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Dynamic events and socialising
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
in Guild Wars 2
Playing a bit of rift showed me that dynamic events make people work together, but it doesnt make them socialising. Where oldfashioned group quests atleast require people to communicate... Which often is the start of a social relationship. How will GW2 make people talk with eachother during these dynamic events?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
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I can't talk for everyone but i will try to more or less present my point of view on how i will play.
When playing around and doing DE i is likely that i will ask some player i meet while playing if they want to play with me and go somewhere etc. Most "friends" in-games are met at the start of the game when everyone is leveling so it would be beneficial to get some friends while playing.
We could experiment with different cross class combos to maximize our effectiveness and maybe tackle harder encounters. Playing together is also a lot more fun than just solo play ignoring everyone.
Either way i plan on talking to people, discussing the game, classes, mechanics, dynamic quests. I can see people playing and saying "holy cow that was awesome did you see that guys?" and suddenly more people join the convo and talk proceeds.
People will socialize as much as they decide to. ANet already gave as a lot by removing a lo of anti-social mechanics like kill stealing, mob tagging etc. With these out they indirectly made socializing more fun experience and less stressful.
if you give people the tools, they will use them, so what tools come with dynamic content to make socialising easier, rift does not have any tools, and socialising during rifts is minnimal..... It are all individuals and not a group attacking the content.Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I personally am tired of talking about this subject and would rather like if I could just play the game and figure out how everything works together. That said, I still feel that being able to revive anyone with any profession and heal everyone with every profession will definitely build more of a tight-knit community but hey.. what do I know...
This is not a game.
Same way I always did, I just talk to them.
Actually, I'm pretty sure almost all RPGs have local/zone chat and a group creating feature.
So yeah. The tools are there. You can't make it any easier to socialize than giving people the ability to say 'Hi!'
The problem is that people DON'T use the tools. The way many games create 'socializing' is by forcing and requiring it. All the tools to socialize a person could ever need is in MMOs already.
This is the consequence of mmo gamer mentality, specially WoW players I find, or ppl with a more extensive WoW background.
If you want to socialize, as you should, and I most certainly will, you dont need the the "tools" you claim.
Even in WoW now, if you need help to kill some elite(which you cant kill sometimes depending on you class) you will ask someone to group with you, they come, help you kill the stuff, and move their separate ways, only things stoping you from making conversation is you, and the general mentality that runs with WoW now.
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I think dynamic events will be the wrong place to look for socializing. Generally people will probably be too busy with the content to stop and type in their chat box. Unless there's something specific that needs to be said about said content, like "everyone to the right tower". Though I'm sure the events will let people know what they need to be doing at any specific time. So I can't see there really being a lot of socializing in the heat of the moment in these events.
That's not to say there won't be any socializing at all in those events though. I'm sure you will meet up with people that want to stick together as a group and run around doing dynamic events together. Though that will depend on the people themselves and not the game so much. Just like in any other MMO, you're going to find people that are very social and some that aren't.
Where I can see a lot of socializing going on though, is the mini-games they'll have in the towns. Apparently they have a bunch of mini-games that will be used as social hubs so to speak. Also another area you might see some socializing going on is WvWvW pvp. People will most likely be discussing strategies and what not for those events.
As far as I know, Dynamic Events had always been about getting people to group up and work together, not necessarily about socialising, the only socialising tool in any MMOG I have seen are chat boxes, for you to talk to others in channels, and voice chat, to chat with people. I sometimes don't get why people need to talk to others in game so desperately? I get that you occasionally will want to talk with people who are playing right next to you, but having chatrooms ingame and have mmo focus on that, I might as well just go on the interwebs and join a chatroom there.
The way I see it, MMOG is a social paltform, but not a socialising tool, online game is about people playing together, not talking together.
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I agree with the OP. Public quests (WAR), rifts (rift) are similar to dynamic events. They play to the zerg. In addition, the game is being promoted as very casual (ie no pressure, play as you want). So while, you personally may see a need to try and act as a leader, not many people will be so inclined. In addition, why would people need to listen and respond to you? if tactics are instinctual, ( like the whole I put down fire, now you go and use your axes to make fireball routine) then again, there is no need to discuss anything. Maybe in dungeons there may be a need to discuss strategy. But when there are 20-30 people who more than likely do not know each other, it would be very hard to get people to listen to and try an strat. Many people would probably just move on to other content.
Look at the effect of the cross server random dungeon finder. Before dungeon going was a social affair, you found a group, introduced yourself and went together, possibly discussing strats working towards a goal since you wanted to finish THIS dungeon and not want to spend another 15-60 min looking for another group. The fact that there was work involved in getting the group together made socializing needed. Even the most impatient person would work through wipes because they did not know when the next time they would be able to run said dungeon. They would teach/inform people how to get through dungeon so they can clear a dungeon.
With the advent of the cross-server random dungeon finder, groups were randomly made, no work required. If group was not to your liking, you could just requeue. It was that simple. Rarely do people talk in those groups, people just assume you know what you are doing, those who have no clue just tag along and try not to mess up. No one worries about what others think because they will likely not see them anymore.
Dynamic Events are going to be similar. You show up and can instantly join a group. No talking required. No introductions, you show up, you start killing mobs. if someone shouts out how to be a boss (move out of fire), you may or may not listen but no need to respond. You finish event and move on. Or even you try event, it does not go your way, you move on without talking to anyone. Many people will go the route of least resistance. They will often be talking in vent with their friends/guild while going through DE's and also have no reason to talk to anyone in the public group.
So I understand where the OP is coming from. What incentives are being given/offered to encourage interaction within a group at a DE?
Actually, few MMO's in recent years have forced anyone to socialize and predictably, they don't bother doing it.
In all fairness, the gameplay is so fast paced now there is no time, benefit, nor reason to step away from the action so it's understandable players eschew it.
Dynamic events won't increase socialization any more than dungeons do in a game like WOW (especially those joined through dungeon-finder).
To get real socialization back into MMO's you've got to create real incentive to do so, even if it seems rather "forced" in making them do it.
Edit: and it seems a large number of players aren't interested in socializing, (outside of their core group of friends or guildmates) so I doubt anything will change in the near future.
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Why should they have to give incentives to socialize? They're already giving you tools to play together with other people rather than trying to avoid them. They've come up with a way to bring people together and play together. I mean they can only take you so far.
They can't force everyone to say "Hi" if they don't want to, nor should they. If you want to be social, hey nobody's stopping you. But if the other people don't want to talk to you, why should they be forced to? If you're a social person and want to socialize, then that should be incentive enough for you. If not, to each their own. I mean wouldn't you want to know that somebody is socializing with you because they want to, and not because they have to?
To get real socialization back into MMOs it would probably be easier to target a smaller market that's more interested in that.
If an MMO forces socialization, people who have no interest in such will probably just go play another MMO that doesn't require it.
Anyway, I socialize plenty in MMOs. That's one of my problems. I'll spend more time talking and pointing at architecture or clothes than I will actually leveling up. So people can and do socialize. Just it's not something everybody does... or that most people do.
#1. The world is devoid of griefing. In a traditional MMO, your quests are isolating. You're doing them by yourself. You don't want to see other people because they might steal your kills or start an escort quest without you, loot the ground items you need, take that resource node. You literally DO NOT WANT TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE in a traditional MMO.
Even with Rifts, unless they've changed it to be fully cooperative, there's still competition, you're trying to tag mobs to get xp.
In GW2, everything is cooperative. You each get xp when you help kill a mob, you each get loot. You're rewarded for a DE just based on how much you participated. Everybody gets a shot at resource nodes. Other players cannot possibly hurt you.
In fact, because DEs scale up with more people, they become more chaotic and fun. You WANT to see other people in GW2.
#2. People can work together. Everybody can rez anybody else at any time. That right there is enough to start a conversation with a thanks. People can also use cross profession combos to work with each other. Sure, it could be visual, but it also opens a door to talking as well, and I don't mean just a thanks. It's going to be much easier in GW2 to tell if someone knows what they're doing or not. Are they setting you up for combos, are they taking advantage of your combos. Do they pay attention to their surroundings, do they rez you? It'll be a lot easier to see that someone might be a person you'll want to do a dungeon with later.
#3. Dynamic Events chain. This is huge. The whole problem with quests or rifts or dungeon finder is that there is no point to getting to know somebody if they're just going to leave. Even a rift might be something you're just doing on the way to a quest, or even if not, unless you follow someone you're not going to go to the next one together. With DEs there is absolutely no incentive to do anything other than just follow the chain. You're already there. So people stay in contact with each other for longer. There's also probably downtime between events. Downtime is huge because it gives people a chance to talk.
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I've parroted about this before but when one seriously takes a look at it. Some people will be social, some will not be. Trying to force someone to do something they don't like doesn't always work. Especially when it's not crucial to another goal IE socializing isn't required to get to end-game.
I don't see DE really making socializing more difficult but i don't see it promoting it either. What i mean by this is that the very nature of the DE may not foster a closer relationship with other people. Sure some might group up (this doesn't have to be formally) but those that don't want to socialize may not, they can just as easily do their own thing in the DE if they so choose.
Course to be fair this is the norm for MMOs recently. Those that do socialize will. those who don't, won't, and the game doens't really give you any reasons to beyond doing some force grouping which as people here have shown don't care for.
GW2 isn't actually causing any problems with socializing with their DE it just isn't solving or making it any easier for social people to socialize with non-social people.
While i agree that people need to take it upon themselves to be social. I think there should be mechanics involved that might...give em a nudge so to speak into talking to another person. The co-op between players is a good idea with spells thats moving in the right direction becuase your likely to make friends with someone who works well with your play style, so that may help some, making people more allys rather then opponents is another one but this may or may not promote socializing.
In the end people who are really anti-social just won't socialize unless they have to. When they have to you usually get these types of fantastic conversation pieces
Hi.
Kill boss?
I get armor +3 at end?
Thx.
That is basically the entire dialog for the group.
So forcing people like these to group with you isn't going to get you any worth while conversation pieces.
Does DE hinder socializing? No not really
Does DE promote socializng? No not really
Should it? might be nice but not really required.
The real question we should be asking ourselves i believe is how does one promote socializng within people? Cooperation is one i can think of, maybe getting people to stick to one thing for a while. Raids used to help this, but that was before they became a grind, i'm not really sure how you promote this via game mechanics. Rifts rift and wars public quests didn't really do much for talking which is why i'm concerned here to. Not because i think DE will hinder talking. it's just i can see the similarities between rifts rift, and wars public quest in GW2's DE with regards to how people talk to each otherm so it's a concern but to be completely honest, this has been my concern in past and future games where people simply don't talk that much. They don't slow down and talk to each other, they don't want to make friends, they just want the next piece of epic whatever, and the faster the combat gets, the more responsive it gets the less i can see people talking the more i can see peole just focusing on the action. This is one time i don't feel i have rose colored glasses on for the older times. But i personally feel that we are moving too fast. Quicker leveling, quicker aquisition of gear, shorter downtimes, we don't just sit down anymore and talk for a bit while waiting for a boat anymore (+5 cookies if anyone that finds that post I made)
Edit: changed quicker combat to shorter downtimes
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I'm not a very social person in an MMO and not because I don't like to talk to people, but rather because I'm always too caught up in what I'm doing. I am busy fighting a mob, or busy clearing out my inventory, or busy doing something. I work hard at efficiency, not wasting time or at least as little as possible. So if things just keep going, then so do I and that doesn't leave time for chat. Currently, playing APB, I never slow down to chat at all. That game keeps such a fast pace that socializing is non-existant. If I'm in a mission, then I have to work together with the other players so there needs to be some communication, but thats not socializing. No, for me to spend time actually being social, I need to stop. In Aion there was a dungeon called Fire Temple that had a half hour cooldown. A good group could finish it in less then that so there was usually 5 minutes or so of socializing between each run. That is the sort of mechanic that I need for socializing. A moment of waiting for a dungeon cooldown, ferry to arrive, boss to spawn, whatever.
I don't see how the Dynamic Events are going to make that happen. I think it's going to be a game that keeps a high pace for me. I'll work to complete one DE, and then on to the next cause it's right over there and it's going on RIGHT NOW.
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If people want to socialize, they will. You don't need to shoehorn them together. Ham-fisted mechanics that require people to be social with one another are as stupid and inane as the standard corporate "team-building" retreats that sociologists and consultants are constantly advocating.
Leave people the hell alone and the social aspects will emerge naturally. Just don't put anything in the way that actively prevents it. GW2 leaves all the doors open. Nothing prevents players from making friends and creating social circles, but nothing forces it either. Free choice is a bitch, ain't it?
Yep yep OP; i think that is the lesson we all get from Rift, and why spontanous grouping was so much asked (at least during beta when i played).
Cooperation doesn't mean coordination, people need some good comunication tools to raise cooperation to an upper level that would actually make it worth. I hope they are looking into this in GW2. But actually i think GW2 is slightly different, because if Rift put people together in a common goal, they actually had niether cooperation, neither coordination as a real concern. They also use some better tool in GW2, you don't have in Rift like healing object and circle you can place on the ground, so we will see how it work.
I'll probably laugh at and insult anyone who has died. Other than that, I'll just silently grind my teeth and hope that noobs will die off, making events easier.
Remember the article we had about "Lets solo together" well that is going to be what dynamic events are going to be like. You do not even have to socialize with anyone during a dynamic event if you choose. Sounds anti-social to me but that is the way ArenaNet wants it.
Nha anti social would mean you kill the guys just to fuck up the event, not the same. Working together is social, even if you will not talk. Anti social would be if you can't do the stuff with your friend because of a mechanism, that would be anti social too.
I like chatting when questing, but I don't like *talking* such as forced ventrilo and things like that.
I also like chatting in a small group, and not in a region or something like that. I'm worried about the implementation of this in GW2. Theres nothing I like more than getting into a small group (mostly with my friends, but sometimes I'll run random PUGs for fun) and chatting away while I go about a mission.
I don't think GW2 will really cater to that kind of play specifically... not because it doesn't have the functionality, but because it isn't necessary... and a lot of times, if it isn't necessary, players don't do it.
For example, if I'm on an event:
Me: "Hey guys, more centaurs to the north"
Guy 1 "North where?"
Guy 2 " Wheres north?"
Guy 3 " Noob"
Me: "We should hurry, or they'll burn down the town"
Guy 1 "Where are you?"
Guy 2 "I don't see centaurs"
Guy 4 "LOL"
Even with a shorter range and if everyone was in the same place, the events only really give you time to act while the events are going on, so you can't get a group together to do something specific, you just fall into a bunch of people when something happens. In contrast to regular questing or events, you get people together and do something specific. In GW2, you could get people together for events, but you never know what kind of content you'll end up doing.. it may not always mesh with what others are wanting to do, or it may be something they've already done, nobody knows, and you really can't choose what events you want.
In that way, it will cater to group interaction but not really cater to the social aspects of MMOs... everything will be fleeting, and if people aren't doing it while its happening, they won't get to do it again until it recycles, whenever that is. In that aspect, you won't be sitting there talking to other players, you'll do an event, and move on where theres something else to do.
I'm sorry, guys 1-4? I don't see any sort of game design that is going to make those people interesting to chat with. It's not like with some other type of content in Not-GW2, the MMORPG, suddenly it'll be.
MW "Hey guys, we're going to do this totally awesome thing."
Guy 1 "Indubitably. I dare say we're going to have a smashing time"
Guy 2 "Why, having suddenly been granted an inordinate amount of intelligence, I do believe I can come up with a clever plan to deal with this situation"
Guy 3 "I would never think to denigrate you, and would be delighted to have you share your wisdom with us.
MW "We should hurry, because did I forget to mention we're doing something awesome that isn't an event?"
Guy 1 "Absolutely! This certainly is wonderful. I really am feeling involved in this world, and it's stopping me from asking dumb questions."
Guy 2 "Look! A sparrow sitting on that tree! I certainly appreciate that the game designers are making such a wonderful world for me to practice my amazing and previously unfound observation skills upon."
Guy 4 "Haha. That makes me chuckle, because I too find simple delight in the pleasures of exploration."
Sorry. Guys 1-4 are twits. MMORPGs are full of twits. No content is going to make people who can't socialize properly in one way suddenly magically fun to be with. Even back in Asheron's Call, I found most people to be intolerable, even if I was forced to talk with them, because they couldn't converse their way out of a wet paper bag.
Whilst I am agreeing with you on this point, I feel in regular quests, you can choose a group more closely, and usually do it because of ...well... 1) class 2) proximity and 3) the need for completion of something. None of that is really in GW2, as event proximity could be anywhere in a region, classes only provide different skills but the results of said skills could be done different ways, and if you don't complete something, you just do whatever comes up next.
I don't need to stop and talk to any guys around me, because for one, trying to coordinate with guy 1 - 4 would likely be more challenging than the quest, and for B, my time is limited on how long I have to complete something, so spending some time getting together and coordinating randomly doesn't sound like something high on the list. At least, thats how I see it.
Oddly enough, I see it the other way around.
If you're forming a group to do a quest (Which, by the way, most of the time you don't ANYWAY in modern MMO design. Soloing is the order of the day, yes?), it's probably because the quest is hard enough it requires multiple people, right?
In that case, specific group makeup may be involved (This really pertains even more to raids). That means you're not teaming up with people because they're AWESOME (My primary reason for teaming up with people), it means you're teaming up with people because they have what you need. If you wait for somebody who has what you need AND who is awesome, that could be an incredibly long wait (During which period of time any other awesome useful team members you gathered up might abandon you for somebody who isn't so damn picky).
If you can group up with anybody and work together (The stated design goal of GW2), then that means you can pick people based off of how awesome they are, rather than whether or not they're the specific class and build you need.
So all people need is awesome-detection skills. The trick I usually pull is conversing with people. Standing around for a moment? Compliment somebody on their awesomely color coordinated outfit! Flatter somebody's brilliant timing on rescuing you while you're in downed state. Pat somebody on the back for helping you kick ass.
Anybody who responds with anything more than 'Lol rp noob', they might be awesome.
I guess I just don't have a problem, because I always use approximately the same method of finding people I like in MMORPGs, which is to talk to people until somebody talks back and engages me. So I actually approve of a design where I'm organically interacting with people pre-conversing, and where I can make impromptu groups with whoever seems awesome, and they should be able to gel and work to do awesome stuff together.
Just being crammed into a group with somebody because I need help? That's how I find out that I just teamed up with a 12 year old who wants to pretend he's smoking weed.
Or some horny 40 year old who hopes that me having a female avatar means I'm a nubile young lass who lives in his town and is inexplicably turned on by his mastery of internet slang.
I've been thinking exactly the same thing. Which leads to another possibilty - what if things turn out to be exactly the other way round?
People may group and socialize - and then, experienced groups will NOT want to have guy 1-4 automaticly grouped with them or anywhere near their event, for that matter. They'll tell them to "GTFO our event, noobs". And if they refuse to go somewhere else, things may get really ugly on a regular basis.
Will dynamic events really be more cooperative? Just a thought.
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