it would be a second coming of AOC or something. Now the big complaint is that it is more or less an MMO and more of the same.
I've said many times I understand there are many who wanted something different , those who expected WOW and those who were happy. I'm just referring to the biggest overall complaint.
The irony is that while people were screaming for an MMO, they could have been asking for changes to the genre and making those wants loud and clear. Instead they were hung up on the acronym (MMO) not the context of what that means, and what they liked about it or didn't. You know useful feedback, that could be translated into development other than "give me MMO". What did we get ? An MMO, and that's about it.
Looking at this from a serious point of view I can only say one thing, stop the semantics games and add opinions that offer value.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even GW1 had a multiplayer story like that back in the days, including plenty of voiced cutscenes. But it was told in instances for your group only. Like, everybody kills Darth Vader, then kills Darth Vader in Hard Mode, then help their friends kill DV, then kill DV 10 more times because he drops nice loot. Poor Darth Vader sure dies a lot in that story. Feels more like Groundhog Day than an epic Star Wars world ;P
GW2 now has real "world stories" like a MMO should have, but also has an area for a traditional personal story. And that personal background story indeed suffers from the same problems, f.e. every player having the same instanced brother. It feels like a bad choice to not leave this kind of storytelling behind altogether, but i guess it will be bearable.
Looks like TSW won't have any of those "personal" stories at all, but unfortunately it doesn't have that focus on dynamic events either (although there are a few dynamic missions). But it's certainly more progressive than SWTOR as well.
Hype train -> Reality
Except that nobody ever said that SWTOR is lacking in the RPG department. And yes, compared to ~7 years old WoW, it indeed adds some nice stuff like more story and voice-overs. But other MMOs offer just the same and improve the MMO part as well. So what's the big fuzz?
Hype train -> Reality