See now we are running into what i consider shady waters.
For value/fan-base not all can be quanitified in the same fashion.
Disney, Marvel, DC - You can't justifiy comparing this to Star Wars.
Due to it's nature of cross-over works, i don't consider DC an IP, i consider them a Company, Superman is an IP - and a big one at that, same for Marvel, Marvel is a brand, Spider-man is an IP, ect.
Same with Disney, i just don't feel like that can be applied to this... comparive notion of value, and fanbase.
I'm a Micky Mouse fan, but no a Minni mouse fan, i love Donald, and Goofy, i love the Aladdin moves, I HATED** Shrek, i giggled for hours at Finding Nemo, and i hated Toy Story.
Likewise,
Superman is my favorite Super-hero, but i hate the Flash, Hawkman, and Batman
I like Spiderman, but i dislike the Fantastic 4...
See what i'm saying? You can't bundle them, becuase you can be a fan of certain movies, comics, but not the other...
If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...
Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.
EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is -- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P
All the biggest games of all time are original IPs. You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.
? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).
Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
My point wasn't 'The biggest games of all times are the biggest IPs', it was 'The biggest IPs of all time aren't the biggest games'. It doesn't matter if Sims isn't as big of an overall IP as Star Wars, what matters is that as a GAME it sold amazingly well. ... and we're talking about SW:ToR as a game, right?
Which speaks directly to the 'SW:ToR will be the biggest MMO because Star Wars' thing.
KOTOR isn't even Bioware's best selling game, and that's Star Wars + Bioware.
My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.
Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name! You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.
How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars? By being a better game. Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR? Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post. Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW? Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'
If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...
Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.
EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is -- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P
Marvel universe and DC universe are IPs. All of the characters are in a single shared universe. Just because you like Superman and don't like Batman (Or whatever) doesn't invalidate that.
With Star Wars, It's perfectly possible to be a fan of the original trilogy and hate everything else... or the other way around. (Yeah, I've met some people who love movies 1-3 and hate the originals because they're not as AWESOME. These people are all children, but children are people too.) I have a friend who ONLY likes the second Star Wars movie made (Movie 5. I hate the numbering scheme, have I ever mentioned that?). That's pretty darn specific.
In fact... Batman and Superman are contemporaries. They have tea and stuff together. They hang out. They have team ups. They have shared comic books. They have illict affairs together (... no, wait, that was a fanfic...)
Most of the Star Wars universe, they're not even contemporaries. Darth Vader doesn't hang out with Jar-Jar Binks. Darth Revan doesn't punch Yoda. Star Wars is a SETTING style IP, just like Marvel and DC are. It's multiple authors/writers/artists spanning various people and places.
I think of Disney as a setting too, but I'll at least agree not everybody may see it the same way I do, so I'll semi-concede that one (Though I think the large amount of Disney princess materials my daughter has is pretty considerable proof that Belle really does go hang out with Cinderella so they can discuss boyfriends).
All the biggest games of all time are original IPs. You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.
? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).
Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
My point wasn't 'The biggest games of all times are the biggest IPs', it was 'The biggest IPs of all time aren't the biggest games'. It doesn't matter if Sims isn't as big of an overall IP as Star Wars, what matters is that as a GAME it sold amazingly well. ... and we're talking about SW:ToR as a game, right?
Which speaks directly to the 'SW:ToR will be the biggest MMO because Star Wars' thing.
KOTOR isn't even Bioware's best selling game, and that's Star Wars + Bioware.
My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.
Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name! You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.
How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars? By being a better game. Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR? Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post. Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW? Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'
Then you return to the core of my thread.
Was WoW a fluke? Were market conditions -Just- right for it's success.
This is the thing, when WoW first launched, the Genre was still a Niche Genre.
The game initially pulled fan from their Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo; IPs, and other MMORPG players looking for something new.
WoW was marketed in a mainstream fashion, for the first time every I saw an MMORPG Commercial, at first it was a few silly things, like a guy driving his Chevy truck into Onyxia’s mouth.
Then the celebrity commercials really cracked open the market.
IPs were pointless back then as the Genre was niche, and relatively unknown to mainstream gamers, a friend got me into Everquest, then I moved on to Lineage 2/Star Wars Galaxies, then WoW.
SWTORO Represents a huge IP, and not just any IP, it represents the sub-set Old Republic one of the more successful branches of the Star Wars Video Game Market, powered by a very successful company, and publisher.
The market conditions are EXTREMELY different.. unlike WoW, the fans of the Star Wars IP are going to play a key role in it’s success/failure.
if TOR fails, it will do nothing to the genre because the game is more of the same old. there are so many good MMO's coming out. however, TOR wont fail...many boxes will sell, but subs will probably gradually drop off during the subsequent months.
if GW2 fails on the other hand, it may have a profound effect because it's supposed to be the next evolution.
My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.
Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name! You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.
How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars? By being a better game. Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR? Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post. Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW? Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'
Like I said, I don't really disagree with your arguments. However, the OP wasn't just about the IP, as I said in my former post to which the OP responded, it's the combination and what they're trying to do what it's about:
1 of the biggest IP's + 1 of the biggest game developers + 1 of the biggest publishers + biggest budget
That's a combination that is hard to surpass. How many game companies are on the level of Bioware that can pull of quality games, and certainly of a magnitude that we're speaking of for SWTOR? Even more, how many bigger game publishing companies are there than Activision and EA? How many IP's are around that are bigger than Star Wars?
If this combination doesn't work and certainly with that budget, it'll certainly make a lot of investers and game companies think hard and twice whether they really want to take the risk of entering the MMO market.
Sure, in the end it's a game in itself that matters. But familiarity with the IP or the game company can have a lot more people pay attention initially than when those are lacking.
For the rest, like I said I don't disagree with the things you stated
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...
Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.
EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is -- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P
Marvel universe and DC universe are IPs. All of the characters are in a single shared universe. Just because you like Superman and don't like Batman (Or whatever) doesn't invalidate that.
With Star Wars, It's perfectly possible to be a fan of the original trilogy and hate everything else... or the other way around. (Yeah, I've met some people who love movies 1-3 and hate the originals because they're not as AWESOME. These people are all children, but children are people too.) I have a friend who ONLY likes the second Star Wars movie made (Movie 5. I hate the numbering scheme, have I ever mentioned that?). That's pretty darn specific.
In fact... Batman and Superman are contemporaries. They have tea and stuff together. They hang out. They have team ups. They have shared comic books. They have illict affairs together (... no, wait, that was a fanfic...)
Most of the Star Wars universe, they're not even contemporaries. Darth Vader doesn't hang out with Jar-Jar Binks. Darth Revan doesn't punch Yoda. Star Wars is a SETTING style IP, just like Marvel and DC are. It's multiple authors/writers/artists spanning various people and places.
I think of Disney as a setting too, but I'll at least agree not everybody may see it the same way I do, so I'll semi-concede that one (Though I think the large amount of Disney princess materials my daughter has is pretty considerable proof that Belle really does go hang out with Cinderella so they can discuss boyfriends).
Thats what i'm saying it's shady water..
Star Wars following a quanitifable time-line.. the stores take place according to that time line...
DC/Marvel is anything but standard....
Movies contradict other movies, T.V. shows contradict other T.V. Shows, ect.
You can't call DC/Marvel a Universe, it's a MULTIVERSE >.>
To me, Superman is an IP, Batman is an IP -- Superman/Batman Adventures is an IP.
There are companies that hold editing rights to DC/Marvel IPs that outside the normal comic book lines - Example The Ultimate Spider-man, The Amazing Spider-man.
All the different stories, universes, twists, including OTHER Marvel heros that are apart of the Spiderman IP, and vice-versa.
It's a mess, i know, thats why i'm saying we are walking into shady areas.
My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.
Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name! You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.
How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars? By being a better game. Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR? Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post. Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW? Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'
Like I said, I don't really disagree with your arguments. However, the OP wasn't just about the IP, as I said in my former post to which the OP responded, it's the combination and what they're trying to do what it's about:
1 of the biggest IP's + 1 of the biggest game developers + 1 of the biggest publishers + biggest budget
That's a combination that is hard to surpass. How many game companies are on the level of Bioware that can pull of quality games, and certainly of a magnitude that we're speaking of for SWTOR? Even more, how many bigger game publishing companies are there than Activision and EA? How many IP's are around that are bigger than Star Wars?
If this combination doesn't work and certainly with that budget, it'll certainly make a lot of investers and game companies think hard and twice whether they really want to take the risk of entering the MMO market.
Sure, in the end it's a game in itself that matters. But familiarity with the IP or the game company can have a lot more people pay attention initially than when those are lacking.
For the rest, like I said I don't disagree with the things you stated
Star Wars following a quanitifable time-line.. the stores take place according to that time line...
Actually, George Lucas himself has said that pretty much it's just the movies that are canon, and everything else is various shades of grey after that.
I have a whole bunch of REALLY old (80s?) Star Wars comics, that basically don't fit in at all.
I have an official Star Wars book where Luke and Leia totally make out and in retrospect (Since further details were released) it's kind of very creepy.
The many games of Star Wars often fit only loosely into canon, or are alternate retellings. They may use IP characters, but in ways that only vaguely fit.
There's a lot of people out there who pretty much agree that the first three movies are Star Wars, the second trilogy is Kinda' Star Wars, and it's all down hill from there. The hazards of having approximately 800 writers. (Possibly an exaggeration)
That's why the canon on something like Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion is so much tidier and prettier. Single author goes a long way towards making things clear.
It's also what I consider to be one of the huge advantages of mainstream Japanese comics over mainstream US comics, the fact that continunity in a small contained series works SO much better.
That's the main point I wanted to deal with, but on a side note (Which should be the main note, because it's the topic), sometimes companies come out of nowhere and revitalize an industry, or toss a whole new spin on a genre.
Look at Valve and Half Life. Whoever heard of those Valve guys before Half Life?
I actually think it's a fallacy that 'big budget' = 'quality'. It helps, certainly, but as creation tools become better, and depending upon the type of gameplay you do, I think it's perfectly possible for somebody to come up with an MMORPG design that ends up taking the world by storm, while simultaneously costing less. If your question is 'well, what type of MMORPG gameplay will be much better and cost much less', well... that just shows you aren't a cutting edge visionary game designer. (If it makes you feel better, neither am I)
... and just a look at AAA games like Aion and Rifts (Both of them made ridiculous amounts of profit) shows big companies that they can still make money. I guess it depends upon how you define 'fail'. My main problem with your original argument is that you seemed to define fail as 'not matching up to WoW'. I think SW:ToR could do considerably less well than WoW and still be considered a rousing, ridiculously profitable success in my eyes, and in the eyes of investors who want to see how to make crazy amounts of cash monies. (Oddly enough, being a quarter as successful as WoW, even on SW:ToR's budget, would be crazy amounts of money and a huge return on investment)
Star Wars following a quanitifable time-line.. the stores take place according to that time line...
Actually, George Lucas himself has said that pretty much it's just the movies that are canon, and everything else is various shades of grey after that.
I have a whole bunch of REALLY old (80s?) Star Wars comics, that basically don't fit in at all.
I have an official Star Wars book where Luke and Leia totally make out and in retrospect (Since further details were released) it's kind of very creepy.
The many games of Star Wars often fit only loosely into canon, or are alternate retellings. They may use IP characters, but in ways that only vaguely fit.
There's a lot of people out there who pretty much agree that the first three movies are Star Wars, the second trilogy is Kinda' Star Wars, and it's all down hill from there. The hazards of having approximately 800 writers. (Possibly an exaggeration)
That's why the canon on something like Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion is so much tidier and prettier. Single author goes a long way towards making things clear.
It's also what I consider to be one of the huge advantages of mainstream Japanese comics over mainstream US comics, the fact that continunity in a small contained series works SO much better.
That's the main point I wanted to deal with, but on a side note (Which should be the main note, because it's the topic), sometimes companies come out of nowhere and revitalize an industry, or toss a whole new spin on a genre.
Look at Valve and Half Life. Whoever heard of those Valve guys before Half Life?
I actually think it's a fallacy that 'big budget' = 'quality'. It helps, certainly, but as creation tools become better, and depending upon the type of gameplay you do, I think it's perfectly possible for somebody to come up with an MMORPG design that ends up taking the world by storm, while simultaneously costing less. If your question is 'well, what type of MMORPG gameplay will be much better and cost much less', well... that just shows you aren't a cutting edge visionary game designer. (If it makes you feel better, neither am I)
... and just a look at AAA games like Aion and Rifts (Both of them made ridiculous amounts of profit) shows big companies that they can still make money. I guess it depends upon how you define 'fail'. My main problem with your original argument is that you seemed to define fail as 'not matching up to WoW'. I think SW:ToR could do considerably less well than WoW and still be considered a rousing, ridiculously profitable success in my eyes, and in the eyes of investors who want to see how to make crazy amounts of cash monies. (Oddly enough, being a quarter as successful as WoW, even on SW:ToR's budget, would be crazy amounts of money and a huge return on investment)
I totally agree with you that big budget != quality.
In fact it seems that nowadays big budget often means an extremely polished safe bet.
For example, almost all of the big budget MMORPGs released in recent years have been pretty polished, but basically stayed with "tried and true" MMORPG mechanics instead of trying to innovate or deviate from the norm. I mean, it makes sense why they do it, because they look at the market and see that these mechanics make money, but it is frustrating that there isn't more innovation in many big budget games.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
Sorry I know this is off topic, but I found this funny and could not resist posting.
Now days I have read more than one time that D&D is the godfather of the fantasy RPG. The funny thing is if you read what the developers say when creating the first of the D&D worlds, they got a lot of inspiration and ideas from J. R. R. Tolkien (and give him a lot of credit for helping them develop the many worlds of D&D). So then shouldn’t Tolkien be the godfather of the fantasy RPG?
But then it gets even more interesting because if you read notes from Tolkien he says he got a lot of inspiration from Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and the bible. So then shouldn’t Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and the bible be the godfather of the fantasy genre.
While we are on the subject of star wars Lucas talks about his love for shows like Buck Rogers, and how it lead to the idea of creating a space opera for the big screen.
Why I find these funny is that when it comes down to it, no one can come up with an original thought that has not been said by some dude in 3 AD. It kind of makes the whole clone, or the who got inspiration from what argument kind of silly.
On Topic: I do not believe if Star Wars fails it will be the end of MMOs. It will mean the end of Bioware making MMOs, but there are still a lot of companies even now without Bioware’s success investing money in the market.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
Sorry I know this is off topic, but I found this funny and could not resist posting.
Now days I have read more than one time that D&D is the godfather of the fantasy RPG. The funny thing is if you read what the developers say when creating the first of the D&D worlds, they got a lot of inspiration and ideas from J. R. R. Tolkien (and give him a lot of credit for helping them develop the many worlds of D&D). So then shouldn’t Tolkien be the godfather of the fantasy RPG?
But then it gets even more interesting because if you read notes from Tolkien he says he got a lot of inspiration from Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and the bible. So then shouldn’t Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and the bible be the godfather of the fantasy genre.
While we are on the subject of star wars Lucas talks about his love for shows like Buck Rogers, and how it lead to the idea of creating a space opera for the big screen.
Why I find these funny is that when it comes down to it, no one can come up with an original thought that has not been said by some dude in 3 AD. It kind of makes the whole clone, or the who got inspiration from what argument kind of silly.
On Topic: I do not believe if Star Wars fails it will be the end of MMOs. It will mean the end of Bioware making MMOs, but there are still a lot of companies even now without Bioware’s success investing money in the market.
So, in retrospect, some Jesus guy is one of the masterminds behind fantasy.
I don't see how much interesting it gets. Without doubt, Tolkien created the fantasy RPG settings. Everbody and everything comes from inspirations, but it was he that had it, so it's his credit.
@ The title. I disagree completely. Maybe the "WoW" formula dies, but there would be much rejoicing at that.
You mean rejoicing at mmorpg.com? because i highly doubt that gamers in general who never even visit gaming boards could care less if WOW formula dies or lives as long as they are having fun with what they are playing.
I don't see how much interesting it gets. Without doubt, Tolkien created the fantasy RPG settings. Everbody and everything comes from inspirations, but it was he that had it, so it's his credit.
Anywhore, I don't see how this is on topic, lol.
That's the kind of thing somebody says if they haven't read enough books.
Conan, for example, predates Tolkien's books.
The Worm Ouroboros also predates Tolkien's books, and is high fantasy, rather than low fantasy (Like Conan). It has elements of it in D&D.
D&D owes as much to Jack Vance and The Dying Earth as it does to Tolkien. Even though Jack Vance comes after Tolkien, he has a very different sort of setting.
There are many other authors, like Fritz Leiber who D&D can be seen to have pulled from.
D&D also pulls a lot from various mythologies. Which, in fact, is largely where Tolkien pulled from.
You could make a case that Tolkien pretty much pioneered the modern high fantasy epic, but he certainly didn't invent fantasy RPG settings singlehandedly. They're a hodgepodge of several different sources, of which Tolkien is only one.
@ The title. I disagree completely. Maybe the "WoW" formula dies, but there would be much rejoicing at that.
You mean rejoicing at mmorpg.com? because i highly doubt that gamers in general who never even visit gaming boards could care less if WOW formula dies or lives as long as they are having fun with what they are playing.
Players looking forward to new games would be rejoicing as the industry realizes it has to evolve instead of following the same formula. If SWTOR were to fail, articles would be in practially all media outlets. Chances are, if you're a gamer, you look at a minimum of one media form, even if it is only PlayStation Magazine. If you're a MMORPG player, you would rejoice at the prospects of the industry changing instead of pushing the same things at us for years.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
Sorry I know this is off topic, but I found this funny and could not resist posting.
Now days I have read more than one time that D&D is the godfather of the fantasy RPG. The funny thing is if you read what the developers say when creating the first of the D&D worlds, they got a lot of inspiration and ideas from J. R. R. Tolkien (and give him a lot of credit for helping them develop the many worlds of D&D). So then shouldn’t Tolkien be the godfather of the fantasy RPG?
On Topic: I do not believe if Star Wars fails it will be the end of MMOs. It will mean the end of Bioware making MMOs, but there are still a lot of companies even now without Bioware’s success investing money in the market.
Of course D&D borrowed a lot of ideas and inspiration from Tolkien's works, everybody knows that , but we were talking IP's here and the games that were made with that IP.
While since the '80s there have been quite a number of games that took place in Middle Earth, there have been even more that happened in the D&D universe.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
@ The title. I disagree completely. Maybe the "WoW" formula dies, but there would be much rejoicing at that.
You mean rejoicing at mmorpg.com? because i highly doubt that gamers in general who never even visit gaming boards could care less if WOW formula dies or lives as long as they are having fun with what they are playing.
Players looking forward to new games would be rejoicing as the industry realizes it has to evolve instead of following the same formula. If SWTOR were to fail, articles would be in practially all media outlets. Chances are, if you're a gamer, you look at a minimum of one media form, even if it is only PlayStation Magazine. If you're a MMORPG player, you would rejoice at the prospects of the industry changing instead of pushing the same things at us for years.
And yet we don't know if these so called players are really unhappy with current crop of games? are they really looking for this 'evolution'? too many assumptions and guesses are thrown around here. Using website like mmorpg.com which makes a very little percentage of gamers worldwide as a bases for this much needed evolution is illogical.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
Sorry I know this is off topic, but I found this funny and could not resist posting.
Now days I have read more than one time that D&D is the godfather of the fantasy RPG. The funny thing is if you read what the developers say when creating the first of the D&D worlds, they got a lot of inspiration and ideas from J. R. R. Tolkien (and give him a lot of credit for helping them develop the many worlds of D&D). So then shouldn’t Tolkien be the godfather of the fantasy RPG?
On Topic: I do not believe if Star Wars fails it will be the end of MMOs. It will mean the end of Bioware making MMOs, but there are still a lot of companies even now without Bioware’s success investing money in the market.
Of course D&D borrowed a lot of ideas and inspiration from Tolkien's works, everybody knows that , but we were talking IP's here and the games that were made with that IP.
While since the '80s there have been quite a number of games that took place in Middle Earth, there have been even more that happened in the D&D universe.
If SW;TOR fails.. it might even be the push that Bioware needs to turn themselves around, lately their games have been somewhat substandard, Dragon Age 2 was probably one of their worst ever games, even Mass Effect, seems to be on a downward spiral, Mass Effect 1 was .. imo.. a great game, Mass Effect 2, was fairly good, but lacked a lot of things that made Mass Effect 1 great... i can only hope that Mass Effect 3, doesnt suffer the same degree of degredation... always in the past, i've bought Bioware games, Dragon Age 2 was the first one, that i avoided.. i hope.. that SW;TOR will be the last one i avoid buying.. so.. i am hoping in a way that SW;TOR fails.. as it might end up reviving the company..
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This game failing would be great for the genre. It would force developers to stop copy and pasting wow 's combat/quest system into "new" games over and over and have different systems like Asheron's Call's and force some innovation.
This game failing would be great for the genre. It would force developers to stop copy and pasting wow 's combat/quest system into "new" games over and over and have different systems like Asheron's Call's and force some innovation.
Once again WoW did not invent point and click.
And you still got absolutely no clue what this game is like because you never played it.
Comments
See now we are running into what i consider shady waters.
For value/fan-base not all can be quanitified in the same fashion.
Disney, Marvel, DC - You can't justifiy comparing this to Star Wars.
Due to it's nature of cross-over works, i don't consider DC an IP, i consider them a Company, Superman is an IP - and a big one at that, same for Marvel, Marvel is a brand, Spider-man is an IP, ect.
Same with Disney, i just don't feel like that can be applied to this... comparive notion of value, and fanbase.
I'm a Micky Mouse fan, but no a Minni mouse fan, i love Donald, and Goofy, i love the Aladdin moves, I HATED** Shrek, i giggled for hours at Finding Nemo, and i hated Toy Story.
Likewise,
Superman is my favorite Super-hero, but i hate the Flash, Hawkman, and Batman
I like Spiderman, but i dislike the Fantastic 4...
See what i'm saying? You can't bundle them, becuase you can be a fan of certain movies, comics, but not the other...
If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...
Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.
EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is
-- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P
My point wasn't 'The biggest games of all times are the biggest IPs', it was 'The biggest IPs of all time aren't the biggest games'. It doesn't matter if Sims isn't as big of an overall IP as Star Wars, what matters is that as a GAME it sold amazingly well. ... and we're talking about SW:ToR as a game, right?
Which speaks directly to the 'SW:ToR will be the biggest MMO because Star Wars' thing.
KOTOR isn't even Bioware's best selling game, and that's Star Wars + Bioware.
My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.
Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name! You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.
How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars? By being a better game. Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR? Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post. Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW? Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'
Marvel universe and DC universe are IPs. All of the characters are in a single shared universe. Just because you like Superman and don't like Batman (Or whatever) doesn't invalidate that.
With Star Wars, It's perfectly possible to be a fan of the original trilogy and hate everything else... or the other way around. (Yeah, I've met some people who love movies 1-3 and hate the originals because they're not as AWESOME. These people are all children, but children are people too.) I have a friend who ONLY likes the second Star Wars movie made (Movie 5. I hate the numbering scheme, have I ever mentioned that?). That's pretty darn specific.
In fact... Batman and Superman are contemporaries. They have tea and stuff together. They hang out. They have team ups. They have shared comic books. They have illict affairs together (... no, wait, that was a fanfic...)
Most of the Star Wars universe, they're not even contemporaries. Darth Vader doesn't hang out with Jar-Jar Binks. Darth Revan doesn't punch Yoda. Star Wars is a SETTING style IP, just like Marvel and DC are. It's multiple authors/writers/artists spanning various people and places.
I think of Disney as a setting too, but I'll at least agree not everybody may see it the same way I do, so I'll semi-concede that one (Though I think the large amount of Disney princess materials my daughter has is pretty considerable proof that Belle really does go hang out with Cinderella so they can discuss boyfriends).
Then you return to the core of my thread.
Was WoW a fluke? Were market conditions -Just- right for it's success.
This is the thing, when WoW first launched, the Genre was still a Niche Genre.
The game initially pulled fan from their Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo; IPs, and other MMORPG players looking for something new.
WoW was marketed in a mainstream fashion, for the first time every I saw an MMORPG Commercial, at first it was a few silly things, like a guy driving his Chevy truck into Onyxia’s mouth.
Then the celebrity commercials really cracked open the market.
IPs were pointless back then as the Genre was niche, and relatively unknown to mainstream gamers, a friend got me into Everquest, then I moved on to Lineage 2/Star Wars Galaxies, then WoW.
SWTORO Represents a huge IP, and not just any IP, it represents the sub-set Old Republic one of the more successful branches of the Star Wars Video Game Market, powered by a very successful company, and publisher.
The market conditions are EXTREMELY different.. unlike WoW, the fans of the Star Wars IP are going to play a key role in it’s success/failure.
in direct response to OP:
if TOR fails, it will do nothing to the genre because the game is more of the same old. there are so many good MMO's coming out. however, TOR wont fail...many boxes will sell, but subs will probably gradually drop off during the subsequent months.
if GW2 fails on the other hand, it may have a profound effect because it's supposed to be the next evolution.
Like I said, I don't really disagree with your arguments. However, the OP wasn't just about the IP, as I said in my former post to which the OP responded, it's the combination and what they're trying to do what it's about:
1 of the biggest IP's + 1 of the biggest game developers + 1 of the biggest publishers + biggest budget
That's a combination that is hard to surpass. How many game companies are on the level of Bioware that can pull of quality games, and certainly of a magnitude that we're speaking of for SWTOR? Even more, how many bigger game publishing companies are there than Activision and EA? How many IP's are around that are bigger than Star Wars?
If this combination doesn't work and certainly with that budget, it'll certainly make a lot of investers and game companies think hard and twice whether they really want to take the risk of entering the MMO market.
Sure, in the end it's a game in itself that matters. But familiarity with the IP or the game company can have a lot more people pay attention initially than when those are lacking.
For the rest, like I said I don't disagree with the things you stated
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Thats what i'm saying it's shady water..
Star Wars following a quanitifable time-line.. the stores take place according to that time line...
DC/Marvel is anything but standard....
Movies contradict other movies, T.V. shows contradict other T.V. Shows, ect.
You can't call DC/Marvel a Universe, it's a MULTIVERSE >.>
To me, Superman is an IP, Batman is an IP -- Superman/Batman Adventures is an IP.
There are companies that hold editing rights to DC/Marvel IPs that outside the normal comic book lines - Example The Ultimate Spider-man, The Amazing Spider-man.
All the different stories, universes, twists, including OTHER Marvel heros that are apart of the Spiderman IP, and vice-versa.
It's a mess, i know, thats why i'm saying we are walking into shady areas.
Actually, George Lucas himself has said that pretty much it's just the movies that are canon, and everything else is various shades of grey after that.
I have a whole bunch of REALLY old (80s?) Star Wars comics, that basically don't fit in at all.
I have an official Star Wars book where Luke and Leia totally make out and in retrospect (Since further details were released) it's kind of very creepy.
The many games of Star Wars often fit only loosely into canon, or are alternate retellings. They may use IP characters, but in ways that only vaguely fit.
There's a lot of people out there who pretty much agree that the first three movies are Star Wars, the second trilogy is Kinda' Star Wars, and it's all down hill from there.
The hazards of having approximately 800 writers. (Possibly an exaggeration)
That's why the canon on something like Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion is so much tidier and prettier. Single author goes a long way towards making things clear.
It's also what I consider to be one of the huge advantages of mainstream Japanese comics over mainstream US comics, the fact that continunity in a small contained series works SO much better.
That's the main point I wanted to deal with, but on a side note (Which should be the main note, because it's the topic), sometimes companies come out of nowhere and revitalize an industry, or toss a whole new spin on a genre.
Look at Valve and Half Life. Whoever heard of those Valve guys before Half Life?
I actually think it's a fallacy that 'big budget' = 'quality'. It helps, certainly, but as creation tools become better, and depending upon the type of gameplay you do, I think it's perfectly possible for somebody to come up with an MMORPG design that ends up taking the world by storm, while simultaneously costing less. If your question is 'well, what type of MMORPG gameplay will be much better and cost much less', well... that just shows you aren't a cutting edge visionary game designer. (If it makes you feel better, neither am I)
... and just a look at AAA games like Aion and Rifts (Both of them made ridiculous amounts of profit) shows big companies that they can still make money. I guess it depends upon how you define 'fail'. My main problem with your original argument is that you seemed to define fail as 'not matching up to WoW'. I think SW:ToR could do considerably less well than WoW and still be considered a rousing, ridiculously profitable success in my eyes, and in the eyes of investors who want to see how to make crazy amounts of cash monies. (Oddly enough, being a quarter as successful as WoW, even on SW:ToR's budget, would be crazy amounts of money and a huge return on investment)
I totally agree with you that big budget != quality.
In fact it seems that nowadays big budget often means an extremely polished safe bet.
For example, almost all of the big budget MMORPGs released in recent years have been pretty polished, but basically stayed with "tried and true" MMORPG mechanics instead of trying to innovate or deviate from the norm. I mean, it makes sense why they do it, because they look at the market and see that these mechanics make money, but it is frustrating that there isn't more innovation in many big budget games.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Sorry I know this is off topic, but I found this funny and could not resist posting.
Now days I have read more than one time that D&D is the godfather of the fantasy RPG. The funny thing is if you read what the developers say when creating the first of the D&D worlds, they got a lot of inspiration and ideas from J. R. R. Tolkien (and give him a lot of credit for helping them develop the many worlds of D&D). So then shouldn’t Tolkien be the godfather of the fantasy RPG?
But then it gets even more interesting because if you read notes from Tolkien he says he got a lot of inspiration from Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and the bible. So then shouldn’t Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and the bible be the godfather of the fantasy genre.
While we are on the subject of star wars Lucas talks about his love for shows like Buck Rogers, and how it lead to the idea of creating a space opera for the big screen.
Why I find these funny is that when it comes down to it, no one can come up with an original thought that has not been said by some dude in 3 AD. It kind of makes the whole clone, or the who got inspiration from what argument kind of silly.
On Topic: I do not believe if Star Wars fails it will be the end of MMOs. It will mean the end of Bioware making MMOs, but there are still a lot of companies even now without Bioware’s success investing money in the market.
@ The title. I disagree completely. Maybe the "WoW" formula dies, but there would be much rejoicing at that.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
So, in retrospect, some Jesus guy is one of the masterminds behind fantasy.
Holy waffles.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I don't see how much interesting it gets. Without doubt, Tolkien created the fantasy RPG settings. Everbody and everything comes from inspirations, but it was he that had it, so it's his credit.
Anywhore, I don't see how this is on topic, lol.
Future: WoD, SWTOR, Arche Age, Tera (maybe), GW2.
Present: None.
Past: Eve, RIFT, UO, bunch of F2P crap.
From what I've seen so far if this game does fail... oh well. The genre does not rest on the shoulders of one game.
(\ /) ?
( . .)
c('')('')
You mean rejoicing at mmorpg.com?
because i highly doubt that gamers in general who never even visit gaming boards could care less if WOW formula dies or lives as long as they are having fun with what they are playing.
That's the kind of thing somebody says if they haven't read enough books.
Conan, for example, predates Tolkien's books.
The Worm Ouroboros also predates Tolkien's books, and is high fantasy, rather than low fantasy (Like Conan). It has elements of it in D&D.
D&D owes as much to Jack Vance and The Dying Earth as it does to Tolkien. Even though Jack Vance comes after Tolkien, he has a very different sort of setting.
There are many other authors, like Fritz Leiber who D&D can be seen to have pulled from.
D&D also pulls a lot from various mythologies. Which, in fact, is largely where Tolkien pulled from.
You could make a case that Tolkien pretty much pioneered the modern high fantasy epic, but he certainly didn't invent fantasy RPG settings singlehandedly. They're a hodgepodge of several different sources, of which Tolkien is only one.
Players looking forward to new games would be rejoicing as the industry realizes it has to evolve instead of following the same formula. If SWTOR were to fail, articles would be in practially all media outlets. Chances are, if you're a gamer, you look at a minimum of one media form, even if it is only PlayStation Magazine. If you're a MMORPG player, you would rejoice at the prospects of the industry changing instead of pushing the same things at us for years.
Of course D&D borrowed a lot of ideas and inspiration from Tolkien's works, everybody knows that
, but we were talking IP's here and the games that were made with that IP.
While since the '80s there have been quite a number of games that took place in Middle Earth, there have been even more that happened in the D&D universe.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And yet we don't know if these so called players are really unhappy with current crop of games? are they really looking for this 'evolution'? too many assumptions and guesses are thrown around here. Using website like mmorpg.com which makes a very little percentage of gamers worldwide as a bases for this much needed evolution is illogical.
If SW;TOR fails.. it might even be the push that Bioware needs to turn themselves around, lately their games have been somewhat substandard, Dragon Age 2 was probably one of their worst ever games, even Mass Effect, seems to be on a downward spiral, Mass Effect 1 was .. imo.. a great game, Mass Effect 2, was fairly good, but lacked a lot of things that made Mass Effect 1 great... i can only hope that Mass Effect 3, doesnt suffer the same degree of degredation... always in the past, i've bought Bioware games, Dragon Age 2 was the first one, that i avoided.. i hope.. that SW;TOR will be the last one i avoid buying.. so.. i am hoping in a way that SW;TOR fails.. as it might end up reviving the company..
? What has your comment to do with my post that you quoted?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Can we please stop with the fanboy'ish style of posting?
If you don't choose my game; the industry is DOOMED.
Really?
This game failing would be great for the genre. It would force developers to stop copy and pasting wow 's combat/quest system into "new" games over and over and have different systems like Asheron's Call's and force some innovation.
Once again WoW did not invent point and click.
And you still got absolutely no clue what this game is like because you never played it.