Originally posted by Puremallace Originally posted by lizardbones
Rift is exactly what they described it to be. Anyone who was surprised at what Rift turned out to be didn't bother reading the feature lists.
I'm not big on raiding, so I was pretty sure I was going to get to max level in Rift, and then move on to something else. That's exactly what happened. I spent a decent two to three months playing and then moved on.
See but that is the hilarious part is you can get the raiding gear through methods like doing Rifts and then go into raiding. Right now there are: 1. 2 10man raids with a 3rd in 1.6 2. 3 20man raids 3. 5 20man Rift raids 4. 5 Expert rifts
You can not win for losing with some of the people on this website it seems. If they have raiding then it is a raiding game and you should not play it. If it does not have enough raiding then there is nothing to do and you should quit also.
I do not get why people keep saying these types of things on this board.
I don't know. I just wasn't interested in doing the whole gear thing, which included raiding (and incidentally the end game battleground stuff). I knew this going in and I knew it when I stopped playing. I got my money's worth out of the game.
On these forums though...yeah, you can't win. People freely interchange the ideas "I don't like this" with "This is universally bad". They also freely interchange the ideas "This is the list of features I want" with "This is the list of features they promised me!"
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I see your point and I want you to see mine. The OP made this thread here. I listed 5 current ways in the game right now that in WoW would be consider "ZOMG WTF WELFARE GEAR FOR CAUSALS DERPPP". I see the point, but it isn't correct. 1.6 ISN'T in the game 'right now'; that's the point. It's coming. When it's here, then they'll go Zomg. But until then, I can get just as excited about the coming features in GW2 that will make Rift fans go "ZOMG, we dont' have that!" So, you listed four ways which could be good enough without embellishing a list.
Trion realized after about patch 1.2 that taking the WoW path of raid or die was not going to work because people like the OP outnumbered hardcore raiders. Blizzard is going on 7 years and still has not realized this and it is clear as day every single patch. Blizzard didn't realize? You already admit they've been going seven years pretty strongly. All the money they've made and all the subs they've garnered speaks to the contrary of what you are claiming. Sure people are getting tired of "WoW mode", but look how long it too them. People were bored of Rift mode after three months. Trion had to change it to survive but there's no proof that some massive wave of people joined because they liked the changes. Many people tolerate Rift as a sub simply because they say there is 'nothing else out for now' until their next game comes out.
I think the OP deserves to know that unlike Blizzard who says well this expansion is crap, but next expansion will be better Trion does not make you wait. He is asking for more and with 1.6 they are adding more onto what it is already there.Where did Blizzard say their next expansion is crap? You read something I never saw. Trion is famous for "1.3 will be good. 1.4 will be good. 1.5 will be good." Heck, even you have always posting since two months ago "Guys, you should wait and see what's coming! I just saw previews of 1.6 and heres some theorycrafting! Here's what I thin will happen!"
I swear just from my knowledge of the game people who ask for stuff on the forums ussually get it within 2 months of it being posted. it seems they work that fast. There is just so much stuff Popin that I remember asking Blizzard that they told me was not technologically possible or was too time time consuming that Trion has done every patch.
This is all stuff Blizzard has told people for years until one day I got tired of hearing excuses and left. Trion has added content; no one is saying otherwise. But you know as well as I do it's broken up intentionally to make it seem like a lot. They always release a patch, then two weeks later, the actual event starts or something and is announced as "new content" when it was already part of that patch. They release things in little bites which makes it seem like it's a "lot" of stuff.
Example: two Chronicle solo dungeons, the attunement instance and PA. That's nothing compared to when Blizzard releases patches in size or scope. Then Trion waits two (or three?) weeks and put out the world event which was ALREADY part of 1.5 but announced as if it's a new separate thing. It's part of the patch but wasn't added because it was buggy, not because they just made something new in two weeks. They've done that kind of stuff all along from what I've seen.
WoW waits and releases one big expansion with zones, races, and all that stuff which is far larger in scope. Same way with maintainance, Rift does dinky maintainance 'hotfixes' everyday, twice or three times a day for a week totalling one hour and a half. WoW does one huge maintainence once for the whole week once a day that takes half the day totally six hours. No difference just how someone looks at it.
ok lets look at 4.2. One 7 man raid and that was it. Lets look at 4.1 2 recycled 5 man instances. Each of those patches were a few months apart.
Do I need to go down the list of what Trion has released in the same period of time. Like I have said you can no longer use the excuse that they have been working it before release. Planar attunement was made from scratch, addons made from scratch, coin lock made from scratch, all of their 10man content made from scratch, escalation war fronts made from scratch, chronicles made from scratch.
No dev out there remotely compares to Trion in my view.
Originally posted by Puremallace ok lets look at 4.2. One 7 man raid and that was it. Lets look at 4.1 2 recycled 5 man instances. Each of those patches were a few months apart.
Do I need to go down the list of what Trion has released in the same period of time. Like I have said you can no longer use the excuse that they have been working it before release. Planar attunement was made from scratch, addons made from scratch, coin lock made from scratch, all of their 10man content made from scratch, escalation war fronts made from scratch, chronicles made from scratch.
No dev out there remotely compares to Trion in my view.
Well, if you want to take a certain stretch of time in history and say that's how it always is to push a point, sure. But we know gaming companies don't work on the same cycles that their competition pushes content; that's now how it works. They plan X and when it's ready they release it. If it's buggy they hold it.
Planar attunement was taken from EQ2. It wasn't made from scratch. Scott H worked on EQ2. See the thing there? Addons.. I don't know much about but I know people can either take them or leave them.. they aren't important to the game overall. I played Rift for six months with NO addons and did perfectly fine. Them adding it isn't a feature imo, when someone else (third parties) are making them.
Coin lock? They HAD to put that in. You don't remember all the stolen accounts they had at launch? It was rampant like Chinese babies being auctioned off or something and they still have problems with it.
The things like 10 mans, Warfronts, Chronicles.. games had this before they did so I really am not understanding what you mean "from scratch". Everything there is already done some other places and you don't think they looked at that when they made theirs?
Trion is doing things to improve their game, don't get me wrong and I don't even mind stealing ideas which help. But you are treating it like Trion has invented NEW things instead of rehashed older ideas a bit.
Imo the only thing I know they "invented from scratch" was the one-button grey trash sales, which is a GREAT idea but I don't even know for sure they invented THAT from scratch.
Imo the only thing I know they "invented from scratch" was the one-button grey trash sales, which is a GREAT idea but I don't even know for sure they invented THAT from scratch.
Well can we atleast give them credit for AoE looting or was that copied from some backwater mmorpg. I know of atleast two major mmo's coming up copying that feature from Rift.
I think stuff that is simple like Instant Adventures will catch on also. Press a button a bam you are in a raid somewhere in the world and are on the same quest as a whole bunch of other people.
I would prefer a half/half approach to content. One thing I could not stand in WoW was they would create a a zone and you knew you were never going to go back to it. Like Ulduar or someting. I think Blizzard could turn Ulduar into a single player chronicle type thing.
People who say "raiding isn't what killed it" fail to realize that if raiding were not the only method of progression that devs can seem to come up, then there would be no problem at all. Raiding is a terrible time-sink, and I would rather something more akin to Demon Souls/Dark Souls for PS3. Make it for small groups, but make the bosses hard with several methods to defeat them, yada yada.
You could say that there would then be a lot of miffed players who can't play together, but there's generally only a few people who wanna play with each other at the time anyway, and the rest are extras. With more groups being made for the content, there's more room for each class and less waiting to play. In fact, there'd be no major reason to limit the amount of classes available, because there'll always be people wanting to set up groups for end-game 2-5 man content, rather than selectively setting times for a 10-20 that a lot of players can't even make because of real life engagements.
But that's just my opinion. At the very least, make the raidable dungeons have a 5-man version with reduced quality loot for people who want an alternate way to progress. It's still progression even if the gear isn't as good as a full on raid.
But that's just my opinion. At the very least, make the raidable dungeons have a 5-man version with reduced quality loot for people who want an alternate way to progress. It's still progression even if the gear isn't as good as a full on raid.
They do. There is a 5man with a new mode called Master Mode Darkening Deeps and on the pts there is Master Mode Deepstrike Mines.
These 5man instances reward tier 1 raid loot. They are far from easy, but are challenging and fun and with added boss mechanics and a new boss in their they stay fresh. Trion listens to this kind of feedback.
in rift raid it is basicly like this:dont open your mouth unless the thing you have to say directly relate to what is going on or will happen in 3 second,if you say what will happen in 30 second your are sent home and booted from the guild!
Originally posted by Puremallace Originally posted by popinjay Imo the only thing I know they "invented from scratch" was the one-button grey trash sales, which is a GREAT idea but I don't even know for sure they invented THAT from scratch.
Well can we atleast give them credit for AoE looting or was that copied from some backwater mmorpg. I know of atleast two major mmo's coming up copying that feature from Rift.
I think stuff that is simple like Instant Adventures will catch on also. Press a button a bam you are in a raid somewhere in the world and are on the same quest as a whole bunch of other people.
I would prefer a half/half approach to content. One thing I could not stand in WoW was they would create a a zone and you knew you were never going to go back to it. Like Ulduar or someting. I think Blizzard could turn Ulduar into a single player chronicle type thing.
The adventures sound interesting from what I've read. Anyway to add content that makes it easier in-game to access is a good thing.
I understand what you mean about you preferring the "piecemeal approach" to adding content Trion takes. There are advantages to having things added monthly (or every 50 days) that most of the base will finish by the time you're ready again. It keeps new things coming in so it looks as though you're always inventing (even if it is sometimes just "expert" dungeons or repeated/rehashed city event type quests done in five minutes). Most people won't notice the amount, just that it's "new". So volume=quality to them, even though it's buggy or somewhat lighthearted fare. But it gives the impression you can do more than anyone else does to fans which they like.
I guess being used to older games, I've gotten used to the "MAJOR EXPANSION PACKAGE! COME SEE NOW!" approach, as cheesy as it is sometimes. It gets overwhelming sometimes to try and do everything when expansions come out. The piecemeal approach does keep a steady flow, but I usually have little problems doing it quickly so I don't like that approach much.
Originally posted by centkin Originally posted by Foomerang Its like you go to a restaurant and look at the menu. You see an entree with broccoli. You hate broccoli but you order it anyway and you're pissed. Then your entree comes and you eat the broccoli and you hate it. Then you go home and say that restaurant sucked. Point is, do us all a favor and pick something else on the menu. Maybe something you actually like this time. I'm burnt out on dungeons, instanced pvp, and instanced raids. So I'm Rifting, crafting, and roleplaying. I'm having a great time (shock and awe!). If you can't find a single thing you like on the menu, then obviously its not for you. But to play an aspect of a game you hate, while there are plenty of other aspects, then blame the game? That's just....stupid?
Thing is though that it is not that you ordered an entree with brocolli -- at least not to start... The best restaurant analogy would be... You order steak and it has wonderful steak and that is what you order at the restaurant from level 1-49... When you hit level 50 the restaurant announces that it will no longer serve steak. You look at the new menu and all you see are these fancy french dishes that require a really refined pallette and are much spicier/fancier and slobbered in odd sauces that you don't like or understand. You try eating there a few times but it doesnt taste very good to you, you end up waiting 45 minutes for your meal instead of 12 minutes and you end up still being hungry when you finish the meal. What you really want is nice simple fare -- a good steak -- but they no longer serve steak... So you change restaurants and bemoan that it was once a great place to eat but it doesnt cater to you anymore.
Thing is though, Rift still serves steak at level 50. Traditional raiding is probably 1/5th of the endgame content in Rift. And Trion is moving further away from it every patch.
Originally posted by drbaltazar in rift raid it is basicly like this:dont open your mouth unless the thing you have to say directly relate to what is going on or will happen in 3 second,if you say what will happen in 30 second your are sent home and booted from the guild!
Haha so its Rift's fault that some people are jackasses...awesome.
Thing is though, Rift still serves steak at level 50. Traditional raiding is probably 1/5th of the endgame content in Rift. And Trion is moving further away from it every patch.
We are do for another 20man raid pretty soon and I expect it to be sometime late in 1.6 or maybe even 1.7 and it will be for Maelforge or Lathesys.
I played Rift on release. It was an ok game and kept me amused for a couple of months.
Durning that time I level'd 3 characters to 50 (Leveling was FAR to easy) and played through all the T1 and T2 instances.
The *new* Expert modes .. not interested. I would imagine it's just a roll-back to what T1/T2's were at launch, and I played them. The current T1/T2 dungeons are a joke. They used to be pretty challenging and fun, until Trion added the Dungeon Finder and nerf'd the hell out of them so that a group of chimps could play through them.
I agreed with a slight nerf to T1's, they were great for me and offered a good level of play, but I could admit that after 50 very easy levels they were a culture shock to alot of Trions player base. A slight nerf to T1's was in order IMO. The T2 nerf was terrible. T2's were suddenly so easy we could faceroll through them in record times. At the time of the Nerf we were working on the Assult achieves. (Rapid assult - compleate dungeon in X time) and they were fun and tuff. (DSM was a nightmare) After the nerf? joke.
The raids were tedious (to me) Did GSB and part of ROS before I finally gave up on Rift. Its possible that the recent changes have brought new life to the game, I can only hope that the *expert* versions of the dungeons tune them up to a high challenge level. Rift raids were interesting initially, but the amount of those plaques you had to grind was ugh. I did alot of the grinds in rifts, the factions, the dungeons, some PvP (Only made it to 4 - cap was 6 at the time) and alot of rift grinds. Yea all rift reps capped (so i could open raid rifts for guild) and the planarite grind (Post-nerf) was pretty harsh for stuff like the sight skill etc. (Dunno if thats been toned down abit though)
In all, Rift was a fun diversion for a couple of months, and they do seem to be adding content pretty quickly. For me there was no challenge level though after the nerf's. I enjoyed the pre-nerf T2's and the first 10-man (GP) When they started the WoW route (Dumbing down of content) I left.
In all, Rift was a fun diversion for a couple of months, and they do seem to be adding content pretty quickly. For me there was no challenge level though after the nerf's. I enjoyed the pre-nerf T2's and the first 10-man (GP) When they started the WoW route (Dumbing down of content) I left.
You want 1.6 then. Rise of the Phoenix is the new 10man on par with difficulty as Hammerknell which is a 20man. Another master mode introcued which is a intense version of DSM. Also another brand new 5 man I have not tested yet called Cadeucus Rise.
Also they are adding new T2 raid rifts to Ember Isle. I have yet to check these out either, since the build has not come on the pts quite yet.
lol I loved the restaurant analogy till I read he was basically saying the OP is stupid. That's what every negative response has said thus far. "You keep buying MMORPGs with raids in them so stop doing it! Raids are not for you!" The OP clearly wants to raid. The OP is not stupid and confused. Devs are just failing to add raid features that would fit his definition of raiding.
Here's what I like to think of Raids. One day a long time ago some guy invented a Raid Dungeon idea. He implemented it quite well in his game. Then for an entire decade everyone copied his idea without ever trying to change or fix any issues it had (Unlike the FPS Genre which solved things like Bunny Hopping for people who hated it and there are a million different forms of definitions of FPS). Oh sure you have games like WoW that made it more fancy and shiny and fixed little things but they never actually risked anything to fix bigger problems like adding other definitions to what it means to raid. (Like not having to have to schedule raids - doing it anytime with your realm in general and dividing it further)
In fact raids seem to be getting smaller and smaller instead of bigger and bigger. I'd say the raid genre is going backwards, not forwards.
Comments
1. 2 10man raids with a 3rd in 1.6
2. 3 20man raids
3. 5 20man Rift raids
4. 5 Expert rifts
You can not win for losing with some of the people on this website it seems. If they have raiding then it is a raiding game and you should not play it. If it does not have enough raiding then there is nothing to do and you should quit also.
I do not get why people keep saying these types of things on this board.
I don't know. I just wasn't interested in doing the whole gear thing, which included raiding (and incidentally the end game battleground stuff). I knew this going in and I knew it when I stopped playing. I got my money's worth out of the game.
On these forums though...yeah, you can't win. People freely interchange the ideas "I don't like this" with "This is universally bad". They also freely interchange the ideas "This is the list of features I want" with "This is the list of features they promised me!"
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"TO MICHAEL!"
ok lets look at 4.2. One 7 man raid and that was it. Lets look at 4.1 2 recycled 5 man instances. Each of those patches were a few months apart.
Do I need to go down the list of what Trion has released in the same period of time. Like I have said you can no longer use the excuse that they have been working it before release. Planar attunement was made from scratch, addons made from scratch, coin lock made from scratch, all of their 10man content made from scratch, escalation war fronts made from scratch, chronicles made from scratch.
No dev out there remotely compares to Trion in my view.
Planar attunement was taken from EQ2. It wasn't made from scratch. Scott H worked on EQ2. See the thing there? Addons.. I don't know much about but I know people can either take them or leave them.. they aren't important to the game overall. I played Rift for six months with NO addons and did perfectly fine. Them adding it isn't a feature imo, when someone else (third parties) are making them.
Coin lock? They HAD to put that in. You don't remember all the stolen accounts they had at launch? It was rampant like Chinese babies being auctioned off or something and they still have problems with it.
The things like 10 mans, Warfronts, Chronicles.. games had this before they did so I really am not understanding what you mean "from scratch". Everything there is already done some other places and you don't think they looked at that when they made theirs?
Trion is doing things to improve their game, don't get me wrong and I don't even mind stealing ideas which help. But you are treating it like Trion has invented NEW things instead of rehashed older ideas a bit.
Imo the only thing I know they "invented from scratch" was the one-button grey trash sales, which is a GREAT idea but I don't even know for sure they invented THAT from scratch.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Well can we atleast give them credit for AoE looting or was that copied from some backwater mmorpg. I know of atleast two major mmo's coming up copying that feature from Rift.
I think stuff that is simple like Instant Adventures will catch on also. Press a button a bam you are in a raid somewhere in the world and are on the same quest as a whole bunch of other people.
I would prefer a half/half approach to content. One thing I could not stand in WoW was they would create a a zone and you knew you were never going to go back to it. Like Ulduar or someting. I think Blizzard could turn Ulduar into a single player chronicle type thing.
People who say "raiding isn't what killed it" fail to realize that if raiding were not the only method of progression that devs can seem to come up, then there would be no problem at all. Raiding is a terrible time-sink, and I would rather something more akin to Demon Souls/Dark Souls for PS3. Make it for small groups, but make the bosses hard with several methods to defeat them, yada yada.
You could say that there would then be a lot of miffed players who can't play together, but there's generally only a few people who wanna play with each other at the time anyway, and the rest are extras. With more groups being made for the content, there's more room for each class and less waiting to play. In fact, there'd be no major reason to limit the amount of classes available, because there'll always be people wanting to set up groups for end-game 2-5 man content, rather than selectively setting times for a 10-20 that a lot of players can't even make because of real life engagements.
But that's just my opinion. At the very least, make the raidable dungeons have a 5-man version with reduced quality loot for people who want an alternate way to progress. It's still progression even if the gear isn't as good as a full on raid.
They do. There is a 5man with a new mode called Master Mode Darkening Deeps and on the pts there is Master Mode Deepstrike Mines.
These 5man instances reward tier 1 raid loot. They are far from easy, but are challenging and fun and with added boss mechanics and a new boss in their they stay fresh. Trion listens to this kind of feedback.
in rift raid it is basicly like this:dont open your mouth unless the thing you have to say directly relate to what is going on or will happen in 3 second,if you say what will happen in 30 second your are sent home and booted from the guild!
I think stuff that is simple like Instant Adventures will catch on also. Press a button a bam you are in a raid somewhere in the world and are on the same quest as a whole bunch of other people.
I would prefer a half/half approach to content. One thing I could not stand in WoW was they would create a a zone and you knew you were never going to go back to it. Like Ulduar or someting. I think Blizzard could turn Ulduar into a single player chronicle type thing.
The adventures sound interesting from what I've read. Anyway to add content that makes it easier in-game to access is a good thing.
I understand what you mean about you preferring the "piecemeal approach" to adding content Trion takes. There are advantages to having things added monthly (or every 50 days) that most of the base will finish by the time you're ready again. It keeps new things coming in so it looks as though you're always inventing (even if it is sometimes just "expert" dungeons or repeated/rehashed city event type quests done in five minutes). Most people won't notice the amount, just that it's "new". So volume=quality to them, even though it's buggy or somewhat lighthearted fare. But it gives the impression you can do more than anyone else does to fans which they like.
I guess being used to older games, I've gotten used to the "MAJOR EXPANSION PACKAGE! COME SEE NOW!" approach, as cheesy as it is sometimes. It gets overwhelming sometimes to try and do everything when expansions come out. The piecemeal approach does keep a steady flow, but I usually have little problems doing it quickly so I don't like that approach much.
"TO MICHAEL!"
The best restaurant analogy would be...
You order steak and it has wonderful steak and that is what you order at the restaurant from level 1-49...
When you hit level 50 the restaurant announces that it will no longer serve steak.
You look at the new menu and all you see are these fancy french dishes that require a really refined pallette and are much spicier/fancier and slobbered in odd sauces that you don't like or understand.
You try eating there a few times but it doesnt taste very good to you, you end up waiting 45 minutes for your meal instead of 12 minutes and you end up still being hungry when you finish the meal.
What you really want is nice simple fare -- a good steak -- but they no longer serve steak...
So you change restaurants and bemoan that it was once a great place to eat but it doesnt cater to you anymore.
Thing is though, Rift still serves steak at level 50. Traditional raiding is probably 1/5th of the endgame content in Rift. And Trion is moving further away from it every patch.
We are do for another 20man raid pretty soon and I expect it to be sometime late in 1.6 or maybe even 1.7 and it will be for Maelforge or Lathesys.
I played Rift on release. It was an ok game and kept me amused for a couple of months.
Durning that time I level'd 3 characters to 50 (Leveling was FAR to easy) and played through all the T1 and T2 instances.
The *new* Expert modes .. not interested. I would imagine it's just a roll-back to what T1/T2's were at launch, and I played them. The current T1/T2 dungeons are a joke. They used to be pretty challenging and fun, until Trion added the Dungeon Finder and nerf'd the hell out of them so that a group of chimps could play through them.
I agreed with a slight nerf to T1's, they were great for me and offered a good level of play, but I could admit that after 50 very easy levels they were a culture shock to alot of Trions player base. A slight nerf to T1's was in order IMO. The T2 nerf was terrible. T2's were suddenly so easy we could faceroll through them in record times. At the time of the Nerf we were working on the Assult achieves. (Rapid assult - compleate dungeon in X time) and they were fun and tuff. (DSM was a nightmare) After the nerf? joke.
The raids were tedious (to me) Did GSB and part of ROS before I finally gave up on Rift. Its possible that the recent changes have brought new life to the game, I can only hope that the *expert* versions of the dungeons tune them up to a high challenge level. Rift raids were interesting initially, but the amount of those plaques you had to grind was ugh. I did alot of the grinds in rifts, the factions, the dungeons, some PvP (Only made it to 4 - cap was 6 at the time) and alot of rift grinds. Yea all rift reps capped (so i could open raid rifts for guild) and the planarite grind (Post-nerf) was pretty harsh for stuff like the sight skill etc. (Dunno if thats been toned down abit though)
In all, Rift was a fun diversion for a couple of months, and they do seem to be adding content pretty quickly. For me there was no challenge level though after the nerf's. I enjoyed the pre-nerf T2's and the first 10-man (GP) When they started the WoW route (Dumbing down of content) I left.
You want 1.6 then. Rise of the Phoenix is the new 10man on par with difficulty as Hammerknell which is a 20man. Another master mode introcued which is a intense version of DSM. Also another brand new 5 man I have not tested yet called Cadeucus Rise.
Also they are adding new T2 raid rifts to Ember Isle. I have yet to check these out either, since the build has not come on the pts quite yet.
lol I loved the restaurant analogy till I read he was basically saying the OP is stupid. That's what every negative response has said thus far. "You keep buying MMORPGs with raids in them so stop doing it! Raids are not for you!" The OP clearly wants to raid. The OP is not stupid and confused. Devs are just failing to add raid features that would fit his definition of raiding.
Here's what I like to think of Raids. One day a long time ago some guy invented a Raid Dungeon idea. He implemented it quite well in his game. Then for an entire decade everyone copied his idea without ever trying to change or fix any issues it had (Unlike the FPS Genre which solved things like Bunny Hopping for people who hated it and there are a million different forms of definitions of FPS). Oh sure you have games like WoW that made it more fancy and shiny and fixed little things but they never actually risked anything to fix bigger problems like adding other definitions to what it means to raid. (Like not having to have to schedule raids - doing it anytime with your realm in general and dividing it further)
In fact raids seem to be getting smaller and smaller instead of bigger and bigger. I'd say the raid genre is going backwards, not forwards.