My point about effort was compared to other MMOs out there. Take Vanguard, WoW, EQ, AC, AO... Whatever.. If you put time and effort into it, you will level fast and soon you'll be able to join the high levels and have some fun with them. If you're a casual player, you will level slower but you'll get there eventually.
In EVE there's no real difference. A hardcore MMO'er being new in EVE doesn't really advance any faster than a casual EVE-newbie no matter how much time he's willing to put into the game. Sure, he can mine more per day (If he trained that as a lowbie) or grind more ISK (which is basically nothing at "low levels".) but he can't do anything to advance even if he spends 16 hours a day ingame. Being "hardcore" and EVE-newbie at the same time is like the ultimate frustation.. It's just a waiting game.
That argument does not take int account social connections, learning speed and the ability to apply what one has learned. You are working on the false assumption that EVE works like most other MMOs where advancement, progression and success are
1) primarily dictated by stats
2) solely combat centric
Ingenuity, social engineering, charisma and stretegic thinking are skills that carry far more weight in EVE than the stats themselves.
You also are working on the horribly false assumption that all people learn at the same speed, have the same ethics and are equally intelligent, wise or clever.
Actually 1 is accurate. Without specific stats in the form of skills you cannot fit ships effectively. Without thermodynamics you cannnot overload a rack putting you at a severe disadvantage in 1 v 1 combat. Without Weapon Upgrades 5 many ship fits are out of reach without +3 or +5 implants for CPU and Energy. I'd like to see a rifter beat out a wolf 1v1 but that just doesn't happen unless the wolf pilot is afk. The difference for Ratting with 500,000 in shield skills versus 1 mil. The list goes on. You skills are the actual stats when you look at your ship as the actual character and the difference between someone having Energy Systems 3 vs 5 is night and day.
For #2 why is it every time I turn around some 50 mil skillpoint douche is telling new players that Eve is all about PvP but 3 seconds later someone posts about Eve isn't combat centric? So Cap rebalancing, Sov 0.0 mechanics fixes, Hybrid Turrents AND EVERY FUCKING THING THEY BRAG ABOUT THE WINTER EXPANSION isn't combat centric? Your right... I guess, but CCP and the other 99% seem to disagree.
"Eve is Real" vs "Eve is a game". "Eve is Real" will kill Eve online. Eve Online used to be a game, a game about ships in space. Only now, after 20% of their staff is gone do most of us realize we need to get back to Eve being a game. Everyone else that thinks "Eve is real" needs to be committed to a mental institution. Eve needs to grow. 450 accounts every month just to clear inflation (and that is assuming all 450 accounts become permanent players.)
Adding new shit doesn't attract new players. There is some much shit to do even 50 mil skillpoint players are finding new shit to do. Eve is being held back by stubborn, arrogant, and from what I can gather selfish assholes that would rather watch "Their Eve" crash and burn rather then make ANY concessions to bring in, and keep, new players.
We can't rely on Goonswarm n00b drives to draw in players. 3 accounts per player fueled by plex won't cut it either. PLEX inflation is telling us we don't have enough new players putting PLEX into the system to subsidize and catch up. Eventually the PLEX bubble pops and we risk mass-canellations (all those plex alts that don't get renewed). CCP dumping plex into the system just cuts even more out of what little net-margin they may have left.
I'm damn near the point of putting it in a tag, "What are we, Eve Players, willing to give up to draw in new players?" The MMO market is at saturation point. Eve needs margin to subsidize WoD and Dust development and do you honestly think that investors are keen on dumping money into a market where rampant layoffs are happening as MMO shops try to close margins in an industry, on this site alone, that has another 60+ titles in the queue? A stagnant, top heavy community is a house of cards waiting to fall apart. Spare us the ego in the discussion.
Eve isn't the only Sci-Fi MMO out there. Star Trek, Star Wars, and now yet-another-Star-Wars-IP is launching, consuming thousands of potential Eve customers. "We don't want them, they are n00bies" is the dumbest motherfucking mentality I have ever heard. Get off your HTFU high-horse people or you won't have an MMO to be an imaginary bad-ass in.
The GAME should be fun to play, accessable, and competitive from the start. Perhaps we should shit-can the CSMs to start with and start talking to non-Eve players and ask them what Eve is missing and what needs to be trimmed. Getting advice from pretty much 3 alliances posing as CSMs really hasn't done us a lot of good for enrollment based on the fact we have lagged the minimum inflation offset enrollment for the last 4 YEARS.
Seriously:
IF CCP IS ONLY MAKING $1 DOLLAR per account NET MARGIN (YES ONLY 1 fucking dollar for the sake of discussion)
That is roughly $300,000 a month or 3.6 million a year.
If inflation is 3% (I'm lowballing here people) that means each year (we'll skip the compounding for easy maths) that means $108,000 vanishes into inflation. CCP provides toilet paper, electricty, salaries, etc. Inflation hits companies harder then most non-business owners think.
At $108000 spread across 12 months that is $9000 a month lost in inflation across a year. HOW MUCH NET DO WE MAKE PER ACCOUNT? YEAH $1 in this discussion.
So with this, I'll let the naysayers do the math from here: "How many new accounts do you need each month to offset inflation, assuming they stay subscribed for 12 month.?"
The generally acceptable answer I have found is $9000 /12 = 750 a month. That is the high end (since 750 a month would raise the subscriptions enough to wash inflation (however you are lagging 12 months since those enrolling say in december don't wash the year's inflation till they clear 12 months).
450 (My estimate) is determined by the estimate of 1/4 new players will buy 2 plexes in the first year for some cash flow. Not factoring PLEX purchases it rises to 750 a month.
The number of needed enrollments is determined by the inflation rate, not the margin. At $5 net per subscription and 3% inflation it is still 750 (450) a month.
The difference is every time we fall short of the enrollment CCP's net margin per account shrinks. As you can see, you can go a long time before that margin disappears. The sad fact is, no matter what without growing your base MORE THEN WHAT IS NEEDED TO COVER INFLATION, you will eventually have 0 margin. Leaving CCP two options to improve or sustain margin: Raise subscription rates or cut costs. THEY JUST AXED 20% OF THEIR STAFF. That is cutting costs so we know whatever their margin is now, it is as low as they are willing to go. With WoD and Dust going on there is no reason to reduce staff save cost cutting.
The whole MMO industry is dealing with this. With as high a market saturation hitting that X accounts per month is only going to get harder. Dear Eve fanboi, with Star Wars TOR and 4 more sci-fi themed MMOs brewing what are we going to do to get, at minimum, 450 new subscribers every month? HTFU? That is the answer to 450 subscriptions? really?
If it is about social networking, charisma, and all that shit then I'd wager Eve would be a facebook app at this point. Ships blowing up Ships in space. We need a little more Wing Commander and a little less Sim Space Empire.
Make a choice Eve, we either soften-the-fuck-up and keep Eve going or you can continue to tell new players to HTFU and cater to 0.0 suber-blocks all the way to shut-down. 15 months is what I give CCP to turn it around. 15 months to get subs back up to sustainable levels.
If we as a player base tie CCP's hands and hold Eve's gameplay hostage because we want to be elitist hardcore assholes podding 3 mil skillpoint pilots in a tech-3 cruiser to make ourselves feel like bad-asses we are fucked. No pg-13 way to put it. We. Are. Fucked.
We need to think about what we can do to make Eve accessable to new players and adding new shit doesn't seem to work. The UI update may help but we need to take a, ironically, hard look at what we have to remove or change to improve Eve's new player experience and make it more accessable. If the CSMs weren't busy trying to figure out ways to make their alliances stronger and focus on getting new players we'd be in better shape. We are not. We are looking at becoming the next Hellgate or Asheron 2.
When a potential EVE-newbie asks about something, suddenly the players make it sound like EVE IS for everyone, like EVE doesn't take much time, like it's all awesome space battles etc.
Can you link to threads where EVE players are saying that? I'm not saying you are wrong, rather that I seem to be reading the exact opposite from EVE players - that it isn't for everyone, that it does take time to learn and get involved, and that it is more than just 'awesome space battles'. If EVE players are saying that, then I agree, it is misleading.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Grand_LC Take Vanguard, WoW, EQ, AC, AO... Whatever.. If you put time and effort into it, you will level fast and soon you'll be able to join the high levels and have some fun with them. If you're a casual player, you will level slower but you'll get there eventually. In EVE there's no real difference. ...Learning can be great fun.. In other games. In EVE it's just about reading guides etc. It seems like a lot of what makes you better in EVE is achieved by not actively playing the game, or like another person said, by watching movies, reading a book etc.
I can't add much to what Loktofeit already told you as he summed it well.
I clearly pointed out that EVE is NOT like Vanguard, WoW, EQ, AC, AO..., and what the main differences are - I even typed one of main differences in bold.
Yet you put it in the same bag and go on with your ranting.
Learning is very important but it seems you believe that reading guides will make you knowing the game and all, and your posts are even typed that way - no first hand experience, just making assumptions on something you have read or heard, or do not have sufficient knowledge about.
Yet, you are lecturing what EVE is and what is not and how it should be changed...
And as for misleading 'vets'... I asked you for quotes, twice. I even asked you if you think the achievements of new player I presented are laughable, 'snore fest' in your new post.
Yet, you did not provide a single answer, and in fact did not address any counter-point I came up with.
You won't learn much with your eyes and ears shut.
I am not working on a false assumption as I have played the game.
And this is the false assumption:
Originally posted by Grand_LCThey may come from WoW, EQ2 or whatever, so while this is in space, they're likely to assume that there are still a lot of similarities, as most other MMOs share a lot of things even if the games themselves are very different.
It does not matter whether the assumption is yours or someones else and you just 'working on'. The assumption is still false.
At this point, I am not sure about your concerns.
Could I understand that you say:
EVE is probably not broken and does not need to be changed mechanics wise, but I think it has to become more accessible in terms of guidance and information available to allow new players easier re-evaluation of their false assumptions based on other MMO games and their possible similarities with EVE Online.
It is difficult to grasp what you are trying to say as technically, all what you say is wrong.
I am not working on a false assumption as I have played the game.
And this is the false assumption:
Originally posted by Grand_LC
They may come from WoW, EQ2 or whatever, so while this is in space, they're likely to assume that there are still a lot of similarities, as most other MMOs share a lot of things even if the games themselves are very different.
It does not matter whether the assumption is yours or someones else and you just 'working on'. The assumption is still false.
At this point, I am not sure about your concerns.
Could I understand that you say:
EVE is probably not broken and does not need to be changed mechanics wise, but I think it has to become more accessible in terms of guidance and information available to allow new players easier re-evaluation of their false assumptions based on other MMO games and their possible similarities with EVE Online.
It is difficult to grasp what you are trying to say as technically, all what you say is wrong.
He says Eve isn't accessable to most MMO players. How is this wrong?
EvE's new direction with avatars walking around has fortunately stopped and now they're focusing on the important part again, which is spaceships.
The main-reason, why EvE is not appealing to most new players is, that most new players expect instant gratification and fast progression like they got to know from all the other MMOs outthere. I'm glad, that EvE isn't just a MMO like all these others and more dependent on groups, socializing and all that, what you usually dont find in MMOs like WoW, where you can grind through thte content completely solo and then use the LFG to find a raid.
New players in EvE need to socialize and find groups and that is the big reason, why EvE doesn't attract too many new players... most players don't want to socialize or be dependent on groups.
And for all those saying, that EvE-vets aren't helping the newcomers.... go check corps like EvE University, or the dozens of help-chats (one help-chat for every language), and even the chats of the starter-corps are full of vets answering questions. If you can't get help in EvE, then the problem is on your end I must assume.
EvE does not need a new direction, EvE only needs alot of allready existing stuff fixed and/or completed. Sov-mechanics, moon-goo, capitals, wormholes, mining and factional warfare, these are the real issues with EvE that need to be adressed, before anything new is done.
Oh... and like a Dev said sometime... "EvE is not ment to only look like a harsh and hostile universe, it's ment to feel like it aswell."
If you don't plan on playing EVE forever, (atleast for many years) then, there's almost no reason to play at all. The learning curve and progression system is based on a system that rewards players only after spending a certain amount of time progressing. Once that point has been reached, the game offers vast and in depth economy, and space battles of epic proportion. To be a substantial part in any of that, and not just a 'slave' to the controlling forces, you will be required to put in years of time and experience into the game, considering the minimal skillpoints prefered, as well as general knowledge of the game universe, AND a formidible reputation. These things combined are fantastic displays of a living community, however, unfortunately it simply takes large amounts of time (months/years) to reach that point. So, if you are just looking for some space fun, I'm affraid this game might not cut it. It takes a stern commitment and serious approach to gain any notable gratification in EVE.
In regards to the "new direction" CCP has taken, that direction was away from space and ships and towards aesthetics and and superficial features that don't effect gameplay AT ALL, while not putting much time and effort into improving the actual gameplay, and addressing unfinished features from expansions before (which, are still left unfinished) -- They have appologized for this, and backtracked their development, refocusing supposedly on the features the players want addressed. They fired 20% of their staff, and redirected resources to the upcoming console(PS3-ONLY) title Dust 514. In addition, their upcoming expansion peice focuses on capital ship balances (things you will not see or have anything to do with for at least a year of progression, as well as support from a large corporation(guild) or alliance that will help you fund, fuel, protect, and maintain such ships) -- The new player won't be directly effected by any of the changes short of the artistic updates such as engine and turret effects.
Please keep in mind the seriousness of how long it will take to partake in anything substantial in this game. It is no joke.
Also, again, if you do not plan on playing EVE for many years, it serves almost no purpose to play at all.
This is my biggest problem with EVE. The cost of entry into the real game in EVE is just too damned high. I know the hardcore EVE preople like it this way, and I can't say I blame them, but for CCP this must be costing them a lot of new subscribers. Hell it's bad enough jumping into older games like LOTRO, and you can't find a single person to do you epic story or class quests with. I can't even imagine looking at EVE and deciding to put a year or two into grindhouse playing before I even get a tiny glimpse of the best parts the game has to offer.
I respect it for what it is though, and I congratulate CCP for building this monument to originality in gaming. As much as I would love to jump in and play it, I just can't justify it.
This is 100% false. Please stop posting dung like this. You stated you have never played the game, and yet are making wildly inaccurate speculation. I have never played EQ. So should I post that it's impossible to do something in that game, or something is unattainable? That's called bullshit.
Example 1: I recruited a new player a little over 5 months ago. He wanted to get involved in wormholes and pvp. Fine. After reviewing what I thought he should train and insuring he understood my corps requirements..he began his path toward self reliance. He is now FC'ing low sec runs of his own, he is actively helping the corp and he is an eager participant on corp activities.
Did this take 1-2 years? No, it took active involvement from senior leadership, such as myself and he was an eager learner. He didn't tell me "how in WoW or LOTRO, this is how he did it.." no..he kept his yap shut and learned. When he died, he asked what he could have done better..he didn't complain..he learned. You would be better off joining the game, playing it and actively seeking out your own answers than making false claims.
Good luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
EvE's new direction with avatars walking around has fortunately stopped and now they're focusing on the important part again, which is spaceships.
The main-reason, why EvE is not appealing to most new players is, that most new players expect instant gratification and fast progression like they got to know from all the other MMOs outthere. I'm glad, that EvE isn't just a MMO like all these others and more dependent on groups, socializing and all that, what you usually dont find in MMOs like WoW, where you can grind through thte content completely solo and then use the LFG to find a raid.
New players in EvE need to socialize and find groups and that is the big reason, why EvE doesn't attract too many new players... most players don't want to socialize or be dependent on groups.
And for all those saying, that EvE-vets aren't helping the newcomers.... go check corps like EvE University, or the dozens of help-chats (one help-chat for every language), and even the chats of the starter-corps are full of vets answering questions.
If you can't get help in EvE, then the problem is on your end I must assume.
EvE does not need a new direction, EvE only needs alot of allready existing stuff fixed and/or completed. Sov-mechanics, moon-goo, capitals, wormholes, mining and factional warfare, these are the real issues with EvE that need to be adressed, before anything new is done.
Oh... and like a Dev said sometime... "EvE is not ment to only look like a harsh and hostile universe, it's ment to feel like it aswell."
HTFU
Rather bold assumptions there. Eve's largest problem apparently is Eve players think they are smarter and better then everyone else. With 300,000 subscribers they consistently think the other apx. 47 million other MMO players are idiots, socially inept children and some how incompetent because they don't play Eve. Arrogance and smug attitudes won't help Eve's sustainability, and certainly doesn't improve the community. Before spouting off HTFU you might want to GTFU first.
"If you can't get help in Eve, then the problem is on your end I must assume." That is one hell of a smug assumption kiddo. Seriously who would want to play an MMO if you are the typical player?
How about looking at the Eve Univeristy class schedules and realize a lot of people can't work real life around those class schedules? Perhaps look at what trial players say are the barriers to playing? Why not get off the HTFU high horse and take a look at life as a new player before calling them stupid? Your attitude is about as shitty as I've seen in this thread.
Here is a thought, grow up and quit assuming that every Non-Eve player is a moron, socially inept, and realize there just might be something wrong with getting new players involved in Eve rather then acting like a smug imaginary hard-ass that thinks everyone else is an idiot.
Originally posted by idgarad Originally posted by Yalexy EvE's new direction with avatars walking around has fortunately stopped and now they're focusing on the important part again, which is spaceships. The main-reason, why EvE is not appealing to most new players is, that most new players expect instant gratification and fast progression like they got to know from all the other MMOs outthere. I'm glad, that EvE isn't just a MMO like all these others and more dependent on groups, socializing and all that, what you usually dont find in MMOs like WoW, where you can grind through thte content completely solo and then use the LFG to find a raid. New players in EvE need to socialize and find groups and that is the big reason, why EvE doesn't attract too many new players... most players don't want to socialize or be dependent on groups. And for all those saying, that EvE-vets aren't helping the newcomers.... go check corps like EvE University, or the dozens of help-chats (one help-chat for every language), and even the chats of the starter-corps are full of vets answering questions. If you can't get help in EvE, then the problem is on your end I must assume. EvE does not need a new direction, EvE only needs alot of allready existing stuff fixed and/or completed. Sov-mechanics, moon-goo, capitals, wormholes, mining and factional warfare, these are the real issues with EvE that need to be adressed, before anything new is done. Oh... and like a Dev said sometime... "EvE is not ment to only look like a harsh and hostile universe, it's ment to feel like it aswell." HTFU
Rather bold assumptions there. Eve's largest problem apparently is Eve players think they are smarter and better then everyone else. With 300,000 subscribers they consistently think the other apx. 47 million other MMO players are idiots, socially inept children and some how incompetent because they don't play Eve. Arrogance and smug attitudes won't help Eve's sustainability, and certainly doesn't improve the community. Before spouting off HTFU you might want to GTFU first. "If you can't get help in Eve, then the problem is on your end I must assume." That is one hell of a smug assumption kiddo. Seriously who would want to play an MMO if you are the typical player? How about looking at the Eve Univeristy class schedules and realize a lot of people can't work real life around those class schedules? Perhaps look at what trial players say are the barriers to playing? Why not get off the HTFU high horse and take a look at life as a new player before calling them stupid? Your attitude is about as shitty as I've seen in this thread. Here is a thought, grow up and quit assuming that every Non-Eve player is a moron, socially inept, and realize there just might be something wrong with getting new players involved in Eve rather then acting like a smug imaginary hard-ass that thinks everyone else is an idiot.
Those 300k playing EvE are loving the game the way it is, and they don't want EvE to get watered down so it's more like those other MMOs. If you want to play something alike the other MMOs, then go play them instead and don't try to change to EvE, which does things differently on purpose.
Yes, those 300k might seem little compared to the other MMOs, but those 300k are more then enough players to populate New Eden and there's enough influx of new players to keep the game alive.
And speaking of my HTFU-attitude.... it's the attitude of CCP, as they don't want their game to be a happy fluffy bunny land. So either you like it the way it is, or you can GTFO. CCP won't change anything there.
I am not working on a false assumption as I have played the game.
And this is the false assumption:
Originally posted by Grand_LC
They may come from WoW, EQ2 or whatever, so while this is in space, they're likely to assume that there are still a lot of similarities, as most other MMOs share a lot of things even if the games themselves are very different.
It does not matter whether the assumption is yours or someones else and you just 'working on'. The assumption is still false.
At this point, I am not sure about your concerns.
Could I understand that you say:
EVE is probably not broken and does not need to be changed mechanics wise, but I think it has to become more accessible in terms of guidance and information available to allow new players easier re-evaluation of their false assumptions based on other MMO games and their possible similarities with EVE Online.
It is difficult to grasp what you are trying to say as technically, all what you say is wrong.
Yes, it is a wrong assumption, but I am still not the one working on it, as I have played the game. I am commenting on the assumption, not working on it. I am aware it is wrong, but a person who never played EVE has no way of knowing that, and you vets. sure as hell aren't making that clear to them. You do everything to lure/trick them to try the game, and then you wonder why they don't stick around once they realize it's all BS.
I have played most of the bigger MMOs out there, so I know that EVE isn't like the other ones I mentioned. But I only know that because I already played it! A new guy wanting to try EVE for the first time has no way of knowing that EVE really shouldn't be on the same website as the "real MMOs". It's like its own completely different genre.
What the hell is wrong with a lot of you EVE folks? Your player base is shrinking, CCP are getting rid of employees etc. and you still just pretend like everything is fine simply because you enjoy it yourself. Pretending won't stop the people from leaving. Ignoring a problem doesn't fix it, and the problem will just grow even bigger. Simply claiming that EVE has enough of an influx of new players, doesn't make it true. CCP had to lay off employees for a reason. There will probably always be plenty of free trial players asking questions, but most of those won't stay around after the trial, so they won't really help pay CCP's bills.
There's absolutely nothing in EVE atm. that will ever be able to get 450/750 (Read Idgarad's posts.) new players to stick around every month.
It's a "game" without interesting crafting, exploration, no exciting PvE, no sense of achievement within the first months and overall it has a terrible community. Those are some of the things MMO players usually vote for in "What do you look for in a MMO?" polls.
But I guess that's fine, cause the vets. like it. (Ignoring all the players quitting every month obviously.)
I am well aware of the EVE Univeristy, and I've never claimed that all EVE players are a-holes. The fact that EVE Uni. has some awesome people is THEIR achievement. Not the EVE population's in general. They're in no way a fair representation of the EVE community.
Yes, it is a wrong assumption, but I am still not the one working on it, as I have played the game. I am commenting on the assumption, not working on it. I am aware it is wrong, but a person who never played EVE has no way of knowing that, and you vets. sure as hell aren't making that clear to them. You do everything to lure/trick them to try the game, and then you wonder why they don't stick around once they realize it's all BS. I have played most of the bigger MMOs out there, so I know that EVE isn't like the other ones I mentioned. But I only know that because I already played it! A new guy wanting to try EVE for the first time has no way of knowing that EVE really shouldn't be on the same website as the "real MMOs". It's like its own completely different genre.
What the hell is wrong with a lot of you EVE folks? Your player base is shrinking, CCP are getting rid of employees etc. and you still just pretend like everything is fine simply because you enjoy it yourself. Pretending won't stop the people from leaving. Ignoring a problem doesn't fix it, and the problem will just grow even bigger. Simply claiming that EVE has enough of an influx of new players, doesn't make it true. CCP had to lay off employees for a reason. There will probably always be plenty of free trial players asking questions, but most of those won't stay around after the trial, so they won't really help pay CCP's bills. There's absolutely nothing in EVE atm. that will ever be able to get 450/750 (Read Idgarad's posts.) new players to stick around every month. It's a "game" without interesting crafting, exploration, no exciting PvE, no sense of achievement within the first months and overall it has a terrible community. Those are some of the things MMO players usually vote for in "What do you look for in a MMO?" polls. But I guess that's fine, cause the vets. like it. (Ignoring all the players quitting every month obviously.)
I am well aware of the EVE Univeristy, and I've never claimed that all EVE players are a-holes. The fact that EVE Uni. has some awesome people is THEIR achievement. Not the EVE population's in general. They're in no way a fair representation of the EVE community.
I see you are unable of any dialogue or constructive discussion, your eyes and ears are shut. It is like talking to a brick wall.
At least your concerns and motives got cleared out.
I don't actually know, where you get the impression from that EvE is losing lot's of players. The population of EvE is pretty much stable actually and CCP is not firing employees that are working on EvE, but they have only cut the staff that's working on WoD currently and shifted development to spaceships instead of Incarna.
Also. EvE is the same as it was for the last 7 years, and there was allways new players coming to EvE during that time, so I don't see, why there suddenly shouldn't be any new players trying EvE and stay with the game afterwards.
The whole discussion with you guys is leading nowhere, as you don't approach the subject from an objective POV, but only from your very personal, which unfortunately doens't match up with the objective analysis.
So, as I said before. The game might not be your cup of tea, but there's no problems actaually with EvE being the way it is in general.
A new pilot is given a frigate, some basic skills and a tiny amount of ISK to go about their business. It will take you about half a year-ish to become to very greatest frigate pilot there is and can be on paper. Your fitting and your knowledge of the game versus your enemies knowledge is what will decide the battle.
On your way to learning to become to greatest frigate pilot there can be you will no doubt gain by proxy other skills which will allow you to fly advanced frigates. Alot of the initial skills you learnt to pilot your chosen frigate will cross over to the advanced frigate.
Now you have a stealth bomber. One of the highest if not THE highest DPS output frigates. This tiny little ship can snare up much bigger ones and bring them down violently and quickly. It can fire bombs, a unique payload that deals massive damage. A squadron of them is a dangerous thing.
Now we have our lovely stealth bomber. It's everything we wanted. It's fast and dangerous and can kill alot of stuff.
Your outside a gate with your purifier, one of the best stealth bombers. You spot a victim in a badger, a hauling ship. You come out of stealth and begin your attack.
OHH NO! its bait - a two week old pilot in a hurricane with crap ass skills was stealthed up next to the badger and has warp scrambled, webbed and alpha'd our ship!
A new pilot is given a frigate, some basic skills and a tiny amount of ISK to go about their business. It will take you about half a year-ish to become to very greatest frigate pilot there is and can be on paper. Your fitting and your knowledge of the game versus your enemies knowledge is what will decide the battle.
On your way to learning to become to greatest frigate pilot there can be you will no doubt gain by proxy other skills which will allow you to fly advanced frigates. Alot of the initial skills you learnt to pilot your chosen frigate will cross over to the advanced frigate.
Now you have a stealth bomber. One of the highest if not THE highest DPS output frigates. This tiny little ship can snare up much bigger ones and bring them down violently and quickly. It can fire bombs, a unique payload that deals massive damage. A squadron of them is a dangerous thing.
Now we have our lovely stealth bomber. It's everything we wanted. It's fast and dangerous and can kill alot of stuff.
Your outside a gate with your purifier, one of the best stealth bombers. You spot a victim in a badger, a hauling ship. You come out of stealth and begin your attack.
OHH NO! its bait - a two week old pilot in a hurricane with crap ass skills was stealthed up next to the badger and has warp scrambled, webbed and alpha'd our ship!
You can be that two week old hurricane pilot...
Sorry but your little scenario would not happen that way. The hurricane would have a 5 second targetting delay (with Cloaking V) after uncloaking and then need another 3-6 seconds to lock you (depending on skill and fittings). If the SB pilot can't warp away in that time then he is either sleeping or incompetant.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by dave6660 Originally posted by Enerzeal A new pilot is given a frigate, some basic skills and a tiny amount of ISK to go about their business. It will take you about half a year-ish to become to very greatest frigate pilot there is and can be on paper. Your fitting and your knowledge of the game versus your enemies knowledge is what will decide the battle. On your way to learning to become to greatest frigate pilot there can be you will no doubt gain by proxy other skills which will allow you to fly advanced frigates. Alot of the initial skills you learnt to pilot your chosen frigate will cross over to the advanced frigate. Now you have a stealth bomber. One of the highest if not THE highest DPS output frigates. This tiny little ship can snare up much bigger ones and bring them down violently and quickly. It can fire bombs, a unique payload that deals massive damage. A squadron of them is a dangerous thing. Now we have our lovely stealth bomber. It's everything we wanted. It's fast and dangerous and can kill alot of stuff. Your outside a gate with your purifier, one of the best stealth bombers. You spot a victim in a badger, a hauling ship. You come out of stealth and begin your attack. OHH NO! its bait - a two week old pilot in a hurricane with crap ass skills was stealthed up next to the badger and has warp scrambled, webbed and alpha'd our ship! You can be that two week old hurricane pilot...
Sorry but your little scenario would not happen that way. The hurricane would have a 5 second targetting delay (with Cloaking V) after uncloaking and then need another 3-6 seconds to lock you (depending on skill and fittings). If the SB pilot can't warp away in that time then he is either sleeping or incompetant.
The Hurricane jumped through the gate with the bait-badger, but hold the cloak a little longer. No targeting-delay involved there.
But anyways... the basic idea of this story should get through.
Comments
Actually 1 is accurate. Without specific stats in the form of skills you cannot fit ships effectively. Without thermodynamics you cannnot overload a rack putting you at a severe disadvantage in 1 v 1 combat. Without Weapon Upgrades 5 many ship fits are out of reach without +3 or +5 implants for CPU and Energy. I'd like to see a rifter beat out a wolf 1v1 but that just doesn't happen unless the wolf pilot is afk. The difference for Ratting with 500,000 in shield skills versus 1 mil. The list goes on. You skills are the actual stats when you look at your ship as the actual character and the difference between someone having Energy Systems 3 vs 5 is night and day.
For #2 why is it every time I turn around some 50 mil skillpoint douche is telling new players that Eve is all about PvP but 3 seconds later someone posts about Eve isn't combat centric? So Cap rebalancing, Sov 0.0 mechanics fixes, Hybrid Turrents AND EVERY FUCKING THING THEY BRAG ABOUT THE WINTER EXPANSION isn't combat centric? Your right... I guess, but CCP and the other 99% seem to disagree.
"Eve is Real" vs "Eve is a game". "Eve is Real" will kill Eve online. Eve Online used to be a game, a game about ships in space. Only now, after 20% of their staff is gone do most of us realize we need to get back to Eve being a game. Everyone else that thinks "Eve is real" needs to be committed to a mental institution. Eve needs to grow. 450 accounts every month just to clear inflation (and that is assuming all 450 accounts become permanent players.)
Adding new shit doesn't attract new players. There is some much shit to do even 50 mil skillpoint players are finding new shit to do. Eve is being held back by stubborn, arrogant, and from what I can gather selfish assholes that would rather watch "Their Eve" crash and burn rather then make ANY concessions to bring in, and keep, new players.
We can't rely on Goonswarm n00b drives to draw in players. 3 accounts per player fueled by plex won't cut it either. PLEX inflation is telling us we don't have enough new players putting PLEX into the system to subsidize and catch up. Eventually the PLEX bubble pops and we risk mass-canellations (all those plex alts that don't get renewed). CCP dumping plex into the system just cuts even more out of what little net-margin they may have left.
I'm damn near the point of putting it in a tag, "What are we, Eve Players, willing to give up to draw in new players?" The MMO market is at saturation point. Eve needs margin to subsidize WoD and Dust development and do you honestly think that investors are keen on dumping money into a market where rampant layoffs are happening as MMO shops try to close margins in an industry, on this site alone, that has another 60+ titles in the queue? A stagnant, top heavy community is a house of cards waiting to fall apart. Spare us the ego in the discussion.
Eve isn't the only Sci-Fi MMO out there. Star Trek, Star Wars, and now yet-another-Star-Wars-IP is launching, consuming thousands of potential Eve customers. "We don't want them, they are n00bies" is the dumbest motherfucking mentality I have ever heard. Get off your HTFU high-horse people or you won't have an MMO to be an imaginary bad-ass in.
The GAME should be fun to play, accessable, and competitive from the start. Perhaps we should shit-can the CSMs to start with and start talking to non-Eve players and ask them what Eve is missing and what needs to be trimmed. Getting advice from pretty much 3 alliances posing as CSMs really hasn't done us a lot of good for enrollment based on the fact we have lagged the minimum inflation offset enrollment for the last 4 YEARS.
Seriously:
IF CCP IS ONLY MAKING $1 DOLLAR per account NET MARGIN (YES ONLY 1 fucking dollar for the sake of discussion)
That is roughly $300,000 a month or 3.6 million a year.
If inflation is 3% (I'm lowballing here people) that means each year (we'll skip the compounding for easy maths) that means $108,000 vanishes into inflation. CCP provides toilet paper, electricty, salaries, etc. Inflation hits companies harder then most non-business owners think.
At $108000 spread across 12 months that is $9000 a month lost in inflation across a year. HOW MUCH NET DO WE MAKE PER ACCOUNT? YEAH $1 in this discussion.
So with this, I'll let the naysayers do the math from here: "How many new accounts do you need each month to offset inflation, assuming they stay subscribed for 12 month.?"
The generally acceptable answer I have found is $9000 /12 = 750 a month. That is the high end (since 750 a month would raise the subscriptions enough to wash inflation (however you are lagging 12 months since those enrolling say in december don't wash the year's inflation till they clear 12 months).
450 (My estimate) is determined by the estimate of 1/4 new players will buy 2 plexes in the first year for some cash flow. Not factoring PLEX purchases it rises to 750 a month.
The number of needed enrollments is determined by the inflation rate, not the margin. At $5 net per subscription and 3% inflation it is still 750 (450) a month.
The difference is every time we fall short of the enrollment CCP's net margin per account shrinks. As you can see, you can go a long time before that margin disappears. The sad fact is, no matter what without growing your base MORE THEN WHAT IS NEEDED TO COVER INFLATION, you will eventually have 0 margin. Leaving CCP two options to improve or sustain margin: Raise subscription rates or cut costs. THEY JUST AXED 20% OF THEIR STAFF. That is cutting costs so we know whatever their margin is now, it is as low as they are willing to go. With WoD and Dust going on there is no reason to reduce staff save cost cutting.
The whole MMO industry is dealing with this. With as high a market saturation hitting that X accounts per month is only going to get harder. Dear Eve fanboi, with Star Wars TOR and 4 more sci-fi themed MMOs brewing what are we going to do to get, at minimum, 450 new subscribers every month? HTFU? That is the answer to 450 subscriptions? really?
If it is about social networking, charisma, and all that shit then I'd wager Eve would be a facebook app at this point. Ships blowing up Ships in space. We need a little more Wing Commander and a little less Sim Space Empire.
Make a choice Eve, we either soften-the-fuck-up and keep Eve going or you can continue to tell new players to HTFU and cater to 0.0 suber-blocks all the way to shut-down. 15 months is what I give CCP to turn it around. 15 months to get subs back up to sustainable levels.
If we as a player base tie CCP's hands and hold Eve's gameplay hostage because we want to be elitist hardcore assholes podding 3 mil skillpoint pilots in a tech-3 cruiser to make ourselves feel like bad-asses we are fucked. No pg-13 way to put it. We. Are. Fucked.
We need to think about what we can do to make Eve accessable to new players and adding new shit doesn't seem to work. The UI update may help but we need to take a, ironically, hard look at what we have to remove or change to improve Eve's new player experience and make it more accessable. If the CSMs weren't busy trying to figure out ways to make their alliances stronger and focus on getting new players we'd be in better shape. We are not. We are looking at becoming the next Hellgate or Asheron 2.
"Eve is real" will kill Eve.
Can you link to threads where EVE players are saying that? I'm not saying you are wrong, rather that I seem to be reading the exact opposite from EVE players - that it isn't for everyone, that it does take time to learn and get involved, and that it is more than just 'awesome space battles'. If EVE players are saying that, then I agree, it is misleading.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can't add much to what Loktofeit already told you as he summed it well.
I clearly pointed out that EVE is NOT like Vanguard, WoW, EQ, AC, AO..., and what the main differences are - I even typed one of main differences in bold.
Yet you put it in the same bag and go on with your ranting.
Learning is very important but it seems you believe that reading guides will make you knowing the game and all, and your posts are even typed that way - no first hand experience, just making assumptions on something you have read or heard, or do not have sufficient knowledge about.
Yet, you are lecturing what EVE is and what is not and how it should be changed...
And as for misleading 'vets'... I asked you for quotes, twice. I even asked you if you think the achievements of new player I presented are laughable, 'snore fest' in your new post.
Yet, you did not provide a single answer, and in fact did not address any counter-point I came up with.
You won't learn much with your eyes and ears shut.
And this is the false assumption:
It does not matter whether the assumption is yours or someones else and you just 'working on'. The assumption is still false.
At this point, I am not sure about your concerns.
Could I understand that you say:
EVE is probably not broken and does not need to be changed mechanics wise, but I think it has to become more accessible in terms of guidance and information available to allow new players easier re-evaluation of their false assumptions based on other MMO games and their possible similarities with EVE Online.
It is difficult to grasp what you are trying to say as technically, all what you say is wrong.
He says Eve isn't accessable to most MMO players. How is this wrong?
EvE's new direction with avatars walking around has fortunately stopped and now they're focusing on the important part again, which is spaceships.
The main-reason, why EvE is not appealing to most new players is, that most new players expect instant gratification and fast progression like they got to know from all the other MMOs outthere. I'm glad, that EvE isn't just a MMO like all these others and more dependent on groups, socializing and all that, what you usually dont find in MMOs like WoW, where you can grind through thte content completely solo and then use the LFG to find a raid.
New players in EvE need to socialize and find groups and that is the big reason, why EvE doesn't attract too many new players... most players don't want to socialize or be dependent on groups.
And for all those saying, that EvE-vets aren't helping the newcomers.... go check corps like EvE University, or the dozens of help-chats (one help-chat for every language), and even the chats of the starter-corps are full of vets answering questions.
If you can't get help in EvE, then the problem is on your end I must assume.
EvE does not need a new direction, EvE only needs alot of allready existing stuff fixed and/or completed. Sov-mechanics, moon-goo, capitals, wormholes, mining and factional warfare, these are the real issues with EvE that need to be adressed, before anything new is done.
Oh... and like a Dev said sometime... "EvE is not ment to only look like a harsh and hostile universe, it's ment to feel like it aswell."
HTFU
This is 100% false. Please stop posting dung like this. You stated you have never played the game, and yet are making wildly inaccurate speculation. I have never played EQ. So should I post that it's impossible to do something in that game, or something is unattainable? That's called bullshit.
Example 1: I recruited a new player a little over 5 months ago. He wanted to get involved in wormholes and pvp. Fine. After reviewing what I thought he should train and insuring he understood my corps requirements..he began his path toward self reliance. He is now FC'ing low sec runs of his own, he is actively helping the corp and he is an eager participant on corp activities.
Did this take 1-2 years? No, it took active involvement from senior leadership, such as myself and he was an eager learner. He didn't tell me "how in WoW or LOTRO, this is how he did it.." no..he kept his yap shut and learned. When he died, he asked what he could have done better..he didn't complain..he learned. You would be better off joining the game, playing it and actively seeking out your own answers than making false claims.
Good luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Oh no I am not interested in that. Thought you were referring to the item shop.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Rather bold assumptions there. Eve's largest problem apparently is Eve players think they are smarter and better then everyone else. With 300,000 subscribers they consistently think the other apx. 47 million other MMO players are idiots, socially inept children and some how incompetent because they don't play Eve. Arrogance and smug attitudes won't help Eve's sustainability, and certainly doesn't improve the community. Before spouting off HTFU you might want to GTFU first.
"If you can't get help in Eve, then the problem is on your end I must assume." That is one hell of a smug assumption kiddo. Seriously who would want to play an MMO if you are the typical player?
How about looking at the Eve Univeristy class schedules and realize a lot of people can't work real life around those class schedules? Perhaps look at what trial players say are the barriers to playing? Why not get off the HTFU high horse and take a look at life as a new player before calling them stupid? Your attitude is about as shitty as I've seen in this thread.
Here is a thought, grow up and quit assuming that every Non-Eve player is a moron, socially inept, and realize there just might be something wrong with getting new players involved in Eve rather then acting like a smug imaginary hard-ass that thinks everyone else is an idiot.
"If you can't get help in Eve, then the problem is on your end I must assume." That is one hell of a smug assumption kiddo. Seriously who would want to play an MMO if you are the typical player?
How about looking at the Eve Univeristy class schedules and realize a lot of people can't work real life around those class schedules? Perhaps look at what trial players say are the barriers to playing? Why not get off the HTFU high horse and take a look at life as a new player before calling them stupid? Your attitude is about as shitty as I've seen in this thread.
Here is a thought, grow up and quit assuming that every Non-Eve player is a moron, socially inept, and realize there just might be something wrong with getting new players involved in Eve rather then acting like a smug imaginary hard-ass that thinks everyone else is an idiot.
Those 300k playing EvE are loving the game the way it is, and they don't want EvE to get watered down so it's more like those other MMOs. If you want to play something alike the other MMOs, then go play them instead and don't try to change to EvE, which does things differently on purpose.
Yes, those 300k might seem little compared to the other MMOs, but those 300k are more then enough players to populate New Eden and there's enough influx of new players to keep the game alive.
And speaking of my HTFU-attitude.... it's the attitude of CCP, as they don't want their game to be a happy fluffy bunny land. So either you like it the way it is, or you can GTFO. CCP won't change anything there.
Yes, it is a wrong assumption, but I am still not the one working on it, as I have played the game. I am commenting on the assumption, not working on it. I am aware it is wrong, but a person who never played EVE has no way of knowing that, and you vets. sure as hell aren't making that clear to them. You do everything to lure/trick them to try the game, and then you wonder why they don't stick around once they realize it's all BS.
I have played most of the bigger MMOs out there, so I know that EVE isn't like the other ones I mentioned. But I only know that because I already played it! A new guy wanting to try EVE for the first time has no way of knowing that EVE really shouldn't be on the same website as the "real MMOs". It's like its own completely different genre.
What the hell is wrong with a lot of you EVE folks? Your player base is shrinking, CCP are getting rid of employees etc. and you still just pretend like everything is fine simply because you enjoy it yourself. Pretending won't stop the people from leaving. Ignoring a problem doesn't fix it, and the problem will just grow even bigger. Simply claiming that EVE has enough of an influx of new players, doesn't make it true. CCP had to lay off employees for a reason. There will probably always be plenty of free trial players asking questions, but most of those won't stay around after the trial, so they won't really help pay CCP's bills.
There's absolutely nothing in EVE atm. that will ever be able to get 450/750 (Read Idgarad's posts.) new players to stick around every month.
It's a "game" without interesting crafting, exploration, no exciting PvE, no sense of achievement within the first months and overall it has a terrible community. Those are some of the things MMO players usually vote for in "What do you look for in a MMO?" polls.
But I guess that's fine, cause the vets. like it. (Ignoring all the players quitting every month obviously.)
I am well aware of the EVE Univeristy, and I've never claimed that all EVE players are a-holes. The fact that EVE Uni. has some awesome people is THEIR achievement. Not the EVE population's in general. They're in no way a fair representation of the EVE community.
I see you are unable of any dialogue or constructive discussion, your eyes and ears are shut. It is like talking to a brick wall.
At least your concerns and motives got cleared out.
Fly safe.
I don't actually know, where you get the impression from that EvE is losing lot's of players. The population of EvE is pretty much stable actually and CCP is not firing employees that are working on EvE, but they have only cut the staff that's working on WoD currently and shifted development to spaceships instead of Incarna.
Also. EvE is the same as it was for the last 7 years, and there was allways new players coming to EvE during that time, so I don't see, why there suddenly shouldn't be any new players trying EvE and stay with the game afterwards.
The whole discussion with you guys is leading nowhere, as you don't approach the subject from an objective POV, but only from your very personal, which unfortunately doens't match up with the objective analysis.
So, as I said before. The game might not be your cup of tea, but there's no problems actaually with EvE being the way it is in general.
A new pilot is given a frigate, some basic skills and a tiny amount of ISK to go about their business. It will take you about half a year-ish to become to very greatest frigate pilot there is and can be on paper. Your fitting and your knowledge of the game versus your enemies knowledge is what will decide the battle.
On your way to learning to become to greatest frigate pilot there can be you will no doubt gain by proxy other skills which will allow you to fly advanced frigates. Alot of the initial skills you learnt to pilot your chosen frigate will cross over to the advanced frigate.
Now you have a stealth bomber. One of the highest if not THE highest DPS output frigates. This tiny little ship can snare up much bigger ones and bring them down violently and quickly. It can fire bombs, a unique payload that deals massive damage. A squadron of them is a dangerous thing.
Now we have our lovely stealth bomber. It's everything we wanted. It's fast and dangerous and can kill alot of stuff.
Your outside a gate with your purifier, one of the best stealth bombers. You spot a victim in a badger, a hauling ship. You come out of stealth and begin your attack.
OHH NO! its bait - a two week old pilot in a hurricane with crap ass skills was stealthed up next to the badger and has warp scrambled, webbed and alpha'd our ship!
You can be that two week old hurricane pilot...
Sorry but your little scenario would not happen that way. The hurricane would have a 5 second targetting delay (with Cloaking V) after uncloaking and then need another 3-6 seconds to lock you (depending on skill and fittings). If the SB pilot can't warp away in that time then he is either sleeping or incompetant.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
The Hurricane jumped through the gate with the bait-badger, but hold the cloak a little longer. No targeting-delay involved there.
But anyways... the basic idea of this story should get through.