Raiders love the challenge that comes with taking down a boss, but more that that, they enjoy having the best gear that comes from doing raid content. Most players raid until they get their set, and then have no interest whatsoever of running it anymore. If the raid itself were enjoyable, it should be fun regardless of needing the gear or not.
There should always be different options of obtaining gear, since in the end, everyone just wants to have the best stuff. Let people choose their own most enjoyable way of obtaining it.
You've just described Guild Wars, and the Guild Wars 2 model. So, look to Guild Wars's financial success and the faith that NCSoft/ArenaNet has in Guild Wars 2 to manage to succeed with the same model.
(note that in Guild Wars 2 there IS the ability through the so-called "leveling game" to increase gear stats, but there is an eventual plateau of power where you essentially start trading +2 WIS, as an example, for +1 to INT and +1 to CON, or something. Eventually the gear you get is for appearance's sake and not to statistically improve your character.)
well, to bring it back to context, I was refering to full fledged raiding oriented MMO. I dont believe guildwars can be classified as such...
Raiding quickly became a second job. Way to many HAVE to do's for what is supposed to be my leasure time. All that stress and bullshit and not a dime in my bank account to show for it. No thanks.
I like what GW2 is proposing.
completely agree in the sentiment. a raiding oriented game is NOT for everyone. it's a very specific niche of player types that enjoys the "torture" of large scale raids:D it's like people who ENJOY marathons, it's not for everyone, but for those who enjoys a challange, it's THEIR cup of tea. same thing can be said about BASE jumpers, most people think they are nuts. but for adrenaline junkies, it's the only way to "almost die":D
Having to schedule your life around a game is bad.
This, it can eat into your life's time, many raids take waaaaaaaaay too long, I was in one that took over 6 freaking hours and I said never again!
THIS.
I don't raid anymore. Did it in the past, won't do it again, and it's because of the insane time commitment that being in a raiding guild or a raid group requires. I'd rather hop into a game, play with my friends or do some solo quests or crafting or whatever for a few hours, then log off. Raiding is too rigid and time consuming for me.
Plus, I think it's boring. By the time I get to whatever raids are in a game, they've been beaten so many times there's a generic script to follow to beat the encounter, and that's the only one people ever follow. I end up having to deal with someone gving out commands for however long a raid is, and being really anal retentive about it. No thanks. The only people who get to give me orders and tell me how to do something are my employers and my grad school professors, not some guy in a raid.
I don't understand the OP, though. Raids are still insanely popular. They're not to my taste, but plenty of people out there disagree.
FIrst of all, I'm a casual (who can raid whenever he wants) in one of the best European PvE guilds in WoW and yet, I never do...
My main issues with raiding:
1. Time consuming, I rarely have 4 hours of nonstop play time at the evening to burn on wow anymore.
2. How unfriendly they are to afking and having to take breaks (especially on HC). The mechanics are pretty much forcing all the members to say there staring at their screens for HOURS. My guild does 2-3 hour sessions, takes a 5-10 minute break and goes on. I have more free time at work than this...
3. How dependant they are on voice communication. When I get back home from work, the last thing I want to is to stay in a voice chat with 40 people and listen to their commands. Would much rather listen to music or even in game sounds (I don't mind a game heavily depending on listening to enviromental sounds, like you have to in Darkfall if you want to know that somebody is sneaking up on your ass to loot your soon dead tush). I wish raids were more like killing Bhaal was in D2LOD...
4. Heaving to read up and learn the mechanics before. I might be all old school and somewhat lazy but I really am not enjoying to STUDY each boss and his every move to be able to compete at any level. It's just not my definition of fun (yet, again, I don't see my guildies complaining about this). I know that my good friend who had to lead the first raid in Firelands sat a whole day learning each boss mechanics. Where are the times where bosses used to have random abilities and actually surprize the player? Right now it feels more like choreographic dancing of 40 people who keep repeating the same dance over and over and over again...
Well, there are more. But the main problem is really easy: "It's just not fun". And isn't that the only thing that matters in a game? All I do in WoW is pvp now *sigh*
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world." Hans Margolius
Sure, a lot of times raiding is great if you can find a good group of people to do it with, and sometimes I have and sometimes I haven't. That's the issue though. Raiding is too dependant on what sort of guild you have and sheer luck over the particular time you become raid ready.
that is the main problems hardcore raiders run into. it's an exclusionary "club" just like top gun or navy seal, or delta force:D not everyone wants to be in a raiding oriented game, they neither have the inclination nor enjoy that type of gaming. the niche of hardcore raiding game is too big of a risk for game publishers to invest in. most people wouldnt want to put in the time for a hardcore raiding oriented game. and, there really isnt much "entrance exam" you can take to see if you "qualify" for hardcore raiding. as most people mentioned, it IS like a 2nd job, however, it's what the raiders enjoy.
Raiding is a full time job. I found it stressful, repetitive, and boring. It's another gear grind so you can get ready to grind for the next gen gear. It's also taken far too seriously by people and they help make it even more unfun.
Because I'm a grown up and won't let a 16-year-old bully me around through a microphone.
i've raided with alot of 16 yr olds who are more mature and have better leadership skills then most 26 yr olds:D internet is more about attitude and states of mind. age really dont have too much to do with how internet works:D
it's like alot of the post WoW generation of gamers are actually adults. but they use the game as an excuse to act like arses
Raiding is a full time job. I found it stressful, repetitive, and boring. It's another gear grind so you can get ready to grind for the next gen gear. It's also taken far too seriously by people and they help make it even more unfun.
Raiding is a full time job. I found it stressful, repetitive, and boring. It's another gear grind so you can get ready to grind for the next gen gear. It's also taken far too seriously by people and they help make it even more unfun.
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?
Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
Where did you get this idea?
GW2 is a casual MMO, Raiding is not a Casual feature so it makes perfect sense it doesn't have it
I am not surprised GW2 audience cheered the news.
I am a Raider but I will play GW2 because to me it looks the perfect casual game, and it is ideal when I have my "casual" moments
Although generally my main interest are MMOs with a solid Raid culture (I am hoping EQ3 will fullfill my needs)
It's also taken far too seriously by people and they help make it even more unfun.
this is the main reason why hardcore raiders retire:D you may not like them, but they down right hate you:D it's unfortunate, because when it comes to HARD content, they force themselves to carry the heaviest loads. and when they retire, you end up with the under dressed unskilled noob who just want to leech and get phat lewtz as their replacement:D it's the domino effect that created the "post WoW generation" of MMOer's
It's also taken far too seriously by people and they help make it even more unfun.
this is the main reason why hardcore raiders retire:D you may not like them, but they down right hate you:D it's unfortunate, because when it comes to HARD content, they force themselves to carry the heaviest loads. and when they retire, you end up with the under dressed unskilled noob who just want to leech and get phat lewtz as their replacement:D it's the domino effect that created the "post WoW generation" of MMOer's
I might have my feelings hurt if I as a pvp'er didn't absolutely despise carebear gear heads.
For me, it's just a matter of time. I just don't normally have the time to do raids and I have PvP, so it would be nice if there was something else MMO's could do for end-game content but I have no idea what that would be and apparently neither do MMO developers :P
My take on why raiding has grown unpopular is due to the trend of over tuning raid encounters. I'm not saying that raiding shouldn't be challenging, but to me it seems that raiding has become too much of a rigid procedure than it is a fun passtime.
Most of the raids and their encounters are tuned for a specific set number of players, and then futher balanced around a specific combination of the trinity there of. Not only that, but a lot of the raid encounters are getting so gimmicky that you have to have the same core group of people every week or you risk backsliding on content.
As others have said, it's become too much of a job. There's only so many raid spots available, so getting your spot may mean playing a class or role you don't enjoy. Furthermore, keeping your spot means having to be there almost every schduled raid, or you risk losing your spot. If real life happens for one or more raid members, then you need to get people to fill in for them... which typically means you need to over recruit raid members. But then if no one is away, you don't have enough spots and people get irritated. Then there's all of the ridiculous meta-gamed loot rule systems that need to go in place to deal with the inevitable loot dispites that are borne from overly random and extremely limited drops.
Which is really why I don't get the current design philosophy of raids. It's almost as if the entire concept has been flipped around to do everything possible to make the game less fun to play. Organizing it is a pain. Feeling obligated to attend every single raid for risk of losing your spot or feel you're letting down or handicapping your raid by not being there. Loot is a pain to deal with, etc.
Sure, a challenge is nice. Steamrolling content is boring. But personally I'd prefer to play raid content that was challenging, but could still be doable with a few less, or a few more people. I'd like if I could raid one week with my friends, take a week off for real life, then come back again the week after without risking loss of my raid spot or having screwed over my raid group by not having been there. To be able to bring along those few extra friends whenever they wanted to come, without having to leave them out because they're considered 'overflow'.
Raiding use to be a lot more fun when it was more flexible.
I might have my feelings hurt if I as a pvp'er didn't absolutely despise carebear gear heads.
this is one of the things that always confused me. if pvp is your game, why waste time in a RPG? FPS is a much more enjoyable platform for pvp... there is no gear grind. no lvl grind. just pure pvp...
I'd like if I could raid one week with my friends, take a week off for real life, then come back again the week after without risking loss of my raid spot or having screwed over my raid group by not having been there. To be able to bring along those few extra friends whenever they wanted to come, without having to leave them out because they're considered 'overflow'.
Raiding use to be a lot more fun when it was more flexible.
actually this is where large scale raids shine. yes there are a few key components that you MUST have to raid. but there are also alot more people around to fill those components. you taking a week off for summer vacation isnt as detrimental to a 72 man raid as it would be for a 10 man raid. it's all about the numbers and large raids are far more flexible. its more constricting when it comes to the raw numbers that MUST show up, but it's more flexible as to WHO shows up.
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?
Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
Wouldn't want to speak for the community as a whole, but for myself raids are little more than a developer's cop out. As the so called endgame you would think that it would be something a litte more epic than spending a couple days a week doing the same instance over and over again all for the chance of getting a piece of virtual loot. Then, you get to spend at least half your offraid nights WORKING towards raid night. Not playing a game, but gathering resources for hours to craft things to try and give you an edge, not to mention having to grind for cash to pay for repairs if you have a bunch of drunkards and stoners in your guild lol.
My take on why raiding has grown unpopular is due to the trend of over tuning raid encounters. I'm not saying that raiding shouldn't be challenging, but to me it seems that raiding has become too much of a rigid procedure than it is a fun passtime.
Most of the raids and their encounters are tuned for a specific set number of players, and then futher balanced around a specific combination of the trinity there of. Not only that, but a lot of the raid encounters are getting so gimmicky that you have to have the same core group of people every week or you risk backsliding on content.
As others have said, it's become too much of a job. There's only so many raid spots available, so getting your spot may mean playing a class or role you don't enjoy. Furthermore, keeping your spot means having to be there almost every schduled raid, or you risk losing your spot. If real life happens for one or more raid members, then you need to get people to fill in for them... which typically means you need to over recruit raid members. But then if no one is away, you don't have enough spots and people get irritated. Then there's all of the ridiculous meta-gamed loot rule systems that need to go in place to deal with the inevitable loot dispites that are borne from overly random and extremely limited drops.
Which is really why I don't get the current design philosophy of raids. It's almost as if the entire concept has been flipped around to do everything possible to make the game less fun to play. Organizing it is a pain. Feeling obligated to attend every single raid for risk of losing your spot or feel you're letting down or handicapping your raid by not being there. Loot is a pain to deal with, etc.
Sure, a challenge is nice. Steamrolling content is boring. But personally I'd prefer to play raid content that was challenging, but could still be doable with a few less, or a few more people. I'd like if I could raid one week with my friends, take a week off for real life, then come back again the week after without risking loss of my raid spot or having screwed over my raid group by not having been there. To be able to bring along those few extra friends whenever they wanted to come, without having to leave them out because they're considered 'overflow'.
Raiding use to be a lot more fun when it was more flexible.
That's the thing. I never did much raiding in EQ, but I remember doing Nagefen and Vox as well as Saryn The Goddess of Torment from Planes of Power and a few other things here and there, yet I don't remember going into a single raid where I felt as if I personally had to memorize the fight mechanics before going in yet people always say EQ was so hard. WoW raiding seems to me as if it requires a lot more preparation.
It's almost as if the entire concept has been flipped around to do everything possible to make the game less fun to play.
Isn't that the definition of "hardcore"?
No no, that isn't a flame, because it really isn't true either. Out of the (many) guilds I've raided with, I've seen all different levels of "challenge" set as the goal of the raid leaders.
Some players find wipe-50-times-tuning to be the minimum level of challenge level they want to play at. They get a sense of achievement from being the first, being in the top 2%, or whatever yardstick they're using to measure their "leetness". That's what game competition ladders are all about; give me a number in relation to other players so that I can judge my skillz.
Other players have their raid challenge level set so low that even the weakest players in the raid could easily handle their simple assigned tasks, while watching television and talking on the phone.
And everything in between, literally a huge range of play styles and comfort zones.
The easiest answer is that "fun" is incredibly relative to individual players. What frustrates Bill to tears is yawningly easy for John, and they both want the challenge to be adjusted to their individual levels. Bill wouldn't play John's game for even an hour, and vice-versa.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Raiders love the challenge that comes with taking down a boss, but more that that, they enjoy having the best gear that comes from doing raid content. Most players raid until they get their set, and then have no interest whatsoever of running it anymore. If the raid itself were enjoyable, it should be fun regardless of needing the gear or not.
There should always be different options of obtaining gear, since in the end, everyone just wants to have the best stuff. Let people choose their own most enjoyable way of obtaining it.
well, to bring it back to context, I was refering to full fledged raiding oriented MMO. I dont believe guildwars can be classified as such...
completely agree in the sentiment. a raiding oriented game is NOT for everyone. it's a very specific niche of player types that enjoys the "torture" of large scale raids:D it's like people who ENJOY marathons, it's not for everyone, but for those who enjoys a challange, it's THEIR cup of tea. same thing can be said about BASE jumpers, most people think they are nuts. but for adrenaline junkies, it's the only way to "almost die":D
i wonder how many hours are wasted in a human lifetime in the persue of sexual pleasures:D
THIS.
I don't raid anymore. Did it in the past, won't do it again, and it's because of the insane time commitment that being in a raiding guild or a raid group requires. I'd rather hop into a game, play with my friends or do some solo quests or crafting or whatever for a few hours, then log off. Raiding is too rigid and time consuming for me.
Plus, I think it's boring. By the time I get to whatever raids are in a game, they've been beaten so many times there's a generic script to follow to beat the encounter, and that's the only one people ever follow. I end up having to deal with someone gving out commands for however long a raid is, and being really anal retentive about it. No thanks. The only people who get to give me orders and tell me how to do something are my employers and my grad school professors, not some guy in a raid.
I don't understand the OP, though. Raids are still insanely popular. They're not to my taste, but plenty of people out there disagree.
FIrst of all, I'm a casual (who can raid whenever he wants) in one of the best European PvE guilds in WoW and yet, I never do...
My main issues with raiding:
1. Time consuming, I rarely have 4 hours of nonstop play time at the evening to burn on wow anymore.
2. How unfriendly they are to afking and having to take breaks (especially on HC). The mechanics are pretty much forcing all the members to say there staring at their screens for HOURS. My guild does 2-3 hour sessions, takes a 5-10 minute break and goes on. I have more free time at work than this...
3. How dependant they are on voice communication. When I get back home from work, the last thing I want to is to stay in a voice chat with 40 people and listen to their commands. Would much rather listen to music or even in game sounds (I don't mind a game heavily depending on listening to enviromental sounds, like you have to in Darkfall if you want to know that somebody is sneaking up on your ass to loot your soon dead tush). I wish raids were more like killing Bhaal was in D2LOD...
4. Heaving to read up and learn the mechanics before. I might be all old school and somewhat lazy but I really am not enjoying to STUDY each boss and his every move to be able to compete at any level. It's just not my definition of fun (yet, again, I don't see my guildies complaining about this). I know that my good friend who had to lead the first raid in Firelands sat a whole day learning each boss mechanics. Where are the times where bosses used to have random abilities and actually surprize the player? Right now it feels more like choreographic dancing of 40 people who keep repeating the same dance over and over and over again...
Well, there are more. But the main problem is really easy: "It's just not fun". And isn't that the only thing that matters in a game? All I do in WoW is pvp now *sigh*
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
Hans Margolius
that is the main problems hardcore raiders run into. it's an exclusionary "club" just like top gun or navy seal, or delta force:D not everyone wants to be in a raiding oriented game, they neither have the inclination nor enjoy that type of gaming. the niche of hardcore raiding game is too big of a risk for game publishers to invest in. most people wouldnt want to put in the time for a hardcore raiding oriented game. and, there really isnt much "entrance exam" you can take to see if you "qualify" for hardcore raiding. as most people mentioned, it IS like a 2nd job, however, it's what the raiders enjoy.
Because I'm a grown up and won't let a 16-year-old bully me around through a microphone.
Raiding is a full time job. I found it stressful, repetitive, and boring. It's another gear grind so you can get ready to grind for the next gen gear. It's also taken far too seriously by people and they help make it even more unfun.
Archlinux ftw
i've raided with alot of 16 yr olds who are more mature and have better leadership skills then most 26 yr olds:D internet is more about attitude and states of mind. age really dont have too much to do with how internet works:D
it's like alot of the post WoW generation of gamers are actually adults. but they use the game as an excuse to act like arses
^THIS
THAT^
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Where did you get this idea?
GW2 is a casual MMO, Raiding is not a Casual feature so it makes perfect sense it doesn't have it
I am not surprised GW2 audience cheered the news.
I am a Raider but I will play GW2 because to me it looks the perfect casual game, and it is ideal when I have my "casual" moments
Although generally my main interest are MMOs with a solid Raid culture (I am hoping EQ3 will fullfill my needs)
raiding is like watching a moving that you have already see
this is the main reason why hardcore raiders retire:D you may not like them, but they down right hate you:D it's unfortunate, because when it comes to HARD content, they force themselves to carry the heaviest loads. and when they retire, you end up with the under dressed unskilled noob who just want to leech and get phat lewtz as their replacement:D it's the domino effect that created the "post WoW generation" of MMOer's
I might have my feelings hurt if I as a pvp'er didn't absolutely despise carebear gear heads.
For me, it's just a matter of time. I just don't normally have the time to do raids and I have PvP, so it would be nice if there was something else MMO's could do for end-game content but I have no idea what that would be and apparently neither do MMO developers :P
I got bad news for you:( it comes in the form of SOE:D
My take on why raiding has grown unpopular is due to the trend of over tuning raid encounters. I'm not saying that raiding shouldn't be challenging, but to me it seems that raiding has become too much of a rigid procedure than it is a fun passtime.
Most of the raids and their encounters are tuned for a specific set number of players, and then futher balanced around a specific combination of the trinity there of. Not only that, but a lot of the raid encounters are getting so gimmicky that you have to have the same core group of people every week or you risk backsliding on content.
As others have said, it's become too much of a job. There's only so many raid spots available, so getting your spot may mean playing a class or role you don't enjoy. Furthermore, keeping your spot means having to be there almost every schduled raid, or you risk losing your spot. If real life happens for one or more raid members, then you need to get people to fill in for them... which typically means you need to over recruit raid members. But then if no one is away, you don't have enough spots and people get irritated. Then there's all of the ridiculous meta-gamed loot rule systems that need to go in place to deal with the inevitable loot dispites that are borne from overly random and extremely limited drops.
Which is really why I don't get the current design philosophy of raids. It's almost as if the entire concept has been flipped around to do everything possible to make the game less fun to play. Organizing it is a pain. Feeling obligated to attend every single raid for risk of losing your spot or feel you're letting down or handicapping your raid by not being there. Loot is a pain to deal with, etc.
Sure, a challenge is nice. Steamrolling content is boring. But personally I'd prefer to play raid content that was challenging, but could still be doable with a few less, or a few more people. I'd like if I could raid one week with my friends, take a week off for real life, then come back again the week after without risking loss of my raid spot or having screwed over my raid group by not having been there. To be able to bring along those few extra friends whenever they wanted to come, without having to leave them out because they're considered 'overflow'.
Raiding use to be a lot more fun when it was more flexible.
this is one of the things that always confused me. if pvp is your game, why waste time in a RPG? FPS is a much more enjoyable platform for pvp... there is no gear grind. no lvl grind. just pure pvp...
actually this is where large scale raids shine. yes there are a few key components that you MUST have to raid. but there are also alot more people around to fill those components. you taking a week off for summer vacation isnt as detrimental to a 72 man raid as it would be for a 10 man raid. it's all about the numbers and large raids are far more flexible. its more constricting when it comes to the raw numbers that MUST show up, but it's more flexible as to WHO shows up.
Wouldn't want to speak for the community as a whole, but for myself raids are little more than a developer's cop out. As the so called endgame you would think that it would be something a litte more epic than spending a couple days a week doing the same instance over and over again all for the chance of getting a piece of virtual loot. Then, you get to spend at least half your offraid nights WORKING towards raid night. Not playing a game, but gathering resources for hours to craft things to try and give you an edge, not to mention having to grind for cash to pay for repairs if you have a bunch of drunkards and stoners in your guild lol.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
shame on you for speaking ill of Mr. Leeeeeeeroy Jenkins:D at least he's go chicken:D
That's the thing. I never did much raiding in EQ, but I remember doing Nagefen and Vox as well as Saryn The Goddess of Torment from Planes of Power and a few other things here and there, yet I don't remember going into a single raid where I felt as if I personally had to memorize the fight mechanics before going in yet people always say EQ was so hard. WoW raiding seems to me as if it requires a lot more preparation.
Isn't that the definition of "hardcore"?No no, that isn't a flame, because it really isn't true either. Out of the (many) guilds I've raided with, I've seen all different levels of "challenge" set as the goal of the raid leaders.
Some players find wipe-50-times-tuning to be the minimum level of challenge level they want to play at. They get a sense of achievement from being the first, being in the top 2%, or whatever yardstick they're using to measure their "leetness". That's what game competition ladders are all about; give me a number in relation to other players so that I can judge my skillz.
Other players have their raid challenge level set so low that even the weakest players in the raid could easily handle their simple assigned tasks, while watching television and talking on the phone.
And everything in between, literally a huge range of play styles and comfort zones.
The easiest answer is that "fun" is incredibly relative to individual players. What frustrates Bill to tears is yawningly easy for John, and they both want the challenge to be adjusted to their individual levels. Bill wouldn't play John's game for even an hour, and vice-versa.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.