Actually you can chase the Centaurs all the way back to their stronghold and kill their leader. Just saying.
Fully aware of that, but like I said, you can't follow through to genocide. That's why after a while, the centaurs pick a new leader and they set out all over again.
Right, was just clarifying for those who don't understand. You can go all the way back to their village, but you can't exterminate the bastards!
I understand all this, so my only real question regarding that situation is the length of time in between, from when you destroy the centaur stronghold to the time when the centaurs say, "Hey lets make THAT guy leader!".
If theres enough lag time between the defeat and the return of the centaurs, it shouldn't be a big deal.
I envision larger chains working in a way that you may likely notice substantial changes, but I also see much smaller chains repeating frequently. Its not that I think DEs will always be the same, I'm trying to dispel the idea that everything will always be different. Perhaps the centaurs return in a month, maybe then it won't be such an issue, maybe they return in an hour. Who really knows at this point.
As I said my opinions can change, but right now, this is where I'm at.
Im a bit slow tonight, so pardon me while you spoon feed me, but I'm used to two kinds of classes in my mmo's: Those to kill monsters, and those who support those who kill monsters. Even in games with 12+ different classes, it all boils down to this. The holy trinity is also a good way to divide the classes at a fundamental level (although the tank is usually a hybrid between "monster killer" and a "supporter").
What you are telling me is that everybody in gw2 will run around and do the same thing? Just in different wrappers?
Sort of.
In the standard MMO you have 1 guy who is the tank all of the time 1 guy who heals all of the time and some other expendable guys who do stuff (usually make the fight go faster by focusing on damage).
GW2 removed taunts and aggro managing skills so that someone can't sit their and have the enemies focus on them. Ally targeted skills are also removed so nobody can sit their and heal the guy taking damage.
Now everybody has to work together to get through group based content. Its not so like eating the same candy but in a different wrapper as it is eating different kinds of candy that is the same flavor. Both a Warrior and an Engineer can heal and support their allies but they are going to be doing it in very different ways. Warriors are very straight-forward in the way they do things but Engineers can't afford to support allies like a Warrior does and uses stationary turrets or an elixir gun rather than the Warrior's shouts or banners.
Intriguing! You know, I'm not saying that the MMORPG universe will go sunder if we remove the traditional "monster killers" and "supporters" divides. It's just very strange from my current standpoint -which you'll have to forgive me because it's just what I'm used to. So what you're saying is that, i.e. I play an elementalist, I run into action with my teammates, but I cant target my teammates? Like with f2-f6? Meaning my support spells are AOE only? If so, it sounds interesting.
However, I do hope the content will be very challenging. I play DDO these days to pass the time, and you can pick your content varying from solo, normal, hard and elite mode. Often people will team up and select normal... I mean, we might as well shoot fish in a barrel...
But from what you're saying, it does sound like GW2 will be breaking off from the traditional MMORPG route in terms of class divides. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
Yes, you are correct, you cannot target your teammates. You can put down a ground-targed AOE that they would have to be aware of and stand inside in order to reap benefits, as an example. Healing Rain (for elementalists), a Healing Turret for engineers, a War Banner for a Warrior to give a buff, etc. etc.
You should read some of the reports of fans who played the dungeon content on ArenaNet Fan Day last Friday, linked elsewhere on these forums. For your challenging, *must coordinate or die* content, dungeons (specifically in explorable mode) are where it's at.
Im a bit slow tonight, so pardon me while you spoon feed me, but I'm used to two kinds of classes in my mmo's: Those to kill monsters, and those who support those who kill monsters. Even in games with 12+ different classes, it all boils down to this. The holy trinity is also a good way to divide the classes at a fundamental level (although the tank is usually a hybrid between "monster killer" and a "supporter").
What you are telling me is that everybody in gw2 will run around and do the same thing? Just in different wrappers?
Sort of.
In the standard MMO you have 1 guy who is the tank all of the time 1 guy who heals all of the time and some other expendable guys who do stuff (usually make the fight go faster by focusing on damage).
GW2 removed taunts and aggro managing skills so that someone can't sit their and have the enemies focus on them. Ally targeted skills are also removed so nobody can sit their and heal the guy taking damage.
Now everybody has to work together to get through group based content. Its not so like eating the same candy but in a different wrapper as it is eating different kinds of candy that is the same flavor. Both a Warrior and an Engineer can heal and support their allies but they are going to be doing it in very different ways. Warriors are very straight-forward in the way they do things but Engineers can't afford to support allies like a Warrior does and uses stationary turrets or an elixir gun rather than the Warrior's shouts or banners.
Intriguing! You know, I'm not saying that the MMORPG universe will go sunder if we remove the traditional "monster killers" and "supporters" divides. It's just very strange from my current standpoint -which you'll have to forgive me because it's just what I'm used to. So what you're saying is that, i.e. I play an elementalist, I run into action with my teammates, but I cant target my teammates? Like with f2-f6? Meaning my support spells are AOE only? If so, it sounds interesting.
However, I do hope the content will be very challenging. I play DDO these days to pass the time, and you can pick your content varying from solo, normal, hard and elite mode. Often people will team up and select normal... I mean, we might as well shoot fish in a barrel...
But from what you're saying, it does sound like GW2 will be breaking off from the traditional MMORPG route in terms of class divides. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
According to write-ups of the Fanday that was happened last friday, every group ran the same dungeon with different set-up (one group consisted of 4 elementalists and an engineer) and finished almost the same time. Every group also ended up wiping several times. When they tried to do one of the explorable modes of the dungeon only 1 group besides one of the developer groups was able to finish it.
Im a bit slow tonight, so pardon me while you spoon feed me, but I'm used to two kinds of classes in my mmo's: Those to kill monsters, and those who support those who kill monsters. Even in games with 12+ different classes, it all boils down to this. The holy trinity is also a good way to divide the classes at a fundamental level (although the tank is usually a hybrid between "monster killer" and a "supporter").
What you are telling me is that everybody in gw2 will run around and do the same thing? Just in different wrappers?
Sort of.
In the standard MMO you have 1 guy who is the tank all of the time 1 guy who heals all of the time and some other expendable guys who do stuff (usually make the fight go faster by focusing on damage).
GW2 removed taunts and aggro managing skills so that someone can't sit their and have the enemies focus on them. Ally targeted skills are also removed so nobody can sit their and heal the guy taking damage.
Now everybody has to work together to get through group based content. Its not so like eating the same candy but in a different wrapper as it is eating different kinds of candy that is the same flavor. Both a Warrior and an Engineer can heal and support their allies but they are going to be doing it in very different ways. Warriors are very straight-forward in the way they do things but Engineers can't afford to support allies like a Warrior does and uses stationary turrets or an elixir gun rather than the Warrior's shouts or banners.
Intriguing! You know, I'm not saying that the MMORPG universe will go sunder if we remove the traditional "monster killers" and "supporters" divides. It's just very strange from my current standpoint -which you'll have to forgive me because it's just what I'm used to. So what you're saying is that, i.e. I play an elementalist, I run into action with my teammates, but I cant target my teammates? Like with f2-f6? Meaning my support spells are AOE only? If so, it sounds interesting.
However, I do hope the content will be very challenging. I play DDO these days to pass the time, and you can pick your content varying from solo, normal, hard and elite mode. Often people will team up and select normal... I mean, we might as well shoot fish in a barrel...
But from what you're saying, it does sound like GW2 will be breaking off from the traditional MMORPG route in terms of class divides. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
Yes, and as far as difficulty of content the dungeons have different modes. You have story mode which is the basic mode of the dungeon which tells the story of it and is like DDO's normal mode. Then you have Exploration Mode which Colin said is for your people who like raiding and like real challenges. You then are presented with usually on each dungeon 3 different choices to solve a problem, and this then gives you a different branch of content to do that is different than the other choices and different than the story mode. Then, while in the dungeon you have the chance to trigger a dynamic event which can further change your experience in the dungeon.
Anyways, with 8 dungeons being in the game, and with each having a story mode then around 3 branches for exploration mode, Jeff Grubb described it as being the equivalent of the game having 32 dungeons in place.
Intriguing! You know, I'm not saying that the MMORPG universe will go sunder if we remove the traditional "monster killers" and "supporters" divides. It's just very strange from my current standpoint -which you'll have to forgive me because it's just what I'm used to. So what you're saying is that, i.e. I play an elementalist, I run into action with my teammates, but I cant target my teammates? Like with f2-f6? Meaning my support spells are AOE only? If so, it sounds interesting.
However, I do hope the content will be very challenging. I play DDO these days to pass the time, and you can pick your content varying from solo, normal, hard and elite mode. Often people will team up and select normal... I mean, we might as well shoot fish in a barrel...
But from what you're saying, it does sound like GW2 will be breaking off from the traditional MMORPG route in terms of class divides. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
Yeah, no player targeting. That means it requires a lot of situational awareness on both party's parts.
The supporter has to go 'Oh, they are over here, I should put a support over there', and the people who need support need to realize 'Oh, something has been done, I need to take advantage of it'.
So far as challenge.... it seems much of the dynamic events and the story mode dungeons won't be too amazingly challenging...
... but there are supposed to be some later dynamic events that are specifically difficult... and explorable mode in dungeons is supposed to be a hard challenge to a well organized team, not something you can just do with your average PUG.
Of course, for a REAL challenge, PvP is probably one of the best places to get that. In that, you can only get as far as you're good, and other players will keep you on your toes.
Its not that I think DEs will always be the same, I'm trying to dispel the idea that everything will always be different. Perhaps the centaurs return in a month, maybe then it won't be such an issue, maybe they return in an hour. Who really knows at this point.
As I said my opinions can change, but right now, this is where I'm at.
MAGICAL LORE SPRINKLES.
(cough)
Of course they won't always be different. I'm not going to go back through all those pages, but everybody who has responded to you recently seems fully aware of that.
I would like to point out that the content you're LESS likely to see is the 'oh no, everything went bad' content, at least tin the beginning. WIth so many people running around, how often will the centaurs conquer multiple villages and get to the bad end of the chain?
THough it would be fun to visit a server with low population after say... an internet outage. Some sort of post-apocalyptic GW2 wasteland with every single bad ending, all the towns except the main cities taken over.
If I wanted a fully dynamic RPG with constantly changing content, I'd go do some P&P gaming. That's the only place you're going to find it, sorry. I can't even think of a single player CRPG that remotely delivers on that. To be honest, upon further reflection, I find it disingenuous and weird that you'd even have that in your list of things you don't like.
I don't like that in SW:ToR George Lucas doesn't come over to my house and give me large wads of cash then shine my shoes, but I would never bother sticking it in a list of things I dislike about SW:ToR. (Technically, this is actually more possible than truly dynamic dynamic events, since George Lucas IS a person with lots of money, and one would assume some rudimentary shoe shining skills, but no gaming company has the programming manpower or budget to create that much truly dynamic content)
Shouldn't you only put things in that are remotely feasible?
Actually you can chase the Centaurs all the way back to their stronghold and kill their leader. Just saying.
Fully aware of that, but like I said, you can't follow through to genocide. That's why after a while, the centaurs pick a new leader and they set out all over again.
Right, was just clarifying for those who don't understand. You can go all the way back to their village, but you can't exterminate the bastards!
I understand all this, so my only real question regarding that situation is the length of time in between, from when you destroy the centaur stronghold to the time when the centaurs say, "Hey lets make THAT guy leader!".
If theres enough lag time between the defeat and the return of the centaurs, it shouldn't be a big deal.
I envision larger chains working in a way that you may likely notice substantial changes, but I also see much smaller chains repeating frequently. Its not that I think DEs will always be the same, I'm trying to dispel the idea that everything will always be different. Perhaps the centaurs return in a month, maybe then it won't be such an issue, maybe they return in an hour. Who really knows at this point.
As I said my opinions can change, but right now, this is where I'm at.
They said there is no time set upon which they will return or it will cycle through. It will all be based on players doing certain things with different events and upon which phase they leave it or push it back to. There is no set time for the cycling. Also, look at what Meowhead said above. We all know that it won't always be different, we have been saying this over and over again. Your first argument was that it is still static with a little bit of Dynamic features. Which isn't true, what we are trying to say is that it is Dynamic however, because of the state of programming and limitations of content creators and funds, that it is finite and you will eventually see the same branches.
But according to Colin, even when experiencing the same branch, it could be different because of different events affecting each other. However, once you play enough of course you will run through all variations, but that is what expansions are for in the future! You cannot deny though that this a step towards the future on how we experience content in games.
Im a bit slow tonight, so pardon me while you spoon feed me, but I'm used to two kinds of classes in my mmo's: Those to kill monsters, and those who support those who kill monsters. Even in games with 12+ different classes, it all boils down to this. The holy trinity is also a good way to divide the classes at a fundamental level (although the tank is usually a hybrid between "monster killer" and a "supporter").
What you are telling me is that everybody in gw2 will run around and do the same thing? Just in different wrappers?
Sort of.
In the standard MMO you have 1 guy who is the tank all of the time 1 guy who heals all of the time and some other expendable guys who do stuff (usually make the fight go faster by focusing on damage).
GW2 removed taunts and aggro managing skills so that someone can't sit their and have the enemies focus on them. Ally targeted skills are also removed so nobody can sit their and heal the guy taking damage.
Now everybody has to work together to get through group based content. Its not so like eating the same candy but in a different wrapper as it is eating different kinds of candy that is the same flavor. Both a Warrior and an Engineer can heal and support their allies but they are going to be doing it in very different ways. Warriors are very straight-forward in the way they do things but Engineers can't afford to support allies like a Warrior does and uses stationary turrets or an elixir gun rather than the Warrior's shouts or banners.
Intriguing! You know, I'm not saying that the MMORPG universe will go sunder if we remove the traditional "monster killers" and "supporters" divides. It's just very strange from my current standpoint -which you'll have to forgive me because it's just what I'm used to. So what you're saying is that, i.e. I play an elementalist, I run into action with my teammates, but I cant target my teammates? Like with f2-f6? Meaning my support spells are AOE only? If so, it sounds interesting.
However, I do hope the content will be very challenging. I play DDO these days to pass the time, and you can pick your content varying from solo, normal, hard and elite mode. Often people will team up and select normal... I mean, we might as well shoot fish in a barrel...
But from what you're saying, it does sound like GW2 will be breaking off from the traditional MMORPG route in terms of class divides. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
Yes, and as far as difficulty of content the dungeons have different modes. You have story mode which is the basic mode of the dungeon which tells the story of it and is like DDO's normal mode. Then you have Exploration Mode which Colin said is for your people who like raiding and like real challenges. You then are presented with usually on each dungeon 3 different choices to solve a problem, and this then gives you a different branch of content to do that is different than the other choices and different than the story mode. Then, while in the dungeon you have the chance to trigger a dynamic event which can further change your experience in the dungeon.
Anyways, with 8 dungeons being in the game, and with each having a story mode then around 3 branches for exploration mode, Jeff Grubb described it as being the equivalent of the game having 32 dungeons in place.
I liked what you said just up untill that very last paragraph 8 dungeons for how many levels? What's max lvl in gw2? And although it does sound dynamic and you're experience will probably differ from time to time, I dont suppose the dungeon will visually look any different? However, 8 dungeons is still quite a few more dungeons than other games have launched with. Let's just hope they settle with 8 for an extended period of time.
I liked what you said just up untill that very last paragraph 8 dungeons for how many levels? What's max lvl in gw2? And although it does sound dynamic and you're experience will probably differ from time to time, I dont suppose the dungeon will visually look any different? However, 8 dungeons is still quite a few more dungeons than other games have launched with. Let's just hope they settle with 8 for an extended period of time.
Well, your'e suppoed to go into different parts of the dungeon, see different monster spawns (Like in the first dungeon, it's only ghosts the first time, then it's some other monsters) and fight different bosses.
So... visually different in some ways, though of course the dungeon theme will remain.
... and 8 dungeons for 80 levels. One starting at 35, and 1 for every 10 levels after (With a couple extra max level dungeons)
The nice thing is, since the game automatically reverse sidekicks you when you go to lower level areas, you can repeat older dungeons at high levels, and they can still be challenging.
... EXTRA challenging if you really need the thrill and just drop a party member or two. :> (Something the Arenanet people said they would try for an extra challenge)
Im a bit slow tonight, so pardon me while you spoon feed me, but I'm used to two kinds of classes in my mmo's: Those to kill monsters, and those who support those who kill monsters. Even in games with 12+ different classes, it all boils down to this. The holy trinity is also a good way to divide the classes at a fundamental level (although the tank is usually a hybrid between "monster killer" and a "supporter").
What you are telling me is that everybody in gw2 will run around and do the same thing? Just in different wrappers?
Sort of.
In the standard MMO you have 1 guy who is the tank all of the time 1 guy who heals all of the time and some other expendable guys who do stuff (usually make the fight go faster by focusing on damage).
GW2 removed taunts and aggro managing skills so that someone can't sit their and have the enemies focus on them. Ally targeted skills are also removed so nobody can sit their and heal the guy taking damage.
Now everybody has to work together to get through group based content. Its not so like eating the same candy but in a different wrapper as it is eating different kinds of candy that is the same flavor. Both a Warrior and an Engineer can heal and support their allies but they are going to be doing it in very different ways. Warriors are very straight-forward in the way they do things but Engineers can't afford to support allies like a Warrior does and uses stationary turrets or an elixir gun rather than the Warrior's shouts or banners.
Intriguing! You know, I'm not saying that the MMORPG universe will go sunder if we remove the traditional "monster killers" and "supporters" divides. It's just very strange from my current standpoint -which you'll have to forgive me because it's just what I'm used to. So what you're saying is that, i.e. I play an elementalist, I run into action with my teammates, but I cant target my teammates? Like with f2-f6? Meaning my support spells are AOE only? If so, it sounds interesting.
However, I do hope the content will be very challenging. I play DDO these days to pass the time, and you can pick your content varying from solo, normal, hard and elite mode. Often people will team up and select normal... I mean, we might as well shoot fish in a barrel...
But from what you're saying, it does sound like GW2 will be breaking off from the traditional MMORPG route in terms of class divides. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
Yes, and as far as difficulty of content the dungeons have different modes. You have story mode which is the basic mode of the dungeon which tells the story of it and is like DDO's normal mode. Then you have Exploration Mode which Colin said is for your people who like raiding and like real challenges. You then are presented with usually on each dungeon 3 different choices to solve a problem, and this then gives you a different branch of content to do that is different than the other choices and different than the story mode. Then, while in the dungeon you have the chance to trigger a dynamic event which can further change your experience in the dungeon.
Anyways, with 8 dungeons being in the game, and with each having a story mode then around 3 branches for exploration mode, Jeff Grubb described it as being the equivalent of the game having 32 dungeons in place.
I liked what you said just up untill that very last paragraph 8 dungeons for how many levels? What's max lvl in gw2? And although it does sound dynamic and you're experience will probably differ from time to time, I dont suppose the dungeon will visually look any different? However, 8 dungeons is still quite a few more dungeons than other games have launched with. Let's just hope they settle with 8 for an extended period of time.
With reading over the people who actually played the different versions. They are visually different in that you are actually going through different places in the dungeon you didn't go before. The way it is explained is it's as if you are running a new dungeon. Also, they will be much more difficult, so it will be jam packed with content. This truly does make it as if there are 32 dungeons in the game. So I wouldn't focus so much on the number 8, because you will have your story mode, and then your different branches, it will be a lot. Also, the first dungeon is done at lvl. 35, and there are 80 levels. But, just like Dynamic Events, I believe that when you go back to do a dungeon as a higher level char you are scaled down so that it still kicks your butt .
To expand upon what Meowhead said, it won't just be different spawns. The situation will change, the problem you're facing will change, the mechanics will change, it will be a completely different experience when taking a different branch.
Actually you can chase the Centaurs all the way back to their stronghold and kill their leader. Just saying.
Fully aware of that, but like I said, you can't follow through to genocide. That's why after a while, the centaurs pick a new leader and they set out all over again.
Right, was just clarifying for those who don't understand. You can go all the way back to their village, but you can't exterminate the bastards!
I understand all this, so my only real question regarding that situation is the length of time in between, from when you destroy the centaur stronghold to the time when the centaurs say, "Hey lets make THAT guy leader!".
If theres enough lag time between the defeat and the return of the centaurs, it shouldn't be a big deal.
I envision larger chains working in a way that you may likely notice substantial changes, but I also see much smaller chains repeating frequently. Its not that I think DEs will always be the same, I'm trying to dispel the idea that everything will always be different. Perhaps the centaurs return in a month, maybe then it won't be such an issue, maybe they return in an hour. Who really knows at this point.
As I said my opinions can change, but right now, this is where I'm at.
They said there is no time set upon which they will return or it will cycle through. It will all be based on players doing certain things with different events and upon which phase they leave it or push it back to. There is no set time for the cycling. Also, look at what Meowhead said above. We all know that it won't always be different, we have been saying this over and over again. Your first argument was that it is still static with a little bit of Dynamic features. Which isn't true, what we are trying to say is that it is Dynamic however, because of the state of programming and limitations of content creators and funds, that it is finite and you will eventually see the same branches.
But according to Colin, even when experiencing the same branch, it could be different because of different events affecting each other. However, once you play enough of course you will run through all variations, but that is what expansions are for in the future! You cannot deny though that this a step towards the future on how we experience content in games.
Well, actually I said that the events are still static based on zone, thats correct from what I've read , you won't find events going across zone boundaries AFAIK..... I also said when events repeat is in the same area, AFAIK thats correct too, meaning the same towns would be affected, etc.
While the presentation is a step forward, I think there are other ways content and choice are being moved forward as well in the genre. Each new game I'm looking forward to brings something I think the genre needs. SWTOR, GW2, TSW, and FIreFall. That doesn't mean I like everything about each of those games though.
Well, actually I said that the events are still static based on zone, thats correct from what I've read , you won't find events going across zone boundaries AFAIK..... I also said when events repeat is in the same area, AFAIK thats correct too, meaning the same towns would be affected, etc.
While the presentation is a step forward, I think there are other ways content and choice are being moved forward as well in the genre. Each new game I'm looking forward to brings something I think the genre needs. SWTOR, GW2, TSW, and FIreFall. That doesn't mean I like everything about each of those games though.
Interestingly enough, some things overlap.
Like SW:ToR and GW2 are both concentrating on personal branching stories and large amounts of voice acting.
... or as I like to put it 'GW2. The MMORPG with the most voice acting that isn't called SW:ToR'
In fact, even some parts of the combat overlap, though different design decisions were chosen. Whether it's RIFT, SW:ToR, GW2, DCUO or TERA, they're all trying to deal with the trinity in their own ways.
Apparently some master document was sent down to all the MMORPG makers saying 'The holy trinity system? Work on that.'
So you have people subverting it in all sorts of ways, with what will of course be varying levels of success.
Actually you can chase the Centaurs all the way back to their stronghold and kill their leader. Just saying.
Fully aware of that, but like I said, you can't follow through to genocide. That's why after a while, the centaurs pick a new leader and they set out all over again.
Right, was just clarifying for those who don't understand. You can go all the way back to their village, but you can't exterminate the bastards!
I understand all this, so my only real question regarding that situation is the length of time in between, from when you destroy the centaur stronghold to the time when the centaurs say, "Hey lets make THAT guy leader!".
If theres enough lag time between the defeat and the return of the centaurs, it shouldn't be a big deal.
I envision larger chains working in a way that you may likely notice substantial changes, but I also see much smaller chains repeating frequently. Its not that I think DEs will always be the same, I'm trying to dispel the idea that everything will always be different. Perhaps the centaurs return in a month, maybe then it won't be such an issue, maybe they return in an hour. Who really knows at this point.
As I said my opinions can change, but right now, this is where I'm at.
They said there is no time set upon which they will return or it will cycle through. It will all be based on players doing certain things with different events and upon which phase they leave it or push it back to. There is no set time for the cycling. Also, look at what Meowhead said above. We all know that it won't always be different, we have been saying this over and over again. Your first argument was that it is still static with a little bit of Dynamic features. Which isn't true, what we are trying to say is that it is Dynamic however, because of the state of programming and limitations of content creators and funds, that it is finite and you will eventually see the same branches.
But according to Colin, even when experiencing the same branch, it could be different because of different events affecting each other. However, once you play enough of course you will run through all variations, but that is what expansions are for in the future! You cannot deny though that this a step towards the future on how we experience content in games.
Well, actually I said that the events are still static based on zone, thats correct from what I've read , you won't find events going across zone boundaries AFAIK..... I also said when events repeat is in the same area, AFAIK thats correct too, meaning the same towns would be affected, etc.
While the presentation is a step forward, I think there are other ways content and choice are being moved forward as well in the genre. Each new game I'm looking forward to brings something I think the genre needs. SWTOR, GW2, TSW, and FIreFall. That doesn't mean I like everything about each of those games though.
So you want the content in games to stay in complete static form, because it is not technologically possible right now for a gaming studio to truly make a world constantly changing with AI that launches attacks on places because of their own developed thought patterns?....
Also, there are very big chains I believe that will span out of zone, and even if they don't the term static based on zone makes no sense. Just because it is confined to a zone doesn't mean it is static.. Just because a river flows through a certain area doesn't mean it's static, just because human life and motion on Earth is confined to mostly Earth doesn't make it static.
They will be changing always, although the content is finite which will result in an eventual cycle, however since they are always changing it takes on the definition of dynamic, and is no longer static.
IMO then DE is not as impressive as phasing in WOW. At least in Wow when the world changed through questing it was permanent.
... and hey, personal story in GW2, the change is permanent too.
GW2 has BOTH types of content. Personal story and dynamic events.
... but at least a dynamic event is a real change that everybody else can see, even if the change is impermanent (Oddly enough, just like RL. You go arrest some gang members? Oddly enough, new gang members come along and do crimes. IT'S CRAZY.). So it has that advantage over phasing.
Oh, and you can prefer phasing, but so far as programming goes, it's nowhere near as impressive as the work needed to be put into dynamic events.
IMO then DE is not as impressive as phasing in WOW. At least in Wow when the world changed through questing it was permanent.
That is completely ignorant. The whole point to phasing would knock out content... Dynamic Events are to be enjoyed thus you might have a favorite Dynamic Event you want to do again in the future. Also, Dynamic Events aren't as specific as Quest Phasing in WoW, they are this entity rising up to destroy this place, of course after you defeat them they may return again in the future. Why would you not want them to? Also, it is permanent in a sense that when you vanquish their leader that in the future they will rally under another one.. I don't get how you can back track and say WoW phasing is more impressive.
I have to say that I share many of the concerns that the OP does.....as well as being worried about the lack of the trinity and defined roles. I actually like playing a role as I normally play a healer. I enjoy the fact that I play my class well and I am known on my server as a "good" healer...... If every one can heal, rez, and tank then I am not sure how grouping will work and how this will affect the community. It seems to me that group content would turn into more of a zerg........ But then again I haven't tried it so I will have to wait and see. I am looking forward to trying it as well as SWTOR.
The other concern I have is the paying for dungeons that was talked about last fall. I am not sure how this will work out, but if specific loot or items dropped only in that dungeon then that would make it one step away from a pay to win model in a cash shop. I really hope this won't be the case. I would rather pay for expansions than have something like this.
The other concern I have is the paying for dungeons that was talked about last fall. I am not sure how this will work out, but if specific loot or items dropped only in that dungeon then that would make it one step away from a pay to win model in a cash shop. I really hope this won't be the case. I would rather pay for expansions than have something like this.
They never said you will be paying for dungeons. That was merely a miscommunication between the article of the author and the dev.
I have to say that I share many of the concerns that the OP does.....as well asbeing worried about the lack of the trinity and defined roles. I actually like playing a role as I normally play a healer. I enjoy the fact that I play my class well and I am known on my server as a "good" healer...... If every one can heal, rez, and tank then I am not sure how grouping will work and how this will affect the community. It seems to me that group content would turn into more of a zerg........ But then again I haven't tried it so I will have to wait and see. I am looking forward to trying it as well as SWTOR.
The other concern I have is the paying for dungeons that was talked about last fall. I am not sure how this will work out, but if specific loot or items dropped only in that dungeon then that would make it one step away from a pay to win model in a cash shop. I really hope this won't be the case. I would rather pay for expansions than have something like this.
So far as the dungeons go, they haven't decided whether they want to make additional dungeons microtransactions. Even if they WERE, you wouldn't get better equipment. You'd get different looking equipment.
This isn't WoW, with a gear score, and lots of gear advancement based off of large amounts of raiding...
GW2 (Like GW1) has a max level for equipment, and multiple ways to reach it.
So... yeah. Even if they did lock off new dungeons as microtransactions, what you would be missing is new armor/weapon skins.
The actual stats won't be better, so there's no P2W in there. P2F (Pay to Fashion) yes.
Now, talking about the combat... of course people will be able to zerg. The question is will the zerg be effective in higher level content. If well designed, then no.
It's all up to the game design. You could make a trinity system that can be beaten with basic zerging tactics too, you know.
If you can't think of a way to stop zerging without the holy trinity, then I'm afraid that you should probably quit your job as a game designer, because you're not suited for it.
Originally posted by Nazgol IMO then DE is not as impressive as phasing in WOW. At least in Wow when the world changed through questing it was permanent.
The purpose of DE's is to deliver engaging content in an open-world, social, manner. Phasing would negate this entirely because you could not join in on someone's phased content unless you, too, had completed the requisite quest in the chain. DE's are specifically intended to make that scenario obsolete.
I have to say that I share many of the concerns that the OP does.....as well as being worried about the lack of the trinity and defined roles. I actually like playing a role as I normally play a healer. I enjoy the fact that I play my class well and I am known on my server as a "good" healer...... If every one can heal, rez, and tank then I am not sure how grouping will work and how this will affect the community. It seems to me that group content would turn into more of a zerg........ But then again I haven't tried it so I will have to wait and see. I am looking forward to trying it as well as SWTOR.
The other concern I have is the paying for dungeons that was talked about last fall. I am not sure how this will work out, but if specific loot or items dropped only in that dungeon then that would make it one step away from a pay to win model in a cash shop. I really hope this won't be the case. I would rather pay for expansions than have something like this.
You will find your place in GW2 as a support player. I too always play as a healer, but I welcome GW2 with open arms. While all classes may have some ways of supporting their team, not all will have the support say a Guardian does. Is it needed to succeed? No.. But, you can definitely support the crap out of people with a Guardian, or a Necro, Elementalist, Engineer. So on and so forth. But it is about how well you play your class as a whole and mesh with your group. Group play is actually made stronger with this style, you have to coordinate with positioning, know when to fall back, know when to step in that line of fire for your ally for a brief second so he can get back to get a heal. It is highly strategic, rather than being based on a meatshield soaking up all dmg. while a healer pushes his health bar up.
Also, there will be no pay to win in GW2, and they always stress this. One mistake people make is that they call GW and GW2 F2P. It is not F2P!! It is B2P and there is a huge difference. The game will make its money off of box sales, expansions, and purely cosmetic items such as pets or clothing, but never gear that provides an advantage. You get the whole game whenever you buy it.
I hope you are right. I really do. I just think that without that defined role it some how makes you less special or less necessary. I like being the healer that kept the tank alive through the encounter or saved the group or raid from a wipe. I just think those moments may be lost with the lack of truly defined roles. Don't get me wrong..... I do see lots of positives, but since this is a post about concerns or possible dislikes, I was just simply stating some of the things that I am personnaly doubting or worrying about.
I hope you are right. I really do. I just think that without that defined role it some how makes you less special or less necessary. I like being the healer that kept the tank alive through the encounter or saved the group or raid from a wipe. I just think those moments may be lost with the lack of truly defined roles. Don't get me wrong..... I do see lots of positives, but since this is a post about concerns or possible dislikes, I was just simply stating some of the things that I am personnaly doubting or worrying about.
The problem with having healers and tanks is that they are the only ones with those kinds of moments. Everyone else is expendable.
In GW2, anyone can have that kind of moment since actual teamwork is required.
Comments
I understand all this, so my only real question regarding that situation is the length of time in between, from when you destroy the centaur stronghold to the time when the centaurs say, "Hey lets make THAT guy leader!".
If theres enough lag time between the defeat and the return of the centaurs, it shouldn't be a big deal.
I envision larger chains working in a way that you may likely notice substantial changes, but I also see much smaller chains repeating frequently. Its not that I think DEs will always be the same, I'm trying to dispel the idea that everything will always be different. Perhaps the centaurs return in a month, maybe then it won't be such an issue, maybe they return in an hour. Who really knows at this point.
As I said my opinions can change, but right now, this is where I'm at.
Yes, you are correct, you cannot target your teammates. You can put down a ground-targed AOE that they would have to be aware of and stand inside in order to reap benefits, as an example. Healing Rain (for elementalists), a Healing Turret for engineers, a War Banner for a Warrior to give a buff, etc. etc.
You should read some of the reports of fans who played the dungeon content on ArenaNet Fan Day last Friday, linked elsewhere on these forums. For your challenging, *must coordinate or die* content, dungeons (specifically in explorable mode) are where it's at.
According to write-ups of the Fanday that was happened last friday, every group ran the same dungeon with different set-up (one group consisted of 4 elementalists and an engineer) and finished almost the same time. Every group also ended up wiping several times. When they tried to do one of the explorable modes of the dungeon only 1 group besides one of the developer groups was able to finish it.
Yes, and as far as difficulty of content the dungeons have different modes. You have story mode which is the basic mode of the dungeon which tells the story of it and is like DDO's normal mode. Then you have Exploration Mode which Colin said is for your people who like raiding and like real challenges. You then are presented with usually on each dungeon 3 different choices to solve a problem, and this then gives you a different branch of content to do that is different than the other choices and different than the story mode. Then, while in the dungeon you have the chance to trigger a dynamic event which can further change your experience in the dungeon.
Anyways, with 8 dungeons being in the game, and with each having a story mode then around 3 branches for exploration mode, Jeff Grubb described it as being the equivalent of the game having 32 dungeons in place.
Yeah, no player targeting. That means it requires a lot of situational awareness on both party's parts.
The supporter has to go 'Oh, they are over here, I should put a support over there', and the people who need support need to realize 'Oh, something has been done, I need to take advantage of it'.
So far as challenge.... it seems much of the dynamic events and the story mode dungeons won't be too amazingly challenging...
... but there are supposed to be some later dynamic events that are specifically difficult... and explorable mode in dungeons is supposed to be a hard challenge to a well organized team, not something you can just do with your average PUG.
Of course, for a REAL challenge, PvP is probably one of the best places to get that. In that, you can only get as far as you're good, and other players will keep you on your toes.
MAGICAL LORE SPRINKLES.
(cough)
Of course they won't always be different. I'm not going to go back through all those pages, but everybody who has responded to you recently seems fully aware of that.
I would like to point out that the content you're LESS likely to see is the 'oh no, everything went bad' content, at least tin the beginning. WIth so many people running around, how often will the centaurs conquer multiple villages and get to the bad end of the chain?
THough it would be fun to visit a server with low population after say... an internet outage. Some sort of post-apocalyptic GW2 wasteland with every single bad ending, all the towns except the main cities taken over.
If I wanted a fully dynamic RPG with constantly changing content, I'd go do some P&P gaming. That's the only place you're going to find it, sorry.
I can't even think of a single player CRPG that remotely delivers on that. To be honest, upon further reflection, I find it disingenuous and weird that you'd even have that in your list of things you don't like.
I don't like that in SW:ToR George Lucas doesn't come over to my house and give me large wads of cash then shine my shoes, but I would never bother sticking it in a list of things I dislike about SW:ToR. (Technically, this is actually more possible than truly dynamic dynamic events, since George Lucas IS a person with lots of money, and one would assume some rudimentary shoe shining skills, but no gaming company has the programming manpower or budget to create that much truly dynamic content)
Shouldn't you only put things in that are remotely feasible?
They said there is no time set upon which they will return or it will cycle through. It will all be based on players doing certain things with different events and upon which phase they leave it or push it back to. There is no set time for the cycling. Also, look at what Meowhead said above. We all know that it won't always be different, we have been saying this over and over again. Your first argument was that it is still static with a little bit of Dynamic features. Which isn't true, what we are trying to say is that it is Dynamic however, because of the state of programming and limitations of content creators and funds, that it is finite and you will eventually see the same branches.
But according to Colin, even when experiencing the same branch, it could be different because of different events affecting each other. However, once you play enough of course you will run through all variations, but that is what expansions are for in the future! You cannot deny though that this a step towards the future on how we experience content in games.
I liked what you said just up untill that very last paragraph
8 dungeons for how many levels? What's max lvl in gw2? And although it does sound dynamic and you're experience will probably differ from time to time, I dont suppose the dungeon will visually look any different? However, 8 dungeons is still quite a few more dungeons than other games have launched with. Let's just hope they settle with 8 for an extended period of time.
Well, your'e suppoed to go into different parts of the dungeon, see different monster spawns (Like in the first dungeon, it's only ghosts the first time, then it's some other monsters) and fight different bosses.
So... visually different in some ways, though of course the dungeon theme will remain.
... and 8 dungeons for 80 levels. One starting at 35, and 1 for every 10 levels after (With a couple extra max level dungeons)
The nice thing is, since the game automatically reverse sidekicks you when you go to lower level areas, you can repeat older dungeons at high levels, and they can still be challenging.
... EXTRA challenging if you really need the thrill and just drop a party member or two. :> (Something the Arenanet people said they would try for an extra challenge)
With reading over the people who actually played the different versions. They are visually different in that you are actually going through different places in the dungeon you didn't go before. The way it is explained is it's as if you are running a new dungeon. Also, they will be much more difficult, so it will be jam packed with content. This truly does make it as if there are 32 dungeons in the game. So I wouldn't focus so much on the number 8, because you will have your story mode, and then your different branches, it will be a lot. Also, the first dungeon is done at lvl. 35, and there are 80 levels. But, just like Dynamic Events, I believe that when you go back to do a dungeon as a higher level char you are scaled down so that it still kicks your butt
.
To expand upon what Meowhead said, it won't just be different spawns. The situation will change, the problem you're facing will change, the mechanics will change, it will be a completely different experience when taking a different branch.
Well, actually I said that the events are still static based on zone, thats correct from what I've read , you won't find events going across zone boundaries AFAIK..... I also said when events repeat is in the same area, AFAIK thats correct too, meaning the same towns would be affected, etc.
While the presentation is a step forward, I think there are other ways content and choice are being moved forward as well in the genre. Each new game I'm looking forward to brings something I think the genre needs. SWTOR, GW2, TSW, and FIreFall. That doesn't mean I like everything about each of those games though.
Interestingly enough, some things overlap.
Like SW:ToR and GW2 are both concentrating on personal branching stories and large amounts of voice acting.
... or as I like to put it 'GW2. The MMORPG with the most voice acting that isn't called SW:ToR'
In fact, even some parts of the combat overlap, though different design decisions were chosen. Whether it's RIFT, SW:ToR, GW2, DCUO or TERA, they're all trying to deal with the trinity in their own ways.
Apparently some master document was sent down to all the MMORPG makers saying 'The holy trinity system? Work on that.'
So you have people subverting it in all sorts of ways, with what will of course be varying levels of success.
So you want the content in games to stay in complete static form, because it is not technologically possible right now for a gaming studio to truly make a world constantly changing with AI that launches attacks on places because of their own developed thought patterns?....
Also, there are very big chains I believe that will span out of zone, and even if they don't the term static based on zone makes no sense. Just because it is confined to a zone doesn't mean it is static.. Just because a river flows through a certain area doesn't mean it's static, just because human life and motion on Earth is confined to mostly Earth doesn't make it static.
They will be changing always, although the content is finite which will result in an eventual cycle, however since they are always changing it takes on the definition of dynamic, and is no longer static.
IMO then DE is not as impressive as phasing in WOW. At least in Wow when the world changed through questing it was permanent.
In Bioware we trust!
But.. but.. that would mean... no more monsters??
... and hey, personal story in GW2, the change is permanent too.
GW2 has BOTH types of content. Personal story and dynamic events.
... but at least a dynamic event is a real change that everybody else can see, even if the change is impermanent (Oddly enough, just like RL. You go arrest some gang members? Oddly enough, new gang members come along and do crimes. IT'S CRAZY.). So it has that advantage over phasing.
Oh, and you can prefer phasing, but so far as programming goes, it's nowhere near as impressive as the work needed to be put into dynamic events.
That is completely ignorant. The whole point to phasing would knock out content... Dynamic Events are to be enjoyed thus you might have a favorite Dynamic Event you want to do again in the future. Also, Dynamic Events aren't as specific as Quest Phasing in WoW, they are this entity rising up to destroy this place, of course after you defeat them they may return again in the future. Why would you not want them to? Also, it is permanent in a sense that when you vanquish their leader that in the future they will rally under another one.. I don't get how you can back track and say WoW phasing is more impressive.
Hey I just killed Zhaitan guys, did you see it did you see it?!?!
Ummm.. No..? He's still standing right there, you don't see him??
Really impressive.
I have to say that I share many of the concerns that the OP does.....as well as being worried about the lack of the trinity and defined roles. I actually like playing a role as I normally play a healer. I enjoy the fact that I play my class well and I am known on my server as a "good" healer...... If every one can heal, rez, and tank then I am not sure how grouping will work and how this will affect the community. It seems to me that group content would turn into more of a zerg........ But then again I haven't tried it so I will have to wait and see. I am looking forward to trying it as well as SWTOR.
The other concern I have is the paying for dungeons that was talked about last fall. I am not sure how this will work out, but if specific loot or items dropped only in that dungeon then that would make it one step away from a pay to win model in a cash shop. I really hope this won't be the case. I would rather pay for expansions than have something like this.
They never said you will be paying for dungeons. That was merely a miscommunication between the article of the author and the dev.
So far as the dungeons go, they haven't decided whether they want to make additional dungeons microtransactions. Even if they WERE, you wouldn't get better equipment. You'd get different looking equipment.
This isn't WoW, with a gear score, and lots of gear advancement based off of large amounts of raiding...
GW2 (Like GW1) has a max level for equipment, and multiple ways to reach it.
So... yeah. Even if they did lock off new dungeons as microtransactions, what you would be missing is new armor/weapon skins.
The actual stats won't be better, so there's no P2W in there. P2F (Pay to Fashion) yes.
Now, talking about the combat... of course people will be able to zerg. The question is will the zerg be effective in higher level content. If well designed, then no.
It's all up to the game design. You could make a trinity system that can be beaten with basic zerging tactics too, you know.
If you can't think of a way to stop zerging without the holy trinity, then I'm afraid that you should probably quit your job as a game designer, because you're not suited for it.
The purpose of DE's is to deliver engaging content in an open-world, social, manner. Phasing would negate this entirely because you could not join in on someone's phased content unless you, too, had completed the requisite quest in the chain. DE's are specifically intended to make that scenario obsolete.
You will find your place in GW2 as a support player. I too always play as a healer, but I welcome GW2 with open arms. While all classes may have some ways of supporting their team, not all will have the support say a Guardian does. Is it needed to succeed? No.. But, you can definitely support the crap out of people with a Guardian, or a Necro, Elementalist, Engineer. So on and so forth. But it is about how well you play your class as a whole and mesh with your group. Group play is actually made stronger with this style, you have to coordinate with positioning, know when to fall back, know when to step in that line of fire for your ally for a brief second so he can get back to get a heal. It is highly strategic, rather than being based on a meatshield soaking up all dmg. while a healer pushes his health bar up.
Also, there will be no pay to win in GW2, and they always stress this. One mistake people make is that they call GW and GW2 F2P. It is not F2P!! It is B2P and there is a huge difference. The game will make its money off of box sales, expansions, and purely cosmetic items such as pets or clothing, but never gear that provides an advantage. You get the whole game whenever you buy it.
I hope you are right. I really do. I just think that without that defined role it some how makes you less special or less necessary. I like being the healer that kept the tank alive through the encounter or saved the group or raid from a wipe. I just think those moments may be lost with the lack of truly defined roles. Don't get me wrong..... I do see lots of positives, but since this is a post about concerns or possible dislikes, I was just simply stating some of the things that I am personnaly doubting or worrying about.
The problem with having healers and tanks is that they are the only ones with those kinds of moments. Everyone else is expendable.
In GW2, anyone can have that kind of moment since actual teamwork is required.