Pretty late to this discussion but speaking for myself what I hate about raid content (not that I hate it altogether) is that it basically becomes the only end game content.
Offering 10 man versions doesnt help. Offering 25 man versions doesn't help ... doesn't help me at least.
For me the purpose of an MMO is to carve out the story of a hero. A hero doesn't wuss out and not do the hard content.
I think with anything, especially on forums like this .. there is going to be reaction, and usually over-reaction to any news about anything. We are now in the 10s of millions of people. To expect them not to have differing opinions .. won't work essentially.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
It's a risk vs. reward thing. You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you? As for the value of the gear? They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.
Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?
The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.
So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?
I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do. It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game. Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.
Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game. Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?
No matter how logical your arguments, you cannot convice people who feel entitled and truly believe they deserve superior gear to prove that they're better gamers than everyone else.
Pretty late to this discussion but speaking for myself what I hate about raid content (not that I hate it altogether) is that it basically becomes the only end game content.
Offering 10 man versions doesnt help. Offering 25 man versions doesn't help ... doesn't help me at least.
For me the purpose of an MMO is to carve out the story of a hero. A hero doesn't wuss out and not do the hard content. When the "hero" has a medical condition where "hero" needs to use the bathroom sometimes every 30 minutes, then it becomes a problem for the "hero" to do the "hard content".
*does flex emotes in front of AH*
I think with anything, especially on forums like this .. there is going to be reaction, and usually over-reaction to any news about anything. We are now in the 10s of millions of people. To expect them not to have differing opinions .. won't work essentially.
Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....
YOU WIPE.
Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.
By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.
He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.
Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.
That's why I hate raiding.
If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).
Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.
If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.
This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.
Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....
YOU WIPE.
Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.
By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.
He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.
Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.
That's why I hate raiding.
If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).
Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.
If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.
This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.
Well, thats pretty much SOP for raiding. But I'm not interested in a second job. I've done 40 man raids (WAY too many times through MC) and at this point I'm not at all interested in raiding. Doing the same raid over and over and over, in the faint hope of up grading my gear, so I can do the next raid over and over, isn't really appealing to me at this point. But some people find it entertaining, to each their own <shrug>.
But given the broken dynamics of most end games, raiding is pretty much all that can be expected at this point in MMO's evolution. Hopefully that will change over time.
Well, thats pretty much SOP for raiding. But I'm not interested in a second job. I've done 40 man raids (WAY too many times through MC) and at this point I'm not at all interested in raiding. Doing the same raid over and over and over, in the faint hope of up grading my gear, so I can do the next raid over and over, isn't really appealing to me at this point. But some people find it entertaining, to each their own .
But given the broken dynamics of most end games, raiding is pretty much all that can be expected at this point in MMO's evolution. Hopefully that will change over time.
Yep, pretty much. The thing with us though, we arn't always deadly serious with things, and it's the spontaneous, silly times that make the rest of the time worth it . Though I really do enjoy raiding for the activity itself (I'm one that doesn't get bored trying to always improve my performance, which is a totally seperate thing from gear upgrades), and not looking at it strictly as what lootz can I haz. Upgrades are nice, but even more fun are nights when the warrior just can't beat the elevator boss no matter what, and then we get started on the drinking game whenever a certain person gets blown off Al'akir's platform lol. Finishing the raid kinda becomes secondary to a group of people just having fun and enjoying each other's company .
Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....
YOU WIPE.
Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.
By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.
He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.
Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.
That's why I hate raiding.
If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).
Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.
If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.
This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.
i only care to do raids once or twice after that its boring to me.unless of course i get with a group of friends and we just drink and have fun messing up and joking. I do just fine with whatever armor and weapons i can find. I play to splore do some lite RP and just have some crazy fun=)
Comments
Pretty late to this discussion but speaking for myself what I hate about raid content (not that I hate it altogether) is that it basically becomes the only end game content.
Offering 10 man versions doesnt help. Offering 25 man versions doesn't help ... doesn't help me at least.
For me the purpose of an MMO is to carve out the story of a hero. A hero doesn't wuss out and not do the hard content.
I think with anything, especially on forums like this .. there is going to be reaction, and usually over-reaction to any news about anything. We are now in the 10s of millions of people. To expect them not to have differing opinions .. won't work essentially.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
No matter how logical your arguments, you cannot convice people who feel entitled and truly believe they deserve superior gear to prove that they're better gamers than everyone else.
I remember the days of 72 man raids. They were awful.
If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).
Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.
If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.
This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.
Well, thats pretty much SOP for raiding. But I'm not interested in a second job. I've done 40 man raids (WAY too many times through MC) and at this point I'm not at all interested in raiding. Doing the same raid over and over and over, in the faint hope of up grading my gear, so I can do the next raid over and over, isn't really appealing to me at this point. But some people find it entertaining, to each their own <shrug>.
But given the broken dynamics of most end games, raiding is pretty much all that can be expected at this point in MMO's evolution. Hopefully that will change over time.
Yep, pretty much. The thing with us though, we arn't always deadly serious with things, and it's the spontaneous, silly times that make the rest of the time worth it
. Though I really do enjoy raiding for the activity itself (I'm one that doesn't get bored trying to always improve my performance, which is a totally seperate thing from gear upgrades), and not looking at it strictly as what lootz can I haz. Upgrades are nice, but even more fun are nights when the warrior just can't beat the elevator boss no matter what, and then we get started on the drinking game whenever a certain person gets blown off Al'akir's platform lol. Finishing the raid kinda becomes secondary to a group of people just having fun and enjoying each other's company 
.
So what did they do wrong, in Donkey Kong Deluxe?
i only care to do raids once or twice after that its boring to me.unless of course i get with a group of friends and we just drink and have fun messing up and joking. I do just fine with whatever armor and weapons i can find. I play to splore do some lite RP and just have some crazy fun=)