it's amusing to see people who admit to being in a "raiding guild" in WoW and thinks it's hardcore:D whats the avg raid size of WoW these days? 10 people? with biggest raids being 20 people?:D do WoW even make 40 man raids anymore?
how do people even qualify those numbers as being "raids" is really the issue here. back in the day, a 24 to 48man raid is just a pickup raid or something to do while you wait for the real raid to start:D a real raid doesnt even start till you going into the 60+ people range:D the "raids" of today's mmo are of such small size that there is no way the developer/designers can include enough complication and stress to push the players.
the REALLY complicated raids REQUIRE a large number of players because the "raid" would actually need to split into sub raids at different parts of the script. these days, the "sub raid" is consist of like 1 or 2 people:D whereas the old raids NEEDED a few "balanced groups" to tackle each sub raid while the main tank and cleric crew keeps the boss busy. heck in one of the anguish raids(Jelvan) in EQ1 you have to split the raids into 3 equal sized balanced sub raids with each side while not killing the sub boss faster then any other side. (within 5% of eachother) EACH side had over 20 players in it and we all had to coordinate with the raid leader to make sure we arent killing "too fast" each side had "specialists" that really cant be transfered easily to another side(since their skills are fairly useless in other sides) even if 1 side is suffering. so if 1 side collapse, it's time to drag corpses:D
the higher the number of raiders, the more complicated a raid script can become. small raids are limited to what CAN be brought to the raid, hence the complexity of the script is limited to the resources that CAN be brought into the raid.
i'm not saying WoW doesnt have well written raids. i'm just saying it's only a watered down versions of what it CAN be.
Because it's the ultimate hamster wheel. Pointless, monotonous and too little reward for the effort except for the lucky one or two out of the forty who were suckered into playing that crappy kind of content.
Because raiding these days are about "Spend 5 hours grinding on trash mobs to get to enlargened version of the trash mob that takes 3 hours to kill."
Call me when raid bosses difficulty is based on something else than ridiculous amount of HP and some "special" attack that takes 15 seconds to figure out.
Raiding is far from unpopular, its kept EQ1 alive for quite a few years now, and is widely regarded as the primary focus of most other fantasy based MMO's.... so what will a GW2 have instead of raiding... PvP can be popular, but not widely popular, so that isnt a replacement, so the game must have some PVE content for the 'masses' even if its 'raiding' by another name.. the games longevity will suffer otherwise.. too often now we're seeing MMO's reduce group sizes to ridiculously small numbers, we need to see more games cater to group sizes of 20+ even GW2's WvW PvP would be a waste of time if it was limited to a group of 4 - 6 vs the same kinds of numbers.. its the same with PVE really.. or else why bother calling a game a MMO...
Even tho raids are as stupid as a goldfish, WoW abd Rift, probably two of the most popular MMO right now, proven raids are what the general crowd wants, and thats what they get. sucks to be us.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Because it makes the developers lazy, just rinse and repeat the dungoens, or even use back old instances for the players to grind. In regardless of how big is a run, be it 5 man or 40, it's never good if all you do is repeative. making a game tedious is not equal to fun
Wow and rift is popular because to this segments of players, like me, there's nothing better out there anymore. For me I'm waiting for gw2 and jump over in a heart beat
I've hated Raiding since EQ days, and have never Raided since. Why? Too many people drop out without warning, too many go /afk and then get pissy because they don't get a crack at the loot. Too many players turn up late or not at all. Too many whiners, looters, griefers and incompetents. I don't need that shit.
Raiding is not a fun continual enterprise it is a means to an end to loot up and move onto the next instances. I have had much fun in many games and they usually involve mass pvp where I find myself wanting to stay logged in to achieve objectives or to defend my last castle. I never ever feel that way about raiding.
Why many dislike raiding? The time and commitment required.
Raiding should be a rare occurrence that makes it exciting in which you would want to set aside time for it.
Currently to raid, you must put your life on hold and be there at certain times 3 nights a week. Yeah, no thanks. But I would rather not commit to a second job. I like to play games at times that suit me, not others.
I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?
Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.
I can't speak for the MMO community, but can speak for myself.
And the main reason I don't really like raids is mostly because I like these type of things much more in regular multiplayer games, while they don't have the ammount of people into a raid for me it's much more exciting in normal multiplayer games as I want a different experiance from MMORPG.
Example would be I want MMORPG to REALLY be a online part of singleplayer RPG's, with this I mean in singleplayer games we have NPC's that give missions, NPC's that have vendors/merchants, the MMORPG counterpart should have players who can give missions ( player crafter A needs X ammount of resources, combat player B is skilled to get these resources and in exchange crafter A can either craft some needs for the combatant or the combatant just makes somes money from it. Same goes for instead NPC shops, in a MMORPG we should have player run shops and very limited NPC run shops, and I could say so much more as to why I play or atleast wish to play a MMORPG, but this is just a small tip of what I like about this genre that could be like this instead of what I do see mostly is that this genre addepted to much to a singleplayer RPG experiance.
I don't care for raiding for many of the reasons previously listed by others. But if my recent experience with Rift is anything to go by raiding is more popular than ever with the typical MMO player, most folks seemed quite willing and eager to jump on the hamster wheel and start gear grinding. I guess its how they've been conditioned.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How many players fully engage in end-game raids ? A tiny portion of the playerbase (from 2% to 10% in best cases). End-game raid content that requires a lot of development resources which could be used for overall better gaming experience for all the players. And what for ? The idiotic routine of grinding a raid over and over for a piece of gear that will be useless in the next one.
I, for first, am one that tries to put effort and dedication in any game that I play (Eve player with over 2 years of alliance wars here) but the standard raid mechanics (as too much things in MMOs) are plainly stupid and repetitive and need drastic redesign and rethinking.
The most popular games are based of raiding. What are you talking about?
Personally, I've never liked raiding. Its repetitive, and unadventurous.
Well I remember people cheered the fact that Anet doesnt want Raid Dungeons. Lot of people said they hated Raiding. Well why? Raiding fits the Massively Multiplayer element of PvE in MMORPG. Why is it so Unliked? Rather have 1v1 PvE or something?
agree with repeat element and if its the only way in game to have best goodies its forcing. i call for freedom of choise peeps to obtain the best gear the way they want but in balancing element.
some may say its not a game anymore you see some peeps compare it real life elements they live and talk to pixels more than real life , so if you need a milk to your coffee you dont need 25 peeps around you in shop. and mostly only very organized guild can do it smoothly enough not to have comments like " i need to do this and this hey guys wait a second, " and raid time expands too long , annoying the peeps and result is anger. and whyt you gice example of 1vs1 / like 25 people.
there is obtions like 5 peeps even 10, many people like to just play in small groups wich everyhting can be done quite smoothly anyways without too many peeps going a loo every 2 mins.
i personally dont like raiding cause of those reasons and because its forcing , saying WHY NOT CAUSE ITS MMO peeps together and all, well its not anymore just a game isit?
another thing is ive little daugther aswell dont wanna waste whole evening lurking after some boots i may get if nobody ninjaloot them, and then leave my daughter without an interaction cause i NEED RAID.
dont get me wrong ive done my raiding quite abit so i can atleast say ive experienced it and not talking my opinion out of woods. yeah and now some may say, well you oviously had bad guild yeah yeah so you all say but the same problems lies everywhere afterall.
cheers for arena net trying something different without raid dungeons!
Raiding is potentially fine where it is not compulsory and does not give gear with improved stats. Raiding gives achieves or mats that can also be obtained from other sources makes raiding an optional extra for those that want to. Do it that way and you dont create the endgame cycle that is item centric. Themeparks could also do this, no need to copy the wow mess.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I don't think it's unpopular, but I never liked huge groups. It just feels less personal. Plus I would rather just play with my RL friends or people I'm really cool with.
Doing end-game raiding generally entails a "time" for raids set by the raid officer(s). Unfortunately for many, raiding can take several hours, and when you're TOLD to get on @ a specific time for a set number of hours it can feel like a second job.
Most notably, if you're not having fun with a game's raid system, it's most likely the developers OR your guild's fault. Raiding should NOT be a second job. HOWEVER, if you do not have serious raid times raids fall apart, you get lackluster raiders, and your overall raiding experience gets worse
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I imagine most people dont feel like running a multi hour dungeon with a bunch of d**** for a chance to get some gear, when they could be doing something thats actually fun instead.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I've been playing mmo's for about 10 years now and I absolutely despise raiding. First of all, it just takes too god damned long. As a 30 y/o gamer with a child, wife and a full time job, I don't have 4-5 hours to drop into a raid. On top of that, it always feels like its a Clusterfuck whether I was in a great guild or not. Just too many people IMO. I prefer smaller 5 person groups overwhelmingly over raiding.
I like logging in and having a big raid to go to. I like being able to leave when I want because there are plenty of players ready to take my spot and if not, it's not a huge loss to everyone else. I do not like small group instances where if someone does not log in, you don't get to go at all. Bring the massive back to these games, please.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Raiding is not what an MMO should be about; With great design exponential learning curves the MMO world whould have pretty much an unlimited gaming cycle.
Most games cannot support this, they should provide ; Charachter Development ; Hero PHase where you can make a difference and then a Phase which you never see, where heroes teach and train the newcommers Charachter levels should comprise the standard exp and then a training element for skills so that people who invest time in the game with respect to community can have a player nearly twice as powerful before they level. Based on learning within a time period, Levels and practiced skills is pretty much the best way to do this.
Level to define hit points/Mana and stats; Training and use of game elements for skills.So people who just fast level for the sake of it will at max have half the weapon skill limit of a well rounded charachter. In my view a level a week should be more than adequate with at least 100 levels in design.
This approach rewards people who really want to be part of a community and people who group and level fast can succeed but will never have the wisdom of long time served players who don't require win in a month.
The real challenge is developing games where the world and NPC AI provides challenging gameplay and a persistant world to develop in over years not 1 month and the end game. I have little interest in MMOs about competing against anything other than in game politics Realm vs Realm or the equivalent for the game scenario.
Raiding is a poor lazy design option pretty much along the same lines as PvP.
If I want to compete against people I will get the XBOX out. If I want to play with people then it's an MMO.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
here lies the problem:D what he meant to say is 60+ players in it:D
Here lies the problem....you couldn't get 60+ players to cooperate to do ANYthing these days. Some of us WERE around "back in the day," but that doesn't mean that modern raids don't have their own set of challenges. You just TRY to get 25 people to cooperate now and you'll see WHY there are no more 60+ player raids.
Originally posted by prizm1234
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
because of the asstard mouthbreathers you are forced to raid with
you know who i am talking about, the loud obnoxious fuckwits who are always screaming in vent, or who always talk down to people, or who make raiding the sole focus of their miserable lives
And that is the truth. There are far more reasons NOT to raid today (imho) than there are TO raid. This ^^^^ being chief.
here lies the problem:D what he meant to say is 60+ players in it:D
Here lies the problem....you couldn't get 60+ players to cooperate to do ANYthing these days. Some of us WERE around "back in the day," but that doesn't mean that modern raids don't have their own set of challenges. You just TRY to get 25 people to cooperate now and you'll see WHY there are no more 60+ player raids.
Originally posted by prizm1234
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.
because of the asstard mouthbreathers you are forced to raid with
you know who i am talking about, the loud obnoxious fuckwits who are always screaming in vent, or who always talk down to people, or who make raiding the sole focus of their miserable lives
And that is the truth. There are far more reasons NOT to raid today (imho) than there are TO raid. This ^^^^ being chief.
i'd say thats an overly pessimistic viewpoint of your fellow players.. .... only i've met a few of them so i can't...
but it does seem as though now more people play MMO's the number of said 'idiots' seems to be on the rise, at an exponential rate...
its one of the main reason, or possibly its the only real reason, why Guilds tend to only allow fellow guild members along on raids, casual or hardcore.... but these guys ruin any kind of cooperative play.. its not just raiding.. but just general adventuring kind of stuff... Guild raids ... tend to be fun.. and as you know the people your with, to some degree at least.. that tends to make it more fun...
but the bottom line is, only sandbox games don't need 'end game' raiding.. themeparks have it as a necessity for their continued existance..
My reasoning why raiding is an unpopular (and inefficient) mode of accessing endgame content for the newest and best gear in MMORPG's:
1) HUGE timesink.
2) New gear in next patch/expansion that makes now gear obsolete.
3) Raiding vs family/worktime/girlfriend-boyfriend-wife-fiance-friend time
4) Raids sometimes last too late.
5) If you can't raid for the best gear, then you can't hang with the best raiders to get the best gear so you can raid for the best gear so you can hang.... get the idea.
7) YET ANOTHER TANK AND SPANK BOSS?
8) :::pressing the wrong button by accident::: = wipe = everyone thinks Im a jerk and I'm not getting into the next raid.
9) Guild Leader: "C'mon moar dps, moar dots, moar....dots....hit it like you mean it!"
and last but not least---
10) Everything I raid for, all my gear, weapons, armor, rings, trinkets, necklaces, spells, mounts, reputation and any other sparkly, twinkly item really doesn't exist...I don't own it...it just isn't real. Everything is property of the company developing and running the game in general, its in the Terms of Service. So if two things happen being A) I decide not to pay my $15 a month to rent my toonor the servers get closed down then it all goes up in smoke.
Actually the question in it self poses a problem... I know a good deal of people who only do MMO's to raid. So the question is (if someone can some up with a good way to measure it) what does the broad community think. We all know what the 1% who hangs out in places like this think and/or like but to extrapolate that this 1% can be made a mirror of the entire community is in my mind streching it a bit.
Why is it so unpopular... I'd like to say due to two things...
A: It has been done before. so called MMO vets are getting burnt out
B: It is the "in" thing right now to know the old ways about as the 1% of the community searches for a new identity,
That is my opinion at least... and as such it can not be right or wrong, but it can be proved faulty tho and i invite anyone to to do that.
Comments
it's amusing to see people who admit to being in a "raiding guild" in WoW and thinks it's hardcore:D whats the avg raid size of WoW these days? 10 people? with biggest raids being 20 people?:D do WoW even make 40 man raids anymore?
how do people even qualify those numbers as being "raids" is really the issue here. back in the day, a 24 to 48man raid is just a pickup raid or something to do while you wait for the real raid to start:D a real raid doesnt even start till you going into the 60+ people range:D the "raids" of today's mmo are of such small size that there is no way the developer/designers can include enough complication and stress to push the players.
the REALLY complicated raids REQUIRE a large number of players because the "raid" would actually need to split into sub raids at different parts of the script. these days, the "sub raid" is consist of like 1 or 2 people:D whereas the old raids NEEDED a few "balanced groups" to tackle each sub raid while the main tank and cleric crew keeps the boss busy. heck in one of the anguish raids(Jelvan) in EQ1 you have to split the raids into 3 equal sized balanced sub raids with each side while not killing the sub boss faster then any other side. (within 5% of eachother) EACH side had over 20 players in it and we all had to coordinate with the raid leader to make sure we arent killing "too fast"
each side had "specialists" that really cant be transfered easily to another side(since their skills are fairly useless in other sides) even if 1 side is suffering. so if 1 side collapse, it's time to drag corpses:D
the higher the number of raiders, the more complicated a raid script can become. small raids are limited to what CAN be brought to the raid, hence the complexity of the script is limited to the resources that CAN be brought into the raid.
i'm not saying WoW doesnt have well written raids. i'm just saying it's only a watered down versions of what it CAN be.
Because it's the ultimate hamster wheel. Pointless, monotonous and too little reward for the effort except for the lucky one or two out of the forty who were suckered into playing that crappy kind of content.
Because raiding these days are about "Spend 5 hours grinding on trash mobs to get to enlargened version of the trash mob that takes 3 hours to kill."
Call me when raid bosses difficulty is based on something else than ridiculous amount of HP and some "special" attack that takes 15 seconds to figure out.
Raiding is far from unpopular, its kept EQ1 alive for quite a few years now, and is widely regarded as the primary focus of most other fantasy based MMO's.... so what will a GW2 have instead of raiding... PvP can be popular, but not widely popular, so that isnt a replacement, so the game must have some PVE content for the 'masses' even if its 'raiding' by another name.. the games longevity will suffer otherwise.. too often now we're seeing MMO's reduce group sizes to ridiculously small numbers, we need to see more games cater to group sizes of 20+ even GW2's WvW PvP would be a waste of time if it was limited to a group of 4 - 6 vs the same kinds of numbers.. its the same with PVE really.. or else why bother calling a game a MMO...
"Why is Raiding so unpopular to the MMORPG.COM Community?"
corrected
Even tho raids are as stupid as a goldfish, WoW abd Rift, probably two of the most popular MMO right now, proven raids are what the general crowd wants, and thats what they get. sucks to be us.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
In regardless of how big is a run, be it 5 man or 40, it's never good if all you do is repeative.
making a game tedious is not equal to fun
RIP Orc Choppa
For me I'm waiting for gw2 and jump over in a heart beat
RIP Orc Choppa
I've hated Raiding since EQ days, and have never Raided since. Why? Too many people drop out without warning, too many go /afk and then get pissy because they don't get a crack at the loot. Too many players turn up late or not at all. Too many whiners, looters, griefers and incompetents. I don't need that shit.
Raiding is not a fun continual enterprise it is a means to an end to loot up and move onto the next instances. I have had much fun in many games and they usually involve mass pvp where I find myself wanting to stay logged in to achieve objectives or to defend my last castle. I never ever feel that way about raiding.
Why many dislike raiding? The time and commitment required.
Raiding should be a rare occurrence that makes it exciting in which you would want to set aside time for it.
Currently to raid, you must put your life on hold and be there at certain times 3 nights a week. Yeah, no thanks. But I would rather not commit to a second job. I like to play games at times that suit me, not others.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I can't speak for the MMO community, but can speak for myself.
And the main reason I don't really like raids is mostly because I like these type of things much more in regular multiplayer games, while they don't have the ammount of people into a raid for me it's much more exciting in normal multiplayer games as I want a different experiance from MMORPG.
Example would be I want MMORPG to REALLY be a online part of singleplayer RPG's, with this I mean in singleplayer games we have NPC's that give missions, NPC's that have vendors/merchants, the MMORPG counterpart should have players who can give missions ( player crafter A needs X ammount of resources, combat player B is skilled to get these resources and in exchange crafter A can either craft some needs for the combatant or the combatant just makes somes money from it. Same goes for instead NPC shops, in a MMORPG we should have player run shops and very limited NPC run shops, and I could say so much more as to why I play or atleast wish to play a MMORPG, but this is just a small tip of what I like about this genre that could be like this instead of what I do see mostly is that this genre addepted to much to a singleplayer RPG experiance.
I don't care for raiding for many of the reasons previously listed by others. But if my recent experience with Rift is anything to go by raiding is more popular than ever with the typical MMO player, most folks seemed quite willing and eager to jump on the hamster wheel and start gear grinding. I guess its how they've been conditioned.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How many players fully engage in end-game raids ? A tiny portion of the playerbase (from 2% to 10% in best cases). End-game raid content that requires a lot of development resources which could be used for overall better gaming experience for all the players. And what for ? The idiotic routine of grinding a raid over and over for a piece of gear that will be useless in the next one.
I, for first, am one that tries to put effort and dedication in any game that I play (Eve player with over 2 years of alliance wars here) but the standard raid mechanics (as too much things in MMOs) are plainly stupid and repetitive and need drastic redesign and rethinking.
agree with repeat element and if its the only way in game to have best goodies its forcing. i call for freedom of choise peeps to obtain the best gear the way they want but in balancing element.
some may say its not a game anymore you see some peeps compare it real life elements they live and talk to pixels more than real life , so if you need a milk to your coffee you dont need 25 peeps around you in shop. and mostly only very organized guild can do it smoothly enough not to have comments like " i need to do this and this hey guys wait a second, " and raid time expands too long , annoying the peeps and result is anger. and whyt you gice example of 1vs1 / like 25 people.
there is obtions like 5 peeps even 10, many people like to just play in small groups wich everyhting can be done quite smoothly anyways without too many peeps going a loo every 2 mins.
i personally dont like raiding cause of those reasons and because its forcing , saying WHY NOT CAUSE ITS MMO peeps together and all, well its not anymore just a game isit?
another thing is ive little daugther aswell dont wanna waste whole evening lurking after some boots i may get if nobody ninjaloot them, and then leave my daughter without an interaction cause i NEED RAID.
dont get me wrong ive done my raiding quite abit so i can atleast say ive experienced it and not talking my opinion out of woods. yeah and now some may say, well you oviously had bad guild yeah yeah so you all say but the same problems lies everywhere afterall.
cheers for arena net trying something different without raid dungeons!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I don't think it's unpopular, but I never liked huge groups. It just feels less personal. Plus I would rather just play with my RL friends or people I'm really cool with.
Doing end-game raiding generally entails a "time" for raids set by the raid officer(s). Unfortunately for many, raiding can take several hours, and when you're TOLD to get on @ a specific time for a set number of hours it can feel like a second job.
Most notably, if you're not having fun with a game's raid system, it's most likely the developers OR your guild's fault. Raiding should NOT be a second job. HOWEVER, if you do not have serious raid times raids fall apart, you get lackluster raiders, and your overall raiding experience gets worse
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I imagine most people dont feel like running a multi hour dungeon with a bunch of d**** for a chance to get some gear, when they could be doing something thats actually fun instead.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Just my thoughts and opinion.
I like logging in and having a big raid to go to. I like being able to leave when I want because there are plenty of players ready to take my spot and if not, it's not a huge loss to everyone else. I do not like small group instances where if someone does not log in, you don't get to go at all. Bring the massive back to these games, please.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Raiding is not what an MMO should be about; With great design exponential learning curves the MMO world whould have pretty much an unlimited gaming cycle.
Most games cannot support this, they should provide ; Charachter Development ; Hero PHase where you can make a difference and then a Phase which you never see, where heroes teach and train the newcommers Charachter levels should comprise the standard exp and then a training element for skills so that people who invest time in the game with respect to community can have a player nearly twice as powerful before they level. Based on learning within a time period, Levels and practiced skills is pretty much the best way to do this.
Level to define hit points/Mana and stats; Training and use of game elements for skills.So people who just fast level for the sake of it will at max have half the weapon skill limit of a well rounded charachter. In my view a level a week should be more than adequate with at least 100 levels in design.
This approach rewards people who really want to be part of a community and people who group and level fast can succeed but will never have the wisdom of long time served players who don't require win in a month.
The real challenge is developing games where the world and NPC AI provides challenging gameplay and a persistant world to develop in over years not 1 month and the end game. I have little interest in MMOs about competing against anything other than in game politics Realm vs Realm or the equivalent for the game scenario.
Raiding is a poor lazy design option pretty much along the same lines as PvP.
If I want to compete against people I will get the XBOX out. If I want to play with people then it's an MMO.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Here lies the problem....you couldn't get 60+ players to cooperate to do ANYthing these days. Some of us WERE around "back in the day," but that doesn't mean that modern raids don't have their own set of challenges. You just TRY to get 25 people to cooperate now and you'll see WHY there are no more 60+ player raids.
And that is the truth. There are far more reasons NOT to raid today (imho) than there are TO raid. This ^^^^ being chief.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
i'd say thats an overly pessimistic viewpoint of your fellow players.. .... only i've met a few of them so i can't...
but it does seem as though now more people play MMO's the number of said 'idiots' seems to be on the rise, at an exponential rate...
its one of the main reason, or possibly its the only real reason, why Guilds tend to only allow fellow guild members along on raids, casual or hardcore.... but these guys ruin any kind of cooperative play.. its not just raiding.. but just general adventuring kind of stuff... Guild raids ... tend to be fun.. and as you know the people your with, to some degree at least.. that tends to make it more fun...
but the bottom line is, only sandbox games don't need 'end game' raiding.. themeparks have it as a necessity for their continued existance..
My reasoning why raiding is an unpopular (and inefficient) mode of accessing endgame content for the newest and best gear in MMORPG's:
1) HUGE timesink.
2) New gear in next patch/expansion that makes now gear obsolete.
3) Raiding vs family/worktime/girlfriend-boyfriend-wife-fiance-friend time
4) Raids sometimes last too late.
5) If you can't raid for the best gear, then you can't hang with the best raiders to get the best gear so you can raid for the best gear so you can hang.... get the idea.
7) YET ANOTHER TANK AND SPANK BOSS?
8) :::pressing the wrong button by accident::: = wipe = everyone thinks Im a jerk and I'm not getting into the next raid.
9) Guild Leader: "C'mon moar dps, moar dots, moar....dots....hit it like you mean it!"
and last but not least---
10) Everything I raid for, all my gear, weapons, armor, rings, trinkets, necklaces, spells, mounts, reputation and any other sparkly, twinkly item really doesn't exist...I don't own it...it just isn't real. Everything is property of the company developing and running the game in general, its in the Terms of Service. So if two things happen being A) I decide not to pay my $15 a month to rent my toonor
the servers get closed down then it all goes up in smoke.
Yeah...that does it for me.
Actually the question in it self poses a problem... I know a good deal of people who only do MMO's to raid. So the question is (if someone can some up with a good way to measure it) what does the broad community think. We all know what the 1% who hangs out in places like this think and/or like but to extrapolate that this 1% can be made a mirror of the entire community is in my mind streching it a bit.
Why is it so unpopular... I'd like to say due to two things...
A: It has been done before. so called MMO vets are getting burnt out
B: It is the "in" thing right now to know the old ways about as the 1% of the community searches for a new identity,
That is my opinion at least... and as such it can not be right or wrong, but it can be proved faulty tho and i invite anyone to to do that.
This have been a good conversation