Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.
That's it.
You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.
It's just "too hard" to find fun. It exists, but it's just not easy to find. No game should keep fun so far out of reach. No game. period.
Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there. The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game. In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.
It's a niche market that is being devoured by simple inflation, roughly, at minimum 430 accounts every month. They didn't lay off 20% of the staff because numbers are looking good. If the margin was still there they could have easily floated the staff until WoD launched.
Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.
That's it.
You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.
It's just "too hard" to find fun. It exists, but it's just not easy to find. No game should keep fun so far out of reach. No game. period.
Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there. The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game. In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.
I would disagree about nothing else like it out there. While Perpetuum is not as advanced in some areas as EVE, it is also not plagued with many of the issues that EVE has.
It is often called an EVE clone. For anybody that has played EVE, I believe that if you download the game and play the 15 day trial - that from the start, it looks and feels like EVE. You're not flying through space - you're in a mech running across the ground.
Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.
That's it.
You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.
It's just "too hard" to find fun. It exists, but it's just not easy to find. No game should keep fun so far out of reach. No game. period.
Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there. The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game. In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.
It's a niche market that is being devoured by simple inflation, roughly, at minimum 430 accounts every month. They didn't lay off 20% of the staff because numbers are looking good. If the margin was still there they could have easily floated the staff until WoD launched.
That has nothing to do with eve, the whole western economy is on the edge of a major rebalancing event. Niche products have niche costs and optionally niche profits, its all relative.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Yalexy Don't listen to gimmesome. He's full of **** apparently not understanding the very nature of the EvE-systems. There's no minimum requirements to enjoy EvE Online, this is a misconception of people who apparently never played EvE Online for more then two days, whining that they couldn't fly the biggest ship withing this time. Learning the mechanics of EvE is the key to having fun in the game, and that starts with the knowledge of what to do with a Rifter and a few selected skills after some 3 weeks of training and listening to good advices from people. The longer you play, the bigger ships you'll be able to fly, but the bigger ships don't offer any more fun over the small ones, especially in those epic fights, where big ships do nothing but cycling their guns. There's much more fun to have flying a pesky frigate or some two month into the game an interceptor, where you actually have to show some playerskills. Oh and by the way.... I've got 90 Mil SP so far, and I've not trained a single capital ship skill, but only all the other ships, especially the frigate- and cruiser-sized ships.
Gimmesome is full of it? Wrong. He's spot on mate. I played EvE for subscribed time over 2 1/2 years between 2004 and 2008. I forgot about more changes during that time and since than most players even know about. Gimmesome has a valid point when he/she says that to succeed in EvE requires a substantial time investment... and even when you invest the time if you are not a top notch Player you will still be a slave, a tool, of the big boys. That IS EvE. Sure you can indeed have fun in a few days time training in a Rifter, I usually went Minmatar and was proud of it, but that is not the same thing that gimmesome is speaking of. It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.
I played EvE for subscribed time over 2 1/2 years between 2004 and 2008. I forgot about more changes during that time and since than most players even know about.
Gimmesome has a valid point when he/she says that to succeed in EvE requires a substantial time investment... and even when you invest the time if you are not a top notch Player you will still be a slave, a tool, of the big boys. That IS EvE.
Sure you can indeed have fun in a few days time training in a Rifter, I usually went Minmatar and was proud of it, but that is not the same thing that gimmesome is speaking of.
It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.
Yep. That's all I was getting at... I think it is a bit excessive to say I'm full of it. I didn't lie.
Besides, so what if there's the rare exception to the rule. I don't think that benefits the new player. "Well, I've been playing for this long, and i've got 90 mill SP, and I have a great time in frigates, and never bothered with capital ships" <-- yeah, bravo dude. That's a great impression to give to a new player.
JOIN EVE AND AFTER 4 YEARS OF PLAYTIME/TRAINING, YOU WILL STILL BE IN THE SAME SHIP YOU STARTED IN - otherwise, use your skillpoints and ISK to get into cap ships, and then take orders from other players on what to do with your cap ship and when you can fly it.... fun.
I played EvE for subscribed time over 2 1/2 years between 2004 and 2008. I forgot about more changes during that time and since than most players even know about.
Gimmesome has a valid point when he/she says that to succeed in EvE requires a substantial time investment... and even when you invest the time if you are not a top notch Player you will still be a slave, a tool, of the big boys. That IS EvE.
Sure you can indeed have fun in a few days time training in a Rifter, I usually went Minmatar and was proud of it, but that is not the same thing that gimmesome is speaking of.
It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.
Yep. That's all I was getting at... I think it is a bit excessive to say I'm full of it. I didn't lie.
Besides, so what if there's the rare exception to the rule. I don't think that benefits the new player. "Well, I've been playing for this long, and i've got 90 mill SP, and I have a great time in frigates, and never bothered with capital ships" <-- yeah, bravo dude. That's a great impression to give to a new player.
JOIN EVE AND AFTER 4 YEARS OF PLAYTIME/TRAINING, YOU WILL STILL BE IN THE SAME SHIP YOU STARTED IN - otherwise, use your skillpoints and ISK to get into cap ships, and then take orders from other players on what to do with your cap ship and when you can fly it.... fun.
The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though. There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers. I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships. What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.
Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.
The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though. There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers. I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships. What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.
Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.
Can't say i disagree. But still, in terms of actual combat itself, after agression has triggered, I don't feel very much that skills have a damn thing to do about it. Common sense? sure. But really, it comes down to who knows what the other guy(s) have fitted on their ship, and who has more ships. I've even done the 1v1 bs a bunch of times and it's just dumb.
The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though. There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers. I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships. What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.
Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.
Can't say i disagree. But still, in terms of actual combat itself, after agression has triggered, I don't feel very much that skills have a damn thing to do about it. Common sense? sure. But really, it comes down to who knows what the other guy(s) have fitted on their ship, and who has more ships. I've even done the 1v1 bs a bunch of times and it's just dumb.
No, EVE is not a twitch game. Twitch is not the end all discussion of skill. It is just one of the subsets of skill.
Skill
Twitch
Knowledge
Strategy
etc, etc, etc, etc.
For those looking for a twitchy space game, EVE is definitely not the game for them. The smallest combat ship you're flying is a frigate. Say we go with the real world equivalent...a naval frigate is not going to be zipping around like a jet ski.
Say we go with the real world equivalent...a naval frigate is not going to be zipping around like a jet ski.
Real world equivalent isn't a naval vessel, it would be the space shuttle, more or less.
Can't just ignore the fact that EVE's space mechanics are terrible to begin with. Yes, resemblant to Naval style vessels, but, why is that ok to overlook? If this was "Navy Battles Online" or something, fine, but it's not. It's supposed to be space in a zero grav non-friction environment.
And, I don't automatically mean twitch-based when I say skill. But, they did impliment some control over the ship and modules, so it's only fair to assume that actually controlling them should vary between players. lkdsalkbdsalfkabsflhba
i'm bored. nevermind. I know what EVE is, and you do too. Gunna stop watching this thread now, because the game is hopeless, and all it's bleeding subs are the result of that.
(no, there is not a healthy level of growth. 1 dude buying 10 copies and multiboxing means absolutely jack-shit.)
Originally posted by Gardavsshade It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.
You assume that unless you are running 0.0 territorial warfare and spent your life doing so, nothing else in EVE is fun and there is no other way to play and enjoy the game. That's not true.
EVE as a game does not require any more time investment or commitment than other games. What does though, is to some extent 0.0 territorial warfare and that is only one thing on the list of what you can do in EVE Online.
Your personal preference and bias do not make facts nor true.
I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char."
Well... yeah. So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char. Funny how that works. Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time. Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship. 60m skillpoints wasted? Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.
I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char."
Well... yeah. So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char. Funny how that works. Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time. Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship. 60m skillpoints wasted? Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.
GL, HF, FlySafe.
Frig vs. Frig.
The 4 day character vs. the 4 year character.
Look at what the 4 day character will be able to fit compared to the 4 year character.
Look at how well the 4 day character will be able to use what he fits compared to the 4 year character - even if you fit both Frigs so the 4 day can fly it, the 4 year will fly it better.
It is a skill based game where skills develop over time.
At some point, yes - the younger character will cap all the skills for a T1 Frig. He's finally caught up to the older character, eh? The older character shows up in an AF. Oopsie for the younger character. Once again though, that younger character will cap all the AF skills. Next ship? Again and again.
That is in relation to that pure 1v1. And on that point, I agree with Gimme. Pretty much everybody has to agree on that - because that is how it is.
But this is EVE we're talking about.
So what does the newer player do? Hell, he shows up with friends and WTFpwns the older player.
Course, the older player is likely to have more friends. He may hunt down the newer player, his friends, and anybody that helps...until they all quit or reroll into anonymity.
EVE definitely is not as simple as that 1 v 1 example - but SP works the way SP works.
For the most part, I disagree with most of what Gimme stated - fun is very subjective, after all...
...but you can't compare EVE with a level 15 vs. level 80/85 scenario. The 15 can catch up to the 80/85. There is a level cap.
There is not a cap in EVE.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char."
Well... yeah. So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char. Funny how that works. Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time. Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship. 60m skillpoints wasted? Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.
GL, HF, FlySafe.
Frig vs. Frig.
The 4 day character vs. the 4 year character.
Look at what the 4 day character will be able to fit compared to the 4 year character.
Look at how well the 4 day character will be able to use what he fits compared to the 4 year character - even if you fit both Frigs so the 4 day can fly it, the 4 year will fly it better.
It is a skill based game where skills develop over time.
At some point, yes - the younger character will cap all the skills for a T1 Frig. He's finally caught up to the older character, eh? The older character shows up in an AF. Oopsie for the younger character. Once again though, that younger character will cap all the AF skills. Next ship? Again and again.
That is in relation to that pure 1v1. And on that point, I agree with Gimme. Pretty much everybody has to agree on that - because that is how it is.
But this is EVE we're talking about.
So what does the newer player do? Hell, he shows up with friends and WTFpwns the older player.
Course, the older player is likely to have more friends. He may hunt down the newer player, his friends, and anybody that helps...until they all quit or reroll into anonymity.
EVE definitely is not as simple as that 1 v 1 example - but SP works the way SP works.
For the most part, I disagree with most of what Gimme stated - fun is very subjective, after all...
...but you can't compare EVE with a level 15 vs. level 80/85 scenario. The 15 can catch up to the 80/85. There is a level cap.
There is not a cap in EVE.
Skillpoints aren't levels. There are also a finite number of skills that can apply to a ship, and the skills themselves are capped. Therefore one can be considered "level capped" in a given ship; it's possible to reach a point where you simply can't get any better.
Not to mention the strongly diminishing returns on specialisation, which means that very few EVE players go all the way to "level 85" in any ship.
Skillpoints aren't levels. There are also a finite number of skills that can apply to a ship, and the skills themselves are capped. Therefore one can be considered "level capped" in a given ship; it's possible to reach a point where you simply can't get any better.
Not to mention the strongly diminishing returns on specialisation, which means that very few EVE players go all the way to "level 85" in any ship.
I did not state that SP were levels. I pointed out that as a reason that comparing SP with levels did not work.
I also addressed the issue of being skill capped in a ship...with the one player going from frig to assault frig.
I have two links up there - one a basic skill guide and the other the database of skills.
According to the skill guide, the following are skills that all pilots should train:
Energy Management
Energy Systems Operation
Engineering
Electronics
Spaceship Command
Navigation
Warp Drive Operation
Trade
Social
No, Trade and Social do not change what you'e doing in that particular frig fight.
Say we're going with a Rifter v Rifter fight, so we're training Minmatar. Here are the recommended skills for starting Min pilots:
Small Projectile Turret
Gunnery
Motion Prediction
Rapid Firing
Sharpshooter
Shield Operation
Shield Management
Missile Launcher Operation
Standard Missiles
Rockets
Long Range Targeting
Is that it though? Heh, they left out Minmatar Frigate. Still though, no, there are additional skills. Many more skills.
Then there are also the skills for larger ships. There are the skills for T2 ships.
The thing to keep in mind, this is all assuming that both were combat focused pilots on the same training path. Outside of that, then it may very well not be the case.
There are pilots with much less time than my guy, that can fly a Rifter much better than I can. I'll mine better than them, be able to work the market better than them, fly other ships (including oter frigates) better than them, and so much more - because take a look at that skill list again...there's a bunch of skills.
My guy never focused...jack of all trades. There are people with less time that can do some of the things better, but they cannot do all the things. And there are people with more time, that can do all that I do...and do it all better.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
The problem is a 4 year vet likely can afford to lose an assault frig and make that money back in 2 hours. A new player can lose their Ruppy on a level 3 mission and spend 6 days to rebuild their cash.
Factor in PvP, a player with 3 years under the belt can buy a lot of 40 Rifters and fit em all and PvP all weekend. 3 lvl 4 missions later in a HAC and 20 minutes a mission I can pay for all that. A new player has a very different experience.
We need more new, long term players. 450ish accounts every month that stick it out for a year. That's just to cover inflation.
What are we willing to give up to draw more player in. That is the question.
What timeframes are we complaining about here exactly I may ask.
How much time does a new player in EvE has to invest before he can fly LvL 4 missions to make tons of money in semiAFK-mode?
How much time does a new player need to train up skills needed for fun PvP-action and be competitive with most other players? And I'm talking about group vs. group here, where the new players do fly small ships like T2 interceptors, maybe T1 cruisers with T2 guns.
To make tons of money in semiAFK-missionrunning you need some 4 month of skill-training. Read the damn guides to know what to do, as that's what they're made for... for the new players to get there fast.
Training for T2 interceptors you need 3 month of skill-training, but more then half of that skills are needed for your mission-running setups aswell, so the additional time is only some mere 4 weeks actually.
And now comes the shocker... there's even corps outthere, like EvE University where you can go and have lots of help and fun right from day one.
Yes, the first three month in EvE might be harsh, but that's no different from WoW, where you need three month to grind your toon up to max-level and get your first epics. And I'm taling about two or three hours a day of playing, not power-leveling. EvE is actually very friendly, if we're talking about time-investment, as the skills do train themselves over time, even while you're offline and making money in EvE is easy enough with LvL4 mission-running aswell. Missions that you can do semi-AFK while watching a movie or reading a book.
Oh... and there's nothing better then to start a long skill before going to holiday for two weeks...
So. All this crap talk about time-investments and the need to make money to replace ships is total bollocks, as there's actually no other game outthere, that is rewarding you that much, with so little active time spent in the game.
I do find it kinda funny that so many of the EVE players disagree with gimmesome, while basically proving his point with their posts in this thread. I mean, take a look at the MMO world outside of EVE Online. Spending 4 months just being the new guy unable to do much is enough to make most gamers quit... Or not even consider EVE in the first place.
Most people don't want to fly the biggest ship within the first week or anything like that, but you really can't do anything remotely fun as a new player. Your mining skills suck, your combat skills suck, everything sucks and takes ages with no real feeling of achievement. You may as well come to terms with the fact that you're a nobody.
For at vet, 4 months seem like nothing I'm sure. They'd still consider a 4 month old player relatively new, but very few people (generally speaking) see it like that. And telling people that they can still advance while reading a book, going shopping, watching a movie or whatever, doesn't really help most people either. They're looking for a new game because they want to PLAY a new game. That was one of my main problems with EVE when I played it, I simply had nothing to do. Nothing I did would make "leveling" faster, so why play it at all? And if I'm watching a movie instead, then why would I pay for EVE during that time?
Actually PLAYING the game means grinding isk ("gold"). That's basically it. And don't expect breathtaking dog fights as a new player. Be prepared to be bored to tears.
In most games today, you stop being a "useless newbie" within the first month (You might even hit the level cap in some... Sadly.), but that is certainly not the case in EVE.
I'm not asking for 1000x training speed "buffs" or anything like that, but the game also needs to be fun for those 4 months it might take you to train something. I'd love to see actual game play having an effect on training times though. You'd think that actually playing the game, using your ship, firing your weapons etc. would make you better at it, I'd say. Want to be better at juggling? Practice! You don't simply start watching Scrubs and magically get better at juggling.
And before anyone starts, I did not start my gaming with WoW. I played Asheron's Call for years without ever hitting the cap, so I am not the kind of player who grew up with instant rewards.
Fun is a very subjective thing though, but some of the comments in this thread have been downright misleading, and I personally think that misleading information is partly to blame for so few of the new players sticking around. They join the game expecting what they've been told or have read, and that's not what they're getting at all. That's frustrating to say the least.
I remember being told that PvP was optional, and that I could play the game without ever having to worry about it, if I didn't enjoy that aspect. Well, that was a blatant lie. lol I joined some other friendly "newbies" in a new corp, and within a couple of days another corp. had declared war on us, and obviously those guys weren't at our "level". It was basically a case of "high levels" camping a "low level" spawn.. To use an analogy most MMO gamers might understand. And don't think EVE players will respect a "No, thank you." or a "I'm just going mining. Please let me pass. " lol You. Are. Dead. (That is, unless you sit in a station for days and days until the war is over. Good times!)
War decs. were a retarded idea that only made the game that much harder for new players wanting to have fun doing their own thing. People like making their own newbie guilds or corps, exploring the lands/space, grouping up to kill baddies etc. but that's very hard when the universe's only "safe" areas were suddenly made a lot less safe.
I think it would help A LOT if they would give new players more options. People should be able to do combat AND mining at first, so they can actually try out the different "paths" in EVE. Currently, both the newbie combat and newbie mining is ridiculous, and a new player really doesn't have any way of knowing how much better it will become if they stick around for months. They may go mining on day 1 and hate it. Spending a month training skills to try out something you don't know if you'll even enjoy is anything BUT newbie friendly, and I'm certain a lot of potential future vets simply got frustrated as a new player and /ragequit.
New players should be able to use basic mining barges, weapons, shields etc. so they can actually try playing around with it and see how much customization the game actually offers. Maybe CCP should simply add some lower requirement gear for the new players, so the vets. don't feel like they've wasted time training any skills.
It should be obvious to every EVE vet out there, that there's a real problem with the beginner experience. Otherwise people wouldn't quit so fast. They don't download and subscribe to a game hoping to quit within the first month. They want to like it, but they simply can't.
Basically, EVE is a high level play ground. You can certainly succeed in EVE as a new player, but you need to accept that your "life" will be directly or indirectly dictated by more experienced players. Maybe you can join a corp. that's part of a big alliance for example. The sandbox-design of EVE is there in theory, but once you're in the game, you realize that, in reality, your total freedom is somewhat limited.
And like gimmesome (And oddly enough, also the people disagreeing with him..) have said, be prepared to spend a long time (Compared to every other game on the market today, 4 months as a newbie = AGES.) just getting good at flying the first ship class.
For example, let's say you decide to try mining after a month.. You basically can't. You need to train mining skills for another month first if you want it to be even remotely enjoyable. You CAN go mining using your starter ship, but if anyone tells you, that is what they call fun gaming, they need their heads examined. You spend ages, you get next to nothing, you don't have any room to carry it etc.
A new player should also be aware, that most EVE players don't want new players in their corps at all. They have SP requirements that you (new player) won't get anywhere near within months. That was another of my big problems with EVE. The vets want more people to join the game, but they do everything possible to make new players' life as miserable as possible. lol I suspect a lot of them simply don't think about though. I doubt that most vets are actively trying to negatively affect new players.
And just because you train a skill allowing you to physically enter a better ship doesn't mean you should. You still won't be able to use decent weapons, decent shields etc. and you most likely can't afford to lose the new ship if you've been trying to get in it ASAP.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I simply had to comment here, as I find some of the answers downright ridiculous and misleading to any potential EVE player checking this forum.
All of the above negative points are based on an assumption that a new player wants to join a pvp guild. New players who have a much more balanced view I. E pve activities with pvp dabbling on their own terms, and most importantly levelling the skills in the areas they enjoy - rather than trying to rush to skill up to pvp with the big boys. Ofc the latter is going to be a difficult experience, it took vets years to skill up, and the correct state of mind is to appreciate and enjoy the career ahead of you.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Re poor returns because of low skills, vets posting here are basing their opinions on their view. Take mining, if it is your thing then the fact the returns are crap to start with is fine- because it is then satisfying to see the yield improve as skills improve. Also new players are not aiming for x million isk per hour, again it is relative to their experience.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Re poor returns because of low skills, vets posting here are basing their opinions on their view. Take mining, if it is your thing then the fact the returns are crap to start with is fine- because it is then satisfying to see the yield improve as skills improve. Also new players are not aiming for x million isk per hour, again it is relative to their experience.
The new player is looking at the fact that they're in a crappy ship. The new player is seeing folks flying around in groups and devouring belts. So yes, they are looking at how they can make X ISK/hour. Some of them beg. They're hunted down my suicide alts.
Speaking of suicide alts... I really miss those Kestrel days, lol.
When I started out, I did not feel that need to rush. Hell, I never felt it in all the time I played. It is likely one of the reasons that I played as much as I did.
Look around at the number of threads discussing game speed in other games. There are those of us complaining it is too fast - there are those of them complaining it is still too slow.
EVE definitely appeals to certain players.
Folks should not be trying to sell the game to the players that it will not appeal to...dishonesty in advertising sucks.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
This argument regularly comes down to the solo [ship] pilot vs another solo [ship] pilot and the 'all other things equal' (except what weighs in my argument's favor) stance, which - in my experience with EVE - isn't very realistic. The majority of new players are not looking for PVP and they are not in low/null sec regions. There are few, if any, PVP rifter pilots hunting solo newbie rifters in high sec. The scenario doesn't seem to make much sense.
That aside, I read through the "4 months" post and replies, and those who see it as unreasonable are being rather unreasonable themselves. The timeframe as presented was the length of time until doing Level 4 missions (semiAFK, even) or length of time to fly with the big dogs. Basically, the time to get to what the EQ/WOW crowd calls "endgame". In arguing against that, it is being presented as 4 months until you can do anything at all.
"Your mining skills suck, your combat skills suck, everything sucks and takes ages with no real feeling of achievement. You may as well come to terms with the fact that you're a nobody. "
A new player doesn't know from exhumers and assault frigates. They are playing the game, accumulating contacts, skills, gear and ships to further their goals. In EVE, a player with a month or so can contribute meaningfully to the corp's manufacturing, resource gathering and fleet ops. Apply the "everything sucks below cap' argument" to any other MMO. As a low level player in most other MMOs, there isn't really anything you can meaningfully contribute to the veterans in your guild. You can't really gather anything important. You can't join the raids. Nothing you make is of value to the guild. And by 'low level player' one can realistically apply that term to pretty much anything below the top 10-20 levels, since not only does level disparity make it a waste of time but level restrictions also make it impossible.
EVE lacks the great big DING and fireworks of a level up, and maybe that's what it needs in some way. I'm being serious, btw. Contemporary level-based MMOs triumphantly announce each and every achievement, from making it 5 levels with out dying to killing your first 'critter' to discovering the WAAAAGH. I'm not sure what that last one was, but I got a big congradulatory window and fanfare in one game with that message when I rightclicked the first NPC I found.
Maybe EVE needs a more celebratory recognition of accomplishments for those measuring their progress through meters and achievement lists. Most accomplishments in EVE can't really be measured as it is the interactions and intent that determine the accomplishment and progression. An alliance made, a war started (or averted, for that matter), a shrewd margin call, intel gathered, a con completed, or an assassination perfectly executed. The rules of most goals in EVE are player-defined so a system like that would be tricky. It's probably worth exploring, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Grand_LC I do find it kinda funny that so many of the EVE players disagree with gimmesome, while basically proving his point with their posts in this thread. I mean, take a look at the MMO world outside of EVE Online. Spending 4 months just being the new guy unable to do much is enough to make most gamers quit... Or not even consider EVE in the first place. Most people don't want to fly the biggest ship within the first week or anything like that, but you really can't do anything remotely fun as a new player. Your mining skills suck, your combat skills suck, everything sucks and takes ages with no real feeling of achievement. You may as well come to terms with the fact that you're a nobody.
*snip*
Go play WoW or any other game like it and only play the game for two or three hours a day (casual player). You'll need four month aswell to get to the fun part of the game (max-level raiding), as all you're doing to reach max-level is worth nothing and might seen aswell to be wasted time for most players.
The time to get there is used to gain knowledge about the gamemechanics, and this is exactly the same in EvE. You start with the tutorial-stuff, then you go from LvL1-missions in frigates to LvL2-missions in cruisers to LvL3/LvL4-missions in battleships. It's pretty much straight-forward progression and the money you gain is spent on skillbooks and equipment-improvements, just like you're doing it in WoW.
Seriously, there's not the slightest difference between EvE and WoW in that regard, with the exception of EvE being more passive gameplay and more about reading guides and talking to other people, gaining the knowledge needed to play the game effectively, learning about fittings etc. This is the so called "steep learning curve" in EvE, and I don't see any problem with this. It seperates the theory-crafters from the button-mashers and that's why alot of people do like EvE Onlline the way it is.
Yes, EvE takes a different approach and for lot's of people this is not the game they'Re looking for, but trying to turn EvE into another WoW doesn't help aswell.
Comments
It's a niche market that is being devoured by simple inflation, roughly, at minimum 430 accounts every month. They didn't lay off 20% of the staff because numbers are looking good. If the margin was still there they could have easily floated the staff until WoD launched.
I would disagree about nothing else like it out there. While Perpetuum is not as advanced in some areas as EVE, it is also not plagued with many of the issues that EVE has.
It is often called an EVE clone. For anybody that has played EVE, I believe that if you download the game and play the 15 day trial - that from the start, it looks and feels like EVE. You're not flying through space - you're in a mech running across the ground.
Combat - mining - manufacturing - market - etc, etc, etc - it's there.
It's funny how much it looks and feels like EVE, one could almost think that CCP had made the game.
That has nothing to do with eve, the whole western economy is on the edge of a major rebalancing event. Niche products have niche costs and optionally niche profits, its all relative.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Wrong. He's spot on mate.
I played EvE for subscribed time over 2 1/2 years between 2004 and 2008. I forgot about more changes during that time and since than most players even know about.
Gimmesome has a valid point when he/she says that to succeed in EvE requires a substantial time investment... and even when you invest the time if you are not a top notch Player you will still be a slave, a tool, of the big boys. That IS EvE.
Sure you can indeed have fun in a few days time training in a Rifter, I usually went Minmatar and was proud of it, but that is not the same thing that gimmesome is speaking of.
It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.
Yep. That's all I was getting at... I think it is a bit excessive to say I'm full of it. I didn't lie.
Besides, so what if there's the rare exception to the rule. I don't think that benefits the new player. "Well, I've been playing for this long, and i've got 90 mill SP, and I have a great time in frigates, and never bothered with capital ships" <-- yeah, bravo dude. That's a great impression to give to a new player.
JOIN EVE AND AFTER 4 YEARS OF PLAYTIME/TRAINING, YOU WILL STILL BE IN THE SAME SHIP YOU STARTED IN - otherwise, use your skillpoints and ISK to get into cap ships, and then take orders from other players on what to do with your cap ship and when you can fly it.... fun.
The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though. There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers. I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships. What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.
Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.
I might add that all the years I played EVE, I noticed more activity in EVE forums than in the actual game.
EVE is pretty much, the perfect theory crafter's haven. More fun to talk about than to play.
Can't say i disagree. But still, in terms of actual combat itself, after agression has triggered, I don't feel very much that skills have a damn thing to do about it. Common sense? sure. But really, it comes down to who knows what the other guy(s) have fitted on their ship, and who has more ships. I've even done the 1v1 bs a bunch of times and it's just dumb.
No, EVE is not a twitch game. Twitch is not the end all discussion of skill. It is just one of the subsets of skill.
Skill
Twitch
Knowledge
Strategy
etc, etc, etc, etc.
For those looking for a twitchy space game, EVE is definitely not the game for them. The smallest combat ship you're flying is a frigate. Say we go with the real world equivalent...a naval frigate is not going to be zipping around like a jet ski.
Real world equivalent isn't a naval vessel, it would be the space shuttle, more or less.
Can't just ignore the fact that EVE's space mechanics are terrible to begin with. Yes, resemblant to Naval style vessels, but, why is that ok to overlook? If this was "Navy Battles Online" or something, fine, but it's not. It's supposed to be space in a zero grav non-friction environment.
And, I don't automatically mean twitch-based when I say skill. But, they did impliment some control over the ship and modules, so it's only fair to assume that actually controlling them should vary between players. lkdsalkbdsalfkabsflhba
i'm bored. nevermind. I know what EVE is, and you do too. Gunna stop watching this thread now, because the game is hopeless, and all it's bleeding subs are the result of that.
(no, there is not a healthy level of growth. 1 dude buying 10 copies and multiboxing means absolutely jack-shit.)
You assume that unless you are running 0.0 territorial warfare and spent your life doing so, nothing else in EVE is fun and there is no other way to play and enjoy the game. That's not true.
EVE as a game does not require any more time investment or commitment than other games. What does though, is to some extent 0.0 territorial warfare and that is only one thing on the list of what you can do in EVE Online.
Your personal preference and bias do not make facts nor true.
I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char."
Well... yeah. So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char. Funny how that works. Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time. Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship. 60m skillpoints wasted? Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.
GL, HF, FlySafe.
Frig vs. Frig.
The 4 day character vs. the 4 year character.
Look at what the 4 day character will be able to fit compared to the 4 year character.
Look at how well the 4 day character will be able to use what he fits compared to the 4 year character - even if you fit both Frigs so the 4 day can fly it, the 4 year will fly it better.
It is a skill based game where skills develop over time.
At some point, yes - the younger character will cap all the skills for a T1 Frig. He's finally caught up to the older character, eh? The older character shows up in an AF. Oopsie for the younger character. Once again though, that younger character will cap all the AF skills. Next ship? Again and again.
That is in relation to that pure 1v1. And on that point, I agree with Gimme. Pretty much everybody has to agree on that - because that is how it is.
But this is EVE we're talking about.
So what does the newer player do? Hell, he shows up with friends and WTFpwns the older player.
Course, the older player is likely to have more friends. He may hunt down the newer player, his friends, and anybody that helps...until they all quit or reroll into anonymity.
EVE definitely is not as simple as that 1 v 1 example - but SP works the way SP works.
For the most part, I disagree with most of what Gimme stated - fun is very subjective, after all...
...but you can't compare EVE with a level 15 vs. level 80/85 scenario. The 15 can catch up to the 80/85. There is a level cap.
There is not a cap in EVE.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Skillpoints aren't levels. There are also a finite number of skills that can apply to a ship, and the skills themselves are capped. Therefore one can be considered "level capped" in a given ship; it's possible to reach a point where you simply can't get any better.
Not to mention the strongly diminishing returns on specialisation, which means that very few EVE players go all the way to "level 85" in any ship.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skills_guide
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Skills
I did not state that SP were levels. I pointed out that as a reason that comparing SP with levels did not work.
I also addressed the issue of being skill capped in a ship...with the one player going from frig to assault frig.
I have two links up there - one a basic skill guide and the other the database of skills.
According to the skill guide, the following are skills that all pilots should train:
Energy Management
Energy Systems Operation
Engineering
Electronics
Spaceship Command
Navigation
Warp Drive Operation
Trade
Social
No, Trade and Social do not change what you'e doing in that particular frig fight.
Say we're going with a Rifter v Rifter fight, so we're training Minmatar. Here are the recommended skills for starting Min pilots:
Small Projectile Turret
Gunnery
Motion Prediction
Rapid Firing
Sharpshooter
Shield Operation
Shield Management
Missile Launcher Operation
Standard Missiles
Rockets
Long Range Targeting
Is that it though? Heh, they left out Minmatar Frigate. Still though, no, there are additional skills. Many more skills.
Then there are also the skills for larger ships. There are the skills for T2 ships.
The thing to keep in mind, this is all assuming that both were combat focused pilots on the same training path. Outside of that, then it may very well not be the case.
There are pilots with much less time than my guy, that can fly a Rifter much better than I can. I'll mine better than them, be able to work the market better than them, fly other ships (including oter frigates) better than them, and so much more - because take a look at that skill list again...there's a bunch of skills.
My guy never focused...jack of all trades. There are people with less time that can do some of the things better, but they cannot do all the things. And there are people with more time, that can do all that I do...and do it all better.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
The problem is a 4 year vet likely can afford to lose an assault frig and make that money back in 2 hours. A new player can lose their Ruppy on a level 3 mission and spend 6 days to rebuild their cash.
Factor in PvP, a player with 3 years under the belt can buy a lot of 40 Rifters and fit em all and PvP all weekend. 3 lvl 4 missions later in a HAC and 20 minutes a mission I can pay for all that. A new player has a very different experience.
We need more new, long term players. 450ish accounts every month that stick it out for a year. That's just to cover inflation.
What are we willing to give up to draw more player in. That is the question.
What timeframes are we complaining about here exactly I may ask.
How much time does a new player in EvE has to invest before he can fly LvL 4 missions to make tons of money in semiAFK-mode?
How much time does a new player need to train up skills needed for fun PvP-action and be competitive with most other players? And I'm talking about group vs. group here, where the new players do fly small ships like T2 interceptors, maybe T1 cruisers with T2 guns.
To make tons of money in semiAFK-missionrunning you need some 4 month of skill-training. Read the damn guides to know what to do, as that's what they're made for... for the new players to get there fast.
Training for T2 interceptors you need 3 month of skill-training, but more then half of that skills are needed for your mission-running setups aswell, so the additional time is only some mere 4 weeks actually.
And now comes the shocker... there's even corps outthere, like EvE University where you can go and have lots of help and fun right from day one.
Yes, the first three month in EvE might be harsh, but that's no different from WoW, where you need three month to grind your toon up to max-level and get your first epics. And I'm taling about two or three hours a day of playing, not power-leveling.
EvE is actually very friendly, if we're talking about time-investment, as the skills do train themselves over time, even while you're offline and making money in EvE is easy enough with LvL4 mission-running aswell. Missions that you can do semi-AFK while watching a movie or reading a book.
Oh... and there's nothing better then to start a long skill before going to holiday for two weeks...
So. All this crap talk about time-investments and the need to make money to replace ships is total bollocks, as there's actually no other game outthere, that is rewarding you that much, with so little active time spent in the game.
I do find it kinda funny that so many of the EVE players disagree with gimmesome, while basically proving his point with their posts in this thread. I mean, take a look at the MMO world outside of EVE Online. Spending 4 months just being the new guy unable to do much is enough to make most gamers quit... Or not even consider EVE in the first place.
Most people don't want to fly the biggest ship within the first week or anything like that, but you really can't do anything remotely fun as a new player. Your mining skills suck, your combat skills suck, everything sucks and takes ages with no real feeling of achievement. You may as well come to terms with the fact that you're a nobody.
For at vet, 4 months seem like nothing I'm sure. They'd still consider a 4 month old player relatively new, but very few people (generally speaking) see it like that. And telling people that they can still advance while reading a book, going shopping, watching a movie or whatever, doesn't really help most people either. They're looking for a new game because they want to PLAY a new game. That was one of my main problems with EVE when I played it, I simply had nothing to do. Nothing I did would make "leveling" faster, so why play it at all? And if I'm watching a movie instead, then why would I pay for EVE during that time?
Actually PLAYING the game means grinding isk ("gold"). That's basically it. And don't expect breathtaking dog fights as a new player. Be prepared to be bored to tears.
In most games today, you stop being a "useless newbie" within the first month (You might even hit the level cap in some... Sadly.), but that is certainly not the case in EVE.
I'm not asking for 1000x training speed "buffs" or anything like that, but the game also needs to be fun for those 4 months it might take you to train something. I'd love to see actual game play having an effect on training times though. You'd think that actually playing the game, using your ship, firing your weapons etc. would make you better at it, I'd say. Want to be better at juggling? Practice! You don't simply start watching Scrubs and magically get better at juggling.
And before anyone starts, I did not start my gaming with WoW. I played Asheron's Call for years without ever hitting the cap, so I am not the kind of player who grew up with instant rewards.
Fun is a very subjective thing though, but some of the comments in this thread have been downright misleading, and I personally think that misleading information is partly to blame for so few of the new players sticking around. They join the game expecting what they've been told or have read, and that's not what they're getting at all. That's frustrating to say the least.
I remember being told that PvP was optional, and that I could play the game without ever having to worry about it, if I didn't enjoy that aspect. Well, that was a blatant lie. lol I joined some other friendly "newbies" in a new corp, and within a couple of days another corp. had declared war on us, and obviously those guys weren't at our "level". It was basically a case of "high levels" camping a "low level" spawn.. To use an analogy most MMO gamers might understand. And don't think EVE players will respect a "No, thank you." or a "I'm just going mining. Please let me pass.
" lol You. Are. Dead. (That is, unless you sit in a station for days and days until the war is over. Good times!)
War decs. were a retarded idea that only made the game that much harder for new players wanting to have fun doing their own thing. People like making their own newbie guilds or corps, exploring the lands/space, grouping up to kill baddies etc. but that's very hard when the universe's only "safe" areas were suddenly made a lot less safe.
I think it would help A LOT if they would give new players more options. People should be able to do combat AND mining at first, so they can actually try out the different "paths" in EVE. Currently, both the newbie combat and newbie mining is ridiculous, and a new player really doesn't have any way of knowing how much better it will become if they stick around for months. They may go mining on day 1 and hate it. Spending a month training skills to try out something you don't know if you'll even enjoy is anything BUT newbie friendly, and I'm certain a lot of potential future vets simply got frustrated as a new player and /ragequit.
New players should be able to use basic mining barges, weapons, shields etc. so they can actually try playing around with it and see how much customization the game actually offers. Maybe CCP should simply add some lower requirement gear for the new players, so the vets. don't feel like they've wasted time training any skills.
It should be obvious to every EVE vet out there, that there's a real problem with the beginner experience. Otherwise people wouldn't quit so fast. They don't download and subscribe to a game hoping to quit within the first month. They want to like it, but they simply can't.
Basically, EVE is a high level play ground. You can certainly succeed in EVE as a new player, but you need to accept that your "life" will be directly or indirectly dictated by more experienced players. Maybe you can join a corp. that's part of a big alliance for example. The sandbox-design of EVE is there in theory, but once you're in the game, you realize that, in reality, your total freedom is somewhat limited.
And like gimmesome (And oddly enough, also the people disagreeing with him..) have said, be prepared to spend a long time (Compared to every other game on the market today, 4 months as a newbie = AGES.) just getting good at flying the first ship class.
For example, let's say you decide to try mining after a month.. You basically can't. You need to train mining skills for another month first if you want it to be even remotely enjoyable. You CAN go mining using your starter ship, but if anyone tells you, that is what they call fun gaming, they need their heads examined. You spend ages, you get next to nothing, you don't have any room to carry it etc.
A new player should also be aware, that most EVE players don't want new players in their corps at all. They have SP requirements that you (new player) won't get anywhere near within months. That was another of my big problems with EVE. The vets want more people to join the game, but they do everything possible to make new players' life as miserable as possible. lol I suspect a lot of them simply don't think about though. I doubt that most vets are actively trying to negatively affect new players.
And just because you train a skill allowing you to physically enter a better ship doesn't mean you should. You still won't be able to use decent weapons, decent shields etc. and you most likely can't afford to lose the new ship if you've been trying to get in it ASAP.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I simply had to comment here, as I find some of the answers downright ridiculous and misleading to any potential EVE player checking this forum.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The new player is looking at the fact that they're in a crappy ship. The new player is seeing folks flying around in groups and devouring belts. So yes, they are looking at how they can make X ISK/hour. Some of them beg. They're hunted down my suicide alts.
Speaking of suicide alts... I really miss those Kestrel days, lol.
When I started out, I did not feel that need to rush. Hell, I never felt it in all the time I played. It is likely one of the reasons that I played as much as I did.
Look around at the number of threads discussing game speed in other games. There are those of us complaining it is too fast - there are those of them complaining it is still too slow.
EVE definitely appeals to certain players.
Folks should not be trying to sell the game to the players that it will not appeal to...dishonesty in advertising sucks.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
From reading this thread it seems like most people are essentially agreeing but arguing over what they find fun.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Suicide ganking in hi sec space not fun account cancled.
MAGA
This argument regularly comes down to the solo [ship] pilot vs another solo [ship] pilot and the 'all other things equal' (except what weighs in my argument's favor) stance, which - in my experience with EVE - isn't very realistic. The majority of new players are not looking for PVP and they are not in low/null sec regions. There are few, if any, PVP rifter pilots hunting solo newbie rifters in high sec. The scenario doesn't seem to make much sense.
That aside, I read through the "4 months" post and replies, and those who see it as unreasonable are being rather unreasonable themselves. The timeframe as presented was the length of time until doing Level 4 missions (semiAFK, even) or length of time to fly with the big dogs. Basically, the time to get to what the EQ/WOW crowd calls "endgame". In arguing against that, it is being presented as 4 months until you can do anything at all.
"Your mining skills suck, your combat skills suck, everything sucks and takes ages with no real feeling of achievement. You may as well come to terms with the fact that you're a nobody.
"
A new player doesn't know from exhumers and assault frigates. They are playing the game, accumulating contacts, skills, gear and ships to further their goals. In EVE, a player with a month or so can contribute meaningfully to the corp's manufacturing, resource gathering and fleet ops. Apply the "everything sucks below cap' argument" to any other MMO. As a low level player in most other MMOs, there isn't really anything you can meaningfully contribute to the veterans in your guild. You can't really gather anything important. You can't join the raids. Nothing you make is of value to the guild. And by 'low level player' one can realistically apply that term to pretty much anything below the top 10-20 levels, since not only does level disparity make it a waste of time but level restrictions also make it impossible.
EVE lacks the great big DING and fireworks of a level up, and maybe that's what it needs in some way. I'm being serious, btw. Contemporary level-based MMOs triumphantly announce each and every achievement, from making it 5 levels with out dying to killing your first 'critter' to discovering the WAAAAGH. I'm not sure what that last one was, but I got a big congradulatory window and fanfare in one game with that message when I rightclicked the first NPC I found.
Maybe EVE needs a more celebratory recognition of accomplishments for those measuring their progress through meters and achievement lists. Most accomplishments in EVE can't really be measured as it is the interactions and intent that determine the accomplishment and progression. An alliance made, a war started (or averted, for that matter), a shrewd margin call, intel gathered, a con completed, or an assassination perfectly executed. The rules of most goals in EVE are player-defined so a system like that would be tricky. It's probably worth exploring, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Go play WoW or any other game like it and only play the game for two or three hours a day (casual player). You'll need four month aswell to get to the fun part of the game (max-level raiding), as all you're doing to reach max-level is worth nothing and might seen aswell to be wasted time for most players.
The time to get there is used to gain knowledge about the gamemechanics, and this is exactly the same in EvE.
You start with the tutorial-stuff, then you go from LvL1-missions in frigates to LvL2-missions in cruisers to LvL3/LvL4-missions in battleships. It's pretty much straight-forward progression and the money you gain is spent on skillbooks and equipment-improvements, just like you're doing it in WoW.
Seriously, there's not the slightest difference between EvE and WoW in that regard, with the exception of EvE being more passive gameplay and more about reading guides and talking to other people, gaining the knowledge needed to play the game effectively, learning about fittings etc.
This is the so called "steep learning curve" in EvE, and I don't see any problem with this. It seperates the theory-crafters from the button-mashers and that's why alot of people do like EvE Onlline the way it is.
Yes, EvE takes a different approach and for lot's of people this is not the game they'Re looking for, but trying to turn EvE into another WoW doesn't help aswell.