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(Harsh Death Penalty) You like it because of the Rush you feel! well why not self inflict your penal
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
For the most part it depends on what sort of death penalty you are talking about. If you are talking about equipment destruction/looting then it's what makes and breaks a true player driven economy. Without item destruction crafting in MMO's is for the most part rather pointless due to the fact that materials are always worth much more than any item crafted from them, and why make something drops are better. If you are talking about XP losses then I don't particularly care for that one myself but generally it is for the "rush" things tend to get very exiting when you know that defeat actually costs you something.
The answers are actually quite simple:
A: Self inflicted penalties simply do not have the same effect because you always have the choice to chicken out on yourself. The rush wouldn't be the same as well because you chose when to do it and when not to.
B: Like the poster above pointed out, gear/equipment losses can be the reason why a player-sustained economy actually works.
C: It wouldn't allow me to loot the other guy?
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
So you go to a dungeon, wipe and after hitting the respawn button the tanks says: "Sorry guys, I inflict myself a harsh penalty and after ...*insert harsh penalty here*.. will take me 30 minutes to come back".
Does not work. In group situations would penalize the rest of the group too and that guy would be blacklisted really fast.
Personalized penalties simply won't work on a multiplayer setting.
Keep in mind I am not a hardcore penalty fan, I no longer have the time for one-two hours corpse runs and things like that, but mmorpgs are moving to the easier side too much lately (in my opinion).
I once played through all GW with a friend, perma-death style, it took us about 3 attempts but we made it. See you in hc D3
EDIT: Also I don't like self inflicted death penalties, or item destruction because to me that's just pointless. Most of the thrill in full loot systems is gearing up and attempting to chase down that bloke who just killed you.
Oh look, it's this thread again.
I tell you what, let's make things even simpler: next time you join a game which has a death penalty, why dont you just delete your character every time you die and create a new one with exactly the same name. Then you can pretend you never lost anything.
Seriously, it obviously offends you in principle that some people want to play a different style of game than the kind you like. Why not let them play their game, and you play one that does not have such a feature? Do you feel that you're entitled to join a game that others are already playing and whine until the rules are changed to suit you?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Because it wouldn't be the same game.
Bad idea because self infliction is not the fun way to implement this feature and never will be.
You could say the same about players who gank/grief. They force it on others (at times) to satisfy their "rush"...even if the other players aren't willing participants. Of course also...most games you can also unflag yourself. So it's a two way road. I know I said I wanted a stiffer death penalty...I wouldn't mind if an MMO gave the option to have it turned on or not.....if it could work. But as someone above pointed out, it would make it difficult for players to use teamwork etc if there is a wipe or they are playign on different rule sets.
That is the major problem of the current MMO generation. The answer sadly is yes.
Because it doesn't mean nearly as much unless the game is actually designed around it. For example a BoP gear grind game + perma death does not work. A BoA or BoG (Bind to Guild) game + perma death could work. Or a game where generally gear was a very small part of your progression.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
It's really simple to explain.
Games are designed around specific game mechanics all working together. A game with no death penalty will be designed to have death as a common occurance since it's not a big deal. The reverse can be said for games with a harsh death penalty.
You also have to factor in the need for everyone to be on an even playing field while grouping. Sure, I could delete my character after I died, but unless everyone else in my group is going to have to do the same thing it loses any meaning or sense of danger.
Also the rest of my group isn't going to be nearly as careful as I am unless they suffer the same penalities that I will.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It wont give the "rush" since it's optional, if you need to go to login screen and delete your char your self. Maybe a system would satisfy everyone where you can check a box in options "Death will be permanent unless someone resurrect you 5 minutes after after the grand failure" or even without the resurrect part. Then it's optional for everyone who play, but if you use it you'll have the rush in combat since you know the consequences, maybe add a little XP bonus if you decide to use this system to even it out a bit or some other feature
This wont ofcourse satisfy those who want a harsh death penalty just to grief others, but I couldnt care less about them to begin with so whatever.
Very good points, however all that has been said in the threads he's referring to as well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Something occurred to me while reading all these boards and forums that if an option were to be placed individually on everyone's account where the game would delete your character everytime you died and you have to agree to it three times before the option was effective ,there would still be folk who would come on the forums and scream that they were not given a chance to change their minds after their character was deleted .
Unfortunately the human mind is very fickle and even when we decide something we may well decide at some point that is not what we want . So often we want the power to decide taken away from us . Strange but this here is an example of it.
You illustrate perfectly why an option wont work. The game needs to be designed from the ground up with perma-death in mind.
I'd dare say it is virtually impossible to grind an entire set of pvp gear in rift or wow without dying because the game is designed around you dying every 2-5 minutes. You cannot raid through tiers and not die again because the game is designed around you dieing at least as you are learning the encounters.
In games with perma-death or even severe penalty such as Vanguard where you leave a corpse down at the bottom of a fully respawned dungeon, there are strategies you employ to ... not die. You don't bring PuGs for Ragnaros / Hammergnell. You dont even enter these dungeons until you have met certain requirements. There are also abilities in these games which make it possible for you to avoid death such as evacs and FD/Ressers to name a few.
This is just another aspect of community building that has been destroyed by instant gratification / entitlement gaming, and no cute little check box or BS post about deleting characters when you die is going to change it.
It's actually less about perma-death and more about real MMO gaming for a lot of people.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Are you actually comparing decision behaviour regarding what someone desires and decision behaviour regarding what someone wishes to avoid... and then inferring some level of hypocrisy?
Player wants a game with a harsh penalty for failure.
Player plays the game in such a way as to avoid such penalty and will choose whatever path prevents or lessens the penalty.
There's nothing fickle about that. The latter is completely in line with the former unless the player wanted the mechanic put in for masochistic reasons. If that were the case, then it isn't a penalty for failure, rather a reward for success at the player's chosen objective.
If you really feel that wanting a penalty for failure and then going out of one's way to avoid it is a sign of some kind of psychological dichotomy then I fear that the concept of challege may be lost on you at any level.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The argument doesn't really follow. I like crafting in an MMO. I enjoy PvP in general, so I am inflicting that on others. A 'harsh' penalty is something some of us enjoy and thus want an MMO to reflect that. Since there are so few MMOs that have this, I would reverse the argument and say that those who don't like death penalties are inflicting their standards on those who like some teeth when it comes to dying.
To desire a certain feature isn't inflicing anything on anyone. Otherwise the argument would apply to any feature our there. Instead its a desire to have a feature that one enjoys. As such, its like any other game... if you don't like that aspect, don't play it. Hell, there are people crying that Huttball is ruining SWTOR and they refuse to play it because of that.
Lol, I don't know if i'm stating my position very well, just got up, still a little foggy/
I self identify as a monkey.
In a game with a harsh death penalty once you have achieved a decent level of experience or nice skill set you've probably had to get damned good at said game else you would still be poking around the newbie areas. When you go and group with someone else within the game around your skill level you can be reasonably sure they've learned to excel within the game environ as well, therefore, because of the games death penalty you already know when you meet another strong player that they are competent enough to handle further challenges (or else should be).
Just another thing I thought I would point out... To those of us who actually enjoy a challenge the harsh penalties aren't looked at as suffering but more as an incentive to not F up. Knowing just how sour things can turn but prevailing anyway definatly adds to the enjoyment of a game imho.
Because a self inflicted death penalty provides no 'rush' due to the fact that at the end of the day you can choose not to apply it. Furthermore the 'rush' does not come from the punishment in and of itself, it is due to the hightened sense the threat of that potential punishment provides.
If you cannot see the difference between the added tension mid task of knowing failure has a price, and simply punishing yourself after the event for failure, then it is no wonder you do not understand the issue at hand.
As for forcing that choice on other players, given the vast majority of games do not have a harsh penalty and given the fact that no one is forcing someone at gun pioint to play a game with a harsh penalty, I fail to see why some people asking for a few games with a harsh penality is an issue.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You do realize that the "cute checkbox" option is voiced out basically because the harsh death penalty fans keep asking the option for mainstream themepark mmorpgs. I wouldnt even comment on the matter if the discussion was kept at the correct camp and about games that support it. As long as people keep asking the big penalty to games that does not support it, the "cute checkbox" is the best bet. Better option ofcourse is to just play a game that has mechanics the players wants and stop asking things to games that are not intented.
I'd dare say it is virtually impossible to grind an entire set of pvp gear in rift or wow without dying because the game is designed around you dying every 2-5 minutes. You cannot raid through tiers and not die again because the game is designed around you dieing at least as you are learning the encounters.
In games with perma-death or even severe penalty such as Vanguard where you leave a corpse down at the bottom of a fully respawned dungeon, there are strategies you employ to ... not die. You don't bring PuGs for Ragnaros / Hammergnell. You dont even enter these dungeons until you have met certain requirements. There are also abilities in these games which make it possible for you to avoid death such as evacs and FD/Ressers to name a few.
This is just another aspect of community building that has been destroyed by instant gratification / entitlement gaming, and no cute little check box or BS post about deleting characters when you die is going to change it.
It's actually less about perma-death and more about real MMO gaming for a lot of people.
You do realize that the "cute checkbox" option is voiced out basically because the harsh death penalty fans keep asking the option for mainstream themepark mmorpgs. I wouldnt even comment on the matter if the discussion was kept at the correct camp and about games that support it. As long as people keep asking the big penalty to games that does not support it, the "cute checkbox" is the best bet. Better option ofcourse is to just play a game that has mechanics the players wants and stop asking things to games that are not intented.
I dont see people asking for a cute checkbox. I see people asking for a harsh death penalty. The checkbox is NOT the best option. It is not even a good option. It is a stupid knee jerk reaction option dreampt up to try to pacify, not satisfy. A perma-death penatly in warcraft is just asinine. There is no point to it. The game is design so far on the opposite end of the spectrum, it would never work. Warcraft could do with a much harsher penalty, but thats not going to happen either because they are committing to things like "puggable raids" now .. /facepalm
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Easy its sorts out the instant gratificatio, me now and make every MMORPG even more fps like crowd. So harsh death penalties are doing two very important things:
people are learning risk versus reward and in the long run are becoming better players.
If you weed out the above mentioned crowd you are getting a nicer, more healthy community meaning, you can use the official forum finally again an don't have to turn off the general or trade channel.
So what some [mod edit] call harsh I call it neccessary and immersion enhancement. If people can't deal with xp lost guess what? Play better and dy less maybe just maybe ask others for help and rethink your playstyle but I guess most people nowadays are too busy with talking about off topic stuff in TS instead of learning to play..
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Its quite simple: a game designed around light (or no) death penalty will have different encounters and situations arise compared to a game designed around harsh death penalty (or even perma-death). Playing your char as potentially perma-death in such an environment where only one side (you) has anything to lose would not give any rush at all, just ridiculous encounters.
Let them hang onto whatever few games lieft with serious death penalties. There are already too few left, and most of them subpar and empty.
This is why people have such antipathy for the "harsh penalty" crowd. The overt elitism in the post above is sadly common in this group of players.
News flash:
The majority of people play games to have fun. Period. Not to simulate reality, not to "become better players" (whatever that means), and certanly not to adhere to a particular "play style". If the MMO community really did want harsher death penalties, developers would be releasing games to meet this demand. That few (if any) "modern" MMOs are being released with harsh death penalties, speaks volumes...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Thank you for proving my point.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."