F2P is not for the ADD crowd. It's not for those who need everything NOW. It's not for those who aren't willing to trade the cash for grind. It's not for those who feel that games that charge every month just for the privilege of playing said game are so superior. And it's not for people who just plain want to disparage F2P games (by the way, B2P games are NOT F2P regardless of what some GW haters would have you think).
If you don't want to play F2P games, then don't. If you think that F2P games somehow rip you off more than P2P games, don't play them. Why do you feel the need to constantly disparage them? Go sit on your high horse paying your monthly fee and leave those who want to play F2P games alone.
BTW, yes, they are FREE to PLAY. They are not FREE to PLAY WITH EVERY AVAILABLE OPTION. They are not FREE TO OWN EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN PVP FROM DAY 1. There is no deception except the deception of your expectations.
That expectation being that a free to play game would actually be free to play?
Oops, my bad. I was clearly WAY OFF with my expectation there.
You are way off in your expectation if you think free to play should mean free to play with every available option in the game. If you can play a game for free where you can get to end game without having to buy anything else, then it's free to play. Notice I didn't say that you can get to end game in an easy fashion, or a quick fashion. In most F2P games, you are definitely able to get to end game without paying a dime. It's just not easy, or quick. You will have to grind. It will probably take you twice the time to get to end game than those who break their bank to be "competitive".
Your expectation (and that of many others in this forum) is that F2P means that you can get through the game as easily or as quickly as someone who dishes out money to the cash shop. That is where your deception is. F2P games aren't intended to be that way. Yes, devs want you to spend money, but they are taking the risk that you won't. That doesn't mean they should provide you with an easy, quick way to end game for free.
the point I wa trying to make is that free to play isn't free, not that games hsould be, just that it is false advertizing.
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
That's bad F2P design, yes.
League of Legends Pizza Company's model is this:
They offer very delicious pizzas.
There are over 60 flavors of pizza
If you don't pay, you can always have one of the 10 rotating flavors of free pizza (this week it's peperoni, hawaiin, and meatlover's)
Next week a different set of flavors will be free.
If you pay, you can permanently always have pepperoni whenever you want.
Good F2P design is the future, because it's win-win for developers and customers. Although arguably the first bullet point -- a quality product -- is far more important than the payment model.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Free to play, is a fantastic concept, if done properly.
The way I always thought the way free to play should be is
-Everyone gets to play ALL CONTENT free.
-Players that spend money in cashshop should only be given the option to buy appearance type items and boosts to things like exp gain, item drops, crafting.
- There should never be armor or weapons in a cash shop, unless it changes appearance only, never stats.
This way there is a balance, players can't just buy the best weapon, sure players that spend more will be able to advance quicker, but they can't buy the way to the end of the game.
just my $0.02
This is getting at the heart of it. There is a way to do F2P right. Just that most don't to a greater or lesser degree. Here in the west we are also hampered in that virtually none of the big companies that have shifted in this direction have done it right. Take a look at what PA has put together on the topic. They are "getting it". If you are going to have a free to play game you have to be ok with some people playing for free. Great line. An yes it is an MMO so players are also content. non-paying players are not the enemy they are part of the reason that paying players are willing to stick around.
When it is done right they should be selling convenience and vanity items. And yes, exp boosts are just convenience items since blowing though the game at 2 or 3 times speed is not winning it is simply altering the timeframe in which you get to the parts you want, like the endgame.
And to your third point, exactly correct. "NEVER SELL POWER!!!" Golden rule of F2P. I think that the other rule should be "never sell anything that cannot be otherwise gotten within the game" If the only way to get the sword of uber is by buying it from the cash shop then you have failed. If the only way to get the uber buff is by purchasing a potion of uber then you have failed. It is fine to sell a 2 hr double exp potion because a person still has the choice to simply grind boars for 4 hours rather than just 2. Selling a bundle of 20 herbs on the cash shop is fine if you can also simply spend an hour or two gathering the same 20 herbs somewhere in game. Replacing time with money is fine when it is done reasonably. selling a shining orb of f-yeah for $10 that is a requirement in crafting the sword of uber instead of trying to farm the orb off the only purple sprite that spawns in the endless forest which is a rare, once a week spawn and still only has a .01% chance of dropping the orb is still evil. Sure, you can, in theory farm the orb but in practice you still essentially have to buy it and therefore the sword of uber is still for all reasonable purposes a cash shop only, must have endgame item.
In the end it a it comes down to companies realizing that they don't have to make money off everyone. It is good enough to make your money off only those who can afford it and are willing to redeem some of their time with cash. I cannot remember the source but I read about a recent study that confirmed what many people already knew, that older players with families and jobs spend more than younger players with more free time. Go figure. It is true, some people will spend a bit on convienence if you price it reasonably and don't force it on them.
If they did, it wouldn't be deceptive. They could call it "free to access."
As it stands, they do not.
Originally posted by ElderRat
then it should be "Free to download" not Free to play.
No, it should not. It is perfectly fine the way it is. Again, you are disagreeing with your own error on what the term means.
They indeed provide a game that has no upfront payment unlike P2P model thus it is no myth nor it is deceptive. It is just insisting on your very own misconceptions.
free means free not pay for some, no error in my perception, the error is in what they advertize being not true. F2P has pay options for you to get the whole game. No game is free to play in it's entirety. If they say free and it is not all free then they are not telling the truth. I do not care if you think that they are, they are not. It is not fine that we let people redefine words like free.
If they did, it wouldn't be deceptive. They could call it "free to access."
As it stands, they do not.
Originally posted by ElderRat
then it should be "Free to download" not Free to play.
No, it should not. It is perfectly fine the way it is. Again, you are disagreeing with your own error on what the term means.
They indeed provide a game that has no upfront payment unlike P2P model thus it is no myth nor it is deceptive. It is just insisting on your very own misconceptions.
Honestly...I really don't know why you and others are defending a practice that is OBVIOUSLY deceptive. The fact that we are all weathered enough to realize that F2P is a load of crap does not excuse the fact that it is deceptive.
If I have a box of cupcakes and tell you they are free to eat but then tell you that you can't eat the frosting without paying...then isn't that deceptive? Isn't this also EXACTLY what F2P games do?
It is kind of confusing. Even when people suggest alternate terms - it does not take long before it breaks down in to folks tossing flaming kittens at each other. Yet, alternate terms would eliminate so much of the debate that rages on about them.
B2P - buy to play. There is no subscription. Though, this does not mean there will not be expansions, that there will not be DLC, nor that there will not be some form of item shop involved...does it?
P2P - pay to play. There is a subscription. Though, this does not mean you have to buy the original software. Sometimes it is free and you just pay the monthly sub. Again, this does not mean that there may not be expansions, DLC, nor an item shop.
F2P...F2P...F2P... what differentiates the term? It definitely comes down to how you look at it.
F2P - you do not have to buy the software like you do with B2P.
F2P - you do not have to pay a montly sub like you do with P2P.
F2P - usually means there will be some form of paid expansion, there will be paid DLC, and there will be a cash shop.
Then we get into some subjective things:
B2P - games are designed so you do not spend as much time playing them. It is not cost effective for you to play a lot. They basically got a fixed amount out of you unless you buy expansions, DLC, item shop stuff.
P2P - games are designed so you play in chunks, but you have to play in a lot of chunks - so you continue to pay your sub. Once again, the more you play - the less cost effective you are - the longer you play over a period of time on the other hand...
F2P - games are designed so you spend a lot of time in the cash shop. You did not pay anything for the game, so they did not get any revenue from you there. You are not paying a sub for the bame, so they are not getting any revenue from you there. They are still a business and need to generate revenue and turn a profit.
Thus... F2P games are really just a form of P2P with an alternative payment method...no?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
Your analogy shows your misconception about F2P games. A more proper analogy would be closer to this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, I'm only giving away a cheese pizza. If you want extra toppings, you will have to pay for each topping. If you don't want to pay for those toppings, then you can don an apron and go chop up the pepperoni, sausage, onions, olives, etc.
So, in my example, you get the most basic version of the pizza (game) for free. If you want extra toppings (side quests, cosmetics, mounts, etc.) then you either have to buy them or work for them.
That is how the vast majority of F2P games out there work. It's not a deceptive practice to call it what it is only to have other people overlay their assumptions on it.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Free to Play is just that, you can play for free. The cash shop is there to get you to spend money on it. The money has to come from somewhere. So if all you want to do is play, then yes, you can play for free. If you want to be competitive, then naturally you'll have to pay something, well quite a lot actually. Then again, a sub game will have you pay for the box first, then you might discover that the game isn't all that great. Only the box price lost, still it's the box price, something that you won't have to pay for a F2P game.
While a lot of F2P games do the cash shop in a "bad" way, I don't see why it should have to be a "bad" business model. Many sub games cry for new players, F2P players will always have new players to check out the scenery. They could hand out trials, but F2P does have an appeal, even if later on you find that it would cost you too much to play it ay the level you'd like.
If they did, it wouldn't be deceptive. They could call it "free to access."
As it stands, they do not.
Originally posted by ElderRat
then it should be "Free to download" not Free to play.
No, it should not. It is perfectly fine the way it is. Again, you are disagreeing with your own error on what the term means.
They indeed provide a game that has no upfront payment unlike P2P model thus it is no myth nor it is deceptive. It is just insisting on your very own misconceptions.
Honestly...I really don't know why you and others are defending a practice that is OBVIOUSLY deceptive. The fact that we are all weathered enough to realize that F2P is a load of crap does not excuse the fact that it is deceptive.
If I have a box of cupcakes and tell you they are free to eat but then tell you that you can't eat the frosting without paying...then isn't that deceptive? Isn't this also EXACTLY what F2P games do?
It is kind of confusing. Even when people suggest alternate terms - it does not take long before it breaks down in to folks tossing flaming kittens at each other. Yet, alternate terms would eliminate so much of the debate that rages on about them.
B2P - buy to play. There is no subscription. Though, this does not mean there will not be expansions, that there will not be DLC, nor that there will not be some form of item shop involved...does it?
P2P - pay to play. There is a subscription. Though, this does not mean you have to buy the original software. Sometimes it is free and you just pay the monthly sub. Again, this does not mean that there may not be expansions, DLC, nor an item shop.
F2P...F2P...F2P... what differentiates the term? It definitely comes down to how you look at it.
F2P - you do not have to buy the software like you do with B2P.
F2P - you do not have to pay a montly sub like you do with P2P.
F2P - usually means there will be some form of paid expansion, there will be paid DLC, and there will be a cash shop.
Then we get into some subjective things:
B2P - games are designed so you do not spend as much time playing them. It is not cost effective for you to play a lot. They basically got a fixed amount out of you unless you buy expansions, DLC, item shop stuff.
P2P - games are designed so you play in chunks, but you have to play in a lot of chunks - so you continue to pay your sub. Once again, the more you play - the less cost effective you are - the longer you play over a period of time on the other hand...
F2P - games are designed so you spend a lot of time in the cash shop. You did not pay anything for the game, so they did not get any revenue from you there. You are not paying a sub for the bame, so they are not getting any revenue from you there. They are still a business and need to generate revenue and turn a profit.
Thus... F2P games are really just a form of P2P with an alternative payment method...no?
Nice breakdown, Virus. I would agree that F2P games, the way they are used by most players, are just a form of P2P with an alternative payment method. However, just because they are used my many players that way, doesn't mean that the F2P label is inaccurate. That would be like saying that a pizza place that gives away cheese pizzas for free is deceptive in saying they have free pizza if most people decide to pay to add toppings to the free cheese pizza. It's not deceptive or inaccurate, it's that the customers use it in a way that ends up costing them money.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
There is no such animal called "free". There is always a cost associated with creating, maintaining, and continued development of a product, culture, or a country. In this case an MMO. You are able to play an MMO w/o paying but there there is a cost of server maintence, employees, electricity, bandwith, janitors, advertisement, rent, suppllies, etc etc. They have to get the cash from somewhere via different outlets. Nothing is "free".
What they should say is restricted Play not F2P, but that wouldnt "sell" well would it...LOL!
***Raving Rabbid eagerly awaits Underworld 4 with the hot and delicious Kate Beckensale!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Nice breakdown, Virus. I would agree that F2P games, the way they are used by most players, are just a form of P2P with an alternative payment method. However, just because they are used my many players that way, doesn't mean that the F2P label is inaccurate. That would be like saying that a pizza place that gives away cheese pizzas for free is deceptive in saying they have free pizza if most people decide to pay to add toppings to the free cheese pizza. It's not deceptive or inaccurate, it's that the customers use it in a way that ends up costing them money.
It gets very difficult, in discussing the deceptive part. It becomes very subjective. Using the pizza analogy though, one can ignore the possible ethical/moral/marketing side and go with the concrete.
You even touched upon it previously in other posts in the thread.
Papa Smurf's Pizza is offering free dine-in pizza this Sunday night for the Steelers v. Ravens game. They've got a bunch of big screen TVs, so how about you come on down and enjoy some free pizza while watching the game! (limit 1 free cheese pizza per party)
You get to Papa Smurf's Pizza with a group of friends - a mix of excited Steelers and Ravens fans. You get a great big booth with an awesome view of the game. You order the free pizza...and order a mix of drinks, both soda and beer. You really don't think about the cost of the soda or the beer. Both are massively overpriced and high profit items for the pizzeria (much like they are for any restaurant type establishment). They're already ahead on profit just from you ordering beverages to go with the free pizza.
The pizza comes. Well Hell, there's too many of you guys for that pizza to feed. So you order more pizzas, pizzas with toppings, etc. Papa Smurf's profits are starting to look pretty good here - based on getting you into the pizzeria with the offer of the free pizza. So while you're there, enjoying the game - socializing - having fun with your friends, enjoying the rivalry, and all that - well, you're going to order more drinks. You're going to order more food - wings, cheese sticks, chili fries, all those great football watching foods. Food's going to be salty...you're going to be thirsty. More drinks. Heck, more pitchers. Though they never seem to have enough in them for anybody - they've got to be cheaper than by the glass, right? Nope.
They made a nice profit, no? And that's the concrete...
...back to the subjective a bit then though:
So did Papa Smurf's lie about the free pizza? Nope. You got the 1 free cheese pizza per party. Did you end up spending a lot of money when all was said and done? Yep. Is that deceptive? Would the reasonable person seeing a thing about a free pizza think that they're getting a free meal? Obviously the pizza is not going to be enough to feed everybody. Obviously the drinks are not going to be free. C'mon, that should be obvious...right?
It's marketing. You're playing on the fact that somebody will see free...want free...and end up spending more money. So yes, it is a very deceptive practice. There are people that recognize the marketing for what it is and ignore it. There will be the people in the case of Papa Smurf's deal that will go in... order the pizza, no drinks, eat it, and leave. Those people are in the minority. The business knows that can happen. They're counting on the people I outlined in the narration above...
So while you may play a F2P game without spending a dime or perhaps a few nickels and dimes; you're not the target audience for the F2P model. You're the accepted risk - the minimum risk. They're looking at getting the people in the door that are going to shell out the cash...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
Now that is a great analogy.
It will surely be picked apart as all analogies are when it comes to mmorpg.com'ers. Nonetheless, this F2P "Twilight Zone" phenomena is a dangerous cancer for our genre and it still amazes that so many people fall for it (all with a fucking cheek to cheek smile). This payment model is great for business, but terrible for the consumer. It's never a good sign when people start accepting less for more.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
I don't think that's exactly true. Or a good analogy.
I've never played a f2p game where I couldn't eat the whole pizza. I HAVE played f2p games where they would eventually only let me take a bite every 10 minutes.
Oh, I"m sure there must be some f2p games that cut out a good portion of the game unless you pay but I've never experienced any of them.
You can keep playing for free but if you want to level at the exact rate as someone who is willing to drop money or perhaps bypass a death penalty then you need to pay some money. Otherwise you can log in and play until you don't want to and log off.
They are free to play games. They are "free to play". They aren't "free to play at the same rate as paying customers". And that is the difference.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
First, in response to the OP, it's not a myth. F2P is free to play. They are not promising a casual free ride to end game or the top of their PvP ladder. They just promise that you can play the game for free.
Now, in response to the quoted post: your analogy is off. It's not like, "Free pizza... oh no wait, only free crust!"
F2P is like free TV. Like you put up rabbit ears and only watch the channels that are broadcast on airwaves. No one is promising you cable channels. You're not going to get AMC, HBO, On Demand, Pay Per View, or any of that ilk on your rabbit ears. You're only going to get what is broadcast for free on airwaves. Everyone knows it and that's why no one complains when they put up rabbit ears and don't get HBO.
It's the same with F2P games. Go to their website and they will tell you what you will get for free and what you will have to pay for. You then have the opportunity to play what you can for free, if you want, or pay to get the full ride.
Stop blaming them for you thinking they should go into bankruptcy to give you a truly free AAA MMO to play 100% of.
I, like the OP, am not asking that companies give us AAA content absolutely free...we are only arguing that F2P is a deceptive marketing practice. If they called these games "pay a la carte" then I would have no problem with them.
As for your analogy...I think there is a flaw with it. A TV is a piece of hardware, you buy it from stores like Best Buy or Walmart. TV channels are MEDIA, you buy them from from cable/dish companies like Comcast or Dish Network. It is pretty obvious that buying a piece of hardware does not entitle you to every piece of media it can play. No one ever says this, if you think this is how it is, it's because you made it up. This is like thinking if you buy a computer you get every computer game along with it...
F2P is completely different. F2P is specifically talking about a GAME that is free to play. One would expect that the GAME that F2P is referring to, would actually be free to play. You can't just arbitrarily divide it into chunks after the sale and say "well these are free but these aren't."
If it was advertised like that, it would be a different story. If the game said "World of Warcraft, first 20 levels are free to play!" Then that's fine...it's not deceptive. You can play up to level 20 for free, then you have to pay...just like the ad said.
But if it said "World of Warcraft, free to play!!!" Then it WOULD be deceptive if you had to pay after level 20...
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
I don't think that's exactly true. Or a good analogy.
I've never played a f2p game where I couldn't eat the whole pizza. I HAVE played f2p games where they would eventually only let me take a bite every 10 minutes.
Oh, I"m sure there must be some f2p games that cut out a good portion of the game unless you pay but I've never experienced any of them.
You can keep playing for free but if you want to level at the exact rate as someone who is willing to drop money or perhaps bypass a death penalty then you need to pay some money. Otherwise you can log in and play until you don't want to and log off.
They are free to play games. They are "free to play". They aren't "free to play at the same rate as paying customers". And that is the difference.
You are correct in that the analogy only applies to certain F2P games. It applies to games where it is free to play PART of the game, but you have to buy the rest (like DDO, as I understand). It does not apply to games that are "pay to skip" where you can buy exp potions to bypass a painful grind.
But IMO, those games are even worse. Because they are specifically designed to have painful grinds so that people will want to pay to skip them.
You are correct in that the analogy only applies to certain F2P games. It applies to games where it is free to play PART of the game, but you have to buy the rest (like DDO, as I understand). It does not apply to games that are "pay to skip" where you can buy exp potions to bypass a painful grind.
But IMO, those games are even worse. Because they are specifically designed to have painful grinds so that people will want to pay to skip them.
Well, the weirdness of DDO, if it runs like lotro; which I think it does, is that eventually you get the currency trickling in and can purchase extra quests.
So "yes" you can't do all the quests right off the bat because some of them require a purchase. However, if you feel like hanging around and doing the what you can do for a bit then eventually you can purchase more. also, I believe, like lotro, if you buy one thing in the store you then get a small monthly allotment of points to, er, "take the edge off".
The issue would be where there is no choice, you either pay or you never, ever can enter an area. In which case then the game is free to play, meaning you can play it for no money, but you can't play the "whole thing" for free. Which would suck and not be worth it.
As far as grinds go, that's subjective. Still the point is well made in that you would have to repeat things over and over and that's just bad game design.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
First, I seriously hope you're wrong and this isn't the future of MMO's.
Second, I completely agree that F2P is very deceptive. The business model behind F2P games is basically like this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, you only get to eat the CRUST for free. If you want to eat the rest of the pizza...then that's going to cost you. You can either pay $20 or you can run around the city 20 times and you can have the pizza.
Just like in my pizza example, a F2P game really isn't free. You get to play "part" of the game for free, but if you want to play the rest you either have to pay money or do a ridiculous amount of menial things (grinding) to get there.
So I really don't think they should be called F2P games. They should be called something like "Choose to pay" or "a la carte" to reflect the fact that you can pick and choose what features or cheats you want to buy.
Your analogy shows your misconception about F2P games. A more proper analogy would be closer to this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, I'm only giving away a cheese pizza. If you want extra toppings, you will have to pay for each topping. If you don't want to pay for those toppings, then you can don an apron and go chop up the pepperoni, sausage, onions, olives, etc.
So, in my example, you get the most basic version of the pizza (game) for free. If you want extra toppings (side quests, cosmetics, mounts, etc.) then you either have to buy them or work for them.
That is how the vast majority of F2P games out there work. It's not a deceptive practice to call it what it is only to have other people overlay their assumptions on it.
I don't think your analogy is better...
In your example, the guy just said "Free pizza" but never specified that it was pepperoni. The guys assumed it was pepperoni...so the advertising wasn't deceptive.
This isn't how F2P works...
F2P games are advertised as being FREE...period. And most people view games (unlike pizza) as being atomic. You buy the game, you get the game. You don't buy levels 1-20 of a game at Gamestop...you buy the game. And if you bought a game and only got levels 1-20...that would be deceptive.
Publishers are trying to change how people view games. They want people to start viewing games as a piecemeal thing so they can make more money off of one game. $100 for one game may seem like a fortune. But $20 for the base game...$10 for an exp potion...$10 for a mount...it all adds up. Soon you are paying way more than $60 for a game.
Yes, you can try to "play the system" and selectively only use the features that are actually free. But the game will be designed to encourage people to pay...in other words, they want to make the completely F2P experience unpleasant.
I don't see how this isn't bad. We're going from a model where you pay $60 and get an entire game, to one where you get nickel and dimed to the point where you very likely wind up paying more.
You can argue that this is better for the consumer because you get to pick and choose exactly what you want to play, but consider this. The rules and pricings are being made by the producer of the product. They want to make money. You want to spend as little as possible. What's good for the producer is bad for the consumer when it comes to making a deal. Since the producer is making all the rules...how do you reckon the coin is going to fall in this deal?
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
I'm currently playing Fallen Earth. It is F2P. I can get every skill level at the same time/rate as everyone else, craft every item, every mount, have tons of bank slots and weapons and be just as competitive as someone using the cs - all completely 100% free.
I have looked at the shop and there is nothing there that I need, and actually nothing I want. I'm wondering how gamersfirst is actually making any money.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
I'm currently playing Fallen Earth. It is F2P. I can get every skill level at the same time/rate as everyone else, craft every item, every mount, have tons of bank slots and weapons and be just as competitive as someone using the cs - all completely 100% free.
I have looked at the shop and there is nothing there that I need, and actually nothing I want. I'm wondering how gamersfirst is actually making any money.
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
I'm currently playing Fallen Earth. It is F2P. I can get every skill level at the same time/rate as everyone else, craft every item, every mount, have tons of bank slots and weapons and be just as competitive as someone using the cs - all completely 100% free.
I have looked at the shop and there is nothing there that I need, and actually nothing I want. I'm wondering how gamersfirst is actually making any money.
Yes. Whats your point, everything I stated is true. I get every skill, can craft every item including mounts, cars and bikes, access all content, have all weapons and equipment completely free.
There is nothing in that shop I want. There are tons of bank slots allready so I don't need any more, I don't need/want either of the shop mounts or the dog, don't need/want the wardrobe slots or the app. The only thing I may want someday is a respec, but not yet. The only thing people who buy things have any advantage on is slightly quicker crafting, but since crafting is offline anyway what do I care. Oh and f2p can only craft 8 hours a day - are you kidding me, 8 hours is a fricken long time.
The game is f2p.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
the point I wa trying to make is that free to play isn't free, not that games hsould be, just that it is false advertizing.
Currently bored with MMO's.
That's bad F2P design, yes.
League of Legends Pizza Company's model is this:
They offer very delicious pizzas.
There are over 60 flavors of pizza
If you don't pay, you can always have one of the 10 rotating flavors of free pizza (this week it's peperoni, hawaiin, and meatlover's)
Next week a different set of flavors will be free.
If you pay, you can permanently always have pepperoni whenever you want.
Good F2P design is the future, because it's win-win for developers and customers. Although arguably the first bullet point -- a quality product -- is far more important than the payment model.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So shame on the developers for trying to get some of that money back for something they took time away from thier families for...
If you can Log in its free ... if you dont like the content thats available dont play the game FFS
This is getting at the heart of it. There is a way to do F2P right. Just that most don't to a greater or lesser degree. Here in the west we are also hampered in that virtually none of the big companies that have shifted in this direction have done it right. Take a look at what PA has put together on the topic. They are "getting it". If you are going to have a free to play game you have to be ok with some people playing for free. Great line. An yes it is an MMO so players are also content. non-paying players are not the enemy they are part of the reason that paying players are willing to stick around.
When it is done right they should be selling convenience and vanity items. And yes, exp boosts are just convenience items since blowing though the game at 2 or 3 times speed is not winning it is simply altering the timeframe in which you get to the parts you want, like the endgame.
And to your third point, exactly correct. "NEVER SELL POWER!!!" Golden rule of F2P. I think that the other rule should be "never sell anything that cannot be otherwise gotten within the game" If the only way to get the sword of uber is by buying it from the cash shop then you have failed. If the only way to get the uber buff is by purchasing a potion of uber then you have failed. It is fine to sell a 2 hr double exp potion because a person still has the choice to simply grind boars for 4 hours rather than just 2. Selling a bundle of 20 herbs on the cash shop is fine if you can also simply spend an hour or two gathering the same 20 herbs somewhere in game. Replacing time with money is fine when it is done reasonably. selling a shining orb of f-yeah for $10 that is a requirement in crafting the sword of uber instead of trying to farm the orb off the only purple sprite that spawns in the endless forest which is a rare, once a week spawn and still only has a .01% chance of dropping the orb is still evil. Sure, you can, in theory farm the orb but in practice you still essentially have to buy it and therefore the sword of uber is still for all reasonable purposes a cash shop only, must have endgame item.
In the end it a it comes down to companies realizing that they don't have to make money off everyone. It is good enough to make your money off only those who can afford it and are willing to redeem some of their time with cash. I cannot remember the source but I read about a recent study that confirmed what many people already knew, that older players with families and jobs spend more than younger players with more free time. Go figure. It is true, some people will spend a bit on convienence if you price it reasonably and don't force it on them.
All die, so die well.
I've played AOC on and off for months, I've been playing fallen earth regularly since it went F2p, I haven't paid a dime, doesn't seem false to me.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
free means free not pay for some, no error in my perception, the error is in what they advertize being not true. F2P has pay options for you to get the whole game. No game is free to play in it's entirety. If they say free and it is not all free then they are not telling the truth. I do not care if you think that they are, they are not. It is not fine that we let people redefine words like free.
Currently bored with MMO's.
It is kind of confusing. Even when people suggest alternate terms - it does not take long before it breaks down in to folks tossing flaming kittens at each other. Yet, alternate terms would eliminate so much of the debate that rages on about them.
B2P - buy to play. There is no subscription. Though, this does not mean there will not be expansions, that there will not be DLC, nor that there will not be some form of item shop involved...does it?
P2P - pay to play. There is a subscription. Though, this does not mean you have to buy the original software. Sometimes it is free and you just pay the monthly sub. Again, this does not mean that there may not be expansions, DLC, nor an item shop.
F2P...F2P...F2P... what differentiates the term? It definitely comes down to how you look at it.
F2P - you do not have to buy the software like you do with B2P.
F2P - you do not have to pay a montly sub like you do with P2P.
F2P - usually means there will be some form of paid expansion, there will be paid DLC, and there will be a cash shop.
Then we get into some subjective things:
B2P - games are designed so you do not spend as much time playing them. It is not cost effective for you to play a lot. They basically got a fixed amount out of you unless you buy expansions, DLC, item shop stuff.
P2P - games are designed so you play in chunks, but you have to play in a lot of chunks - so you continue to pay your sub. Once again, the more you play - the less cost effective you are - the longer you play over a period of time on the other hand...
F2P - games are designed so you spend a lot of time in the cash shop. You did not pay anything for the game, so they did not get any revenue from you there. You are not paying a sub for the bame, so they are not getting any revenue from you there. They are still a business and need to generate revenue and turn a profit.
Thus... F2P games are really just a form of P2P with an alternative payment method...no?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Your analogy shows your misconception about F2P games. A more proper analogy would be closer to this:
Pizza Place: Hey guys! I've got a free pizza for you right here, dig in!
Guys: Alright! Pepperoni my favorite!
Pizza Place: Whooooooa!!! Not so fast partner, I'm only giving away a cheese pizza. If you want extra toppings, you will have to pay for each topping. If you don't want to pay for those toppings, then you can don an apron and go chop up the pepperoni, sausage, onions, olives, etc.
So, in my example, you get the most basic version of the pizza (game) for free. If you want extra toppings (side quests, cosmetics, mounts, etc.) then you either have to buy them or work for them.
That is how the vast majority of F2P games out there work. It's not a deceptive practice to call it what it is only to have other people overlay their assumptions on it.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Free to Play is just that, you can play for free. The cash shop is there to get you to spend money on it. The money has to come from somewhere. So if all you want to do is play, then yes, you can play for free. If you want to be competitive, then naturally you'll have to pay something, well quite a lot actually. Then again, a sub game will have you pay for the box first, then you might discover that the game isn't all that great. Only the box price lost, still it's the box price, something that you won't have to pay for a F2P game.
While a lot of F2P games do the cash shop in a "bad" way, I don't see why it should have to be a "bad" business model. Many sub games cry for new players, F2P players will always have new players to check out the scenery. They could hand out trials, but F2P does have an appeal, even if later on you find that it would cost you too much to play it ay the level you'd like.
Nice breakdown, Virus. I would agree that F2P games, the way they are used by most players, are just a form of P2P with an alternative payment method. However, just because they are used my many players that way, doesn't mean that the F2P label is inaccurate. That would be like saying that a pizza place that gives away cheese pizzas for free is deceptive in saying they have free pizza if most people decide to pay to add toppings to the free cheese pizza. It's not deceptive or inaccurate, it's that the customers use it in a way that ends up costing them money.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
There is no such animal called "free". There is always a cost associated with creating, maintaining, and continued development of a product, culture, or a country. In this case an MMO. You are able to play an MMO w/o paying but there there is a cost of server maintence, employees, electricity, bandwith, janitors, advertisement, rent, suppllies, etc etc. They have to get the cash from somewhere via different outlets. Nothing is "free".
What they should say is restricted Play not F2P, but that wouldnt "sell" well would it...LOL!
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All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
There it is:
It is your invalid assumption and insisting on this error that all content should be 'free' in F2P game.
Only one redefining words here is you.
F2P does not mean All-For-Free, it is a description saying that there is NO FEE for access. No more no less.
to correct you slightly, ' it is a description saying that there is NO FEE for LIMITED access
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Correction is incorrect so please do not correct me...or you just troll?
No, that would describe WAR or WOW's approach.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It gets very difficult, in discussing the deceptive part. It becomes very subjective. Using the pizza analogy though, one can ignore the possible ethical/moral/marketing side and go with the concrete.
You even touched upon it previously in other posts in the thread.
Papa Smurf's Pizza is offering free dine-in pizza this Sunday night for the Steelers v. Ravens game. They've got a bunch of big screen TVs, so how about you come on down and enjoy some free pizza while watching the game! (limit 1 free cheese pizza per party)
You get to Papa Smurf's Pizza with a group of friends - a mix of excited Steelers and Ravens fans. You get a great big booth with an awesome view of the game. You order the free pizza...and order a mix of drinks, both soda and beer. You really don't think about the cost of the soda or the beer. Both are massively overpriced and high profit items for the pizzeria (much like they are for any restaurant type establishment). They're already ahead on profit just from you ordering beverages to go with the free pizza.
The pizza comes. Well Hell, there's too many of you guys for that pizza to feed. So you order more pizzas, pizzas with toppings, etc. Papa Smurf's profits are starting to look pretty good here - based on getting you into the pizzeria with the offer of the free pizza. So while you're there, enjoying the game - socializing - having fun with your friends, enjoying the rivalry, and all that - well, you're going to order more drinks. You're going to order more food - wings, cheese sticks, chili fries, all those great football watching foods. Food's going to be salty...you're going to be thirsty. More drinks. Heck, more pitchers. Though they never seem to have enough in them for anybody - they've got to be cheaper than by the glass, right? Nope.
They made a nice profit, no? And that's the concrete...
...back to the subjective a bit then though:
So did Papa Smurf's lie about the free pizza? Nope. You got the 1 free cheese pizza per party. Did you end up spending a lot of money when all was said and done? Yep. Is that deceptive? Would the reasonable person seeing a thing about a free pizza think that they're getting a free meal? Obviously the pizza is not going to be enough to feed everybody. Obviously the drinks are not going to be free. C'mon, that should be obvious...right?
It's marketing. You're playing on the fact that somebody will see free...want free...and end up spending more money. So yes, it is a very deceptive practice. There are people that recognize the marketing for what it is and ignore it. There will be the people in the case of Papa Smurf's deal that will go in... order the pizza, no drinks, eat it, and leave. Those people are in the minority. The business knows that can happen. They're counting on the people I outlined in the narration above...
So while you may play a F2P game without spending a dime or perhaps a few nickels and dimes; you're not the target audience for the F2P model. You're the accepted risk - the minimum risk. They're looking at getting the people in the door that are going to shell out the cash...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Now that is a great analogy.
It will surely be picked apart as all analogies are when it comes to mmorpg.com'ers. Nonetheless, this F2P "Twilight Zone" phenomena is a dangerous cancer for our genre and it still amazes that so many people fall for it (all with a fucking cheek to cheek smile). This payment model is great for business, but terrible for the consumer. It's never a good sign when people start accepting less for more.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I don't think that's exactly true. Or a good analogy.
I've never played a f2p game where I couldn't eat the whole pizza. I HAVE played f2p games where they would eventually only let me take a bite every 10 minutes.
Oh, I"m sure there must be some f2p games that cut out a good portion of the game unless you pay but I've never experienced any of them.
You can keep playing for free but if you want to level at the exact rate as someone who is willing to drop money or perhaps bypass a death penalty then you need to pay some money. Otherwise you can log in and play until you don't want to and log off.
They are free to play games. They are "free to play". They aren't "free to play at the same rate as paying customers". And that is the difference.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I, like the OP, am not asking that companies give us AAA content absolutely free...we are only arguing that F2P is a deceptive marketing practice. If they called these games "pay a la carte" then I would have no problem with them.
As for your analogy...I think there is a flaw with it. A TV is a piece of hardware, you buy it from stores like Best Buy or Walmart. TV channels are MEDIA, you buy them from from cable/dish companies like Comcast or Dish Network. It is pretty obvious that buying a piece of hardware does not entitle you to every piece of media it can play. No one ever says this, if you think this is how it is, it's because you made it up. This is like thinking if you buy a computer you get every computer game along with it...
F2P is completely different. F2P is specifically talking about a GAME that is free to play. One would expect that the GAME that F2P is referring to, would actually be free to play. You can't just arbitrarily divide it into chunks after the sale and say "well these are free but these aren't."
If it was advertised like that, it would be a different story. If the game said "World of Warcraft, first 20 levels are free to play!" Then that's fine...it's not deceptive. You can play up to level 20 for free, then you have to pay...just like the ad said.
But if it said "World of Warcraft, free to play!!!" Then it WOULD be deceptive if you had to pay after level 20...
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You are correct in that the analogy only applies to certain F2P games. It applies to games where it is free to play PART of the game, but you have to buy the rest (like DDO, as I understand). It does not apply to games that are "pay to skip" where you can buy exp potions to bypass a painful grind.
But IMO, those games are even worse. Because they are specifically designed to have painful grinds so that people will want to pay to skip them.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well, the weirdness of DDO, if it runs like lotro; which I think it does, is that eventually you get the currency trickling in and can purchase extra quests.
So "yes" you can't do all the quests right off the bat because some of them require a purchase. However, if you feel like hanging around and doing the what you can do for a bit then eventually you can purchase more. also, I believe, like lotro, if you buy one thing in the store you then get a small monthly allotment of points to, er, "take the edge off".
The issue would be where there is no choice, you either pay or you never, ever can enter an area. In which case then the game is free to play, meaning you can play it for no money, but you can't play the "whole thing" for free. Which would suck and not be worth it.
As far as grinds go, that's subjective. Still the point is well made in that you would have to repeat things over and over and that's just bad game design.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't think your analogy is better...
In your example, the guy just said "Free pizza" but never specified that it was pepperoni. The guys assumed it was pepperoni...so the advertising wasn't deceptive.
This isn't how F2P works...
F2P games are advertised as being FREE...period. And most people view games (unlike pizza) as being atomic. You buy the game, you get the game. You don't buy levels 1-20 of a game at Gamestop...you buy the game. And if you bought a game and only got levels 1-20...that would be deceptive.
Publishers are trying to change how people view games. They want people to start viewing games as a piecemeal thing so they can make more money off of one game. $100 for one game may seem like a fortune. But $20 for the base game...$10 for an exp potion...$10 for a mount...it all adds up. Soon you are paying way more than $60 for a game.
Yes, you can try to "play the system" and selectively only use the features that are actually free. But the game will be designed to encourage people to pay...in other words, they want to make the completely F2P experience unpleasant.
I don't see how this isn't bad. We're going from a model where you pay $60 and get an entire game, to one where you get nickel and dimed to the point where you very likely wind up paying more.
You can argue that this is better for the consumer because you get to pick and choose exactly what you want to play, but consider this. The rules and pricings are being made by the producer of the product. They want to make money. You want to spend as little as possible. What's good for the producer is bad for the consumer when it comes to making a deal. Since the producer is making all the rules...how do you reckon the coin is going to fall in this deal?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I'm currently playing Fallen Earth. It is F2P. I can get every skill level at the same time/rate as everyone else, craft every item, every mount, have tons of bank slots and weapons and be just as competitive as someone using the cs - all completely 100% free.
I have looked at the shop and there is nothing there that I need, and actually nothing I want. I'm wondering how gamersfirst is actually making any money.
Venge
The FE web shop: http://www.gamersfirst.com/marketplace/fallenearth/index.php?gameID=21&catID=81
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yes. Whats your point, everything I stated is true. I get every skill, can craft every item including mounts, cars and bikes, access all content, have all weapons and equipment completely free.
There is nothing in that shop I want. There are tons of bank slots allready so I don't need any more, I don't need/want either of the shop mounts or the dog, don't need/want the wardrobe slots or the app. The only thing I may want someday is a respec, but not yet. The only thing people who buy things have any advantage on is slightly quicker crafting, but since crafting is offline anyway what do I care. Oh and f2p can only craft 8 hours a day - are you kidding me, 8 hours is a fricken long time.
The game is f2p.
Venge