I've enjoyed raids. Some of them have been really fun to explore with 10-25 guildies. I dont know what you guys are hampering on about tons of hours required. I mean I remember in the sapce of 4hours we killed 12bosses. The only time I've spent tons of time on a boss is those few bosses with somewhat annoying and complex mechanics such as heroic PP, sindragosa and the lich king. Nefarian also in Cata.
I do miss the faster paced normal raids in Wrath of the Lich King. They were a lot more fun because they dropped the time required to raid creating a more fast paced enviroment which honestly was a lot of fun. Alas though Gear Whores did not like the fact everyone could kill LK on normal even though thats how it was designed to be and Cataclysn came into effect. RIP Wrath of the Lich King.
I hated raiding when hating raiding wasn't cool. Back in the early days of EQ I started hating raiding and my feelings haven't changed over the years.
I'm one of those old timers who bitches about how the new games have gone in the wrong direction and so on and so forth but raiding is one of those old design flaws I would be happy to see tossed into the trash heap of mmo history.
Other people have already listed plenty of reasons to hate it so I won't bother going through that again.
Because as we all found out in WoW and to a lesser degree in other MMOs, most game designers have no clue as to what "fun" is and instead design such raids to keep you paying and playing in a carrot and stick approach, as opposed to just making the FREAKING GAME/RAID FUN ti keep subscribers.
Case in point, in WoW:
1) You take an hour organising a PUG raid after spamming trade chat for what seemed like an eternity, putting up with all the kiddies pottie talk and other brain sapping chatter, only to have players quit right before the Raid starts or 10 seconds into it....DOH!
2) Per above, you wipe.
3) Per above, if somehow you do finish it, you get jack squat as loot.
4) Oh yeah, and now yo uare locked out of the Raid so that people with no life cant farm it.
5) Per above, you are in a great guild, but the same crap above happens....DOH!
6) when all is said and done you just wasted several hours for nothing.
I think its mostly devs that like raid content. They get some sort of kick out of seeing massive numbers of players jumping through their hoops, and largely ignore how those players feel about it, as long as they can get them to keep doing it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The raiding community is very small and thats because 75% of us have jobs, familys and just don't have the time to devote being on the game at set times. I really think mmo's would be better making 5 man raids and more solo instances.
It is unpopular with me because it is content that eats a lot of developer time, is then only utilized by a small minority, and yet I'm paying for this content that I'll never see.
I think the title should really read, why is raiding so unpopular with some of the mmorpg.com community
the first ever raid i took part in, was in Everquest, i had a wizard and.. as part of the 'dps' group we had to be able to focus fire on set mobs... it was exciting.. and ... i died a few times.. but it didnt stop it being fun.. having so many people in one place meant it was fairly hectic too... but it was a guild raid.. as were all the raids i was on in Everquest.. i think it was inevitable that WoW would have raiding, as it was a major feature of Everquest, and of DAOC come to think of it.. though in DAOC there was the added factor of PvP...
it does seem though, that raiding is 'scaling down' more, but then modern MMO's seem to be going more solo friendly.. so is it that raiding is becoming less fun.. or is it that what raiding is becoming, is less fun? .. i know im still having fun.. but.. im not spending as much time in games as i used to.... and while Everquest coined the phrase Evercrack.. due to its 'addictive' qualities... barring Eve (though to a lesser degree) i don't/havent been getting that kind of feeling from games for a good long while.. not really since SWG went fubar.. (i had 4 accounts ) ..... maybe planetside2 will be a game that is orientated towards large numbers of players again and reintroduces the concept of teamwork etc.. but..... SOE have let me down so many times now that optimism is out of the question...
For me its not the encounter itself that is boring. Its more that in some games you have to do it 3289679 times if you are unlucky to obtain a full armourset. Then any PVE encounter becomes boring. That armourset which is then needed to have a chance at the next tier raid. Where the endless repeating starts over. This process is what I find mindboggling boring.
It's not "doesn't like raiding any more". It's "never did like raiding and still doesn't".
Having to schedule your life around a game is bad.
Needing to farm peculiar gear with no use outside of a particular raid is bad.
Having to do the same raid a bunch of times in a row in order to get up for the next is bad.
Being unable to do the content you want because you're waiting for a raid lockout to end is bad.
Having to worry about losing all of your progress if your guild breaks up is bad. Especially when game mechanics seem designed with the intent to create guild drama and try to break up your guild.
Well-put. Someone else with an extra chromosome and intelligence to boot.
An extra chromosome tends to indicate mental retardation (trisomey 21 for instance). The more you know!
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
The fundamental problem is with your thesis, raiding is not unpopular -- quite the opposite -- and extremely few people are cheering Anet on or even know or care what in the hell GW2 is going to be about.
Originally posted by MMOExposed I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.Note: Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
Which community? i hope you are not talking about mmorpg.com because these forums do not represent MMO players world wide. There are millions of players so it is hard to say if it is unpopular or not but if i go according to the MMOS i have played recently the players in game want raiding otherwise end game is not good enough.
I am sorry but i have no idea how you are assuming that raiding is unpopular in this so called community?
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
The raiding community is very small and thats because 75% of us have jobs, familys and just don't have the time to devote being on the game at set times. I really think mmo's would be better making 5 man raids and more solo instances.
wait, so wouldnt WoW's easier form of Raids, make things more accessable to players like you with less time?
it isnt the raiding part player arent fond of it is the boring grind!bring the same but a la aion in a popular format and it will fly high.check the new daily in wow it is basicly a pvpve environment. it would be perfect but for the fact it isnt balanced kills it.now blizzard has to find a way to balance this, without putting it in a closed instance(like dungeon)solution would have been to do like aion did count each faction so they always are balanced.unbalanced server are a killer for game ,yes even wow!but blizzard is stuck in a rut,they did try to balance wintergrasp!result ?the weaker faction always won!why?they were so used to be outnumbered they crushed the oppsite faction and also blizzard had complain cause player could never hop on.so the only way blizzard can balance server is force the strongest faction to move to the weakest faction in a similar populated server.will it happen?prob not they ll balance their next title that is a given since all their prob is always close to the same issue(balancing issue)but wow ?i aint sure they will force player to move around so that server become balanced !would be perfect tho.if they went 50/50 there would be less ohrde on my server and more allies!
Maybe its the fact raiding in these games is so utterly pointless and a waste of time, I mean sure the gear is nice but what uses to you have for the gear? Nothing, and thats the major problem. IMO game needs meaningful pvp endgame, people get bored of fighting pve stuff for endgame, Make some pvp stuff with land control and such, bascally daoc, before spellcrafting you'd hit max level, raid for the best gear in game, then go out and pvp with it for realm skill points and fun, and also giving your faction a buff depending on how many keeps in the frontier you owned. Before Cata hit I liked wow, I hit lv 80 on my char, then did a few raids then quit the game because raiding was just a waste of my time due to no use for the gear after its obtained.
I mean don't make the pvp forced or anything, but have it there and something nice setup so after raiding they have a use for their gear.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
OP you seem to keep ignoring the fact that the massive multiplayer cooperative content that wow-style raiding stood for IS in guild wars 2 and it doesnt have the same drawbacks of typical raid dungeons.
The only difference is that there are no raid dungeons but there are raid dynamic events. Therefore there IS raiding o.o
And WoW isnt an easier form of raids. The barrier of entry is still huge. Want an easy form of raids? Go look at kings quests in fiesta online. o.o
Raiding isnt unpopular. WoW style raiding with high barrier of entry is the one getting most of the flak.
In asda story as well, there are no raid dungeons. But there are open world areas where you need a large group of people to participate to beat. o.o Yet they still called that raiding. So why cant the same be said for large scale multiplayer events? o.o
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Maybe its the fact raiding in these games is so utterly pointless and a waste of time, I mean sure the gear is nice but what uses to you have for the gear? Nothing, and thats the major problem. IMO game needs meaningful pvp endgame, people get bored of fighting pve stuff for endgame, Make some pvp stuff with land control and such, bascally daoc, before spellcrafting you'd hit max level, raid for the best gear in game, then go out and pvp with it for realm skill points and fun, and also giving your faction a buff depending on how many keeps in the frontier you owned. Before Cata hit I liked wow, I hit lv 80 on my char, then did a few raids then quit the game because raiding was just a waste of my time due to no use for the gear after its obtained.
I mean don't make the pvp forced or anything, but have it there and something nice setup so after raiding they have a use for their gear.
been there done that blizzard would probably say to you and they qwould be right!check av isnt it one of the best pvpve place in wow?but player complained that battle were too long blabla and blizzard nerfed it to what is now.i wish player had farm to bring the giant the horse the plane and everything that can be done via pvp killsbut the sad truth is player run as fast as they can and just go for the boss.and jump in again!boring?hell yes tremdously so!if they made the hidden a mandatory thing to be done before you can touch each tower or boss i bet a lot of player would have lot more fun!but the way it is it jjust plain is bring mindlessness!
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?
Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
Raiding is both by intent and as suffered non-immersive. It is a forced system of manipulation that rips the player out of the fantasy. Doesn't matter the story that's force fed you to explain the objective(s); it's always artificial. It's boring. It's tedius. It's underwhelming in its entirity. It's mundane, anti-heroic even. It is the stunted existance after youth. It's the long cold undeath. The imaginings of a mad, twisted, S&M freak. It's hated; It's unknowable dribble. It's best forsaken, it's best cast aside in favor of the next alt, until that character too dies from the foregown dismal horizon that advances upon a character and a game like a fungus on your favorite playset. It's hideous; it's sad. It's tragic. I move on endlessly hoping to never meet the fate again, and know I'll always be disappointed. Maybe GW2 is the golden light, the savior, the new eden. We can still at least hope -- the glorious words proclaiming the absence of evil have been heard by this one. I kneel in thanksgiving and pray for salivation.
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
I think you're confusing the opinions of an extremely small vocal minority that you've been exposed to on this site with a roaring majority. The truth is gaming forums are comprised of a very tiny, passionate subset of gamers who tend to have a very different perspective than the average gamer out there. They come here to commiserate, reminisce, rant, and even sometimes express praise, but the views expressed on forums such as these simply cannot be considered representative of the MMO community as a whole.
I happen to be extremely excited for GW2, but I'd venture to guess that upwards of 95% of MMO players have never heard of the title yet. I think Anet is doing an incredible job advertising their product thus far, but in the end the information they release is only viewed by a small minority of players who seek out info on promising upcoming MMOs. The rest relies on word-of-mouth, which plays a somewhat small role in the hype game prior to release and a much larger role in the review game after release.
I like raiding, but I feel developers are getting lazy and need to be a little more creative with their raid encounters.
Every raid in modern games basically amounts to clear some trash, memorize boss mechanics, stick a tank on boss, handle adds, stay out of AOEs, kill boss before enrage timer goes off, collect loot.
I feel there's a lot developers could do with raid encounters to make them more exciting and less tedious, they just have to be a little more creative.
Actually i find the whole idea of alienating an entire playstyle to be disconcerting. There are many different playstyles ranging from solo, to small groups, up to large scale raids, and even PvE and PvP playstyles differ. Alienating even one drastically lowers the population of your game.
From a raiders perspective, im very disappointed. I have been raiding hardcore in multiple MMOs for the last decade. I have seen it anywhere from 10-12 man up to 40. I have never felt 'drawn out' from the immersion. Quite the contrary, most raids are designed to enhance the lore and stories being told. And when you only solo, quest or do smaller dungeons you never actually see the full story. Take EQ2 for example. Each expansion tells a very elaborate story. Theres always a very prominent antagonist directly tied to the lore. In dungeon questing you see how this antagonist is involved in the world, what they are trying to accomplish, but in raids, you get to actually go head-to-head as it were to directly be involved in stopping them. If you dont raid, you never see the whole story.
In MMOs, raiding is a vital part of storytelling. You dont want to see 5 people going after a Godking, or Lich King, or King of any type. You want to tackle that with as many friends as the game allows. Sure theres horror stories about wiping repeatedly after hours of preparation, but lets face it, its a God you are facing. And if you are in a guild with devoted like minded people, you never have to pick up people to fill slots. In 7 years of raiding end game in EQ2, i have never filled a spot with some random person.
In summary, yes raiding is vital to an MMO. No raiding isnt for everyone. But then again, not everyone likes being ganked while harvesting (PvP), or spend hours reading thier game (quests). Removing any one of those playstyle limits your population. And even the players that like what you offer will start to leave if the population doesnt support THIER playstyle. Unfortunately this news of no raid dungeons has turned me off to GW2. I was looking forward to the new game, many features drew my attention, but unless there are raids put into it by release, i WONT be buying or playing. Sorry.
When speaking in regards to raids what I don't like about them (In particular PvE) it's the fact that once a group beats the raid and knows how it's just a matter of repeating the process. I get bored if I know what to expect and what to do when.
Just give me a sandbox PvP game, at leat in there all you know to expect is the unexpected.
I like raiding, but I feel developers are getting lazy and need to be a little more creative with their raid encounters.
Every raid in modern games basically amounts to clear some trash, memorize boss mechanics, stick a tank on boss, handle adds, stay out of AOEs, kill boss before enrage timer goes off, collect loot.
I feel there's a lot developers could do with raid encounters to make them more exciting and less tedious, they just have to be a little more creative.
This confuses me. In a group dungeon you have 5-6 players. One tank, a healer (maybe 2), support and dps. Which part of your statement above about raid encounters doesnt apply to groups? Every single group encounter you have one tank. That one tank stands in a corner while everyone else either heals or hurles fireballs/arrows at him. In small groups its impossible to break away from that mechanic because of the limited manpower.
In raid encounters, you can have up to 4 tanks, 8 healers, lots of support and a wide variety of dpsers. Many raid encounters take advantage of the large number, and will force multiple tanks to swap in and out, other groups can run off and pull switches or click statues, or even split the raid into 2 separate groups to fight mirror images of the same battle. No where in group play can that EVER happen. Theres just not enough players involved. And if you only have 5 people in a group who wants 2 tanks?
It appearant who actually raids and who doesnt by the comments being made. Anyone who thinks the mechanics are more bland than a small group encounter has never actually been in a raid. I agree with the comments such as its annoying or frustrating to wipe for 4 hours a night, and even the ones about filling needed slots with noob players. But NEVER can it be said its not more involved and in need an actaul strategy to take down. Sure you only have to memorize the boss mechanics, but lets be serious, thats the exact same thing for every single boss, in every single game, both MMO and not. You think the boss at the end of a single player console game is gonna be any different the next time you play through? Once you learn that you have to jump over his hammer swing, run in a counter clockwise circle away from his energy weapon, then double jump onto his back to slash his neck, its gonna feel repeatative every time you fight that boss. Be real people.
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?
Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
Wouldn't say it's unpopular, the biggest games out there are focused on raiding and people voting with their wallets and game time trumps forums any day. That said high end raid content = scheduled play, if you like your leisure activities to be carefully planned and you set up your tee times or buy tickets for events etc. weeks in advance, get a baby sitter, message your wife or whatever that you'll be busy at raiding time slots and it doesn't really matter what she's wearing she better not disturb you then raiding is great. If you're more into picking up the game when you feel like playing, taking a stroll on the beach just because you're in the mood and your'e fine with the wife interrupting your game play suggesting there are more interesting activities you could be involved in you likely want the games you play to be less focused on raiding and much more on casual content (or at least content requiring shorter contiguous sessions.)
Well as a raider if it isn't for you.welllll don't doit.If I had to guess I would say that more people who play MMO's like to raid than don't.Some people say , well "Why can't I get the top gear if I don't raid." The answer is simple.You don't need the top gear to progress on if you don't raid.If you are just playing for the social aspect and just to do what ever it is you like, then gear really has no affect on you (to an extenent).No one forces you to raid.You can do what ever you want .But Raiding being unpopular is only a thought of Forum dwellers.Cuz the ones who spend there time actually in game realize that if they don't want to raid ...They don't have to.And are ingame doing other things that brings them joy.Some of us like the extremely challenging content in some games that gives us a sense of accomplishment when we work our asses off to beat a boss that is a tough fight.Others don't.
Unfortunately this thought of GW2 not having Raids, isa Huge turn off for me.I am gonna try it still .But I hope they give us Raiders some good raid content.Which i bet they ultimately will.If Not Make the so called Open world Bosses an extreme challenge requiring 40+ people to work together to take down.If its too cupcake they are gonna lose a good portion of there player base pretty fast.The more i read about GW2 the less I find myself wanting to try it.But none the less , I will give it a shot just to see if lives up to its hype.
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?
Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
Unfortunatly not enough people dislike raiding, most game's endgame are raid based.
Raids can be very fun with a group of people but slightes change to that group and raid is no more fun.
I would like to see more small group and solo endgame content, using the multiplayer part of the game for trading chatting and show up the nice items you fond on your last adventure,maybe building towns and so on.I have had may share of raidings.
Comments
I've enjoyed raids. Some of them have been really fun to explore with 10-25 guildies. I dont know what you guys are hampering on about tons of hours required. I mean I remember in the sapce of 4hours we killed 12bosses. The only time I've spent tons of time on a boss is those few bosses with somewhat annoying and complex mechanics such as heroic PP, sindragosa and the lich king. Nefarian also in Cata.
I do miss the faster paced normal raids in Wrath of the Lich King. They were a lot more fun because they dropped the time required to raid creating a more fast paced enviroment which honestly was a lot of fun. Alas though Gear Whores did not like the fact everyone could kill LK on normal even though thats how it was designed to be and Cataclysn came into effect. RIP Wrath of the Lich King.
I hated raiding when hating raiding wasn't cool. Back in the early days of EQ I started hating raiding and my feelings haven't changed over the years.
I'm one of those old timers who bitches about how the new games have gone in the wrong direction and so on and so forth but raiding is one of those old design flaws I would be happy to see tossed into the trash heap of mmo history.
Other people have already listed plenty of reasons to hate it so I won't bother going through that again.
Because as we all found out in WoW and to a lesser degree in other MMOs, most game designers have no clue as to what "fun" is and instead design such raids to keep you paying and playing in a carrot and stick approach, as opposed to just making the FREAKING GAME/RAID FUN ti keep subscribers.
Case in point, in WoW:
1) You take an hour organising a PUG raid after spamming trade chat for what seemed like an eternity, putting up with all the kiddies pottie talk and other brain sapping chatter, only to have players quit right before the Raid starts or 10 seconds into it....DOH!
2) Per above, you wipe.
3) Per above, if somehow you do finish it, you get jack squat as loot.
4) Oh yeah, and now yo uare locked out of the Raid so that people with no life cant farm it.
5) Per above, you are in a great guild, but the same crap above happens....DOH!
6) when all is said and done you just wasted several hours for nothing.
Why bother.....
I think its mostly devs that like raid content. They get some sort of kick out of seeing massive numbers of players jumping through their hoops, and largely ignore how those players feel about it, as long as they can get them to keep doing it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The raiding community is very small and thats because 75% of us have jobs, familys and just don't have the time to devote being on the game at set times. I really think mmo's would be better making 5 man raids and more solo instances.
It is unpopular with me because it is content that eats a lot of developer time, is then only utilized by a small minority, and yet I'm paying for this content that I'll never see.
I think the title should really read, why is raiding so unpopular with some of the mmorpg.com community
the first ever raid i took part in, was in Everquest, i had a wizard and.. as part of the 'dps' group we had to be able to focus fire on set mobs... it was exciting.. and ... i died a few times.. but it didnt stop it being fun.. having so many people in one place meant it was fairly hectic too... but it was a guild raid.. as were all the raids i was on in Everquest.. i think it was inevitable that WoW would have raiding, as it was a major feature of Everquest, and of DAOC come to think of it.. though in DAOC there was the added factor of PvP...
it does seem though, that raiding is 'scaling down' more, but then modern MMO's seem to be going more solo friendly.. so is it that raiding is becoming less fun.. or is it that what raiding is becoming, is less fun? .. i know im still having fun.. but.. im not spending as much time in games as i used to.... and while Everquest coined the phrase Evercrack.. due to its 'addictive' qualities... barring Eve (though to a lesser degree) i don't/havent been getting that kind of feeling from games for a good long while.. not really since SWG went fubar.. (i had 4 accounts
) ..... maybe planetside2 will be a game that is orientated towards large numbers of players again and reintroduces the concept of teamwork etc.. but..... SOE have let me down so many times now that optimism is out of the question... 
For me its not the encounter itself that is boring. Its more that in some games you have to do it 3289679 times if you are unlucky to obtain a full armourset. Then any PVE encounter becomes boring. That armourset which is then needed to have a chance at the next tier raid. Where the endless repeating starts over. This process is what I find mindboggling boring.
An extra chromosome tends to indicate mental retardation (trisomey 21 for instance). The more you know!
The fundamental problem is with your thesis, raiding is not unpopular -- quite the opposite -- and extremely few people are cheering Anet on or even know or care what in the hell GW2 is going to be about.
Which community? i hope you are not talking about mmorpg.com because these forums do not represent MMO players world wide. There are millions of players so it is hard to say if it is unpopular or not but if i go according to the MMOS i have played recently the players in game want raiding otherwise end game is not good enough.
I am sorry but i have no idea how you are assuming that raiding is unpopular in this so called community?
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
wait, so wouldnt WoW's easier form of Raids, make things more accessable to players like you with less time?
@above poster:
just search the dicussion on GW2 forum. People cheered the fact that Anet said no Raid Dungeons.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
it isnt the raiding part player arent fond of it is the boring grind!bring the same but a la aion in a popular format and it will fly high.check the new daily in wow it is basicly a pvpve environment. it would be perfect but for the fact it isnt balanced kills it.now blizzard has to find a way to balance this, without putting it in a closed instance(like dungeon)solution would have been to do like aion did count each faction so they always are balanced.unbalanced server are a killer for game ,yes even wow!but blizzard is stuck in a rut,they did try to balance wintergrasp!result ?the weaker faction always won!why?they were so used to be outnumbered they crushed the oppsite faction and also blizzard had complain cause player could never hop on.so the only way blizzard can balance server is force the strongest faction to move to the weakest faction in a similar populated server.will it happen?prob not they ll balance their next title that is a given since all their prob is always close to the same issue(balancing issue)but wow ?i aint sure they will force player to move around so that server become balanced !would be perfect tho.if they went 50/50 there would be less ohrde on my server and more allies!
Maybe its the fact raiding in these games is so utterly pointless and a waste of time, I mean sure the gear is nice but what uses to you have for the gear? Nothing, and thats the major problem. IMO game needs meaningful pvp endgame, people get bored of fighting pve stuff for endgame, Make some pvp stuff with land control and such, bascally daoc, before spellcrafting you'd hit max level, raid for the best gear in game, then go out and pvp with it for realm skill points and fun, and also giving your faction a buff depending on how many keeps in the frontier you owned. Before Cata hit I liked wow, I hit lv 80 on my char, then did a few raids then quit the game because raiding was just a waste of my time due to no use for the gear after its obtained.
I mean don't make the pvp forced or anything, but have it there and something nice setup so after raiding they have a use for their gear.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
OP you seem to keep ignoring the fact that the massive multiplayer cooperative content that wow-style raiding stood for IS in guild wars 2 and it doesnt have the same drawbacks of typical raid dungeons.
The only difference is that there are no raid dungeons but there are raid dynamic events. Therefore there IS raiding o.o
And WoW isnt an easier form of raids. The barrier of entry is still huge. Want an easy form of raids? Go look at kings quests in fiesta online. o.o
Raiding isnt unpopular. WoW style raiding with high barrier of entry is the one getting most of the flak.
In asda story as well, there are no raid dungeons. But there are open world areas where you need a large group of people to participate to beat. o.o Yet they still called that raiding. So why cant the same be said for large scale multiplayer events? o.o
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
been there done that blizzard would probably say to you and they qwould be right!check av isnt it one of the best pvpve place in wow?but player complained that battle were too long blabla and blizzard nerfed it to what is now.i wish player had farm to bring the giant the horse the plane and everything that can be done via pvp killsbut the sad truth is player run as fast as they can and just go for the boss.and jump in again!boring?hell yes tremdously so!if they made the hidden a mandatory thing to be done before you can touch each tower or boss i bet a lot of player would have lot more fun!but the way it is it jjust plain is bring mindlessness!
Raiding is both by intent and as suffered non-immersive. It is a forced system of manipulation that rips the player out of the fantasy. Doesn't matter the story that's force fed you to explain the objective(s); it's always artificial. It's boring. It's tedius. It's underwhelming in its entirity. It's mundane, anti-heroic even. It is the stunted existance after youth. It's the long cold undeath. The imaginings of a mad, twisted, S&M freak. It's hated; It's unknowable dribble. It's best forsaken, it's best cast aside in favor of the next alt, until that character too dies from the foregown dismal horizon that advances upon a character and a game like a fungus on your favorite playset. It's hideous; it's sad. It's tragic. I move on endlessly hoping to never meet the fate again, and know I'll always be disappointed. Maybe GW2 is the golden light, the savior, the new eden. We can still at least hope -- the glorious words proclaiming the absence of evil have been heard by this one. I kneel in thanksgiving and pray for salivation.
I think you're confusing the opinions of an extremely small vocal minority that you've been exposed to on this site with a roaring majority. The truth is gaming forums are comprised of a very tiny, passionate subset of gamers who tend to have a very different perspective than the average gamer out there. They come here to commiserate, reminisce, rant, and even sometimes express praise, but the views expressed on forums such as these simply cannot be considered representative of the MMO community as a whole.
I happen to be extremely excited for GW2, but I'd venture to guess that upwards of 95% of MMO players have never heard of the title yet. I think Anet is doing an incredible job advertising their product thus far, but in the end the information they release is only viewed by a small minority of players who seek out info on promising upcoming MMOs. The rest relies on word-of-mouth, which plays a somewhat small role in the hype game prior to release and a much larger role in the review game after release.
I like raiding, but I feel developers are getting lazy and need to be a little more creative with their raid encounters.
Every raid in modern games basically amounts to clear some trash, memorize boss mechanics, stick a tank on boss, handle adds, stay out of AOEs, kill boss before enrage timer goes off, collect loot.
I feel there's a lot developers could do with raid encounters to make them more exciting and less tedious, they just have to be a little more creative.
Actually i find the whole idea of alienating an entire playstyle to be disconcerting. There are many different playstyles ranging from solo, to small groups, up to large scale raids, and even PvE and PvP playstyles differ. Alienating even one drastically lowers the population of your game.
From a raiders perspective, im very disappointed. I have been raiding hardcore in multiple MMOs for the last decade. I have seen it anywhere from 10-12 man up to 40. I have never felt 'drawn out' from the immersion. Quite the contrary, most raids are designed to enhance the lore and stories being told. And when you only solo, quest or do smaller dungeons you never actually see the full story. Take EQ2 for example. Each expansion tells a very elaborate story. Theres always a very prominent antagonist directly tied to the lore. In dungeon questing you see how this antagonist is involved in the world, what they are trying to accomplish, but in raids, you get to actually go head-to-head as it were to directly be involved in stopping them. If you dont raid, you never see the whole story.
In MMOs, raiding is a vital part of storytelling. You dont want to see 5 people going after a Godking, or Lich King, or King of any type. You want to tackle that with as many friends as the game allows. Sure theres horror stories about wiping repeatedly after hours of preparation, but lets face it, its a God you are facing. And if you are in a guild with devoted like minded people, you never have to pick up people to fill slots. In 7 years of raiding end game in EQ2, i have never filled a spot with some random person.
In summary, yes raiding is vital to an MMO. No raiding isnt for everyone. But then again, not everyone likes being ganked while harvesting (PvP), or spend hours reading thier game (quests). Removing any one of those playstyle limits your population. And even the players that like what you offer will start to leave if the population doesnt support THIER playstyle. Unfortunately this news of no raid dungeons has turned me off to GW2. I was looking forward to the new game, many features drew my attention, but unless there are raids put into it by release, i WONT be buying or playing. Sorry.
When speaking in regards to raids what I don't like about them (In particular PvE) it's the fact that once a group beats the raid and knows how it's just a matter of repeating the process. I get bored if I know what to expect and what to do when.
Just give me a sandbox PvP game, at leat in there all you know to expect is the unexpected.
Full Sail University - Game Design
This confuses me. In a group dungeon you have 5-6 players. One tank, a healer (maybe 2), support and dps. Which part of your statement above about raid encounters doesnt apply to groups? Every single group encounter you have one tank. That one tank stands in a corner while everyone else either heals or hurles fireballs/arrows at him. In small groups its impossible to break away from that mechanic because of the limited manpower.
In raid encounters, you can have up to 4 tanks, 8 healers, lots of support and a wide variety of dpsers. Many raid encounters take advantage of the large number, and will force multiple tanks to swap in and out, other groups can run off and pull switches or click statues, or even split the raid into 2 separate groups to fight mirror images of the same battle. No where in group play can that EVER happen. Theres just not enough players involved. And if you only have 5 people in a group who wants 2 tanks?
It appearant who actually raids and who doesnt by the comments being made. Anyone who thinks the mechanics are more bland than a small group encounter has never actually been in a raid. I agree with the comments such as its annoying or frustrating to wipe for 4 hours a night, and even the ones about filling needed slots with noob players. But NEVER can it be said its not more involved and in need an actaul strategy to take down. Sure you only have to memorize the boss mechanics, but lets be serious, thats the exact same thing for every single boss, in every single game, both MMO and not. You think the boss at the end of a single player console game is gonna be any different the next time you play through? Once you learn that you have to jump over his hammer swing, run in a counter clockwise circle away from his energy weapon, then double jump onto his back to slash his neck, its gonna feel repeatative every time you fight that boss. Be real people.
Wouldn't say it's unpopular, the biggest games out there are focused on raiding and people voting with their wallets and game time trumps forums any day. That said high end raid content = scheduled play, if you like your leisure activities to be carefully planned and you set up your tee times or buy tickets for events etc. weeks in advance, get a baby sitter, message your wife or whatever that you'll be busy at raiding time slots and it doesn't really matter what she's wearing she better not disturb you then raiding is great. If you're more into picking up the game when you feel like playing, taking a stroll on the beach just because you're in the mood and your'e fine with the wife interrupting your game play suggesting there are more interesting activities you could be involved in you likely want the games you play to be less focused on raiding and much more on casual content (or at least content requiring shorter contiguous sessions.)
Well as a raider if it isn't for you.welllll don't doit.If I had to guess I would say that more people who play MMO's like to raid than don't.Some people say , well "Why can't I get the top gear if I don't raid." The answer is simple.You don't need the top gear to progress on if you don't raid.If you are just playing for the social aspect and just to do what ever it is you like, then gear really has no affect on you (to an extenent).No one forces you to raid.You can do what ever you want .But Raiding being unpopular is only a thought of Forum dwellers.Cuz the ones who spend there time actually in game realize that if they don't want to raid ...They don't have to.And are ingame doing other things that brings them joy.Some of us like the extremely challenging content in some games that gives us a sense of accomplishment when we work our asses off to beat a boss that is a tough fight.Others don't.
Unfortunately this thought of GW2 not having Raids, isa Huge turn off for me.I am gonna try it still .But I hope they give us Raiders some good raid content.Which i bet they ultimately will.If Not Make the so called Open world Bosses an extreme challenge requiring 40+ people to work together to take down.If its too cupcake they are gonna lose a good portion of there player base pretty fast.The more i read about GW2 the less I find myself wanting to try it.But none the less , I will give it a shot just to see if lives up to its hype.
Unfortunatly not enough people dislike raiding, most game's endgame are raid based.
Raids can be very fun with a group of people but slightes change to that group and raid is no more fun.
I would like to see more small group and solo endgame content, using the multiplayer part of the game for trading chatting and show up the nice items you fond on your last adventure,maybe building towns and so on.I have had may share of raidings.