i played EvE online for almost 3 years... and everyone will agree that its one of the MMOs out there that has one of the harshest death penalties. but looking at how the game is made, i actually learned how to play smart, know if the reward in the end is worth the risk. is it worth to take my 1.6 billion isk ship to take down this station?
risk: i am flying 1.6 billion isk ship and might loose it, i have a 300million and a 600 million isk ships back in my hangar
reward, sovreignty of the system which will alow me to get 1.6 billion isk within a week (compared to the 4-5 weeks it would take me currently)
i think i can risk it... and i fully know well i might loose that ship, in fact i make up my mind that this 1.6 billion isk ship is not comming back home in 1 piece.
also i risk loosing the ship, not winning the system and an counter attack that might kill my 300 and my 600 million isk ship.
and all this is part of the game, makes me play smart and think before i act, makes cooperation within guild(corps) and alliances even more meaningfull, since that alliance you just helped escort ammunition/ships and ressources into deep 0.0 space might one day come to your rescue with 40+ capital ships and save your sorry ass... (or they might backstab you and kill you and your alliance and your mother (and grandmother if she still lives) then rub it in your face)
this type of game makes me think, makes me immerse into the game, gives meaning to my time ingame.
yeah anyone cant bash their head against a brick wall a couple thousand times and break it, but it takes a skilled martial artist to punch a hole through it the first time.
but the real question is, if you dont like that sort of gameplay, you dont want harsh death penalties,
GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY GAME AND GO BACK TO (i would say WoW but there are so many out there so ill let you pick) WHERE YOU DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH MY PLAY STYLE AND MY COMMUNITY'S PLAYSTYLE... WE CHOSE THIS GAME BECAUSE WE LIKE IT GO PICK ONE YOU LIKE AND GO AWAY
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
Is it really that confusing? If I am killing someone in PvP, I am getting enjoyment out of making THEIR character suffer, and by extension making MY character advance at the expense of other players. Death penalties are designed to bring the toughest, most intelligent players to the top of the food chain, and ensures that whoever wins the most fights against the toughest opponents will reap the greatest rewards. This isn't rocket science here, if games with death penalties were optional there would be no incentive for players to compete with each other. Creating a powerful character would merely be a matter of having played the game for a really long period of time rather than accomplishing a kill that required some skill or creativity on the part of the player.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
Is it really that confusing? If I am killing someone in PvP, I am getting enjoyment out of making THEIR character suffer, and by extension making MY character advance at the expense of other players. Death penalties are designed to bring the toughest, most intelligent players to the top of the food chain, and ensures that whoever wins the most fights against the toughest opponents will reap the greatest rewards. This isn't rocket science here, if games with death penalties were optional there would be no incentive for players to compete with each other. Creating a powerful character would merely be a matter of having played the game for a really long period of time rather than accomplishing a kill that required some skill or creativity on the part of the player.
Yet another player playing Rambo in pixels. Food chain, tough, intelligence, by flashy pixels. Good.
To explain years of sub, millions of persistent sub, using just ad and brainwashing. You happen to have developed an objective way of measuring brainwashing of millions of people you never get to know in person? Can you also explain the behaviour of billions of stars out there in the universe, which you also never get to see in person? Nice crytal ball reader. Very nice.
Seriously. All the advertising in the world won't keep people using your products for years on end. For an MMO, advertising won't keep people past the initial 30 free days. If the game is broken or isn't fun or has a shitty launch, ads and marketing won't save it.
The games that last the longest in this market, and the ones that are successful, are the ones that can offer a compelling gameplay experience for the broadest market of players, with enough depth to keep them coming back year after year after year. Advertising and marketing can't fake that. The players are the ones who decide if a game suits their style.
Take a game like EVE. It's not for everyone. It's a decidedly different type of MMO from games like World of Warcraft and Rift. Sure, CCP advertises and markets it, but the people playing EVE aren't in there for years on end because of repeated marketing. They're in there because the game fits what they're looking for and gives them a satisfying experience.
Advertising and marketing only go so far. The games and products have to pick up the rest of the slack.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
Is it really that confusing? If I am killing someone in PvP, I am getting enjoyment out of making THEIR character suffer, and by extension making MY character advance at the expense of other players. Death penalties are designed to bring the toughest, most intelligent players to the top of the food chain, and ensures that whoever wins the most fights against the toughest opponents will reap the greatest rewards. This isn't rocket science here, if games with death penalties were optional there would be no incentive for players to compete with each other. Creating a powerful character would merely be a matter of having played the game for a really long period of time rather than accomplishing a kill that required some skill or creativity on the part of the player.
Yet another player playing Rambo in pixels. Food chain, tough, intelligence, by flashy pixels. Good.
yet another person judging someone else's hobby,
how wold you feel if i would tell you how stupid you look trying to be the best at you can be at your favourite hobby...
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
Is it really that confusing? If I am killing someone in PvP, I am getting enjoyment out of making THEIR character suffer, and by extension making MY character advance at the expense of other players. Death penalties are designed to bring the toughest, most intelligent players to the top of the food chain, and ensures that whoever wins the most fights against the toughest opponents will reap the greatest rewards. This isn't rocket science here, if games with death penalties were optional there would be no incentive for players to compete with each other. Creating a powerful character would merely be a matter of having played the game for a really long period of time rather than accomplishing a kill that required some skill or creativity on the part of the player.
Yet another player playing Rambo in pixels. Food chain, tough, intelligence, by flashy pixels. Good.
yet another person judging someone else's hobby,
how wold you feel if i would tell you how stupid you look trying to be the best at you can be at your favourite hobby...
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Not really, there are plenty of people in low and null pvp'ing in EVE. Sure the majority "hides" in high sec. But the fun can be found. If anything it beats pvp servers in WoW where a lvl 85 can gank lowbies (without consequences) almost everywhere and corps camp them for shits and giggles.
The thing is that usually the game's mechanics are dependent on the death penalty. You can't just go and throw a death penalty in game designed around the concept of meaningless deaths. Off course if you add Full loot in WoW (eg) pvp servers would die instantly and those remaining there would just bank up their best gear and run around in greenies. But that's because the game wasn't developed to support a full loot gameplay.
Very true, if you put everything in perspective, things will look more natural. I am just pointing out an opposite possibility from Praetalus' argument which is a broadbrush statement void of other information from game design to community.
First off, I was giving my opinion, which is what the OP was asking for was it not? I was not going of of "information from game design" , I was going off personal experience, which is a great way to make an opinion.
So tell me what games you have played with these harsh death penalties that discouraged you from Fun, Exploration, anything? Jugding from your statement, you sound like you don't like these type of games. My opinion was based on playing this precise type of game with plenty of people that also enjoy this type of game. And guess what? Our sense of fun and exploration was improved 100 fold due to the harsh death penalties. You know why? Cause we like that type of game. The people you seem to be referring to, are those who don't like this type of game but are playing it for some reason.
The game I am referring to by the way was Shadowbane. Full bag loot deaths, loss of all money on your person and I never once just sat in our city and didn't do anything due to fear of not being safe. The not being safe part is what made me and my friends go out there and have fun.
Point is, there is no middle of the road or self inflicted only penalties for death> it's all or none with these types of game. You either like them or you don't.
Originally posted by Disatisfied9 Originally posted by lizardbones
Companies do not have magic mind control buttons, forcing people to like what they like.
You couldn't be any more wrong... I cannot believe you are this ignorant of the reality of the success and power of advertising. Commercials, internet ads, emailers, billboards...these all tell the majority of society what to like, and how. In fact, the majority of what a society likes is entirely based on what that society says is acceptable, enjoyable, and entertaining. If a society shunned those who played sports but praised those who played chess, and all major athletes and millionaire professional players were chess players...it is no different than forcing people to like chess and dislike sports. Not that all people are brainwashed by social norms or commercialization, but yes...most people are.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE. MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
Our society basically forces people to like what they like, through commercials or through social norms. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. Unless of course you've never bought a product because a talking hamburger on TV commanded you to. Consider yourself lucky, because you're in the minority.
Bacteria in your guts actually change the way you think by changing your body chemistry. Magnetic fields with a high enough strength can change what you think and how you do things. There are things out there that actually exert mind control over you, but advertising isn't one of the things.
Nobody is forcing people to not want HDP*. There is no conspiracy of game developers telling people that HDP are 'bad'. There is no conspiracy to force people into having HDP in their games either.
There are people who like HDP and people who are against HDP; they should probably stay out of each others' games. Then there are people who aren't so opinionated on the matter and look at games for what they actually are instead of what they want them to be. Those people have more games to play than the first two groups.
* Using HDP instead of 'harsh death penalties' is probably the best thing to come out of this thread.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Companies do not have magic mind control buttons, forcing people to like what they like.
You couldn't be any more wrong...
I cannot believe you are this ignorant of the reality of the success and power of advertising. Commercials, internet ads, emailers, billboards...these all tell the majority of society what to like, and how.
In fact, the majority of what a society likes is entirely based on what that society says is acceptable, enjoyable, and entertaining. If a society shunned those who played sports but praised those who played chess, and all major athletes and millionaire professional players were chess players...it is no different than forcing people to like chess and dislike sports.
Not that all people are brainwashed by social norms or commercialization, but yes...most people are.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE.
MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
Our society basically forces people to like what they like, through commercials or through social norms. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. Unless of course you've never bought a product because a talking hamburger on TV commanded you to. Consider yourself lucky, because you're in the minority.
Bacteria in your guts actually change the way you think by changing your body chemistry. Magnetic fields with a high enough strength can change what you think and how you do things. There are things out there that actually exert mind control over you, but advertising isn't one of the things.
Nobody is forcing people to not want HDP*. There is no conspiracy of game developers telling people that HDP are 'bad'. There is no conspiracy to force people into having HDP in their games either.
There are people who like HDP and people who are against HDP; they should probably stay out of each others' games. Then there are people who aren't so opinionated on the matter and look at games for what they actually are instead of what they want them to be. Those people have more games to play than the first two groups.
* Using HDP instead of 'harsh death penalties' is probably the best thing to come out of this thread.
I agree. I'm a pro HDP guy,, but I don't like any of the games out, so I'm playing WoW, which has pretty much no DP, but I'm not bitching about it, I'm just having fun playing the game until something else hits. It's really not that big of a deal.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Not really, there are plenty of people in low and null pvp'ing in EVE. Sure the majority "hides" in high sec. But the fun can be found. If anything it beats pvp servers in WoW where a lvl 85 can gank lowbies (without consequences) almost everywhere and corps camp them for shits and giggles.
The thing is that usually the game's mechanics are dependent on the death penalty. You can't just go and throw a death penalty in game designed around the concept of meaningless deaths. Off course if you add Full loot in WoW (eg) pvp servers would die instantly and those remaining there would just bank up their best gear and run around in greenies. But that's because the game wasn't developed to support a full loot gameplay.
Very true, if you put everything in perspective, things will look more natural. I am just pointing out an opposite possibility from Praetalus' argument which is a broadbrush statement void of other information from game design to community.
First off, I was giving my opinion, which is what the OP was asking for was it not? I was not going of of "information from game design" , I was going off personal experience, which is a great way to make an opinion.
So tell me what games you have played with these harsh death penalties that discouraged you from Fun, Exploration, anything? Jugding from your statement, you sound like you don't like these type of games. My opinion was based on playing this precise type of game with plenty of people that also enjoy this type of game. And guess what? Our sense of fun and exploration was improved 100 fold due to the harsh death penalties. You know why? Cause we like that type of game. The people you seem to be referring to, are those who don't like this type of game but are playing it for some reason.
The game I am referring to by the way was Shadowbane. Full bag loot deaths, loss of all money on your person and I never once just sat in our city and didn't do anything due to fear of not being safe. The not being safe part is what made me and my friends go out there and have fun.
Point is, there is no middle of the road or self inflicted only penalties for death> it's all or none with these types of game. You either like them or you don't.
Yes I see your view, which I see as too broadbrushed. I offered an exact reversed phrasing to show you that the other opposite sound just as credible. Meaning, your view is just one angle. No more no less right than the opposite one.
Whether there is a middle of the road is up to your imagination and tolerance. I see many games with penalties coming in different shapes and packages. I just need to exercise my imagination and see how far I can enjoy each and everyone of them.
I do inflict harsher death penalties on myself in many games I play. To me, it's like penalties in football. It encourages players to play smarter and with more discipline. I don't care if other players do not like harsh death penalties, though I do believe that harsh death penalties in online games can help foster better communities.
I got a honest question, just how do harsh death penaties foster better communties? Could you please elaborate.
There are several ways, but they are reliant on the other mechanics and circumstances of the game, of course. These are also my opinion. I have no hard facts to back them up other than my own experience.
1. It encourages players to play better. A lot of conflict and drama is due to players who don't give a shit and make silly mistakes that get other players killed. In general, if players are playing better, there will be less mistakes. By contrast, if there are no consequences, it really doesn't matter how many times or how bad you mess up. Ironically players tend to get more upset when someone screws up in games wtih light death penalties than in games with harsh consequences.
2. It encourages players to help each other, instead of pointing fingers. When you die and it is difficult to get back to where you were before you died (long corpse run or XP loss), players are generally more sympathetic toward one another. Someone helped me when I died, now I am going to help you, to return the favor. By contrast, players in games with light death penalties might see a player asking for help and think that helping them would be a waste of time since nothing is lost if they do not help them.
3. It encourages communication. When there are harsh death penalties, players will be asking for help more often. Critisism is often not as harsh and more readily available. It is also often more appreciated. By contrast, if there are light death penalties, players are expected to rely on themselves and ridiculed when unable to do so.
100% agree.
All three things listed can be done without a harsh death penalty. It doesn't do any of those things if a player leaves the game or doesn't play it in the first place.
Do you have any examples or do you just like to argue? Show me an Online RPG game with light death penalties that does not suffer from the three things I explained more than it would with harsher consequences. What would you suggest as a solution other than harsh death penalties?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
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Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Just a different MMO player culture than when they started. Players toughed through things and that in itself when accomplished was rewarding. Effort brought reward...now it is just the opposite. Players want reward without effort, and can't fathom harsh death penalties (Not perma-death. But de-level, etc.), xp loss. Or that adrenaline rush of those risks you knew existed for what you were attempting and the possible consequences. It made you stop and THINK, and plan your actions carefully instead of simply leroying in because..eh, what difference does it make if you die. You can just spawn again 10 feet away with full hp's/mana and try again...no biggie. Personally...I see less fun in the latter. It's boring, mindless, and requires no strategy. It has NOTHING to do with punishing poor players...nice try though. Most PvPers thrive on poor players to pad their stats or simply to grief all day to thrill themselves.
Anyways, THAT is why you don't see companies or dev's developing many games with death penalties, or any other real challenge anymore. They know the majority (Newer generation of players mainly) want mindless zerg fun (Make MMO's more like console games, which is what they aren't suppose to be...hence, a different genre.)...so that is all they focus on. Whining would ensue or low server populations if they tried it..so why bother.
But...that's my personal opinion I suppose, and no matter what I say, or anyone else says in this thread...no one will see it eye to eye, so why bother the argument. As I said...it's a different player mindset now from the old school days.
You don't have to have a 'harsh' death penalty to make something hard. The fact that a death mechanic exists and that people experience it shows that there is something they are not accomplishing. If the content were easy, players wouldn't experience the death mechanic in the first place.
WoW is probably the best example of a game where the death penalty is easy to deal with. However, the raids are not zergs. For one, you are limited in the number of players you can bring. For another, you are limited by your gear. You have to learn the dance, and then get your gear to a high enough level to make doing the raid encounters possible. This takes a certain amount of time. The developers chose to have players spending their time doing the encounters rather than fixing their characters after a death. The developers could have had players spend time addressing their death, but instead had players doing the content and increased the amount of time it takes to do the content by making it harder.
You are basically talking about combat and progression. Harsh death penalties hinder that, which is why most people don't like them. Harsh death penalties are not good for players whose main staple for playing revovles around combat and progression. My argument is that there is more to these games than just combat and progression. And light death penalties take away from those aspects exponentially.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Do you have any examples or do you just like to argue? Show me an Online RPG game with light death penalties that does not suffer from the three things I explained more than it would with harsher consequences. What would you suggest as a solution other than harsh death penalties?
DAoC in its hey days have practically no death penalties. Gameplay is great.
CoX have xp debt, no more penalties, people play and have fun.
Darkfall have very harsh penalties, no one is playing it.
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It is the game itself, not much the penalty alone. The entire game design, from crafting, gearing, penalty, purpose of pvp or pve, fun factor ... together as a bundle that decides how well the community receive the game and play along together.
Elitist aside. Those elitist always think that they deserve an iron cross or victoria cross for doing whatever they do in whatever game they are trumpeting.
Too hard death penalties do not cause any rush any more. They cause frustration.
Death should mean something, but it shouldnt completely void what you have worked for for hours, days or even weeks.
i prefer deaths that matches the situation and flow of the game. EvE is a good example, your ship blows, your body dies, you go back to your last clone and go to fetch/build another boat. Makes some sense.
Deaths that encourages trying it again, with a different approach, death which is not overcomable by brute zerg.
Comments
i played EvE online for almost 3 years... and everyone will agree that its one of the MMOs out there that has one of the harshest death penalties. but looking at how the game is made, i actually learned how to play smart, know if the reward in the end is worth the risk. is it worth to take my 1.6 billion isk ship to take down this station?
risk: i am flying 1.6 billion isk ship and might loose it, i have a 300million and a 600 million isk ships back in my hangar
reward, sovreignty of the system which will alow me to get 1.6 billion isk within a week (compared to the 4-5 weeks it would take me currently)
i think i can risk it... and i fully know well i might loose that ship, in fact i make up my mind that this 1.6 billion isk ship is not comming back home in 1 piece.
also i risk loosing the ship, not winning the system and an counter attack that might kill my 300 and my 600 million isk ship.
and all this is part of the game, makes me play smart and think before i act, makes cooperation within guild(corps) and alliances even more meaningfull, since that alliance you just helped escort ammunition/ships and ressources into deep 0.0 space might one day come to your rescue with 40+ capital ships and save your sorry ass... (or they might backstab you and kill you and your alliance and your mother (and grandmother if she still lives) then rub it in your face)
this type of game makes me think, makes me immerse into the game, gives meaning to my time ingame.
yeah anyone cant bash their head against a brick wall a couple thousand times and break it, but it takes a skilled martial artist to punch a hole through it the first time.
but the real question is, if you dont like that sort of gameplay, you dont want harsh death penalties,
GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY GAME AND GO BACK TO (i would say WoW but there are so many out there so ill let you pick) WHERE YOU DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH MY PLAY STYLE AND MY COMMUNITY'S PLAYSTYLE... WE CHOSE THIS GAME BECAUSE WE LIKE IT GO PICK ONE YOU LIKE AND GO AWAY
Is it really that confusing? If I am killing someone in PvP, I am getting enjoyment out of making THEIR character suffer, and by extension making MY character advance at the expense of other players. Death penalties are designed to bring the toughest, most intelligent players to the top of the food chain, and ensures that whoever wins the most fights against the toughest opponents will reap the greatest rewards. This isn't rocket science here, if games with death penalties were optional there would be no incentive for players to compete with each other. Creating a powerful character would merely be a matter of having played the game for a really long period of time rather than accomplishing a kill that required some skill or creativity on the part of the player.
Yet another player playing Rambo in pixels. Food chain, tough, intelligence, by flashy pixels. Good.
Seriously. All the advertising in the world won't keep people using your products for years on end. For an MMO, advertising won't keep people past the initial 30 free days. If the game is broken or isn't fun or has a shitty launch, ads and marketing won't save it.
The games that last the longest in this market, and the ones that are successful, are the ones that can offer a compelling gameplay experience for the broadest market of players, with enough depth to keep them coming back year after year after year. Advertising and marketing can't fake that. The players are the ones who decide if a game suits their style.
Take a game like EVE. It's not for everyone. It's a decidedly different type of MMO from games like World of Warcraft and Rift. Sure, CCP advertises and markets it, but the people playing EVE aren't in there for years on end because of repeated marketing. They're in there because the game fits what they're looking for and gives them a satisfying experience.
Advertising and marketing only go so far. The games and products have to pick up the rest of the slack.
yet another person judging someone else's hobby,
how wold you feel if i would tell you how stupid you look trying to be the best at you can be at your favourite hobby...
Thanks for telling.
First off, I was giving my opinion, which is what the OP was asking for was it not? I was not going of of "information from game design" , I was going off personal experience, which is a great way to make an opinion.
So tell me what games you have played with these harsh death penalties that discouraged you from Fun, Exploration, anything? Jugding from your statement, you sound like you don't like these type of games. My opinion was based on playing this precise type of game with plenty of people that also enjoy this type of game. And guess what? Our sense of fun and exploration was improved 100 fold due to the harsh death penalties. You know why? Cause we like that type of game. The people you seem to be referring to, are those who don't like this type of game but are playing it for some reason.
The game I am referring to by the way was Shadowbane. Full bag loot deaths, loss of all money on your person and I never once just sat in our city and didn't do anything due to fear of not being safe. The not being safe part is what made me and my friends go out there and have fun.
Point is, there is no middle of the road or self inflicted only penalties for death> it's all or none with these types of game. You either like them or you don't.
I cannot believe you are this ignorant of the reality of the success and power of advertising. Commercials, internet ads, emailers, billboards...these all tell the majority of society what to like, and how.
In fact, the majority of what a society likes is entirely based on what that society says is acceptable, enjoyable, and entertaining. If a society shunned those who played sports but praised those who played chess, and all major athletes and millionaire professional players were chess players...it is no different than forcing people to like chess and dislike sports.
Not that all people are brainwashed by social norms or commercialization, but yes...most people are.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE.
MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
Our society basically forces people to like what they like, through commercials or through social norms. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. Unless of course you've never bought a product because a talking hamburger on TV commanded you to. Consider yourself lucky, because you're in the minority.
Bacteria in your guts actually change the way you think by changing your body chemistry. Magnetic fields with a high enough strength can change what you think and how you do things. There are things out there that actually exert mind control over you, but advertising isn't one of the things.
Nobody is forcing people to not want HDP*. There is no conspiracy of game developers telling people that HDP are 'bad'. There is no conspiracy to force people into having HDP in their games either.
There are people who like HDP and people who are against HDP; they should probably stay out of each others' games. Then there are people who aren't so opinionated on the matter and look at games for what they actually are instead of what they want them to be. Those people have more games to play than the first two groups.
* Using HDP instead of 'harsh death penalties' is probably the best thing to come out of this thread.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree. I'm a pro HDP guy,, but I don't like any of the games out, so I'm playing WoW, which has pretty much no DP, but I'm not bitching about it, I'm just having fun playing the game until something else hits. It's really not that big of a deal.
Yes I see your view, which I see as too broadbrushed. I offered an exact reversed phrasing to show you that the other opposite sound just as credible. Meaning, your view is just one angle. No more no less right than the opposite one.
Whether there is a middle of the road is up to your imagination and tolerance. I see many games with penalties coming in different shapes and packages. I just need to exercise my imagination and see how far I can enjoy each and everyone of them.
Cheers.
Do you have any examples or do you just like to argue? Show me an Online RPG game with light death penalties that does not suffer from the three things I explained more than it would with harsher consequences. What would you suggest as a solution other than harsh death penalties?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You are basically talking about combat and progression. Harsh death penalties hinder that, which is why most people don't like them. Harsh death penalties are not good for players whose main staple for playing revovles around combat and progression. My argument is that there is more to these games than just combat and progression. And light death penalties take away from those aspects exponentially.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Too hard death penalties do not cause any rush any more. They cause frustration.
Death should mean something, but it shouldnt completely void what you have worked for for hours, days or even weeks.
DAoC in its hey days have practically no death penalties. Gameplay is great.
CoX have xp debt, no more penalties, people play and have fun.
Darkfall have very harsh penalties, no one is playing it.
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It is the game itself, not much the penalty alone. The entire game design, from crafting, gearing, penalty, purpose of pvp or pve, fun factor ... together as a bundle that decides how well the community receive the game and play along together.
Elitist aside. Those elitist always think that they deserve an iron cross or victoria cross for doing whatever they do in whatever game they are trumpeting.
i prefer deaths that matches the situation and flow of the game. EvE is a good example, your ship blows, your body dies, you go back to your last clone and go to fetch/build another boat. Makes some sense.
Deaths that encourages trying it again, with a different approach, death which is not overcomable by brute zerg.