Where to begin.. I largely find the people who bleat about "Full loot open world PVP" are the kind who would camp the spawn point in Pre-trammel UO and gank people who hadn't completely loaded into the game the first time.
And mysteriously are the ones who never -do- play the challenging pvp games were you stand to lose a lot if you die, Because, well, -they- stand to lose a lot. Your standard Themepark mmo pvper is the type that gets to max level and gets his jollies ganking people who are half their level with no real chance of winning. Anybody who's set foot in Stranglethorn Vale on a pvp server in classic WoW understands what I'm talking about.
The strange thing is, you never see this kind of player trolling games that cater to the PVPer, like EVE. Okay, I'll be honest, I'm a straight up hardcore carebear. I want to get some pvp action, I'll load up TF2, but I played EVE, a game that allowed people to lock on and open fire on you anywhere and everywhere. Granted in the more civilized parts of the galaxy, doing so meant the cops would find you and kill you, but it was doable. Hell, I saw more than my share of high sec piracy flying into Jita for my monthiy PLEX. The thing is, it was never one Solo ganker. while solo ganking was doable in EvE, most involved gamping gates, or combined arms tactics with one guy tackling he victim while others poured on the pain.
I also bring up Pirates of the Burning Sea, which had open pvp if you sailed through a contested zone (inevitable, as people always kept the capital ports of each country in a contested zone), where, if you died, you could easily lose your ship, and DEFINITELY lost all your cargo.yet, you never saw single gankers here, because the mechanics of the game nearly every aspect of the game heavily reliant on other players
Then there's darkfall. I've never precisely played this one, but I heard it was the big bad legendary "Open World Full Loot PVP" game people had been clamoring for, to the point where, back when it was in beta, the game had a higher hype than GW2 has now, even with all the fanboys manipulating the hype meter. yet, now that it's out and people have their wish... I hear a whole lot of nothing regarding the game.
Yet, the PVP whiners never go and try games like eve where such things are possible, you hear them scream and cry and rage and whargarrble for "Open world Full Loot PVP"when there are games that already have it, just not on their terms. And they want to enforce their style of play on others who want nothing to do with it.
..And yet somehow the PVEers are the tyrants?
Well Full Loot PvP games the items you lose are easily replaced; and you never went hunting with a flaming sword or blue diamond armor as you were just a bullseye for some PK. That's always or should be in the back of your mind on what to take, at how you will most likely lose it from some person that takes you by surprise.
Darkfall items you never grew attached to them because they will eith break through use or stolen by death; so flashy items were reserved for showing off in town unless you had multiples, or were skilled enough where you didn't think some pk(s) would take you out.
The majority of gankers or spawn campers who do the things you said are the immature players and kids. They either don't have the skill to face you one on one so they do their best to take you by surprise or just are the type of person that enjoys giving misery to others.
In Darkfall I've seen a friend take on two would be pkers at once and win, so skill is your friend in open world pvp, as he said "If you can't take Open PvP then get the *bleep* out of my game and go play WoW".
>>an open pvp game needs to provide ample punishment , massive penalty's for unlawfull kills<<
How is it an open pvp game, then, if you can't pvp in it without being banned for a week? How do you differentiate between "lawful" and "unlawful"? If pvp is "lawful" only in some area, how exactly is it different from instanced pvp?
Also, what stops me from power-leveling, say, 10 characters to a relatively small level and then just switching them? So I've killed 10 pve players, got my character into jail for two weeks... tomorrow I take another char and kill those same 10 with him. That'll learn them.
One character per account? That would inconvenience everyone else. So I'm griefing everyone - EVERYONE - without even loggin in! Yay me!
See? "Harsh penalties"? Bah. Griefers will find their way around them.
See this was the beauty of L2 PVP system back in the day, you couldnt just power level 10 characters to a certain level without other ppl already being at a level where they will own you, equipment also doesnt drop of every other rat, while it was harsh it meant ppl worked for it, if you were in a position to level another character for PVP you are already in a really powerful clan and didnt need to. Sure there will always be grifers that is a fact, but the thing is they will be mitigated by everyone playing by the rules, a griefer in L2 wouldnt last long, you would eventually piss of the wrong clan, and ppl would just take your stuff when you died.
Contrary to popular belief the more powerful clans didnt really care about getting into fights with the average joe playing the game, any game that wants to be series about open world pvp needs to have a really good clan system to encourage ppl to band together and fight for something, with the problem being when ppl think free for all pvp they thinki "how can this fit into wow with 100 random joes running around bad mouthing everyone and not caring about anything or anyone".
Two tyrants are destroying the PvP Servers: PvE Players and Incentive.
PvE Players: You guys and your damn yearning for "safe" PvP. Your cries have been answered. The result? Instanced and optional PvP mini-games, e.g., 8v8 team death-match, capture the flag, control points, take the hill, hutt-ball, and kick the can. I normally wouldn't mind, as PvE'rs should have a choice. HOWEVER, your bs axioms have spread to my PvP Servers. Innovation is lost; Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones now reside as the dominant form of PvP on both server types.
Incentive: Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones are limited. Normally, there are about 5-6 different instances that are solely dedicated to structured PvP. This becomes mind-numbingly redundant. Strategies are learned by all within 1 month. The match becomes a rinse and repeat type thing... over and over and over and over again. There is nothing "massive" about it.
So why do people do it on the PvP Servers? The PvP GEAR. The devs simply toss in a few cool looking duds, place an insanely high kill-point price, and watch the masses conform to the simple rules of kindergarten PvP.
THE FIX?
Either remove Instanced PvP from PvP Servers OR remove incentive from the Instanced PvP Games via PvP Server.
Since the thread has drifted somewhat from the OP......
Your 2nd reason, Incentive is the root cause of the first problem really. On PVP servers such as WOW has, the incentive is to reward players far more for the instanced combat vs the open world.
Make it so that open world PVP is more rewarding and more people will do it.
But if you don't put controls in place to prevent the server from becoming a total gank fest no one will play.
Look to the low populations on DAOC's original FFA PVP servers if you want to see a good example. (even though I enjoyed playing there despite being a PVE carebear at heart)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IPY 2 the Ultima Online Server I liked how they dealt with PK's in their Open Loot world, they added 2 professions that you earned your way to becoming. Detective and Paladin -
Detective - you had a book and you would use Forensic Evaulation on a body you found, if the person died from a PK and reported them for murder then your detective would get a "clue" like a dagger or blood. You would need threeof these clues from people killed by that pk to point the blame at the character, you would turn in the clues to a GM detective and he would spawn 3 Mercenary NPCS near the pk who will attempt to kill him/her. When/If they kill the target the Detective is rewarded with w hatever items the PK had on him at the time and the PK is sent to Jail in Yew, (with a whole other system for the PK to get himself out of jail depending on murder counts)
Paladins - You can not become one if you have a murder count on any character in your account. Never tried one but it's just another PK stalker profession with maybe some ability or reward for stopping PK's.
It's not the fault of PvEers, it's the fault of softcore PvPers.
Its the fault of the PvErs that consider themselves also PvPers when in reality they are not, and simply cant take the heat.
No if you pvp even slightly for one or two hours a day you are a pvper weither that is hardcore or not you are still a pvper. What is killing the pvp that you or others like weither it be open world ffa, meaningful death penalty based pvp, free looting pvp, or what ever other kind of pvp others might like. I could say what you say against those pvper that want instances that have pvp based encouters as well as factions fighitn and competing with each other inside them. IF you pvp you are a pvper, if you pve you are a pveer, if you do both you are both simple as that. IT is merely that people do not want to have to deal with gankers, griefer, or unwanted pvp, which is why so many like bg's and non open world pvp it is a level playing field to enjoy somethign without worrying about that pvper that is going to camp you,, or that obnoioua characetr that would annoying you after you or he died in a pvp fight. Saddly griefing, ganking, and just poor sportsmenship attidute has also made oopen world pvp disliked or hated by most of the pop of mmos.
again, no
PvP is player vs player. simple as that. it engulfs every single aspect of this interaction.
ganking is PvP, zerging is PvP, battlegrounds is PvP, world RvR is PvP. PvP is inherently a game mode that will be fair in 5% of the cases, and tremendously unfair one way or the other in the rest. a PvPer will enjoy themall because, well....he enjoys the very same idea of human vs human confrontation.
You may favour some over the other , but If you cant and let me remark, CANT stand one of them and you are gonna cry like a little girl, you are not a real PvPer, you just happen to like a small sub-set of what PvP stands for.
And the problem comes when people diss out those who will gladly embrace PvP in all its forms, and try (and worse, succeed) at forcing devs to implement games that purposedly filter out some of the PvP interactions, because those are too reckless and cuttroathing for their faltering hearts.
Two tyrants of PvP servers are kids who nerdrage on forums because they can't wtfpwnz0r everyone like they did before in CS and housewifes who had no idea what server they've picked when they made a char and now fish in warfronts.
It's not the fault of PvEers, it's the fault of softcore PvPers.
Its the fault of the PvErs that consider themselves also PvPers when in reality they are not, and simply cant take the heat.
No if you pvp even slightly for one or two hours a day you are a pvper weither that is hardcore or not you are still a pvper. What is killing the pvp that you or others like weither it be open world ffa, meaningful death penalty based pvp, free looting pvp, or what ever other kind of pvp others might like. I could say what you say against those pvper that want instances that have pvp based encouters as well as factions fighitn and competing with each other inside them. IF you pvp you are a pvper, if you pve you are a pveer, if you do both you are both simple as that. IT is merely that people do not want to have to deal with gankers, griefer, or unwanted pvp, which is why so many like bg's and non open world pvp it is a level playing field to enjoy somethign without worrying about that pvper that is going to camp you,, or that obnoioua characetr that would annoying you after you or he died in a pvp fight. Saddly griefing, ganking, and just poor sportsmenship attidute has also made oopen world pvp disliked or hated by most of the pop of mmos.
again, no
PvP is player vs player. simple as that. it engulfs every single aspect of this interaction.
ganking is PvP, zerging is PvP, battlegrounds is PvP, world RvR is PvP. PvP is inherently a game mode that will be fair in 5% of the cases, and tremendously unfair one way or the other in the rest. a PvPer will enjoy themall because, well....he enjoys the very same idea of human vs human confrontation.
You may favour some over the other , but If you cant and let me remark, CANT stand one of them and you are gonna cry like a little girl, you are not a real PvPer, you just happen to like a small sub-set of what PvP stands for.
And the problem comes when you diss out those who will gladly embrace PvP in all its forms. Those are the only real PvPers, not you.
A pvper is a player that enjoy pvpng period weither you dislike or otherwise disapprove of how another pvper plays has no effect on weither you are a pvper, it is the same for a pver that likes instances but hates questing and raiding. By you standard that pver is not a pver because they like one or afew of the thigns that make up pve content. Also you sound like onee of those whining girls because you hate to be grouped up with peopel that prefer one play or another. I have played from uo to now. And your last statement is laughable since peopel that wnat to feel better then others and degrade them based on their chosen form of enterianment are why people stire clear of pvp centric games. It is not the ffam or open word, or open loot that ruins it, it is the fact that someoen has to somehow validate their choice and ability as being better. Aso what you or i think a pvper is matters abotu as much as dirt sicne ones opinion (atleast to me) is important only if they are important, to a company if you pvp in any form you are a pvper same with pveers. The personal belief is worth to the company and devs.
LLet me add that your last comment shows why pvp has gone the way it has. A true pvper would fight to keep what they enjoy in game not roll over, but pvper rarely fight the changes that take away the type of play they want. I have sen it too much in forums as well as in game, yet they also whine when they do not get games that have their style in it, but never try and get it implimented in the game at all with petetiions and such.
>>an open pvp game needs to provide ample punishment , massive penalty's for unlawfull kills<<
How is it an open pvp game, then, if you can't pvp in it without being banned for a week? How do you differentiate between "lawful" and "unlawful"? If pvp is "lawful" only in some area, how exactly is it different from instanced pvp?
Your idea of what is "lawful" or "unlawful", or the possibilities of a "consequence" system seems a bit limited. Not an insult, just an observation based on your statement.
In Lineage 2, you can attack anyone, anytime, almost anywhere (except inside cities and major towns). There's nothing stopping you.
The penalty for attacking and killing someone who wasn't an actual combattant (ie. someone sitting afk, or was trying to escape, etc), makes you a "murderer" or "chaotic". Once you have murderer status, you are considered a criminal and are penalized with a number of restrictions and penalties until you either work off the penalty or enough time goes by that it dissipates on its own (a sort of statute of limitations, if you will).
What is being discussed is the idea of consequences for your actions... not limitations on them.You're free to attack anyone you want... but you're much more likely to weigh whether the act is worth the consequences.
That's the point of having a PvP system with consequences like that. It's one of the only things that keep it from becoming a pointless gank-fest.
In L2 it has certainly worked for the most part. People are much more thoughtful of who they attack in L2 than they would be in a MMO like WoW where there's no real penalty for killing an opposing player. For example, I was ganked fewer times in 4+ years playing L2 than I was inside a single week on a PvP server in WoW. I'm not exaggerating. Of course, the times I was ganked in L2 were mostly for very specific reasons (enemy player, competition for a hunting area, revenge, etc). In WoW, most of the PKs were at the hands of a much higher level player doing it for yuks, simply because they could get away with it.
'course, on a partially related note, what also contributes to that in L2 is that it's a truly open player-driven political system and there are consequences for PK'ing that are not part of the game's design but determined by the players themselves.
A player you attack and PK, especialy unprovoked, may be on an alt of a character that's in a major clan. Or, they may have friends in a powerful clan/alliance. By killing them, you could have just brought a world of pain on yourself... 'cause now you've just landed yourself on the KoS list of that guy and his friends. Congratulations, you've just earned yourself a bright read bull's eye which will be stuck to your back everywhere you go until such a time that revenge is taken, or they decide to let it go. So that's another potential consequence of it that has to be measured, at least as it works in L2. I haven't seen that level of comraderie in many other PvP MMOs, where people will come to the aid of an ally or friend like that. In other MMOs I've played, it's usually "So what if you were PK'd? It's a PvP MMO. Deal with it".
Also, what stops me from power-leveling, say, 10 characters to a relatively small level and then just switching them? So I've killed 10 pve players, got my character into jail for two weeks... tomorrow I take another char and kill those same 10 with him. That'll learn them.
Nothing. In fact there are people who do that. In L2 some players keep characters used solely for PK'ing others; they refer to them as "perma-reds".
However, the point is, you still aren't able to play that other character. And if the one you're jailed on just happens to be your "main" or the one you are focusing most on at that moment... then it's definitely a meaningful penalty. It would certainly make you think twice about PK'ing someone on that character, wouldn't it? Assuming it would, then the system has served its purpose.
One character per account? That would inconvenience everyone else. So I'm griefing everyone - EVERYONE - without even loggin in! Yay me!
Not necessarily. Depends on how the game is setup and how much can be done on that one character. In FFXI you could train all jobs on one character and then switch between them as you saw fit. Your actions as a player also tended to follow you.. if you were a jerk, people figured it out and eventually it would come back to bite you in the ass.
In L2, again, because of the game's steeeeep progression curve - especially early on - people would tend to stick to 1, maybe 2 main characters. Most of their activities, including PvP, took place on those characters. And, so, people came to know them as those characters and their reputation on the server was built around their actions on those characters, for better or worse.
Again... consequences.
See? "Harsh penalties"? Bah. Griefers will find their way around them.
If the game is set up well, Griefers "finding their way" around the rules will not save them. They can circumvent the game's rules, perhaps... but they can't circumvent the consequences for those actions... especially not where other players are concerned.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
yeah we PVE players destroy MMOs like WaR and AOC,oh wait the one said we have only PVP and was a flop and the other decided to go more PVE and made more money
Oh and one more thing PVErs DONT ARGUE about PVP in forums PVPers do.If anything PVPers destroy PVErs games because the cant handle the diference in classes and whine all the time(Of course PVErs whine too,but the scale is more in favor of PVPers)
Anyway PVP in themepark games is meaningless so who cares.
yeah we PVE players destroy MMOs like WaR and AOC,oh wait the one said we have only PVP and was a flop and the other decided to go more PVE and made more money
Oh and one more thing PVErs DONT ARGUE about PVP in forums PVPers do.If anything PVPers destroy PVErs games because the cant handle the diference in classes and whine all the time(Of course PVErs whine too,but the scale is more in favor of PVPers)
Anyway PVP in themepark games is meaningless so who cares.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
In more sandbox style games, one which tend to typically have open world pvp in which newb killing can occur. There is not alot really stoping players from doing this, nothing is stopping white knights trying to protect "the innocent" and nothing is stopping players putting bounties on others (screenshot of death with time stamp chat log).
The trouble is people in general would rather not go to the effort and just cry about it instead, trying to get restrictions placed as opposed to actually doing something about it themselves. That is being said in general, not aiming it at you btw.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
yeah we PVE players destroy MMOs like WaR and AOC,oh wait the one said we have only PVP and was a flop and the other decided to go more PVE and made more money
Are you implying that WAR was a flop because it was a PvP game? Have you actually played WAR, and found no other faults to the game except for the fact it was a PvP game?
See, I would argue that the only reason why WAR did not vanish into a black hole of nothingness after 3 months and people kept coming back to it is precisely because it was a PvP game (RvR in fact). Translation: WAR was really bad but RvR lovers don't have anything else on offer, so keep coming back even though it is buggy/bad.
Same for "Age of 'PvE' Conan", except it is not even a PvP/RvR game.
Oh and one more thing PVErs DONT ARGUE about PVP in forums PVPers do.
So I take your a PvP player then, welcome friend!
Anyway PVP in themepark games is meaningless so who cares.
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
Yep...
Truth is everyone agrees ganking is a problem/annoying/bad/useless (PvP and PvE players), and there are 1 million ways to prevent ganking from happening outside of the default solution "PvE only" and other server "PvP only". This would be one.
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
In more sandbox style games, one which tend to typically have open world pvp in which newb killing can occur. There is not alot really stoping players from doing this, nothing is stopping white knights trying to protect "the innocent" and nothing is stopping players putting bounties on others (screenshot of death with time stamp chat log).
The trouble is people in general would rather not go to the effort and just cry about it instead, trying to get restrictions placed as opposed to actually doing something about it themselves. That is being said in general, not aiming it at you btw.
Oh i knwo far too well abotu the bounty system of sceenshots and such that are around nnow, yet also i have seen as well as heard that it is not always well done wiht the person helping or killing the ganker getting ripped off by the ganked. Yet this system would ensure that the people helping by killing the ganker would get what they wanted and would be easy to find on the wall of a tavern or such, and if you added in a weeekly or daily bounty generated by the server you could have interesting times. Yeah i have seen that as well with wanting more and more rules and walls to stop the offense, although like anythign as a pvper i would rather find a player based solution ingame that would hep then limit the abbility to pvp. I have been one of those that actually post searching for ganked people that want to get revenge for the act so i can just pvp knwoing i would do it free.
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
Yep...
Truth is everyone agrees ganking is a problem/annoying/bad/useless (PvP and PvE players), and there are 1 million ways to prevent ganking from happening outside of the default solution "PvE only" and other server "PvP only". This would be one.
Saddly outsidde of banning ganker and griefer you can not elimanate eiter becase people enjoy doing it for. YOu would just need to find ways to make it problematic and an issue. IT would be interesting if you also had a feature that if you ganked a low level person in mgame that your characetr would not log out and actually leave you as a sitting duck for pvp and pve content player.
Personally, I dislike free pvp. All it is tends to be a grief fest. Having 'instanced' pvp is what makes things competative. That being said, world pvp isn't all bad at all and its bad that it isn't involved more, making dyamic events regarding it.
Simply put, I feel PvP players tend to destroy PvP servers more then PvE players. When theres little to no consequence and pvp is free world, its just allowing for people to just grief and annoy people. Lets not pretend theres an ounce of 'skill' in attacking someone at a large disadvantage, whether in combat/lowlife/ and the most common thing, lower level/geared. It really makes the servers just so unfriendly to new players and pretty much lets general scum bag take control over a place since they have such a big edge over someone. In this regard, I think it really has turned a lot of people against open pvp and its likely why less world pvp 'events' of sorts are present.
World pvp can be fun and should not be neglected, but you need consequences. Its because of consequences we don't see people mass murdering eachother in the world. Having consequences that become steep make pvping less discouraged in terms of griefing. Sure I'm a pve player at heart, but I don't mind pvp. I'm just the type that believes more in 'honorable' or more 'fair' battles then having people just jump me that even if they had the iq of a pee could achieve a victory and then proceed to grief me out of some pathetic sense of 'forfillment'. I feel these people are a huge reason why people feel so bitter to world pvp and its becoming less and less 'desired for'. Sorry to say, but your own people are killing the brand. Sure we can contribute it to the lack of consequences, but the fact they find it fun to beat on players who realy stand no chance for the sake of 'entertainment' is just pitiful.
Give PvP with consequences and I have a feeling a lot less people would be so against it and developers could feel more inclined to have pvp 'world' focused and make content revolving around it more.
I do not have to read this thread any farther then this post! This reply epitomizes exactly what is happening to open world PvP! I love both PvP and PvE! Hardcore PvP'rs that get there epeens from ganking someone 10 levels lower then them, and can't figure out why no one wants to open world PvP? It's not game companies or softcore PvP'rs that are killing this type of stuff! It is "you" the hardcore ganktards that are destroying PvP!
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
Yep...
Truth is everyone agrees ganking is a problem/annoying/bad/useless (PvP and PvE players), and there are 1 million ways to prevent ganking from happening outside of the default solution "PvE only" and other server "PvP only". This would be one.
Saddly outsidde of banning ganker and griefer you can not elimanate eiter becase people enjoy doing it for. YOu would just need to find ways to make it problematic and an issue. IT would be interesting if you also had a feature that if you ganked a low level person in mgame that your characetr would not log out and actually leave you as a sitting duck for pvp and pve content player.
Well you can reduce their stats/lvl to the level of the person they ganked (plus anyone who helped them) or eliminate levels altogether.
In WAR PvE servers, gankers were turned into chickens (with 1hp and no attacks) so I don't think many people were ganking much in this game. So really, just create rules that prevent gankers from doing any repeted harm.
Game designers are paid to think about these kind of things, I am sure they can come up with something nice and inventive rather than being lazy "aces".
Here is what's 'killing' World PvP: The teensy, tiny number of people who want games with that kind of focus. There are literally not enough of those people to make a difference. Every other form of PvP is more popular - Battlegrounds, RvR, PvP zones in PvE worlds, etc. All more popular than PvP focused Worlds.
Everything else is just a result of that. Not enough investment for development? Teensy, tiny audience. Only left field developers who have no experience will do it? Teensy, tiny audience. Only one company managed to actually get a game to be self sustaining after twelve years? Teensy, tiny audience.
Since someone might mention Eve - Eve has the largest FFA PvP/World PvP audience...but most of their players do not run around in the low security space. I bet there are more people on Rift's PvP servers than there are running around in Eve's low security space. WoW's current active Battleground population (just the people who are in battlegrounds actively fighting right now) probably exceeds Eve's entire population.
Teensy, tiny population actually want a world PvP focused game. That's it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So, in a nutshell, PvE Players are winning the other type of PvP ( PvE players vs PvP players ) ?
Awesome!
*grin*
Probably not winning at the battle of diversity and innovation in the end, though.
It's fine for a while until you realise there is more to life than PvE...
It is just survival of the fittest. Whichever the majority gamers are favor of will always be the one being developed. If at the end, the majority of gamers want PvP, someone will make a game for it. If not, PvP type will just die off. There is more to life than PvP as well
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
Yep...
Truth is everyone agrees ganking is a problem/annoying/bad/useless (PvP and PvE players), and there are 1 million ways to prevent ganking from happening outside of the default solution "PvE only" and other server "PvP only". This would be one.
Saddly outsidde of banning ganker and griefer you can not elimanate eiter becase people enjoy doing it for. YOu would just need to find ways to make it problematic and an issue. IT would be interesting if you also had a feature that if you ganked a low level person in mgame that your characetr would not log out and actually leave you as a sitting duck for pvp and pve content player.
Well you can reduce their stats/lvl to the level of the person they ganked (plus anyone who helped them) or eliminate levels altogether.
In WAR PvE servers, gankers were turned into chickens (with 1hp and no attacks) so I don't think many people were ganking much in this game. So really, just create rules that prevent gankers from doing any repeted harm.
Game designers are paid to think about these kind of things, I am sure they can come up with something nice and inventive rather than being lazy "aces".
I personally did not the act of god kind of restriction and penalty since it both broke immersion (which i do iek sometimes.), yet also never was gratifing to me as a pvper since you could have alot of things that would make better sense. Weaken the character would be great when it is used yet it is less of an issue for the ganker since you kill them once and they do not really care that much since they wll do t again.
I do not have to read this thread any farther then this post! This reply epitomizes exactly what is happening to open world PvP! I love both PvP and PvE! Hardcore PvP'rs that get there epeens from ganking someone 10 levels lower then them, and can't figure out why no one wants to open world PvP? It's not game companies or softcore PvP'rs that are killing this type of stuff! It is "you" the hardcore ganktards that are destroying PvP!
People (who don't actually play open world pvp games but like to moan about them) say that alot, the trouble is it has little actually basis in truth.
The actual amount of time you spend being ganked by higher level/skill characters is low in relation to time spent in game unless you are A) exceptionally unlucky, doing something incredibly stupid or C) making it all up.
MMORPG games which do have a stringent progression system in them (which is most) do indeed need some form of mechanic in place which prevents people simply camping newb starter areas 24/7 and I am all for that. But I constantly see people on these boards talking about open world gank fests as though it is nigh on impossible for people to survive and play at all without having some rabid nutter beating on them all the time, and even in the least newb friendly games like Darkfall that simply is not the case.
It does sometimes come across as some say "oh I'd play open world pvp games as long as no one can actually kill me unless I want them to or they are no more powerful than me". That approach to pvp is fine, but it is not at all open world and so seems like something of a daft stance to take on the subject.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
Well Full Loot PvP games the items you lose are easily replaced; and you never went hunting with a flaming sword or blue diamond armor as you were just a bullseye for some PK. That's always or should be in the back of your mind on what to take, at how you will most likely lose it from some person that takes you by surprise.
Darkfall items you never grew attached to them because they will eith break through use or stolen by death; so flashy items were reserved for showing off in town unless you had multiples, or were skilled enough where you didn't think some pk(s) would take you out.
The majority of gankers or spawn campers who do the things you said are the immature players and kids. They either don't have the skill to face you one on one so they do their best to take you by surprise or just are the type of person that enjoys giving misery to others.
In Darkfall I've seen a friend take on two would be pkers at once and win, so skill is your friend in open world pvp, as he said "If you can't take Open PvP then get the *bleep* out of my game and go play WoW".
See this was the beauty of L2 PVP system back in the day, you couldnt just power level 10 characters to a certain level without other ppl already being at a level where they will own you, equipment also doesnt drop of every other rat, while it was harsh it meant ppl worked for it, if you were in a position to level another character for PVP you are already in a really powerful clan and didnt need to. Sure there will always be grifers that is a fact, but the thing is they will be mitigated by everyone playing by the rules, a griefer in L2 wouldnt last long, you would eventually piss of the wrong clan, and ppl would just take your stuff when you died.
Contrary to popular belief the more powerful clans didnt really care about getting into fights with the average joe playing the game, any game that wants to be series about open world pvp needs to have a really good clan system to encourage ppl to band together and fight for something, with the problem being when ppl think free for all pvp they thinki "how can this fit into wow with 100 random joes running around bad mouthing everyone and not caring about anything or anyone".
Since the thread has drifted somewhat from the OP......
Your 2nd reason, Incentive is the root cause of the first problem really. On PVP servers such as WOW has, the incentive is to reward players far more for the instanced combat vs the open world.
Make it so that open world PVP is more rewarding and more people will do it.
But if you don't put controls in place to prevent the server from becoming a total gank fest no one will play.
Look to the low populations on DAOC's original FFA PVP servers if you want to see a good example. (even though I enjoyed playing there despite being a PVE carebear at heart)
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IPY 2 the Ultima Online Server I liked how they dealt with PK's in their Open Loot world, they added 2 professions that you earned your way to becoming. Detective and Paladin -
Detective - you had a book and you would use Forensic Evaulation on a body you found, if the person died from a PK and reported them for murder then your detective would get a "clue" like a dagger or blood. You would need threeof these clues from people killed by that pk to point the blame at the character, you would turn in the clues to a GM detective and he would spawn 3 Mercenary NPCS near the pk who will attempt to kill him/her. When/If they kill the target the Detective is rewarded with w hatever items the PK had on him at the time and the PK is sent to Jail in Yew, (with a whole other system for the PK to get himself out of jail depending on murder counts)
Paladins - You can not become one if you have a murder count on any character in your account. Never tried one but it's just another PK stalker profession with maybe some ability or reward for stopping PK's.
again, no
PvP is player vs player. simple as that. it engulfs every single aspect of this interaction.
ganking is PvP, zerging is PvP, battlegrounds is PvP, world RvR is PvP. PvP is inherently a game mode that will be fair in 5% of the cases, and tremendously unfair one way or the other in the rest. a PvPer will enjoy themall because, well....he enjoys the very same idea of human vs human confrontation.
You may favour some over the other , but If you cant and let me remark, CANT stand one of them and you are gonna cry like a little girl, you are not a real PvPer, you just happen to like a small sub-set of what PvP stands for.
And the problem comes when people diss out those who will gladly embrace PvP in all its forms, and try (and worse, succeed) at forcing devs to implement games that purposedly filter out some of the PvP interactions, because those are too reckless and cuttroathing for their faltering hearts.
real PvPers lose, wannabe PvPers win.
Two tyrants of PvP servers are kids who nerdrage on forums because they can't wtfpwnz0r everyone like they did before in CS and housewifes who had no idea what server they've picked when they made a char and now fish in warfronts.
A pvper is a player that enjoy pvpng period weither you dislike or otherwise disapprove of how another pvper plays has no effect on weither you are a pvper, it is the same for a pver that likes instances but hates questing and raiding. By you standard that pver is not a pver because they like one or afew of the thigns that make up pve content. Also you sound like onee of those whining girls because you hate to be grouped up with peopel that prefer one play or another. I have played from uo to now. And your last statement is laughable since peopel that wnat to feel better then others and degrade them based on their chosen form of enterianment are why people stire clear of pvp centric games. It is not the ffam or open word, or open loot that ruins it, it is the fact that someoen has to somehow validate their choice and ability as being better. Aso what you or i think a pvper is matters abotu as much as dirt sicne ones opinion (atleast to me) is important only if they are important, to a company if you pvp in any form you are a pvper same with pveers. The personal belief is worth to the company and devs.
LLet me add that your last comment shows why pvp has gone the way it has. A true pvper would fight to keep what they enjoy in game not roll over, but pvper rarely fight the changes that take away the type of play they want. I have sen it too much in forums as well as in game, yet they also whine when they do not get games that have their style in it, but never try and get it implimented in the game at all with petetiions and such.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
yeah we PVE players destroy MMOs like WaR and AOC,oh wait the one said we have only PVP and was a flop and the other decided to go more PVE and made more money
Oh and one more thing PVErs DONT ARGUE about PVP in forums PVPers do.If anything PVPers destroy PVErs games because the cant handle the diference in classes and whine all the time(Of course PVErs whine too,but the scale is more in favor of PVPers)
Anyway PVP in themepark games is meaningless so who cares.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
One of the things i always wanted to see was a warrent system that you could use to set bounties on a player that killed you (in pvp) that other players could collect by killing the player bringing back a token from the body, yet it would only work for the first kill on him for the turn in but would not tell you it was turned in if you had the quest/bounty when he got killed by another person. YOu would have a way for people thaat got ganked or griefed to get payback as well as a way for those "white knight" type of pvpers to coem to the rescue of the pvper/pver that got ganked by a pvper that wasmuch higher geared. The bounty woould be based on their gear as wel as being aable to be increased from a base amount that is based on their gear, also it could give you increased pvp points as well.
In more sandbox style games, one which tend to typically have open world pvp in which newb killing can occur. There is not alot really stoping players from doing this, nothing is stopping white knights trying to protect "the innocent" and nothing is stopping players putting bounties on others (screenshot of death with time stamp chat log).
The trouble is people in general would rather not go to the effort and just cry about it instead, trying to get restrictions placed as opposed to actually doing something about it themselves. That is being said in general, not aiming it at you btw.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Are you implying that WAR was a flop because it was a PvP game? Have you actually played WAR, and found no other faults to the game except for the fact it was a PvP game?
See, I would argue that the only reason why WAR did not vanish into a black hole of nothingness after 3 months and people kept coming back to it is precisely because it was a PvP game (RvR in fact). Translation: WAR was really bad but RvR lovers don't have anything else on offer, so keep coming back even though it is buggy/bad.
Same for "Age of 'PvE' Conan", except it is not even a PvP/RvR game.
So I take your a PvP player then, welcome friend!
True, unfortunately.
Yep...
Truth is everyone agrees ganking is a problem/annoying/bad/useless (PvP and PvE players), and there are 1 million ways to prevent ganking from happening outside of the default solution "PvE only" and other server "PvP only". This would be one.
Oh i knwo far too well abotu the bounty system of sceenshots and such that are around nnow, yet also i have seen as well as heard that it is not always well done wiht the person helping or killing the ganker getting ripped off by the ganked. Yet this system would ensure that the people helping by killing the ganker would get what they wanted and would be easy to find on the wall of a tavern or such, and if you added in a weeekly or daily bounty generated by the server you could have interesting times. Yeah i have seen that as well with wanting more and more rules and walls to stop the offense, although like anythign as a pvper i would rather find a player based solution ingame that would hep then limit the abbility to pvp. I have been one of those that actually post searching for ganked people that want to get revenge for the act so i can just pvp knwoing i would do it free.
Saddly outsidde of banning ganker and griefer you can not elimanate eiter becase people enjoy doing it for. YOu would just need to find ways to make it problematic and an issue. IT would be interesting if you also had a feature that if you ganked a low level person in mgame that your characetr would not log out and actually leave you as a sitting duck for pvp and pve content player.
I do not have to read this thread any farther then this post! This reply epitomizes exactly what is happening to open world PvP! I love both PvP and PvE! Hardcore PvP'rs that get there epeens from ganking someone 10 levels lower then them, and can't figure out why no one wants to open world PvP? It's not game companies or softcore PvP'rs that are killing this type of stuff! It is "you" the hardcore ganktards that are destroying PvP!
So, in a nutshell, PvE Players are winning the other type of PvP ( PvE players vs PvP players ) ?
Awesome!
*grin*
Well you can reduce their stats/lvl to the level of the person they ganked (plus anyone who helped them) or eliminate levels altogether.
In WAR PvE servers, gankers were turned into chickens (with 1hp and no attacks) so I don't think many people were ganking much in this game. So really, just create rules that prevent gankers from doing any repeted harm.
Game designers are paid to think about these kind of things, I am sure they can come up with something nice and inventive rather than being lazy "aces".
Probably not winning at the battle of diversity and innovation in the end, though.
It's fine for a while until you realise there is more to life than PvE...
Here is what's 'killing' World PvP:
The teensy, tiny number of people who want games with that kind of focus. There are literally not enough of those people to make a difference. Every other form of PvP is more popular - Battlegrounds, RvR, PvP zones in PvE worlds, etc. All more popular than PvP focused Worlds.
Everything else is just a result of that. Not enough investment for development? Teensy, tiny audience. Only left field developers who have no experience will do it? Teensy, tiny audience. Only one company managed to actually get a game to be self sustaining after twelve years? Teensy, tiny audience.
Since someone might mention Eve - Eve has the largest FFA PvP/World PvP audience...but most of their players do not run around in the low security space. I bet there are more people on Rift's PvP servers than there are running around in Eve's low security space. WoW's current active Battleground population (just the people who are in battlegrounds actively fighting right now) probably exceeds Eve's entire population.
Teensy, tiny population actually want a world PvP focused game. That's it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It is just survival of the fittest. Whichever the majority gamers are favor of will always be the one being developed. If at the end, the majority of gamers want PvP, someone will make a game for it. If not, PvP type will just die off. There is more to life than PvP as well
I personally did not the act of god kind of restriction and penalty since it both broke immersion (which i do iek sometimes.), yet also never was gratifing to me as a pvper since you could have alot of things that would make better sense. Weaken the character would be great when it is used yet it is less of an issue for the ganker since you kill them once and they do not really care that much since they wll do t again.
People (who don't actually play open world pvp games but like to moan about them) say that alot, the trouble is it has little actually basis in truth.
The actual amount of time you spend being ganked by higher level/skill characters is low in relation to time spent in game unless you are A) exceptionally unlucky,
doing something incredibly stupid or C) making it all up.
MMORPG games which do have a stringent progression system in them (which is most) do indeed need some form of mechanic in place which prevents people simply camping newb starter areas 24/7 and I am all for that. But I constantly see people on these boards talking about open world gank fests as though it is nigh on impossible for people to survive and play at all without having some rabid nutter beating on them all the time, and even in the least newb friendly games like Darkfall that simply is not the case.
It does sometimes come across as some say "oh I'd play open world pvp games as long as no one can actually kill me unless I want them to or they are no more powerful than me". That approach to pvp is fine, but it is not at all open world and so seems like something of a daft stance to take on the subject.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."