The teensy, tiny number of people who want games with that kind of focus. There are literally not enough of those people to make a difference. Every other form of PvP is more popular - Battlegrounds, RvR, PvP zones in PvE worlds, etc. All more popular than PvP focused Worlds.
Everything else is just a result of that. Not enough investment for development? Teensy, tiny audience. Only left field developers who have no experience will do it? Teensy, tiny audience. Only one company managed to actually get a game to be self sustaining after twelve years? Teensy, tiny audience.
Since someone might mention Eve - Eve has the largest FFA PvP/World PvP audience...but most of their players do not run around in the low security space. I bet there are more people on Rift's PvP servers than there are running around in Eve's low security space. WoW's current active Battleground population (just the people who are in battlegrounds actively fighting right now) probably exceeds Eve's entire population.
Teensy, tiny population actually want a world PvP focused game. That's it.
True open world is indeed niche within the mmo space no doubt. The EVE point is somewhat wrong though in the fact that the limited number of "average joe" players in nullsec has far, far more to do with how it is controlled by corps than anything to do with people intrinsically going out of their way to avoid any chance of being killed.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
1. If every restaurant cost the same and McD's still sold the best, it could be considered the best restaurant.
Every MMORPG does cost the same (except the free ones) and WOW outsells them by a huge margin.
2. This isn't about right or wrong. It's merely fact-stating about what people like. You can't claim someone's opinion is "wrong".
3. I lied, you can call someone's opinion wrong: and I'm calling your opinion wrong when you say a world PVP game "done right" would sell equal to an instanced PVP game done right. The traits that make something world PVP just aren't what competitive players are looking for.
so it's not about right or wrong, except when you're right? way to go.
I get it, you're the type of guy who likes to talk about objective "facts", while simply throwing his subjective opitions around.
here's a fact though: that you believe WoW is the best game out there, based on its sub numbers, says more about your arguments than I ever could; I rest my case.
Two tyrants are destroying the PvP Servers: PvE Players and Incentive.
PvE Players: You guys and your damn yearning for "safe" PvP. Your cries have been answered. The result? Instanced and optional PvP mini-games, e.g., 8v8 team death-match, capture the flag, control points, take the hill, hutt-ball, and kick the can. I normally wouldn't mind, as PvE'rs should have a choice. HOWEVER, your bs axioms have spread to my PvP Servers. Innovation is lost; Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones now reside as the dominant form of PvP on both server types.
Incentive: Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones are limited. Normally, there are about 5-6 different instances that are solely dedicated to structured PvP. This becomes mind-numbingly redundant. Strategies are learned by all within 1 month. The match becomes a rinse and repeat type thing... over and over and over and over again. There is nothing "massive" about it.
So why do people do it on the PvP Servers? The PvP GEAR. The devs simply toss in a few cool looking duds, place an insanely high kill-point price, and watch the masses conform to the simple rules of kindergarten PvP.
THE FIX?
Either remove Instanced PvP from PvP Servers OR remove incentive from the Instanced PvP Games via PvP Server.
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Are some people still operating under the illusion that the majority of people who take part in instanced pvp in mmos are there because of the competitive aspect of it? Actually it is far more likely the case that it is due to the accessibilty not the competitiveness that is what makes them so popular.
Or wait, are people thinking that the majority of mmorpg arena players are part of voice com using clan pvp teams looking to roll in the next competition? Oh lawd.
Accessibility and ease of use and the ability to pick and choose when and where you fight are the primary driving forces behind the popularity of mmorpg instanced pvp. Not some elite level olympian ideal of competition.
Some really would have you believe that everyone who likes open world pvp is a mean old ganktard, whilst everyone who rolls in a pug in a WAR scenario is a pro gamer.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by lizardbones Here is what's 'killing' World PvP: The teensy, tiny number of people who want games with that kind of focus. There are literally not enough of those people to make a difference. Every other form of PvP is more popular - Battlegrounds, RvR, PvP zones in PvE worlds, etc. All more popular than PvP focused Worlds.
Everything else is just a result of that. Not enough investment for development? Teensy, tiny audience. Only left field developers who have no experience will do it? Teensy, tiny audience. Only one company managed to actually get a game to be self sustaining after twelve years? Teensy, tiny audience.
Since someone might mention Eve - Eve has the largest FFA PvP/World PvP audience...but most of their players do not run around in the low security space. I bet there are more people on Rift's PvP servers than there are running around in Eve's low security space. WoW's current active Battleground population (just the people who are in battlegrounds actively fighting right now) probably exceeds Eve's entire population.
Teensy, tiny population actually want a world PvP focused game. That's it.
True open world is indeed niche within the mmo space no doubt. The EVE point is somewhat wrong though in the fact that the limited number of "average joe" players in nullsec has far, far more to do with how it is controlled by corps than anything to do with people intrinsically going out of their way to avoid any chance of being killed.
It doesn't matter why most of Eve's population is in safe space or don't engage in PvP. The result is that most of Eve's population does not engage in cut throat PvP. However, in the game known as The FFA PvP game, most of the population doesn't do it. If they wanted to, they could, especially in Eve, but they don't.
A small audience relative to Eve's overall population, and a teensy tiny audience relative to all the people who play MMORPG.
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game. Darkfall could have a more successful game. Eve managed to mix a truly FFA space with a relatively safe space so that people who don't get into FFA PvP all that much can interact with FFA PvP players. That idea could be expanded.
Just because the audience is small doesn't mean the games have to be lame. You just aren't going to find games like Rift or WoW with true open world PvP servers.
** edit ** Also, I bet your post immediately above this one about accessibility makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't most people participate in something that is more accessible, gives them control, is more balanced (at least in numbers) and where they can leave it behind when they are done, but continue to otherwise play?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's not the PVE crowd that destroyes PVP, It's the baby PVP rules that destroyes it, no death penalty when die you jst respwn with minor loss if any, you can't loot the body not even one item, no meningfull PVP objectives, only ganking and mindless PVP.
If those things would be implented into a PVP server I bet half the wannabe PVPers would cry like little school girls and only the real hardcore PVPers stay, now THATS a server I want to play on.
It doesn't matter why most of Eve's population is in safe space or don't engage in PvP. The result is that most of Eve's population does not engage in cut throat PvP. However, in the game known as The FFA PvP game, most of the population doesn't do it. If they wanted to, they could, especially in Eve, but they don't.
A small audience relative to Eve's overall population, and a teensy tiny audience relative to all the people who play MMORPG.
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game. Darkfall could have a more successful game. Eve managed to mix a truly FFA space with a relatively safe space so that people who don't get into FFA PvP all that much can interact with FFA PvP players. That idea could be expanded.
Just because the audience is small doesn't mean the games have to be lame. You just aren't going to find games like Rift or WoW with true open world PvP servers.
Actually it does matter why alot of players within EVE's population are not in nullsec if you are implying that the reason is purely down to the dislike of open world pvp. When that clearly is not the full case.
Aside from relatively that minor point in the grand scheme of things, I agree.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones
It doesn't matter why most of Eve's population is in safe space or don't engage in PvP. The result is that most of Eve's population does not engage in cut throat PvP. However, in the game known as The FFA PvP game, most of the population doesn't do it. If they wanted to, they could, especially in Eve, but they don't.
A small audience relative to Eve's overall population, and a teensy tiny audience relative to all the people who play MMORPG.
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game. Darkfall could have a more successful game. Eve managed to mix a truly FFA space with a relatively safe space so that people who don't get into FFA PvP all that much can interact with FFA PvP players. That idea could be expanded.
Just because the audience is small doesn't mean the games have to be lame. You just aren't going to find games like Rift or WoW with true open world PvP servers.
Actually it does matter why alot of players within EVE's population are not in nullsec if you are implying that the reason is purely down to the dislike of open world pvp. When that clearly is not the full case.
Aside from relatively that minor point in the grand scheme of things, I agree.
For the purposes of my points, I'm talking about combat only, I'm not referring to economic PvP or people stealing money, etc. from corporate banks and such.
300,000 people are playing the game, so they want to play the game. Most of them aren't engaging in FFA PvP, so they don't want to. Why? Keep in mind that the majority of players do not engage in (combat) PvP at all. They aren't waiting for a large scale engagement, they just aren't out there shooting people. Answers that don't include reasons like, "They'd rather be mining" or "They'd rather be building stuff" or "They'd rather be bankrupting corporations in the market" don't make that much sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's not the PVE crowd that destroyes PVP, It's the baby PVP rules that destroyes it, no death penalty when die you jst respwn with minor loss if any, you can't loot the body not even one item, no meningfull PVP objective, only ganking and mindless PVP.
One other issue is that for most pve players in themepark games they would rather not see death penalties implimented mostly because it would be hazardous to the pve side of the gam which is normally the foocus of these games in themeparks atleast. I could see them doing it on pvp shard/server basis although still this would not make people want to go into world pvp at all, mostly since it would be an issue in bg-based pvp since you could overwelm the other team easier. it is sad to said that death penalties are really good for more pvp centric games, but are pretty problematic to the more pve centric games with afew excptions of course. I would not say that pvp is in pve games is meaningless sicne you have a goal even if it is merely a grinding of gear thru points, but it is not somethign like cconquering yoru oppenets lands as well as talking his objects. YOu could say the same arguement from the reverse though as well that to some pvper's the fact of just fighting another player as well as a chance to take their gear ismeaningless pvp as well, since it does not really progress their goals really. You are right we need meaningful pvp objeectives and goals in a game to have good pvp, yet those goal as well as objectives have to be meaningful to all pvper whatever they prefer to play of a pvp setting. As such you would need status progression, gear progression, land conquering, pilliging (ie item looting), death penelties, behavior regulations as well as enforcement; That though would have so mch issues since withoout meshing them together you will have niche groups doing one and hating the other since it might be better for this or that reason.
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Most of the people whining about boring PVP think that open-world PVP involves allowing them to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat. They aren't looking for a challenge. They're looking for their next adrenaline fix.
Do you really want "open-world" PVP? Join the military. There's more than enough adrenaline to go around, and you'll learn that your actions have consequences.
An MMO is a game. Games are meant to be played by people as a form of entertainment. For the vast majority of people, entertainment does not involve harming another person. Those who get enjoyment from harming other people are deviants. They are vilified, and usually put away for a long time. Or they are removed. Literally.
If you truly want open-world PVP in an MMO, then find one that doesn't allow levelling. Everybody starts off at level 1 and stays there. Then you'll be facing your opponent equally. The game could let them level for PVE, and give them all of the AC and DPS stats they need to compete against the PVE portion of the game. But, when they encounter another player and decide to fight, all stats and hp are dropped to level 1 for both of them.
Sound fun to you? No? It sounds great to me. Open-world PVP without any worry of being ganked.
Oh, that's right. You don't want fair. You don't want "balance". You want to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat.
For the purposes of my points, I'm talking about combat only, I'm not referring to economic PvP or people stealing money, etc. from corporate banks and such.
300,000 people are playing the game, so they want to play the game. Most of them aren't engaging in FFA PvP, so they don't want to. Why? Keep in mind that the majority of players do not engage in (combat) PvP at all. They aren't waiting for a large scale engagement, they just aren't out there shooting people. Answers that don't include reasons like, "They'd rather be mining" or "They'd rather be building stuff" or "They'd rather be bankrupting corporations in the market" don't make that much sense.
Forgive me but your initial mention of nullsec to point to the case that most in EVE do not want crazy full on pvp was a badly made point. Which is the only thing I have subsequently pointed out to you.
I am aware that not everyone in EVE wants to spend their time blowing up everyone they come across or engaging in piracy and/or fleet actions. But I often find people try and explain this by stating "but hardly anyone is in nullsec", then the fact of the case is that that is a very poor argument for the case that people don't want to pvp. Given the fact that there are other contributing factors as to why "most" don't spend alot of time in nullsec.
In essence the nullsec case to try and back up the claim that few want to pvp all the time in EVE is a bad case, plenty of people want into there, they just can't get into there. Pointing to the fact that many spend their time exploring, mining et al is though a good case for such an argument.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game.
There is a really good reason why Mortal Online is where it is. As a game, it is outright bad. Just... awful. *shudders* I can't find myself playing it even if I'm payed to do it. On top of that, the game had a catastrophic launch which never helps.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Most of the people whining about boring PVP think that open-world PVP involves allowing them to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat. They aren't looking for a challenge. They're looking for their next adrenaline fix.
Do you really want "open-world" PVP? Join the military. There's more than enough adrenaline to go around, and you'll learn that your actions have consequences.
An MMO is a game. Games are meant to be played by people as a form of entertainment. For the vast majority of people, entertainment does not involve harming another person. Those who get enjoyment from harming other people are deviants. They are vilified, and usually put away for a long time. Or they are removed. Literally.
If you truly want open-world PVP in an MMO, then find one that doesn't allow levelling. Everybody starts off at level 1 and stays there. Then you'll be facing your opponent equally. The game could let them level for PVE, and give them all of the AC and DPS stats they need to compete against the PVE portion of the game. But, when they encounter another player and decide to fight, all stats and hp are dropped to level 1 for both of them.
Sound fun to you? No? It sounds great to me. Open-world PVP without any worry of being ganked.
Oh, that's right. You don't want fair. You don't want "balance". You want to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat.
Nice rant. Following your line of reasoning, if you want competitve pvp join a boxing club?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Most of the people whining about boring PVP think that open-world PVP involves allowing them to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat. They aren't looking for a challenge. They're looking for their next adrenaline fix.
Do you really want "open-world" PVP? Join the military. There's more than enough adrenaline to go around, and you'll learn that your actions have consequences.
An MMO is a game. Games are meant to be played by people as a form of entertainment. For the vast majority of people, entertainment does not involve harming another person. Those who get enjoyment from harming other people are deviants. They are vilified, and usually put away for a long time. Or they are removed. Literally.
If you truly want open-world PVP in an MMO, then find one that doesn't allow levelling. Everybody starts off at level 1 and stays there. Then you'll be facing your opponent equally. The game could let them level for PVE, and give them all of the AC and DPS stats they need to compete against the PVE portion of the game. But, when they encounter another player and decide to fight, all stats and hp are dropped to level 1 for both of them.
Sound fun to you? No? It sounds great to me. Open-world PVP without any worry of being ganked.
Oh, that's right. You don't want fair. You don't want "balance". You want to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat.
Nice rant. Following your line of reasoning, if you want competitve pvp join a boxing club?
Because most are doing just fine within their Assisted-Living Facility, playing Bridge while on their Meds and Welfare.
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Most of the people whining about boring PVP think that open-world PVP involves allowing them to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat. They aren't looking for a challenge. They're looking for their next adrenaline fix.
Do you really want "open-world" PVP? Join the military. There's more than enough adrenaline to go around, and you'll learn that your actions have consequences.
An MMO is a game. Games are meant to be played by people as a form of entertainment. For the vast majority of people, entertainment does not involve harming another person. Those who get enjoyment from harming other people are deviants. They are vilified, and usually put away for a long time. Or they are removed. Literally.
If you truly want open-world PVP in an MMO, then find one that doesn't allow levelling. Everybody starts off at level 1 and stays there. Then you'll be facing your opponent equally. The game could let them level for PVE, and give them all of the AC and DPS stats they need to compete against the PVE portion of the game. But, when they encounter another player and decide to fight, all stats and hp are dropped to level 1 for both of them.
Sound fun to you? No? It sounds great to me. Open-world PVP without any worry of being ganked.
Oh, that's right. You don't want fair. You don't want "balance". You want to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat.
So you are basically saying anyone playing MMO's or Videogames in general as entertainment do not enjoy killing people? But as they're pixel and not real people and even if it's not a person controlled character you are still killing a boss or 10 bandits and these are considered people by what you're saying and as entertainment... so let's use Wow they had a 10 million subscriber based at one point, so that's 10 million killing peole for entertainment with let's say 2 million killing others in PvP
yeah we PVE players destroy MMOs like WaR and AOC,oh wait the one said we have only PVP and was a flop and the other decided to go more PVE and made more money
Oh and one more thing PVErs DONT ARGUE about PVP in forums PVPers do.If anything PVPers destroy PVErs games because the cant handle the diference in classes and whine all the time(Of course PVErs whine too,but the scale is more in favor of PVPers)
Anyway PVP in themepark games is meaningless so who cares.
well pretty serious,i mean i dont think a PVE player will go and say "OMG NERF "class" HE CAN ONESHOT ME FFSOMGWTF and random shits" a PVE player most likely will wine about balance in PVE like "OMG I AM UNDERPOWERED SO I CANT DO "random number of DPS" like the other "class"" (but i undestand the missunderstanding cause i had to clarify,Dont argue about PVP balance
Oh and one more thing PVErs DONT ARGUE about PVP in forums PVPers do.
So I take your a PvP player then, welcome friend!
I dont argue about PVP iam a PVEr that thought to take place in a We blame the PVErs post(the title sugests that at least)
but since iam in the dance floor ill dance
For me the best PVP would be the one where classes worked tottally diferent in PVP and PVE or in a style where you dont have RNG and gear dependant and no 1vs1 balance which i find stupid as an idea
As for WaR,no it didnt floped because it didnt had any PVE but it lost a great number of subs for that reason(me for example Warhammer lore is quite nice and can offer unpararell PVE experience)
Imo Eve Online was the only company to get pvp done correctly. You have you "semi-safe" high sec zones set up and your 'free-for-all" on null sec/ 0.0 space. Darkfall (as and example) fell short because a person (a while back) could login for the 1st time and within 5 min be killed which turned many away from the game.
The real problem is that pvpers started ganking lowbies and contious griefing/harrasing of players. Companies didnt help by creating a systems that allow twinking, over-the-top gear improvments, and bad class balancing. No player should ever be able to 1-2 shot another. Thats not pvp that just ganking. With this said a player does not have to take advantage of the system.
The OP is entitled to his opinion, but imo dont blame the pve'ers. Blame the bad section of the PVP community that caused this. Personally, I happen to enjoy Eve's style of pvp, but i happen to enjoy battlegerounds, arenas, and warzones also.
***Teaches Jamyl Sarum how to dance!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Nice rant. Following your line of reasoning, if you want competitve pvp join a boxing club?
It was a bit of a rant. It wasn't directed at anybody in particular.
But, yes, a boxing club would be another good analogy. There are reasons that boxers are restricted to fighting within their own weight class. I don't think there are many 250 lb. boxers whining about how it isn't fair that they can't fight in a match against a 160 lb. opponent.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game.
There is a really good reason why Mortal Online is where it is. As a game, it is outright bad. Just... awful. *shudders* I can't find myself playing it even if I'm payed to do it. On top of that, the game had a catastrophic launch which never helps.
I was thinking more in the term of PvP/non-PvP audience. There is an audience for a open world FFA PvP game. Perpetuum is a decent game developed by 10 people and it has open world ffa pvp like Eve. It can be done.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So you are basically saying anyone playing MMO's or Videogames in general as entertainment do not enjoy killing people? But as they're pixel and not real people and even if it's not a person controlled character you are still killing a boss or 10 bandits and these are considered people by what you're saying and as entertainment... so let's use Wow they had a 10 million subscriber based at one point, so that's 10 million killing peole for entertainment with let's say 2 million killing others in PvP
Are you saying that you can't tell the difference between a "pixel" controlled by AI and a "pixel" controlled by another human being? Or are you saying that 10 million OTHER people can't tell the difference.
Nice rant. Following your line of reasoning, if you want competitve pvp join a boxing club?
It was a bit of a rant. It wasn't directed at anybody in particular.
But, yes, a boxing club would be another good analogy. There are reasons that boxers are restricted to fighting within their own weight class. I don't think there are many 250 lb. boxers whining about how it isn't fair that they can't fight in a match against a 160 lb. opponent.
Which would be a valid point if open world combat was not trying to simulate... open world combat and instead be more like a football match or boxing fight. As open world is not trying to be an "e-sport" it seems rather ridiculous to try and apply e-sport metrics to it and to get all bent out of shape when not all combat in the game is inherently "fair".
A boxer crying that he cannot fight an opponent with a severe weight disparity would be rather idiotic as it is completely against the rules. Much in the same way that someone who takes part in games that impose no restrictions upon combat are rather idiotic if they then go and moan about that very fact.
Really though, trying to suggest that everyone in an open world game is only there because they want to destroy newbs, or that they should go an join the millitary is somewhat daft. I can though fully appreciate why people would not like or be interested in open world pvp games, especially mmorpgs which have a progression metric that can make open world combat even more unfair than normal.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by Lobotomist
What is destroying PVP ? = Risk free PVP Make player lose much by dying. Than Penalise player for random violence , by factions and lawful flags.
Bingo Now players PVP only where it matters. Everyone happy
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Most of the people whining about boring PVP think that open-world PVP involves allowing them to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat. They aren't looking for a challenge. They're looking for their next adrenaline fix.
Do you really want "open-world" PVP? Join the military. There's more than enough adrenaline to go around, and you'll learn that your actions have consequences.
An MMO is a game. Games are meant to be played by people as a form of entertainment. For the vast majority of people, entertainment does not involve harming another person. Those who get enjoyment from harming other people are deviants. They are vilified, and usually put away for a long time. Or they are removed. Literally.
If you truly want open-world PVP in an MMO, then find one that doesn't allow levelling. Everybody starts off at level 1 and stays there. Then you'll be facing your opponent equally. The game could let them level for PVE, and give them all of the AC and DPS stats they need to compete against the PVE portion of the game. But, when they encounter another player and decide to fight, all stats and hp are dropped to level 1 for both of them.
Sound fun to you? No? It sounds great to me. Open-world PVP without any worry of being ganked.
Oh, that's right. You don't want fair. You don't want "balance". You want to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat.
So you are basically saying anyone playing MMO's or Videogames in general as entertainment do not enjoy killing people? But as they're pixel and not real people and even if it's not a person controlled character you are still killing a boss or 10 bandits and these are considered people by what you're saying and as entertainment... so let's use Wow they had a 10 million subscriber based at one point, so that's 10 million killing peole for entertainment with let's say 2 million killing others in PvP
Actually he/she is saying that gankers enjoy the act of feeling superior to a person that is basically defenseless, though he/she gets rather generalized in his/her rant abotu halfway thru (the red area). Even though you can still tell that they are talking about getting enjoyment as well as entertainment out of defeating and or killing a largely defenseless target. TYhis is true for some pvpers really, and i have seen many admit it as well without any care for saying it. I will guess you wanted to just poke fun at the fact they lost thier point half way thru, instead of just saying you have poor reading skills.
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones
For the purposes of my points, I'm talking about combat only, I'm not referring to economic PvP or people stealing money, etc. from corporate banks and such.
300,000 people are playing the game, so they want to play the game. Most of them aren't engaging in FFA PvP, so they don't want to. Why? Keep in mind that the majority of players do not engage in (combat) PvP at all. They aren't waiting for a large scale engagement, they just aren't out there shooting people. Answers that don't include reasons like, "They'd rather be mining" or "They'd rather be building stuff" or "They'd rather be bankrupting corporations in the market" don't make that much sense.
Forgive me but your initial mention of nullsec to point to the case that most in EVE do not want crazy full on pvp was a badly made point. Which is the only thing I have subsequently pointed out to you.
I am aware that not everyone in EVE wants to spend their time blowing up everyone they come across or engaging in piracy and/or fleet actions. But I often find people try and explain this by stating "but hardly anyone is in nullsec", then the fact of the case is that that is a very poor argument for the case that people don't want to pvp. Given the fact that there are other contributing factors as to why "most" don't spend alot of time in nullsec.
In essence the nullsec case to try and back up the claim that few want to pvp all the time in EVE is a bad case, plenty of people want into there, they just can't get into there. Pointing to the fact that many spend their time exploring, mining et al is though a good case for such an argument.
I didn't really get into the 'why' because I truly don't think it matters when you're talking about why there is so much more money thrown at PvE games with a PvP component. The important part (to me) was the number of people who are actually paying money to engage in PvP in a PvP centric game.
There are 11,000,000 people into PvE MMORPG with a PvP component and 300,000 people into PvP MMORPG. Of that 300,000, 200,000 don't participate that much in the PvP. That leaves 100,000 people who actually participate in the PvP side of PvP centric MMORPG.
That's 1% or less of the market assuming everyone who plays an MMORPG plays WoW and/or Eve*. Most investors will look at the 1%, shrug and throw money at something like Rift.
There is a HUGE market for PvP games. There just isn't a HUGE market for PvP based MMORPG, especially open world or FFA PvP MMORPG. There doesn't need to be any other reason because that reason alone is enough to end up with the current MMORPG market.
* The 'market' is actually a good bit bigger than that. I'm also ignoring the very large Asian market, where open world PvP and FFA PvP is much more popular...possibly even as or more popular than PvE with PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
True open world is indeed niche within the mmo space no doubt. The EVE point is somewhat wrong though in the fact that the limited number of "average joe" players in nullsec has far, far more to do with how it is controlled by corps than anything to do with people intrinsically going out of their way to avoid any chance of being killed.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
so it's not about right or wrong, except when you're right? way to go.
I get it, you're the type of guy who likes to talk about objective "facts", while simply throwing his subjective opitions around.
here's a fact though: that you believe WoW is the best game out there, based on its sub numbers, says more about your arguments than I ever could; I rest my case.
Totally agree with you. Most PvP games these days are instanced and pretty boring. There is no freedom like there used to be. We're always confined in a small room which is neither exciting nor fun.
The small group of people whining about "balance" etc are the people ruining mmo pvp.
Are some people still operating under the illusion that the majority of people who take part in instanced pvp in mmos are there because of the competitive aspect of it? Actually it is far more likely the case that it is due to the accessibilty not the competitiveness that is what makes them so popular.
Or wait, are people thinking that the majority of mmorpg arena players are part of voice com using clan pvp teams looking to roll in the next competition? Oh lawd.
Accessibility and ease of use and the ability to pick and choose when and where you fight are the primary driving forces behind the popularity of mmorpg instanced pvp. Not some elite level olympian ideal of competition.
Some really would have you believe that everyone who likes open world pvp is a mean old ganktard, whilst everyone who rolls in a pug in a WAR scenario is a pro gamer.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It doesn't matter why most of Eve's population is in safe space or don't engage in PvP. The result is that most of Eve's population does not engage in cut throat PvP. However, in the game known as The FFA PvP game, most of the population doesn't do it. If they wanted to, they could, especially in Eve, but they don't.
A small audience relative to Eve's overall population, and a teensy tiny audience relative to all the people who play MMORPG.
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game. Darkfall could have a more successful game. Eve managed to mix a truly FFA space with a relatively safe space so that people who don't get into FFA PvP all that much can interact with FFA PvP players. That idea could be expanded.
Just because the audience is small doesn't mean the games have to be lame. You just aren't going to find games like Rift or WoW with true open world PvP servers.
** edit **
Also, I bet your post immediately above this one about accessibility makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't most people participate in something that is more accessible, gives them control, is more balanced (at least in numbers) and where they can leave it behind when they are done, but continue to otherwise play?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's not the PVE crowd that destroyes PVP, It's the baby PVP rules that destroyes it, no death penalty when die you jst respwn with minor loss if any, you can't loot the body not even one item, no meningfull PVP objectives, only ganking and mindless PVP.
If those things would be implented into a PVP server I bet half the wannabe PVPers would cry like little school girls and only the real hardcore PVPers stay, now THATS a server I want to play on.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Actually it does matter why alot of players within EVE's population are not in nullsec if you are implying that the reason is purely down to the dislike of open world pvp. When that clearly is not the full case.
Aside from relatively that minor point in the grand scheme of things, I agree.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It doesn't matter why most of Eve's population is in safe space or don't engage in PvP. The result is that most of Eve's population does not engage in cut throat PvP. However, in the game known as The FFA PvP game, most of the population doesn't do it. If they wanted to, they could, especially in Eve, but they don't.
A small audience relative to Eve's overall population, and a teensy tiny audience relative to all the people who play MMORPG.
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game. Darkfall could have a more successful game. Eve managed to mix a truly FFA space with a relatively safe space so that people who don't get into FFA PvP all that much can interact with FFA PvP players. That idea could be expanded.
Just because the audience is small doesn't mean the games have to be lame. You just aren't going to find games like Rift or WoW with true open world PvP servers.
Actually it does matter why alot of players within EVE's population are not in nullsec if you are implying that the reason is purely down to the dislike of open world pvp. When that clearly is not the full case.
Aside from relatively that minor point in the grand scheme of things, I agree.
For the purposes of my points, I'm talking about combat only, I'm not referring to economic PvP or people stealing money, etc. from corporate banks and such.
300,000 people are playing the game, so they want to play the game. Most of them aren't engaging in FFA PvP, so they don't want to. Why? Keep in mind that the majority of players do not engage in (combat) PvP at all. They aren't waiting for a large scale engagement, they just aren't out there shooting people. Answers that don't include reasons like, "They'd rather be mining" or "They'd rather be building stuff" or "They'd rather be bankrupting corporations in the market" don't make that much sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
One other issue is that for most pve players in themepark games they would rather not see death penalties implimented mostly because it would be hazardous to the pve side of the gam which is normally the foocus of these games in themeparks atleast. I could see them doing it on pvp shard/server basis although still this would not make people want to go into world pvp at all, mostly since it would be an issue in bg-based pvp since you could overwelm the other team easier. it is sad to said that death penalties are really good for more pvp centric games, but are pretty problematic to the more pve centric games with afew excptions of course. I would not say that pvp is in pve games is meaningless sicne you have a goal even if it is merely a grinding of gear thru points, but it is not somethign like cconquering yoru oppenets lands as well as talking his objects. YOu could say the same arguement from the reverse though as well that to some pvper's the fact of just fighting another player as well as a chance to take their gear ismeaningless pvp as well, since it does not really progress their goals really. You are right we need meaningful pvp objeectives and goals in a game to have good pvp, yet those goal as well as objectives have to be meaningful to all pvper whatever they prefer to play of a pvp setting. As such you would need status progression, gear progression, land conquering, pilliging (ie item looting), death penelties, behavior regulations as well as enforcement; That though would have so mch issues since withoout meshing them together you will have niche groups doing one and hating the other since it might be better for this or that reason.
Most of the people whining about boring PVP think that open-world PVP involves allowing them to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat. They aren't looking for a challenge. They're looking for their next adrenaline fix.
Do you really want "open-world" PVP? Join the military. There's more than enough adrenaline to go around, and you'll learn that your actions have consequences.
An MMO is a game. Games are meant to be played by people as a form of entertainment. For the vast majority of people, entertainment does not involve harming another person. Those who get enjoyment from harming other people are deviants. They are vilified, and usually put away for a long time. Or they are removed. Literally.
If you truly want open-world PVP in an MMO, then find one that doesn't allow levelling. Everybody starts off at level 1 and stays there. Then you'll be facing your opponent equally. The game could let them level for PVE, and give them all of the AC and DPS stats they need to compete against the PVE portion of the game. But, when they encounter another player and decide to fight, all stats and hp are dropped to level 1 for both of them.
Sound fun to you? No? It sounds great to me. Open-world PVP without any worry of being ganked.
Oh, that's right. You don't want fair. You don't want "balance". You want to beat a quadriplegic to death with a baseball bat.
Forgive me but your initial mention of nullsec to point to the case that most in EVE do not want crazy full on pvp was a badly made point. Which is the only thing I have subsequently pointed out to you.
I am aware that not everyone in EVE wants to spend their time blowing up everyone they come across or engaging in piracy and/or fleet actions. But I often find people try and explain this by stating "but hardly anyone is in nullsec", then the fact of the case is that that is a very poor argument for the case that people don't want to pvp. Given the fact that there are other contributing factors as to why "most" don't spend alot of time in nullsec.
In essence the nullsec case to try and back up the claim that few want to pvp all the time in EVE is a bad case, plenty of people want into there, they just can't get into there. Pointing to the fact that many spend their time exploring, mining et al is though a good case for such an argument.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There is a really good reason why Mortal Online is where it is. As a game, it is outright bad. Just... awful. *shudders* I can't find myself playing it even if I'm payed to do it. On top of that, the game had a catastrophic launch which never helps.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Nice rant. Following your line of reasoning, if you want competitve pvp join a boxing club?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Because most are doing just fine within their Assisted-Living Facility, playing Bridge while on their Meds and Welfare.
So you are basically saying anyone playing MMO's or Videogames in general as entertainment do not enjoy killing people? But as they're pixel and not real people and even if it's not a person controlled character you are still killing a boss or 10 bandits and these are considered people by what you're saying and as entertainment... so let's use Wow they had a 10 million subscriber based at one point, so that's 10 million killing peole for entertainment with let's say 2 million killing others in PvP
well pretty serious,i mean i dont think a PVE player will go and say "OMG NERF "class" HE CAN ONESHOT ME FFSOMGWTF and random shits" a PVE player most likely will wine about balance in PVE like "OMG I AM UNDERPOWERED SO I CANT DO "random number of DPS" like the other "class"" (but i undestand the missunderstanding cause i had to clarify,Dont argue about PVP balance
@askdaboss
So I take your a PvP player then, welcome friend!
I dont argue about PVP iam a PVEr that thought to take place in a We blame the PVErs post(the title sugests that at least)
but since iam in the dance floor ill dance
For me the best PVP would be the one where classes worked tottally diferent in PVP and PVE or in a style where you dont have RNG and gear dependant and no 1vs1 balance which i find stupid as an idea
As for WaR,no it didnt floped because it didnt had any PVE but it lost a great number of subs for that reason(me for example Warhammer lore is quite nice and can offer unpararell PVE experience)
Imo Eve Online was the only company to get pvp done correctly. You have you "semi-safe" high sec zones set up and your 'free-for-all" on null sec/ 0.0 space. Darkfall (as and example) fell short because a person (a while back) could login for the 1st time and within 5 min be killed which turned many away from the game.
The real problem is that pvpers started ganking lowbies and contious griefing/harrasing of players. Companies didnt help by creating a systems that allow twinking, over-the-top gear improvments, and bad class balancing. No player should ever be able to 1-2 shot another. Thats not pvp that just ganking. With this said a player does not have to take advantage of the system.
The OP is entitled to his opinion, but imo dont blame the pve'ers. Blame the bad section of the PVP community that caused this. Personally, I happen to enjoy Eve's style of pvp, but i happen to enjoy battlegerounds, arenas, and warzones also.
***Teaches Jamyl Sarum how to dance!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
It was a bit of a rant. It wasn't directed at anybody in particular.
But, yes, a boxing club would be another good analogy. There are reasons that boxers are restricted to fighting within their own weight class. I don't think there are many 250 lb. boxers whining about how it isn't fair that they can't fight in a match against a 160 lb. opponent.
I do think that there is an audience though. There's no real good reason why Mortal Online is such a piece of cr@p game.
There is a really good reason why Mortal Online is where it is. As a game, it is outright bad. Just... awful. *shudders* I can't find myself playing it even if I'm payed to do it. On top of that, the game had a catastrophic launch which never helps.
I was thinking more in the term of PvP/non-PvP audience. There is an audience for a open world FFA PvP game. Perpetuum is a decent game developed by 10 people and it has open world ffa pvp like Eve. It can be done.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Are you saying that you can't tell the difference between a "pixel" controlled by AI and a "pixel" controlled by another human being? Or are you saying that 10 million OTHER people can't tell the difference.
Which would be a valid point if open world combat was not trying to simulate... open world combat and instead be more like a football match or boxing fight. As open world is not trying to be an "e-sport" it seems rather ridiculous to try and apply e-sport metrics to it and to get all bent out of shape when not all combat in the game is inherently "fair".
A boxer crying that he cannot fight an opponent with a severe weight disparity would be rather idiotic as it is completely against the rules. Much in the same way that someone who takes part in games that impose no restrictions upon combat are rather idiotic if they then go and moan about that very fact.
Really though, trying to suggest that everyone in an open world game is only there because they want to destroy newbs, or that they should go an join the millitary is somewhat daft. I can though fully appreciate why people would not like or be interested in open world pvp games, especially mmorpgs which have a progression metric that can make open world combat even more unfair than normal.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
So Ultima Online, but pre-Trammel?Actually he/she is saying that gankers enjoy the act of feeling superior to a person that is basically defenseless, though he/she gets rather generalized in his/her rant abotu halfway thru (the red area). Even though you can still tell that they are talking about getting enjoyment as well as entertainment out of defeating and or killing a largely defenseless target. TYhis is true for some pvpers really, and i have seen many admit it as well without any care for saying it. I will guess you wanted to just poke fun at the fact they lost thier point half way thru, instead of just saying you have poor reading skills.
For the purposes of my points, I'm talking about combat only, I'm not referring to economic PvP or people stealing money, etc. from corporate banks and such.
300,000 people are playing the game, so they want to play the game. Most of them aren't engaging in FFA PvP, so they don't want to. Why? Keep in mind that the majority of players do not engage in (combat) PvP at all. They aren't waiting for a large scale engagement, they just aren't out there shooting people. Answers that don't include reasons like, "They'd rather be mining" or "They'd rather be building stuff" or "They'd rather be bankrupting corporations in the market" don't make that much sense.
Forgive me but your initial mention of nullsec to point to the case that most in EVE do not want crazy full on pvp was a badly made point. Which is the only thing I have subsequently pointed out to you.
I am aware that not everyone in EVE wants to spend their time blowing up everyone they come across or engaging in piracy and/or fleet actions. But I often find people try and explain this by stating "but hardly anyone is in nullsec", then the fact of the case is that that is a very poor argument for the case that people don't want to pvp. Given the fact that there are other contributing factors as to why "most" don't spend alot of time in nullsec.
In essence the nullsec case to try and back up the claim that few want to pvp all the time in EVE is a bad case, plenty of people want into there, they just can't get into there. Pointing to the fact that many spend their time exploring, mining et al is though a good case for such an argument.
I didn't really get into the 'why' because I truly don't think it matters when you're talking about why there is so much more money thrown at PvE games with a PvP component. The important part (to me) was the number of people who are actually paying money to engage in PvP in a PvP centric game.
There are 11,000,000 people into PvE MMORPG with a PvP component and 300,000 people into PvP MMORPG. Of that 300,000, 200,000 don't participate that much in the PvP. That leaves 100,000 people who actually participate in the PvP side of PvP centric MMORPG.
That's 1% or less of the market assuming everyone who plays an MMORPG plays WoW and/or Eve*. Most investors will look at the 1%, shrug and throw money at something like Rift.
There is a HUGE market for PvP games. There just isn't a HUGE market for PvP based MMORPG, especially open world or FFA PvP MMORPG. There doesn't need to be any other reason because that reason alone is enough to end up with the current MMORPG market.
* The 'market' is actually a good bit bigger than that. I'm also ignoring the very large Asian market, where open world PvP and FFA PvP is much more popular...possibly even as or more popular than PvE with PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Really so simple ?
Wonder why the hunderes og game companys and thousends of developers are so much more stupid then you...
oh wait... maybe its because they dont want servers with an overall population of 20 hardcore nerds.