The problem with this is in regards to the pure lack of innovation. It's much easier for devs to create these embarrassing 8v8 mini-zones. This isn't massively multiplayer; it's unreal tournament, quake, and counter-strike.
They need harsh rules, e.g., killing lowbies will turn your character red for 48 hours. In this time, you will drop all of your gear if killed. The "red status" doesn't go away until 48 hours later.
They can do so much. The possibilities are endless. Yet, all we get is this rehashed instanced trash. It's just not fun anymore. It's one of the major elements as to why games continue to fail. Been there, done that. No again.
Your problem lies in asking for it in a game that has both PvE servers and PvP servers, what you need is a game that is strictly PvP and then you can apply these rules because the game has been designed for a PvP crowd and it is so designed from groud up. Instead you are grousing about a game which is basically a PvE game that has PvP servers and rules made for that server as not being the way you want it but that would make sense for the developers because they are catering for a game that is basically PvE hence they expect the lighter PvP focus.
You actually complaining about the wrong thing. You qualification of the PvE being soft core PvP is also not very sensible.
Two tyrants are destroying the PvP Servers: PvE Players and Incentive.
PvE Players: You guys and your damn yearning for "safe" PvP. Your cries have been answered. The result? Instanced and optional PvP mini-games, e.g., 8v8 team death-match, capture the flag, control points, take the hill, hutt-ball, and kick the can. I normally wouldn't mind, as PvE'rs should have a choice. HOWEVER, your bs axioms have spread to my PvP Servers. Innovation is lost; Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones now reside as the dominant form of PvP on both server types.
Incentive: Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones are limited. Normally, there are about 5-6 different instances that are solely dedicated to structured PvP. This becomes mind-numbingly redundant. Strategies are learned by all within 1 month. The match becomes a rinse and repeat type thing... over and over and over and over again. There is nothing "massive" about it.
So why do people do it on the PvP Servers? The PvP GEAR. The devs simply toss in a few cool looking duds, place an insanely high kill-point price, and watch the masses conform to the simple rules of kindergarten PvP.
THE FIX?
Either remove Instanced PvP from PvP Servers OR remove incentive from the Instanced PvP Games via PvP Server.
Why people play for 10 years CS on same maps is also beyond me and this is same for those who play for years battlegrounds or arena unbelievble but this seems millions who like this boring repeating pvp.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
The problem with this is in regards to the pure lack of innovation. It's much easier for devs to create these embarrassing 8v8 mini-zones. This isn't massively multiplayer; it's unreal tournament, quake, and counter-strike.
They need harsh rules, e.g., killing lowbies will turn your character red for 48 hours. In this time, you will drop all of your gear if killed. The "red status" doesn't go away until 48 hours later.
They can do so much. The possibilities are endless. Yet, all we get is this rehashed instanced trash. It's just not fun anymore. It's one of the major elements as to why games continue to fail. Been there, done that. No again.
Your problem lies in asking for it in a game that has both PvE servers and PvP servers, what you need is a game that is strictly PvP and then you can apply these rules because the game has been designed for a PvP crowd and it is so designed from groud up. Instead you are grousing about a game which is basically a PvE game that has PvP servers and rules made for that server as not being the way you want it but that would make sense for the developers because they are catering for a game that is basically PvE hence they expect the lighter PvP focus.
You actually complaining about the wrong thing. You qualification of the PvE being soft core PvP is also not very sensible.
Why i understand OP perfectly and what he means and you pve themeparkers have absolutely no clue what OP is trying to say here?
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
OP. The only thing destroying PVP is PVPers. Actually an argument could be made that PVPers are destroying MMORPGs in general. But thats a discussion for another time. I'm sure you have someone to grief.
OP. The only thing destroying PVP is PVPers. Actually an argument could be made that PVPers are destroying MMORPGs in general. But thats a discussion for another time. I'm sure you have someone to grief.
I will also make the rather abstract statement that PVP'ers destroy MMO's, infact gonna start a post on it.
Two tyrants are destroying the PvP Servers: PvE Players and Incentive
PvE Players: You guys and your damn yearning for "safe" PvP.
/shrug... optional PvP is the preference of the majority. That's just the reality and ranting on forums won't change it.
People want optional PvP for a reason... because they don't want to spend their leisure time being farmed by nb mvcmvfgjfgj being farmed by gankers with low self esteem issues 20 levels or whatever above them.
Why do optional PvPers want what they want? Because the hardcore have played with selfish abandon for years.The same hardcore that now moan about reaping the crop they themselves have planted.
Maybe if some of you 'hardcore' guys were more interested in building communities then destroying them more folks would play them and stick around and you would have more games to play, because the populations in the existing games/ servers would warrant them.
I believe all instanced PvP needs to die a painful death.
The repitition is so mind numbingly boring. I've tried it. I can't stand it.
As for open world PvP...
I miss the thrill of the hunt and, BEING hunted. Yes, I'm that rare bird that invites and ENJOYS being ganked.
That sort of constant danger keeps me on my toes and on high alert while exploring the landscape.
There really isn't any other feeling like it.
The best PvP experiences for me have always been those random, open world encounters, where you think you're going to do one task, only to find yourself fighting off a few enemies, and then that escaltes into an even bigger fight when you call in reinforcements.
No instanced battleground/scenario/warzone will ever be able to create those moments. Ever.
I honestly haven't a clue who to blame. The devs? The players for becoming soft? I don't know.
All I know is, there used to be a lot of people who enjoy (enjoyed) what I like in PvP. What happened to you guys?! Where are you!?
I believe all instanced PvP needs to die a painful death.
The repitition is so mind numbingly boring. I've tried it. I can't stand it.
As for open world PvP...
I miss the thrill of the hunt and, BEING hunted. Yes, I'm that rare bird that invites and ENJOYS being ganked.
That sort of constant danger keeps me on my toes and on high alert while exploring the landscape.
There really isn't any other feeling like it.
The best PvP experiences for me have always been those random, open world encounters, where you think you're going to do one task, only to find yourself fighting off a few enemies, and then that escaltes into an even bigger fight when you call in reinforcements.
No instanced battleground/scenario/warzone will ever be able to create those moments. Ever.
I honestly haven't a clue who to blame. The devs? The players for becoming soft? I don't know.
All I know is, there used to be a lot of people who enjoy (enjoyed) what I like in PvP. What happened to you guys?! Where are you!?
Pretty much exactly what I like in open world pvp. Both ganking and being ganked. Bookmark-jumping in trusty Iteron in Eve through 20 0-sec gates (that's before bubbles) pursued by a blob of local gankers with 100+ mils of cargo in my holds! Boy was that fun.
Now? Now I'm in online action games. TF2 for fun, but mostly World of Tanks. Whole process is fun, twitchy, tactical, clever - and you don't have to be an expert in mouse jiggling to win. Brains matter much more than hands. No persistent anything, but I enjoy the process itself immensely. AND I can play it 30 minutes a day, couple of times a week, because I don't have time to actually live in the mmorpg anymore. Anyway, mmorpg pvp, well, sucks, compared. Instanced battlegrounds - action games do it better, hands down.
Try WoT. You may like it or not, but it's free, it's impressively made, and it's fun all the time.
Should I be playing all the raging successful post-WoW MMOs? You know.. the innovative ones with Aernas and Warzones?
It can't hurt, can it? I mean, how can you regard yourself as a hardcore PvPer if you've never participated in a tournament with cash prizes?
Because in general mmorpg arenas are laughable at best? If someone is really interested in e-sport tournaments and cash prizes they tend to play games built for that, not progression based, gear heavy mmorpgs....
He could quite easily be a "hardcore mmorpg pvpers" without ever setting foot in a MOBA tournament.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by 8BitAvatar I believe all instanced PvP needs to die a painful death. The repitition is so mind numbingly boring. I've tried it. I can't stand it. As for open world PvP... I miss the thrill of the hunt and, BEING hunted. Yes, I'm that rare bird that invites and ENJOYS being ganked. That sort of constant danger keeps me on my toes and on high alert while exploring the landscape. There really isn't any other feeling like it. The best PvP experiences for me have always been those random, open world encounters, where you think you're going to do one task, only to find yourself fighting off a few enemies, and then that escaltes into an even bigger fight when you call in reinforcements. No instanced battleground/scenario/warzone will ever be able to create those moments. Ever. I honestly haven't a clue who to blame. The devs? The players for becoming soft? I don't know. All I know is, there used to be a lot of people who enjoy (enjoyed) what I like in PvP. What happened to you guys?! Where are you!?
There are probably the same number of people now as there were ten years ago. There's just many more people who would rather PvP be a choice while playing.
If you want open world PvP, play an open world PvP game. If you don't, don't play a game with open world PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My feelings exactly. I didn't like PvP in mmorpg's until I tried it in a game that had consequences for losing and a reason to fight besides some silly ladder standings.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Because in general mmorpg arenas are laughable at best? If someone is really interested in e-sport tournaments and cash prizes they tend to play games built for that, not progression based, gear heavy mmorpgs....
He could quite easily be a "hardcore mmorpg pvpers" without ever setting foot in a MOBA tournament.
I hear WoW had few e-sport tournaments. GW1 had many e-sport tournaments. GW2 will have e-sport tournaments. Just because most MMORPGs have had imbalanced PvP doesn't mean they all have to have imbalanced PvP. E-sport PvP is exactly what is new and innovative in the genre.
We all know the term "hardcore" refers to harsh death penalty in MMORPGs, but honestly the players are laughable compared to the hardcore gamers from genres with competitive PvP such as MOBAs, FPSs and RTSs etc. But I'm getting sidetracked - this is not about player skill. All I'm saying is that "a PvPer who does not enjoy competition" sounds rather odd.
I like PvP and I like it in every game I play. I just prefer instanced PvP. But not for incentives, ignorance or my "carebear-iness" etc. I just find it more challenging and more fun a lot more consistently. Simple as that. Something that the OP overlooks completely. Maybe PvP servers are dying simply because people prefer instanced PvP.
For those who are in the minority, this is the place to vent.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Whining about being killed "while only questiing :(" in a PVP server/based mmo in a gaming forum should perma ban you from any kind of pvp in any game past present and future. Simple as that.
Two tyrants are destroying the PvP Servers: PvE Players and Incentive.
PvE Players: You guys and your damn yearning for "safe" PvP. Your cries have been answered. The result? Instanced and optional PvP mini-games, e.g., 8v8 team death-match, capture the flag, control points, take the hill, hutt-ball, and kick the can. I normally wouldn't mind, as PvE'rs should have a choice. HOWEVER, your bs axioms have spread to my PvP Servers. Innovation is lost; Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones now reside as the dominant form of PvP on both server types.
Incentive: Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Warzones are limited. Normally, there are about 5-6 different instances that are solely dedicated to structured PvP. This becomes mind-numbingly redundant. Strategies are learned by all within 1 month. The match becomes a rinse and repeat type thing... over and over and over and over again. There is nothing "massive" about it.
So why do people do it on the PvP Servers? The PvP GEAR. The devs simply toss in a few cool looking duds, place an insanely high kill-point price, and watch the masses conform to the simple rules of kindergarten PvP.
THE FIX?
Either remove Instanced PvP from PvP Servers OR remove incentive from the Instanced PvP Games via PvP Server.
The overwhelming majority of PVPers want True Competition (which is not found in any world PVP game.)
Sports, RTSes, FPSes, MOBAs; the overwhelming majority of players who want competition want it in a fair way where you can look back on each match and say you're more or less skilled than the people you beat, based on the outcome. And if you lose, you could potentially beat them next time simply by playing more skillfully.
Does a tiny niche audience genuinely prefer "I brought more friends" style PVP? Sure. But to suggest the entire MMORPG PVP situation should bend its knee to a tiny minority is sorta ridiculous.
If players wanted that style of gameplay it would exist. It does exist. It exists in a capacity which reflects its popularity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The overwhelming majority of PVPers want True Competition (which is not found in any world PVP game.)
Sports, RTSes, FPSes, MOBAs; the overwhelming majority of players who want competition want it in a fair way where you can look back on each match and say you're more or less skilled than the people you beat, based on the outcome. And if you lose, you could potentially beat them next time simply by playing more skillfully.
Does a tiny niche audience genuinely prefer "I brought more friends" style PVP? Sure. But to suggest the entire MMORPG PVP situation should bend its knee to a tiny minority is sorta ridiculous.
If players wanted that style of gameplay it would exist. It does exist. It exists in a capacity which reflects its popularity.
non-instanced PvP, and especially FFA, full loot PvP, isn't just about winning fights, it's about the whole "virtual world" aspect of MMO gaming.
it's about going out into the world and not knowing what will happen.
it's about getting a group of friends together and go to a dungeon, only to find some other people there - not knowing if they'll attack you, join you, or flee for their lives.
it's about winning unexpected fights against all odds, getting away from murderers by playing it smart, and managing to get even once in a while.
it's about ambushes, sieges and battles that actually affect the world.
in other words: non-instanced, FFA PvP is about risk vs reward and real challenge, and about players using their brains because they actually have something to lose.
instanced PvP on the other hand is about farming e-peen points, gear and titles in small, static areas that does not affect the game world in any significant way.
it's about safe and mechanical gameplay without any real commitment or creativity.
it caters to a dumbed-down style of gaming, built upon the philosophy of instant gratification and and the demands of the "fast and easy"-generation.
that it 's the most popular form of PvP today does not mean that it's better in any way, just that today's AAA games are very good at exploiting the army of sheep-like consumer drones that make up 75% of contemporary MMO culture.
also, there is quite a huge niche audience for non-instanced, FFA PvP. sure, most recent games that have tried it have failed - but they didn't fail because they were FFA PvP, they failed because they were bad games.
ofc, neither DFO, MO, Earthrise, nor any other FFA title could ever compete with WoW or SWTOR. But given the interest shown for those games initially, it's clear that quite a lot of people do enjoy the risk vs. reward environment.
PvP games are made for PvP, thus they cannot seperate them into separate servers. PvP severs in the current games are ONLY for griefers.... that's why people think that open/FFA PvP games are all about griefing.
Good PvP games prevent rampant griefing (you'll get some, but usually the community in these games will....stop them). It's been done in the past very easilly. I was never griefed playing L1 (alignment penalties), L2 (alignment penalties), SWG (big realistic virtual world), but I have been griefed in AoC...some F2P games...
I wasn't even griefed in DF.... killed yes... harrrassed? no...
Alot of people who get griefed probably keep running back towards the guy who merely killed them--> Take another route in other words. If there are no other routes, the game's poorly made and shouldn't have open pvp.
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by precious328
The overwhelming majority of PVPers want True Competition (which is not found in any world PVP game.) Sports, RTSes, FPSes, MOBAs; the overwhelming majority of players who want competition want it in a fair way where you can look back on each match and say you're more or less skilled than the people you beat, based on the outcome. And if you lose, you could potentially beat them next time simply by playing more skillfully. Does a tiny niche audience genuinely prefer "I brought more friends" style PVP? Sure. But to suggest the entire MMORPG PVP situation should bend its knee to a tiny minority is sorta ridiculous. If players wanted that style of gameplay it would exist. It does exist. It exists in a capacity which reflects its popularity.
He's not saying that. He's saying that PvP servers are useless. You already have your "TOURNAMENT STYLE/ COMPETATIVE PVP" on PvE servers. These games with PvP servers just turn on flagging for everyone. It doesn't actually make there a reason to PvP.
When he says "real PvPers". He means PvP that includes a reason, a risk, and a reward. The games you mentioned are pretty much just about fun. The PvP he wants has more depth. The PvP on console games is pretty shallow compared to open-pvp. You need to use your brain a lot more in those games because you can outnumber people and you can be outnumbered, just grabbing all of your friends doesn't work in good PvP games. I've seen good PvP games where the player is outnumbered, yet still destroys the opposing side. A good PvP game can be as tactical as the shallow "tourney style" battles or it can be as tactical as a full out war. "Real PvPers" want this vast amount of depth.
If you've never experienced this depth, you haven't played a good PvP game.
The overwhelming majority of PVPers want True Competition (which is not found in any world PVP game.)
Sports, RTSes, FPSes, MOBAs; the overwhelming majority of players who want competition want it in a fair way where you can look back on each match and say you're more or less skilled than the people you beat, based on the outcome. And if you lose, you could potentially beat them next time simply by playing more skillfully.
Does a tiny niche audience genuinely prefer "I brought more friends" style PVP? Sure. But to suggest the entire MMORPG PVP situation should bend its knee to a tiny minority is sorta ridiculous.
If players wanted that style of gameplay it would exist. It does exist. It exists in a capacity which reflects its popularity.
non-instanced PvP, and especially FFA, full loot PvP, isn't just about winning fights, it's about the whole "virtual world" aspect of MMO gaming.
it's about going out into the world and not knowing what will happen.
it's about getting a group of friends together and go to a dungeon, only to find some other people there - not knowing if they'll attack you, join you, or flee for their lives.
it's about winning unexpected fights against all odds, getting away from murderers by playing it smart, and managing to get even once in a while.
it's about ambushes, sieges and battles that actually affect the world.
in other words: non-instanced, FFA PvP is about risk vs reward and real challenge, and about players using their brains because they actually have something to lose.
instanced PvP on the other hand is about farming e-peen points, gear and titles in small, static areas that does not affect the game world in any significant way.
it's about safe and mechanical gameplay without any real commitment or creativity.
it caters to a dumbed-down style of gaming, built upon the philosophy of instant gratification and and the demands of the "fast and easy"-generation.
that it 's the most popular form of PvP today does not mean that it's better in any way, just that today's AAA games are very good at exploiting the army of sheep-like consumer drones that make up 75% of contemporary MMO culture.
also, there is quite a huge niche audience for non-instanced, FFA PvP. sure, most recent games that have tried it have failed - but they didn't fail because they were FFA PvP, they failed because they were bad games.
ofc, neither DFO, MO, Earthrise, nor any other FFA title could ever compete with WoW or SWTOR. But given the interest shown for those games initially, it's clear that quite a lot of people do enjoy the risk vs. reward environment.
Epeen or gear or titles are not the central focus. Competition is. Making the right decision (strategy/tactics) and executing it (twitch.)
It's about mechanical gameplay -- which is to say it's about gameplay. Nothing is "safe" about a game purely decision by player skill and teamwork though -- make bad decisions, you lose; make good ones, you win.
"Safe" would be a game where you can amass a fortune, buy an advantage, bring more friends, and win PVP without risk. The fights are lopsided and dull in such games, which is the primary reason they're unpopular. No amount of rationalizing your own opinion to others is gonna change the fact that most people don't want that kind of gameplay.
I'd argue that "most recent games that have tried it have failed" is a pretty obvious indicator that there isn't a "huge" niche audience for it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Your problem lies in asking for it in a game that has both PvE servers and PvP servers, what you need is a game that is strictly PvP and then you can apply these rules because the game has been designed for a PvP crowd and it is so designed from groud up. Instead you are grousing about a game which is basically a PvE game that has PvP servers and rules made for that server as not being the way you want it but that would make sense for the developers because they are catering for a game that is basically PvE hence they expect the lighter PvP focus.
You actually complaining about the wrong thing. You qualification of the PvE being soft core PvP is also not very sensible.
You forgot one fine detail... There can't be any risk without reward or else it's stupid. This, of course, I'm referring to Open World PvP.
Why people play for 10 years CS on same maps is also beyond me and this is same for those who play for years battlegrounds or arena unbelievble but this seems millions who like this boring repeating pvp.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Why i understand OP perfectly and what he means and you pve themeparkers have absolutely no clue what OP is trying to say here?
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
@ OP
That's the greatest sig I've seen in quite some time! Literally made me laugh-out-loud.
Okay, now I'll go back and actually read the rest of this thread...
OP. The only thing destroying PVP is PVPers. Actually an argument could be made that PVPers are destroying MMORPGs in general. But thats a discussion for another time. I'm sure you have someone to grief.
Which game is this about?
I will also make the rather abstract statement that PVP'ers destroy MMO's, infact gonna start a post on it.
/shrug... optional PvP is the preference of the majority. That's just the reality and ranting on forums won't change it.
People want optional PvP for a reason... because they don't want to spend their leisure time being farmed by nb mvcmvfgjfgj being farmed by gankers with low self esteem issues 20 levels or whatever above them.
Why do optional PvPers want what they want? Because the hardcore have played with selfish abandon for years.The same hardcore that now moan about reaping the crop they themselves have planted.
Maybe if some of you 'hardcore' guys were more interested in building communities then destroying them more folks would play them and stick around and you would have more games to play, because the populations in the existing games/ servers would warrant them.
Reward yes , same as risk. You gain what other player loses.
But being coward. And ganking. Makes you outlaw.
Which is just more risk.
So if you are truly hardcore, you will welcome it.
I believe all instanced PvP needs to die a painful death.
The repitition is so mind numbingly boring. I've tried it. I can't stand it.
As for open world PvP...
I miss the thrill of the hunt and, BEING hunted. Yes, I'm that rare bird that invites and ENJOYS being ganked.
That sort of constant danger keeps me on my toes and on high alert while exploring the landscape.
There really isn't any other feeling like it.
The best PvP experiences for me have always been those random, open world encounters, where you think you're going to do one task, only to find yourself fighting off a few enemies, and then that escaltes into an even bigger fight when you call in reinforcements.
No instanced battleground/scenario/warzone will ever be able to create those moments. Ever.
I honestly haven't a clue who to blame. The devs? The players for becoming soft? I don't know.
All I know is, there used to be a lot of people who enjoy (enjoyed) what I like in PvP. What happened to you guys?! Where are you!?
Obviously not. Why else would I be here?
Should I be playing all the raging successful post-WoW MMOs? You know.. the innovative ones with Aernas and Warzones?
Pretty much exactly what I like in open world pvp. Both ganking and being ganked. Bookmark-jumping in trusty Iteron in Eve through 20 0-sec gates (that's before bubbles) pursued by a blob of local gankers with 100+ mils of cargo in my holds! Boy was that fun.
Now? Now I'm in online action games. TF2 for fun, but mostly World of Tanks. Whole process is fun, twitchy, tactical, clever - and you don't have to be an expert in mouse jiggling to win. Brains matter much more than hands. No persistent anything, but I enjoy the process itself immensely. AND I can play it 30 minutes a day, couple of times a week, because I don't have time to actually live in the mmorpg anymore. Anyway, mmorpg pvp, well, sucks, compared. Instanced battlegrounds - action games do it better, hands down.
Try WoT. You may like it or not, but it's free, it's impressively made, and it's fun all the time.
It can't hurt, can it? I mean, how can you regard yourself as a hardcore PvPer if you've never participated in a tournament with cash prizes?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Because in general mmorpg arenas are laughable at best? If someone is really interested in e-sport tournaments and cash prizes they tend to play games built for that, not progression based, gear heavy mmorpgs....
He could quite easily be a "hardcore mmorpg pvpers" without ever setting foot in a MOBA tournament.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There are probably the same number of people now as there were ten years ago. There's just many more people who would rather PvP be a choice while playing.
If you want open world PvP, play an open world PvP game. If you don't, don't play a game with open world PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My feelings exactly. I didn't like PvP in mmorpg's until I tried it in a game that had consequences for losing and a reason to fight besides some silly ladder standings.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I hear WoW had few e-sport tournaments. GW1 had many e-sport tournaments. GW2 will have e-sport tournaments. Just because most MMORPGs have had imbalanced PvP doesn't mean they all have to have imbalanced PvP. E-sport PvP is exactly what is new and innovative in the genre.
We all know the term "hardcore" refers to harsh death penalty in MMORPGs, but honestly the players are laughable compared to the hardcore gamers from genres with competitive PvP such as MOBAs, FPSs and RTSs etc. But I'm getting sidetracked - this is not about player skill. All I'm saying is that "a PvPer who does not enjoy competition" sounds rather odd.
I like PvP and I like it in every game I play. I just prefer instanced PvP. But not for incentives, ignorance or my "carebear-iness" etc. I just find it more challenging and more fun a lot more consistently. Simple as that. Something that the OP overlooks completely. Maybe PvP servers are dying simply because people prefer instanced PvP.
For those who are in the minority, this is the place to vent.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
These days i see more PvPrs crying than PvErs.
Whining about being killed "while only questiing
:(" in a PVP server/based mmo in a gaming forum should perma ban you from any kind of pvp in any game past present and future. Simple as that.
Rawr.
The overwhelming majority of PVPers want True Competition (which is not found in any world PVP game.)
Sports, RTSes, FPSes, MOBAs; the overwhelming majority of players who want competition want it in a fair way where you can look back on each match and say you're more or less skilled than the people you beat, based on the outcome. And if you lose, you could potentially beat them next time simply by playing more skillfully.
Does a tiny niche audience genuinely prefer "I brought more friends" style PVP? Sure. But to suggest the entire MMORPG PVP situation should bend its knee to a tiny minority is sorta ridiculous.
If players wanted that style of gameplay it would exist. It does exist. It exists in a capacity which reflects its popularity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
non-instanced PvP, and especially FFA, full loot PvP, isn't just about winning fights, it's about the whole "virtual world" aspect of MMO gaming.
it's about going out into the world and not knowing what will happen.
it's about getting a group of friends together and go to a dungeon, only to find some other people there - not knowing if they'll attack you, join you, or flee for their lives.
it's about winning unexpected fights against all odds, getting away from murderers by playing it smart, and managing to get even once in a while.
it's about ambushes, sieges and battles that actually affect the world.
in other words: non-instanced, FFA PvP is about risk vs reward and real challenge, and about players using their brains because they actually have something to lose.
instanced PvP on the other hand is about farming e-peen points, gear and titles in small, static areas that does not affect the game world in any significant way.
it's about safe and mechanical gameplay without any real commitment or creativity.
it caters to a dumbed-down style of gaming, built upon the philosophy of instant gratification and and the demands of the "fast and easy"-generation.
that it 's the most popular form of PvP today does not mean that it's better in any way, just that today's AAA games are very good at exploiting the army of sheep-like consumer drones that make up 75% of contemporary MMO culture.
also, there is quite a huge niche audience for non-instanced, FFA PvP. sure, most recent games that have tried it have failed - but they didn't fail because they were FFA PvP, they failed because they were bad games.
ofc, neither DFO, MO, Earthrise, nor any other FFA title could ever compete with WoW or SWTOR. But given the interest shown for those games initially, it's clear that quite a lot of people do enjoy the risk vs. reward environment.
Games with a PvP server aren't PvP games...
PvP games are made for PvP, thus they cannot seperate them into separate servers. PvP severs in the current games are ONLY for griefers.... that's why people think that open/FFA PvP games are all about griefing.
Good PvP games prevent rampant griefing (you'll get some, but usually the community in these games will....stop them). It's been done in the past very easilly. I was never griefed playing L1 (alignment penalties), L2 (alignment penalties), SWG (big realistic virtual world), but I have been griefed in AoC...some F2P games...
I wasn't even griefed in DF.... killed yes... harrrassed? no...
Alot of people who get griefed probably keep running back towards the guy who merely killed them--> Take another route in other words. If there are no other routes, the game's poorly made and shouldn't have open pvp.
He's not saying that. He's saying that PvP servers are useless. You already have your "TOURNAMENT STYLE/ COMPETATIVE PVP" on PvE servers. These games with PvP servers just turn on flagging for everyone. It doesn't actually make there a reason to PvP.
When he says "real PvPers". He means PvP that includes a reason, a risk, and a reward. The games you mentioned are pretty much just about fun. The PvP he wants has more depth. The PvP on console games is pretty shallow compared to open-pvp. You need to use your brain a lot more in those games because you can outnumber people and you can be outnumbered, just grabbing all of your friends doesn't work in good PvP games. I've seen good PvP games where the player is outnumbered, yet still destroys the opposing side. A good PvP game can be as tactical as the shallow "tourney style" battles or it can be as tactical as a full out war. "Real PvPers" want this vast amount of depth.
If you've never experienced this depth, you haven't played a good PvP game.
Epeen or gear or titles are not the central focus. Competition is. Making the right decision (strategy/tactics) and executing it (twitch.)
It's about mechanical gameplay -- which is to say it's about gameplay. Nothing is "safe" about a game purely decision by player skill and teamwork though -- make bad decisions, you lose; make good ones, you win.
"Safe" would be a game where you can amass a fortune, buy an advantage, bring more friends, and win PVP without risk. The fights are lopsided and dull in such games, which is the primary reason they're unpopular. No amount of rationalizing your own opinion to others is gonna change the fact that most people don't want that kind of gameplay.
I'd argue that "most recent games that have tried it have failed" is a pretty obvious indicator that there isn't a "huge" niche audience for it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dunno, I always thought there was plenty of PvP on WoW PvP servers until they started giving people flying mounts.