I am blessed in the TOR vs GW2 discussion, that Sci-Fi holds absolute no interest for me, and fantasy does! Because of that I haven't payed close attention to TOR as much as i could!
With that said i think that is one issue with B2P vs P2P arguments- and that is that the games situations are not equal at all.
And in a competition its very different what each game has to accomplish to succeed! The argument that because one is P2P and the other B2P then you can play both, only holds as long as the P2P is staying equal are in front of what the B2P delivers! If the B2P graps you more then the subscribtion is at risk!
The B2P does "only need" to deliver a good enough impression, that you want to come back and buy and try new content when its availeble. If it does that, it does not suffer for competition from a P2P game.
The short version is that TOR properly has to be better than GW2 overall to keep people with interest in both, playing it. Where GW2 can be worse overall, as long as fresh new content is good enough to make people come back to play again!
Yeah, I'll pick SWtoR just for a change of atmosphere. Less dragons, more spaceships.
Tried and true?
You mean generic, outdated, uninspired.
Anyway, there are many of us who enjoy fantasy.
I never understood why players would force themselves to play a game genre if they really didn't enjoy it. Are they that addicted to MMO games that they need their fix so they will play whatever is out there?
Who knows..
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
The B2P does "only need" to deliver a good enough impression, that you want to come back and buy and try new content when its availeble. If it does that, it does not suffer for competition from a P2P game.
The short version is that TOR properly has to be better than GW2 overall to keep people with interest in both, playing it. Where GW2 can be worse overall, as long as fresh new content is good enough to make people come back to play again!
? This is flawed argumentation, because it only relates to expectation, meaning that no matter what model a company chooses, it'll have operational costs and development costs that both have to be covered by revenues.
P2P games with the same level of player activity generally have more revenues than B2P games, so that means that they usually have more revenues incoming to cover any operational and development costs.
The amount of revenues a company needs to be able to cover their development and overhead costs isn't determined by its payment model - that one only determines how the revenues will be gained - but by the 'leanness' and effectiveness of their server infrastructure and data transfer, and by the amount of content they intend to generate. That last one of course is also determined by the smartness of their design model and their development teams, plus the overhead costs not to forget.
Originally posted by empyros
Anyway, there are many of us who enjoy fantasy.
I never understood why players would force themselves to play a game genre if they really didn't enjoy it. Are they that addicted to MMO games that they need their fix so they will play whatever is out there?
I think that argument works both ways, or multiple ways however you view things.
Basically people play MMO games because of wanting to have fun, what provides entertainment differs from one person to the other. One person can enjoy himself in one game, while another finds gaming fun in another game and might have no fun in a game where someone else has been having a great time in, while a third person scorns all MMO gamers and MMO's because it just doesn't do it for him and he can't see the fun that others have with games, and that third person can have a hobby that completely gives him the entertainment that the first two persons get from gaming in (different) MMO's.
Who of the 3 persons is right?
I think all of them, if they've found what gives them entertainment value for their time.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think that argument works both ways, or multiple ways however you view things.
Basically people play MMO games because of wanting to have fun, what provides entertainment differs from one person to the other. One person can enjoy himself in one game, while another finds gaming fun in another game and might have no fun in a game where someone else has been having a great time in, while a third person scorns all MMO gamers and MMO's because it just doesn't do it for him and he can't see the fun that others have with games, and that third person can have a hobby that completely gives him the entertainment that the first two persons get from gaming in (different) MMO's.
Who of the 3 persons is right?
I think all of them, if they've found what gives them entertainment value for their time.
I really wasn't arguing anything.
Just wondering why someone would make a point against a game for its genre when no one forced them to play that game or genre.
(Should have stated that in my earlier post.)
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I have no idea were you get your numbers from. Both games are not even out so those numbers will change. I don't count anything out. The truth is we really don't know how well either game will do till they are released and been out for a while. Sales in my opinion don't make the game a better game or mean that it will do better.
The truth is that both KOTOR and GW2 could come out and one or both could blow chunks. The only thing that Guild Wars 2 has going for it was that it was free to play. However free doesn't lead up to being better. If that were true then Guild Wars and D&D online would be way more popular then they are. Both have there fan base but there not staple MMO that are going to draw in every Tom Dick and Harry. Star Wars will appeal to the masses, GW2 will not.
Here better way of explain it, one only has to look at WoW vs GW. There are far more people playing Worold of Warcraft then there playing Guild Wars. Thats because WoW caters and appeals to a much larger audiance. Guild Wars on the other hand Caters and Appeals to a much smaller Audiance.
However again none this tells use which is a better MMO. I haven't followed GW2, I've seen a few things here and there and what I saw look awesome. I have mostly followed KOTOR and what there doing is epic and probably single handily the most creative content I have seen in a MMO thus far. I think if KOTOR does as well as I'm expecting to see more and more MMO developed the same way in the futur.
However again like said how good either game is can only be determained by each and every player. However I will also say it is way to early to say which game will be the more popular game, both have advantages the other doesn't. Also now days predicting how well something will do (especially MMO) is damn near impossible.
I think that argument works both ways, or multiple ways however you view things.
Basically people play MMO games because of wanting to have fun, what provides entertainment differs from one person to the other. One person can enjoy himself in one game, while another finds gaming fun in another game and might have no fun in a game where someone else has been having a great time in, while a third person scorns all MMO gamers and MMO's because it just doesn't do it for him and he can't see the fun that others have with games, and that third person can have a hobby that completely gives him the entertainment that the first two persons get from gaming in (different) MMO's.
Who of the 3 persons is right?
I think all of them, if they've found what gives them entertainment value for their time.
I really wasn't arguing anything.
Just wondering why someone would make a point against a game for its genre when no one forced them to play that game or genre.
(Should have stated that in my earlier post.)
I'm not sure if you got my point, because from this post it seems you didn't.
To make sure that I got your post, let's take a second look at what you said in the post I replied on:
Originally posted by empyros
Originally posted by C1d0s
Fantasy MMO # 2121332324
OR
Sci-Fi following tride and true formula?
Yeah, I'll pick SWtoR just for a change of atmosphere. Less dragons, more spaceships.
Tried and true?
You mean generic, outdated, uninspired.
Anyway, there are many of us who enjoy fantasy.
I never understood why players would force themselves to play a game genre if they really didn't enjoy it. Are they that addicted to MMO games that they need their fix so they will play whatever is out there?
Who knows..
It seems you make the mistake of equaling a theme with a genre: fantasy theme does not equal MMO genre, as enough MMO's have played.
Besides, why does C1d0s make you ask the question why people are playing a game genre he doesn't really enjoy? He never said that, in fact, he mentions that he's looking forward to a non-fantasy MMO, SWTOR. So he clearly doesn't fall into that category of people not liking an MMO genre.
Thinking further on that, the question seems more appropriate to yourself: you describe SWTOR as being 'generic and outdated', but if that's how you see it than the vast majority of MMORPG's out there is 'generic and outdated' because if you find SWTOR's themepark design outdated and generic, then the vast majority of MMO's fits that bill too. Which leads to the conclusion that you're actually wanting to play a game genre of which over 90% of it you don't really enjoy as it's 'outdated and generic'.
So, since GW2 isn't out yet and no sortlike game has been out the past few years, why do you force yourself to continue play a game genre you apparently don't enjoy that much, at least not in its current state which it has been in for years?
Answering that question would go a long way to answering your own question, I guess.
And to return to your second post, why are you wondering about why someone would make a point against a game for its genre, when you're doing the exact same thing as that person, only he's doing it against GW2 while you're doing it against SWTOR and all sortlike themepark MMO's?
Which leads me to my former point and back to the OP: as he says, I agree with, this whole 'SWTOR vs GW2' is stupid beyond words, if someone doesn't like a game then don't play it and just leave it be instead of bashing it and making these silly comparison wars that you see daily. They appeal to different gaming needs, just like different food and restaurants can all provide a different yet still satisfying taste sensation for those who can appreciate the cuisine a restaurant is offering.
Me, I intend to play both MMO's, and I think there are quite a number of people who are of the same mind. If not, and if people are only looking forward to 1 of those 2 games, or maybe not even those 2 but another upcoming one, then good for them too. To each their own path of finding gaming fun.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have no idea were you get your numbers from. Both games are not even out so those numbers will change. I don't count anything out. The truth is we really don't know how well either game will do till they are released and been out for a while. Sales in my opinion don't make the game a better game or mean that it will do better.
The truth is that both KOTOR and GW2 could come out and one or both could blow chunks. The only thing that Guild Wars 2 has going for it was that it was free to play. However free doesn't lead up to being better. If that were true then Guild Wars and D&D online would be way more popular then they are. Both have there fan base but there not staple MMO that are going to draw in every Tom Dick and Harry. Star Wars will appeal to the masses, GW2 will not.
Here better way of explain it, one only has to look at WoW vs GW. There are far more people playing Worold of Warcraft then there playing Guild Wars. Thats because WoW caters and appeals to a much larger audiance. Guild Wars on the other hand Caters and Appeals to a much smaller Audiance.
However again none this tells use which is a better MMO. I haven't followed GW2, I've seen a few things here and there and what I saw look awesome. I have mostly followed KOTOR and what there doing is epic and probably single handily the most creative content I have seen in a MMO thus far. I think if KOTOR does as well as I'm expecting to see more and more MMO developed the same way in the futur.
However again like said how good either game is can only be determained by each and every player. However I will also say it is way to early to say which game will be the more popular game, both have advantages the other doesn't. Also now days predicting how well something will do (especially MMO) is damn near impossible.
Loke666 got his numbers because you keep saying KOTOR when you mean to say SWTOR. KOTOR was a single player game that came out in 2003. He was saying, accurately, that KOTOR sold a million copies, but GW1 sold more. He's saying that based on those sales numbers, we can't say that SWTOR will automatically sell more copies than GW2 by being a Star Wars game.
The comparison of WoW to GW1 you make is incredibly apples to oranges. WoW is a AAA MMO, GW1 is a CORPG made by a small team. It might be that WoW appeals to more people than GW1, but it also might not have anything to do with the gameplay. Things like advertising, production quality, being on the market first, and word of mouth also play a huge role in a game's success.
In any case, GW2 is a completely different game than GW1. It's a AAA MMO in every sense. Compare GW2 to WoW and WoW starts looking pretty old. We'll see when it finally does come out whether people really do prefer one style of gameplay over another.
GW1 and GW2 are not free to play, they are buy to play. Sorry, huge pet peeve of mine.
And finally, I gotta point out that first you say that the only thing Guild Wars 2 has going for it is that it's free to play. Then you go on to say that you haven't followed GW2 but what you've seen here and there looks awesome. Not that either of them are free to play, but did you mean to type GW1 the first time?
In any case, I'd suggest you start following GW2 more closely. In my opinion, there's a lot of things to like about it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Yeah, I'll pick SWtoR just for a change of atmosphere. Less dragons, more spaceships.
I think the better phrasing would be:
Same theme, different game
OR
Different theme, same game.
You're reasoning however is perfectly sound. Change of atmosphere keeps the game fresh.
Pretty much.
TBH, my ideal MMO would be GW2's gameplay with TOR's setting. That said, gameplay is far more important to me than setting, so GW2 is my prefered upcoming MMO. Still, it's understandable as to why each game has a lot of fans, yet they cater to very different audiences. So why argue between them?
No way in hell i'm going to read through everything that has been posted in this topic thus far, but I do want to put in my two cents. Swtor is a change only in that it's set in a science fiction world in a market over saturated with fantasy games. Aside from that, it looks like it's using the tried and true formula that the big boys in the mmo market are using. Was this a smart decision on their part? Probably. There's a reason WoW is as huge as it is. People enjoy the gameplay. They may be getting tired of being in a fantasy world, but at the end of the day, the gameplay keeps them coming back. This is the market that Swtor is aiming for. The gamer that is perfectly fine with the style of gameplay that current mmos provide, but want something more out of it. Perhaps a deeper story? Different setting? Shinier graphics? Swtor provides all of those things while providing a new playground to run around in.
The crappy thing is that from the videos I have seen, and what I have read about the game, it's too much of the same. As a player of mmos for over a decade it really bothers me that developers are taking the safe route with their new games. Don't get me wrong, people will eat this thing up. They'll be totally all over it but there's a growing minority that is just sick of the same game with a different skin. What do we do? We support the devs that are at least trying to change the formula up. Sure, Guild Wars 2 may not revolutionize the whole genre, but it's doing things that no other mmo to date has done. Even as a huge fan of the sci-fi genre and even though I have a huge desire for a truly great sci-fi mmo to come out, I have to accept that the setting is unimportant as long as the gameplay is new and fresh. I'll give both a try. I doubt i'll really enjoy Swtor for very long based on what i've seen but you never know. I'm super excited about Guild Wars 2 though and I hope that the risks they are taking pay off.
No offens but how can u judge 2 games without ever playing it?
I know GW2 has a B2P and TOR doesnt but the only way u realy can say witch one is better if they both out
and u can compare them with eachother
Some people, including me, spend hours apon hours finding out information about a game before it is released. There is tons of demo footage to watch, intverviews, articles, wiki pages, guild wars 2 has a great blog as well. I have a very good idea of how guild wars 2 will play with all the info that is available
By that logic, no one should ever be surprised when an MMO has a failed launch. Granted, different games reveal different amounts of information pre-launch, but I have a feeling that there wouldn't have been so much hype if folks had known how Vanguard, Age of Conan, Hellgate: London, and Warhammer Online would hit the ground running.
Is a launch everything? No. Games change, and typically get better over time. But regardless, I believe pre-launch info if a poor indicator of how an MMO will be received post-launch.
I'm not even going to read that wall of text juding from the topic. However here's my point of view. SWToR is for people who don't want something all that new in terms of mechanics, in other words a traditional MMORPG. GW2 on the other hand is for people who want something new, something that breaks those traditional MMORPG trends and it seems like a game where you'll be able to pick your own pace.
By that logic, no one should ever be surprised when an MMO has a failed launch. Granted, different games reveal different amounts of information pre-launch, but I have a feeling that there wouldn't have been so much hype if folks had known how Vanguard, Age of Conan, Hellgate: London, and Warhammer Online would hit the ground running.
Is a launch everything? No. Games change, and typically get better over time. But regardless, I believe pre-launch info if a poor indicator of how an MMO will be received post-launch.
For an MMO, a launch is probably 'everything'.
Age of Conan/WarHammer is a classic example of a bad launch haunting the life of an MMO.
The only solution that has proven to work is a 'reboot/re-launch', mainly to the F2P model.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
But regardless, I believe pre-launch info if a poor indicator of how an MMO will be received post-launch.
Not if you know what to look for. I researched FFXIV a lot pre-launch, with big hopes for it. Once I got beyond the lofty promises and got to see actual gameplay and ultimately got hands-on time during beta, I had a pretty good idea about where it would go. At that point, launch, and even post-launch, went pretty much as expected.
Of course noone can make predictions about how the game might be in 5 years. But how is that relevant? What interests me as a player is if it's a game I want to play now, not in 5 years.
Both GW2 and TOR have given out enough information for me to collect to decide whether I want to play them when they come out. I grant you though that noone should make these assumption for anyone but themselves.
In most of the videos I see about TOR, they say "story-driven MMO". This statement alone leads me to believe I won't enjoy the game.
By story-driven, I'm assuming they're takling about spending a good chunk of time talking to NPCs in that solo-player-esque chat system they've got.
Call me crazy, but I don't play MMOs to talk to NPCs for most of my time. Frankly I find that pretty boring.
But wait, says Bioware, you're party members can be in those dialogues, too! You're all randomly picked to see who talks next!
Oh, goody. That sounds like REAL fun! You mean, after I'm done talking, my friend might be able to talk, too? He can say a snarky one-liner that altogether hasn't much bearing on the plot as a whole? I think it's more or less going to boil down to...
Light side responses: I will do X for you, because I am a good person.
Dark side responses: Ragh ragh, brash and rude comment, but I'll still get that quest done for you anyway.
Just like it is in single player/Bioware games, though certainly not as deep because you have to take into consideration the addition of other party members.
I'm sure when getting a quest in an MMO, most people just hit the accept button and go on their merry way. Basing a good amount of the game on listening to dialoge (yes, even if it's VO), will probably be interesting the first time, not so much the second time. Don't get me started on the third time. Or the fourth. The fifth? People are going to want replay value, and having slightly branching conversation paths isn't going to electrify the industry.
I think the fact remains that most people just want to hit the damn accept button and start actually DOING something, instead of talking.
I'm sure there will be players who will love it, but I don't think I'm mad to believe that most of them play an MMO for MMO gameplay, not to watch a movie or play a Bioware single player game.
tl;dr - Basing a rather large portion of the game around dialoge with NPCs looks boring.
Aside from that, it just looks like a basic MMO; more of the same I've been playing for the past six or seven years, just in a Star Wars universe. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Star Wars (I haven't watched the movies more than a dozen times in my lifetime), and I certainly don't HATE the series, but it seems more like a gimmick at this point. I think Bioware really could've done more and brought more to the table, since they were given such a golden opportunity... but instead they gave us Huttball.
I will not be harsh, since I have not played it, but I share the same concerns, of the dialogue actually taking me away from my fun/immersion, not making it better. I have always disliked these attempts at dialogue/choices/cut scenes. I did not play KOTOR, so I cannot say I hate biowares latest stuff, I hope that I don't and that I can deal with, and maybe even like it....But of the two titles, I have more doubts about swtor. I also worry that swtor will be the same thing that most modern mmos are, just with a twist, that I may not care for. I really hope to play a trial before I decide to play. I have some friends playing, so I may take the dip anyway.
GW2, I worry about the item mall (I worry about this in any game with one), but I am more hopeful that maybe I can get some of that DAoC feeling back, if they make the WvWvW good. I worry that each home worlds area is an exact copy of every other worlds, it would make 3 zones kind of bland, and lose the appeal of being in a 'foreign' land. I realize its explainable, and may fit the story better to make it the same, but that seems boring...theirs no feel of in another place, learning it, wondering whats around etc.... I hope they can come up with maybe 6-12 lands that maybe rotate (explained due to different reality connections or some such), or one of each is assigned to every server...That way you will probably get atleast 1 different land from your home type land each cycle...I know it sounds petty, but I loved the different look and feel of DAoC's three realms, and having to learn them, and it being the constant reminder, you are in a different place, than your own warfront. I also hope the siege type stuff is top notch. If they can make the WvWvW good enough, I would look past many bland/boring/broken other mechanics probably...
I am looking forward to GW2 the most, but if I am honest with myself, I will probably give both a shot. I do think that biowares thing of 'limited' pre-orders is some percieved shortage scam to get people to pre-order. It is working, so congrats to them, but I don't buy any of the excuses as to why it's real or how it's for the good of the game. Any arguement for it, can be shot down with an even lesser arguement against it, with solutions. I don't hold it against them though, people were mad at Trion for their beta weekend stuff, contests, etc....It seems to be the new model...In the end, make a good game, thats whats most important.
Have a look at this video, if you like. It's some TOR gameplay, uploaded in late July. Not immediately up to date, per say, but still relevant since not much has changed between then and now.
It starts off with a bit of the dialoge system, wich is interesting enough in its own right, but I'm curious: what happens if one of your party members DCs? Does the client immediately register he is offline? Or if it is his/her turn to participate in the conversation, will you all just sit there waiting?
Second, the conversation doesn't seem to have that much impact on what happens before or after the dialogue. I'm sure no matter what the players chose, it will all lead up to the same events anyway. So really, to me, it just seems like a waste of time, unless you like to watch more than you like to *play*.
Finally, the combat begins. I don't know about the rest of you, but aside from the basic MMO UI, I can hardly tell what's going on on screen to the enemy. All I see are stray blaster bolts, puffs of smoke, the occasional lightsaber glow, and a few explosions. Between those I see the rather bland looking character models, who move around like they're all droids.
One aspect of the game that really bothers me is the lack of "realism", in terms of the Star Wars universe, particularly the powers of the Jedi. Now, obviously you can't make Jedis realistic in regards to their powers, because they would steamroll anything that isn't a Jedi, but still, I find it weird that a Jedi can whack a droid or non-Jedi with a lightsaber and it might as well be a nerf sword. Where's the decapitation? The severing and instant cauterization of limbs? The droids being sliced in half with nothing but glowing, molten metal left behind? If I were to play a Jedi, I wouldn't FEEL like a Jedi. Especially if a Smuggler (or what have you) manages to shoot/kite me and kill me. It doesn't make much sense in the Star Wars universe.
I keep hearing about how amazing the environments are, but all I see (as far as interiors go) are linear hallways without much in them... A few stray crates here and there, a big ol' automatic door and the like, but other than that not much else. I haven't seen a whole lot in terms of exterior environments, but I am certain, however, that they are better, at least aesthetically.
One of the combat mechanics the narrator describes is... avoiding a big blue marker on the ground that indicates where an enemies' attack will land. Fun.
Another video I recall, I assume a few of you know of Athene, who had asked a TOR dev/representative about TOR's involvement with any PvP leagues, to which the dev said something along the lines of (and I paraphrase), "We're not really interested in that at the moment. We may look into it in the future." This leads me to believe that PvP is an after thought, and it won't be particularly balanced.
These are just more of my opinions derived from what I've seen, this time around I've tried not to make direct comparisons to GW2, and just let TOR be by itself, but even then, the game looks... Okay. Nothing special, nothing that really jumps out at me and makes me think, "I want to play that!". It just sort of... is, at the moment.
But, like I've said before, I obviously haven't played it. So here's to hoping that it exceeds my expectations.
All I can say is that the GW2 hypsters on this site owe me $30 LOL. Reason being all this hype on GW2 and even the previous hype on GW1 had me beileve that I must have missed the boat on GW1 so I went out and bought the trilogy. After a few weeks of playing a game with maybe the poorest implemented interface of any modern MMO/FPS game, I finally unistalled it as it really just isn't worth playing.
Made me completely dismiss ArenaNet as a legitimate developer, so my money is that GW2 will be an overhyped underdeliverd mess. I seriously cannot believe how amateurish that GW1 interface was. Not sure why anybody gives ArenaNet any credibility whatsoever.
I hope I'm wrong though, but no way am I buying this on day 1...
Sorry you bought GW, really, didn't you do the trial? You'd have seen it was an old game, really quite old. Maybe good in the day, but I wouldn't pay for it now. I believe there were even threads on whether people should be getting the original until GW2 comes out. The more or less consensus, if there ever is such a thing on these forums, was to not get GW when expecting something like GW2. GW is not even an MMO but a CORPG.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Comments
I am blessed in the TOR vs GW2 discussion, that Sci-Fi holds absolute no interest for me, and fantasy does! Because of that I haven't payed close attention to TOR as much as i could!
With that said i think that is one issue with B2P vs P2P arguments- and that is that the games situations are not equal at all.
And in a competition its very different what each game has to accomplish to succeed! The argument that because one is P2P and the other B2P then you can play both, only holds as long as the P2P is staying equal are in front of what the B2P delivers! If the B2P graps you more then the subscribtion is at risk!
The B2P does "only need" to deliver a good enough impression, that you want to come back and buy and try new content when its availeble. If it does that, it does not suffer for competition from a P2P game.
The short version is that TOR properly has to be better than GW2 overall to keep people with interest in both, playing it. Where GW2 can be worse overall, as long as fresh new content is good enough to make people come back to play again!
Disagree as of right now TOR has absolutly no Fluff shop.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Fantasy MMO # 2121332324
OR
Sci-Fi following tride and true formula?
Yeah, I'll pick SWtoR just for a change of atmosphere. Less dragons, more spaceships.
Metaphorically speaking, this is just another Kong vs. Godzilla thread.
Tried and true?
You mean generic, outdated, uninspired.
Anyway, there are many of us who enjoy fantasy.
I never understood why players would force themselves to play a game genre if they really didn't enjoy it. Are they that addicted to MMO games that they need their fix so they will play whatever is out there?
Who knows..
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
? This is flawed argumentation, because it only relates to expectation, meaning that no matter what model a company chooses, it'll have operational costs and development costs that both have to be covered by revenues.
P2P games with the same level of player activity generally have more revenues than B2P games, so that means that they usually have more revenues incoming to cover any operational and development costs.
The amount of revenues a company needs to be able to cover their development and overhead costs isn't determined by its payment model - that one only determines how the revenues will be gained - but by the 'leanness' and effectiveness of their server infrastructure and data transfer, and by the amount of content they intend to generate. That last one of course is also determined by the smartness of their design model and their development teams, plus the overhead costs not to forget.
I think that argument works both ways, or multiple ways however you view things.
Basically people play MMO games because of wanting to have fun, what provides entertainment differs from one person to the other. One person can enjoy himself in one game, while another finds gaming fun in another game and might have no fun in a game where someone else has been having a great time in, while a third person scorns all MMO gamers and MMO's because it just doesn't do it for him and he can't see the fun that others have with games, and that third person can have a hobby that completely gives him the entertainment that the first two persons get from gaming in (different) MMO's.
Who of the 3 persons is right?
I think all of them, if they've found what gives them entertainment value for their time.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I really wasn't arguing anything.
Just wondering why someone would make a point against a game for its genre when no one forced them to play that game or genre.
(Should have stated that in my earlier post.)
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
I have no idea were you get your numbers from. Both games are not even out so those numbers will change. I don't count anything out. The truth is we really don't know how well either game will do till they are released and been out for a while. Sales in my opinion don't make the game a better game or mean that it will do better.
The truth is that both KOTOR and GW2 could come out and one or both could blow chunks. The only thing that Guild Wars 2 has going for it was that it was free to play. However free doesn't lead up to being better. If that were true then Guild Wars and D&D online would be way more popular then they are. Both have there fan base but there not staple MMO that are going to draw in every Tom Dick and Harry. Star Wars will appeal to the masses, GW2 will not.
Here better way of explain it, one only has to look at WoW vs GW. There are far more people playing Worold of Warcraft then there playing Guild Wars. Thats because WoW caters and appeals to a much larger audiance. Guild Wars on the other hand Caters and Appeals to a much smaller Audiance.
However again none this tells use which is a better MMO. I haven't followed GW2, I've seen a few things here and there and what I saw look awesome. I have mostly followed KOTOR and what there doing is epic and probably single handily the most creative content I have seen in a MMO thus far. I think if KOTOR does as well as I'm expecting to see more and more MMO developed the same way in the futur.
However again like said how good either game is can only be determained by each and every player. However I will also say it is way to early to say which game will be the more popular game, both have advantages the other doesn't. Also now days predicting how well something will do (especially MMO) is damn near impossible.
I'm not sure if you got my point, because from this post it seems you didn't.
To make sure that I got your post, let's take a second look at what you said in the post I replied on:
It seems you make the mistake of equaling a theme with a genre: fantasy theme does not equal MMO genre, as enough MMO's have played.
Besides, why does C1d0s make you ask the question why people are playing a game genre he doesn't really enjoy? He never said that, in fact, he mentions that he's looking forward to a non-fantasy MMO, SWTOR. So he clearly doesn't fall into that category of people not liking an MMO genre.
Thinking further on that, the question seems more appropriate to yourself: you describe SWTOR as being 'generic and outdated', but if that's how you see it than the vast majority of MMORPG's out there is 'generic and outdated' because if you find SWTOR's themepark design outdated and generic, then the vast majority of MMO's fits that bill too. Which leads to the conclusion that you're actually wanting to play a game genre of which over 90% of it you don't really enjoy as it's 'outdated and generic'.
So, since GW2 isn't out yet and no sortlike game has been out the past few years, why do you force yourself to continue play a game genre you apparently don't enjoy that much, at least not in its current state which it has been in for years?
Answering that question would go a long way to answering your own question, I guess.
And to return to your second post, why are you wondering about why someone would make a point against a game for its genre, when you're doing the exact same thing as that person, only he's doing it against GW2 while you're doing it against SWTOR and all sortlike themepark MMO's?
Which leads me to my former point and back to the OP: as he says, I agree with, this whole 'SWTOR vs GW2' is stupid beyond words, if someone doesn't like a game then don't play it and just leave it be instead of bashing it and making these silly comparison wars that you see daily. They appeal to different gaming needs, just like different food and restaurants can all provide a different yet still satisfying taste sensation for those who can appreciate the cuisine a restaurant is offering.
Me, I intend to play both MMO's, and I think there are quite a number of people who are of the same mind. If not, and if people are only looking forward to 1 of those 2 games, or maybe not even those 2 but another upcoming one, then good for them too. To each their own path of finding gaming fun.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Loke666 got his numbers because you keep saying KOTOR when you mean to say SWTOR. KOTOR was a single player game that came out in 2003. He was saying, accurately, that KOTOR sold a million copies, but GW1 sold more. He's saying that based on those sales numbers, we can't say that SWTOR will automatically sell more copies than GW2 by being a Star Wars game.
The comparison of WoW to GW1 you make is incredibly apples to oranges. WoW is a AAA MMO, GW1 is a CORPG made by a small team. It might be that WoW appeals to more people than GW1, but it also might not have anything to do with the gameplay. Things like advertising, production quality, being on the market first, and word of mouth also play a huge role in a game's success.
In any case, GW2 is a completely different game than GW1. It's a AAA MMO in every sense. Compare GW2 to WoW and WoW starts looking pretty old. We'll see when it finally does come out whether people really do prefer one style of gameplay over another.
GW1 and GW2 are not free to play, they are buy to play. Sorry, huge pet peeve of mine.
And finally, I gotta point out that first you say that the only thing Guild Wars 2 has going for it is that it's free to play. Then you go on to say that you haven't followed GW2 but what you've seen here and there looks awesome. Not that either of them are free to play, but did you mean to type GW1 the first time?
In any case, I'd suggest you start following GW2 more closely. In my opinion, there's a lot of things to like about it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I think the better phrasing would be:
Same theme, different game
OR
Different theme, same game.
You're reasoning however is perfectly sound. Change of atmosphere keeps the game fresh.
Pretty much.
TBH, my ideal MMO would be GW2's gameplay with TOR's setting. That said, gameplay is far more important to me than setting, so GW2 is my prefered upcoming MMO. Still, it's understandable as to why each game has a lot of fans, yet they cater to very different audiences. So why argue between them?
No offens but how can u judge 2 games without ever playing it?
I know GW2 has a B2P and TOR doesnt but the only way u realy can say witch one is better if they both out
and u can compare them with eachother
No way in hell i'm going to read through everything that has been posted in this topic thus far, but I do want to put in my two cents. Swtor is a change only in that it's set in a science fiction world in a market over saturated with fantasy games. Aside from that, it looks like it's using the tried and true formula that the big boys in the mmo market are using. Was this a smart decision on their part? Probably. There's a reason WoW is as huge as it is. People enjoy the gameplay. They may be getting tired of being in a fantasy world, but at the end of the day, the gameplay keeps them coming back. This is the market that Swtor is aiming for. The gamer that is perfectly fine with the style of gameplay that current mmos provide, but want something more out of it. Perhaps a deeper story? Different setting? Shinier graphics? Swtor provides all of those things while providing a new playground to run around in.
The crappy thing is that from the videos I have seen, and what I have read about the game, it's too much of the same. As a player of mmos for over a decade it really bothers me that developers are taking the safe route with their new games. Don't get me wrong, people will eat this thing up. They'll be totally all over it but there's a growing minority that is just sick of the same game with a different skin. What do we do? We support the devs that are at least trying to change the formula up. Sure, Guild Wars 2 may not revolutionize the whole genre, but it's doing things that no other mmo to date has done. Even as a huge fan of the sci-fi genre and even though I have a huge desire for a truly great sci-fi mmo to come out, I have to accept that the setting is unimportant as long as the gameplay is new and fresh. I'll give both a try. I doubt i'll really enjoy Swtor for very long based on what i've seen but you never know. I'm super excited about Guild Wars 2 though and I hope that the risks they are taking pay off.
Some people, including me, spend hours apon hours finding out information about a game before it is released. There is tons of demo footage to watch, intverviews, articles, wiki pages, guild wars 2 has a great blog as well. I have a very good idea of how guild wars 2 will play with all the info that is available
By that logic, no one should ever be surprised when an MMO has a failed launch. Granted, different games reveal different amounts of information pre-launch, but I have a feeling that there wouldn't have been so much hype if folks had known how Vanguard, Age of Conan, Hellgate: London, and Warhammer Online would hit the ground running.
Is a launch everything? No. Games change, and typically get better over time. But regardless, I believe pre-launch info if a poor indicator of how an MMO will be received post-launch.
I'm not even going to read that wall of text juding from the topic. However here's my point of view. SWToR is for people who don't want something all that new in terms of mechanics, in other words a traditional MMORPG. GW2 on the other hand is for people who want something new, something that breaks those traditional MMORPG trends and it seems like a game where you'll be able to pick your own pace.
At any rate pick up both the games and stfu.
For an MMO, a launch is probably 'everything'.
Age of Conan/WarHammer is a classic example of a bad launch haunting the life of an MMO.
The only solution that has proven to work is a 'reboot/re-launch', mainly to the F2P model.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Thumbs up for the lame false dichotomy. So stupid
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I like both Games.
Not if you know what to look for. I researched FFXIV a lot pre-launch, with big hopes for it. Once I got beyond the lofty promises and got to see actual gameplay and ultimately got hands-on time during beta, I had a pretty good idea about where it would go. At that point, launch, and even post-launch, went pretty much as expected.
Of course noone can make predictions about how the game might be in 5 years. But how is that relevant? What interests me as a player is if it's a game I want to play now, not in 5 years.
Both GW2 and TOR have given out enough information for me to collect to decide whether I want to play them when they come out. I grant you though that noone should make these assumption for anyone but themselves.
In most of the videos I see about TOR, they say "story-driven MMO". This statement alone leads me to believe I won't enjoy the game.
By story-driven, I'm assuming they're takling about spending a good chunk of time talking to NPCs in that solo-player-esque chat system they've got.
Call me crazy, but I don't play MMOs to talk to NPCs for most of my time. Frankly I find that pretty boring.
But wait, says Bioware, you're party members can be in those dialogues, too! You're all randomly picked to see who talks next!
Oh, goody. That sounds like REAL fun! You mean, after I'm done talking, my friend might be able to talk, too? He can say a snarky one-liner that altogether hasn't much bearing on the plot as a whole? I think it's more or less going to boil down to...
Light side responses: I will do X for you, because I am a good person.
Dark side responses: Ragh ragh, brash and rude comment, but I'll still get that quest done for you anyway.
Just like it is in single player/Bioware games, though certainly not as deep because you have to take into consideration the addition of other party members.
I'm sure when getting a quest in an MMO, most people just hit the accept button and go on their merry way. Basing a good amount of the game on listening to dialoge (yes, even if it's VO), will probably be interesting the first time, not so much the second time. Don't get me started on the third time. Or the fourth. The fifth? People are going to want replay value, and having slightly branching conversation paths isn't going to electrify the industry.
I think the fact remains that most people just want to hit the damn accept button and start actually DOING something, instead of talking.
I'm sure there will be players who will love it, but I don't think I'm mad to believe that most of them play an MMO for MMO gameplay, not to watch a movie or play a Bioware single player game.
tl;dr - Basing a rather large portion of the game around dialoge with NPCs looks boring.
Aside from that, it just looks like a basic MMO; more of the same I've been playing for the past six or seven years, just in a Star Wars universe. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Star Wars (I haven't watched the movies more than a dozen times in my lifetime), and I certainly don't HATE the series, but it seems more like a gimmick at this point. I think Bioware really could've done more and brought more to the table, since they were given such a golden opportunity... but instead they gave us Huttball.
I will not be harsh, since I have not played it, but I share the same concerns, of the dialogue actually taking me away from my fun/immersion, not making it better. I have always disliked these attempts at dialogue/choices/cut scenes. I did not play KOTOR, so I cannot say I hate biowares latest stuff, I hope that I don't and that I can deal with, and maybe even like it....But of the two titles, I have more doubts about swtor. I also worry that swtor will be the same thing that most modern mmos are, just with a twist, that I may not care for. I really hope to play a trial before I decide to play. I have some friends playing, so I may take the dip anyway.
GW2, I worry about the item mall (I worry about this in any game with one), but I am more hopeful that maybe I can get some of that DAoC feeling back, if they make the WvWvW good. I worry that each home worlds area is an exact copy of every other worlds, it would make 3 zones kind of bland, and lose the appeal of being in a 'foreign' land. I realize its explainable, and may fit the story better to make it the same, but that seems boring...theirs no feel of in another place, learning it, wondering whats around etc.... I hope they can come up with maybe 6-12 lands that maybe rotate (explained due to different reality connections or some such), or one of each is assigned to every server...That way you will probably get atleast 1 different land from your home type land each cycle...I know it sounds petty, but I loved the different look and feel of DAoC's three realms, and having to learn them, and it being the constant reminder, you are in a different place, than your own warfront. I also hope the siege type stuff is top notch. If they can make the WvWvW good enough, I would look past many bland/boring/broken other mechanics probably...
I am looking forward to GW2 the most, but if I am honest with myself, I will probably give both a shot. I do think that biowares thing of 'limited' pre-orders is some percieved shortage scam to get people to pre-order. It is working, so congrats to them, but I don't buy any of the excuses as to why it's real or how it's for the good of the game. Any arguement for it, can be shot down with an even lesser arguement against it, with solutions. I don't hold it against them though, people were mad at Trion for their beta weekend stuff, contests, etc....It seems to be the new model...In the end, make a good game, thats whats most important.
Have a look at this video, if you like. It's some TOR gameplay, uploaded in late July. Not immediately up to date, per say, but still relevant since not much has changed between then and now.
It starts off with a bit of the dialoge system, wich is interesting enough in its own right, but I'm curious: what happens if one of your party members DCs? Does the client immediately register he is offline? Or if it is his/her turn to participate in the conversation, will you all just sit there waiting?
Second, the conversation doesn't seem to have that much impact on what happens before or after the dialogue. I'm sure no matter what the players chose, it will all lead up to the same events anyway. So really, to me, it just seems like a waste of time, unless you like to watch more than you like to *play*.
Finally, the combat begins. I don't know about the rest of you, but aside from the basic MMO UI, I can hardly tell what's going on on screen to the enemy. All I see are stray blaster bolts, puffs of smoke, the occasional lightsaber glow, and a few explosions. Between those I see the rather bland looking character models, who move around like they're all droids.
One aspect of the game that really bothers me is the lack of "realism", in terms of the Star Wars universe, particularly the powers of the Jedi. Now, obviously you can't make Jedis realistic in regards to their powers, because they would steamroll anything that isn't a Jedi, but still, I find it weird that a Jedi can whack a droid or non-Jedi with a lightsaber and it might as well be a nerf sword. Where's the decapitation? The severing and instant cauterization of limbs? The droids being sliced in half with nothing but glowing, molten metal left behind? If I were to play a Jedi, I wouldn't FEEL like a Jedi. Especially if a Smuggler (or what have you) manages to shoot/kite me and kill me. It doesn't make much sense in the Star Wars universe.
I keep hearing about how amazing the environments are, but all I see (as far as interiors go) are linear hallways without much in them... A few stray crates here and there, a big ol' automatic door and the like, but other than that not much else. I haven't seen a whole lot in terms of exterior environments, but I am certain, however, that they are better, at least aesthetically.
One of the combat mechanics the narrator describes is... avoiding a big blue marker on the ground that indicates where an enemies' attack will land. Fun.
Another video I recall, I assume a few of you know of Athene, who had asked a TOR dev/representative about TOR's involvement with any PvP leagues, to which the dev said something along the lines of (and I paraphrase), "We're not really interested in that at the moment. We may look into it in the future." This leads me to believe that PvP is an after thought, and it won't be particularly balanced.
These are just more of my opinions derived from what I've seen, this time around I've tried not to make direct comparisons to GW2, and just let TOR be by itself, but even then, the game looks... Okay. Nothing special, nothing that really jumps out at me and makes me think, "I want to play that!". It just sort of... is, at the moment.
But, like I've said before, I obviously haven't played it. So here's to hoping that it exceeds my expectations.
Sorry you bought GW, really, didn't you do the trial? You'd have seen it was an old game, really quite old. Maybe good in the day, but I wouldn't pay for it now. I believe there were even threads on whether people should be getting the original until GW2 comes out. The more or less consensus, if there ever is such a thing on these forums, was to not get GW when expecting something like GW2. GW is not even an MMO but a CORPG.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...