You buy the original game and pay for the privilege of paying it...that's P2P.
If the company decides to develop more content a year or two later and sell that...then that's okay too. Games have been selling expansion packs for years, it's not a new concept.
My problem with F2P is more about buying virtual goods or other advantages in game. I don't really have an issue with buying access to new content, like an expansion pack or DLC, provided it is reasonably priced.
The key difference between these two is that in the case of buying the game or expansions you are directly paying for work that the developers did, all the players have an equal opportunity to succeed regardless of what they paid, and there is a "price cieling" on what you have to pay to get access to the whole game.
With F2P, you are paying for imaginary goods with completely arbitrary values, players that pay more generally have an advantage, and there is no real price cieling on what you have to pay to get access to everything. And also, the players that want to pay to get all the content will probably wind up paying MORE than they would have in a P2P game just to subsidize the free players' experience.
Anyway, I don't think P2P is perfect, there are definitely problems with it. Such as the fact that the companies don't really need to make the players pay a sub fee to turn a profit. But you know what? I hate it a lot less than the F2P model.
In the end, I think F2P is great for people that can't afford to buy a bunch of games and have a lot of time than money. Like I said before, I probably would have liked F2P when I was a college student. But it's terrible for people that have more money than time and can easily afford to buy any game they want to play. It just means you're going to be paying more than you were before for the same crap.
Another great post, Creslin. The last sentence sums it all up in a nutshell, and it is at the core of my issue with this payment model. Ultimately, if I want to experience the full game (repetition for emphasis: the full game), I'm going to have pay more moula than I would have with the P2P model. I'm not looking to dip my toes nor even half my body into these games. I'm interested in taking a full on old fashioned swim.
As I've said before, there are many ways that I can quickly find out if a game is going to be up my alley or not. Honestly, the more time I spend thinking about it the more preposterous this "F2P" model becomes.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
That is what you get by going from Scavenger to Survivalist... from $0.00 to $9.99 a month.
Thats right and none offer an advantage and some aren't even true.
I can craft everything - I don't need more any coin at all - let alone 10 red chips. So not an advantage.
I can craft 8 hours a day - 8 fricking hoursn and it's offline so I can still play as much as I want. So not an advantage.
The gift doesn't give any advantage
I do get customer support actually - ast least in game. GM helped me out yesterday when my character was stuck.
I do get global chat. The Help channel is the global chat.
Crafting speed is not noticeable - it's offline. So not an advantage.
Harvesting/salvaging takes 6 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.. So not an advantage.
AP gain is random - comes at any time. However by max level I will have ~1960 points. Someone with a subscription will have ~1960 points. . So not an advantage.
Death tolll is virtually non existant. I've died countless times, there is almost no toll and the minor bit of dmg I can repair becasue I can craft everything.. So not an advantage.
Faction games doesn't mean anything anymore because there are no AP points associated with it. . So not an advantage.
So once again, everything you have pointed out looks interesting on paper. But in the game there is no advantage.
Specific examples aside...
My thinking is that if paying in an F2P game offers you no real advantage then...why would you pay? Therefore...it would be a poorly designed F2P system.
You've probably already seen this, but this presentation gives good examples of how both unsuccessful and successful F2P systems can be designed: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win. Note that they basically said they weren't making ends meet until they started selling actual gameplay advantages.
If you wonder why so many of us freak out about F2P, I don't think it's because of what F2P is like now, but what F2P is GOING to be like. We basically see the writing on the wall.
You mentioned earlier that I only pay for subscriptions and expansions because I've basically been conditioned to think that this is "acceptable," and this is absolutely true. This is also what the industry is trying to push with F2P.
As I see it, the industry wants to condition consumers to accept:
1. Paying real money to buy a virtual good for your virtual character.
2. Viewing games as a place where you spend money rather than a product you buy.
3. Paying very large sums of money in one game is acceptable if you really like the game.
4. Paying real money is an acceptable way to increase your chances of victory.
5. That it's okay for a game to advertise its virtual products in game.
I just think all of these points are...bad. And can lead to really bad things. I just don't see F2P going anywhere but exploiting the consumer through the denomination effect.
My thinking is that if paying in an F2P game offers you no real advantage then...why would you pay? Therefore...it would be a poorly designed F2P system.
You've probably already seen this, but this presentation gives good examples of how both unsuccessful and successful F2P systems can be designed: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win. Note that they basically said they weren't making ends meet until they started selling actual gameplay advantages.
If you wonder why so many of us freak out about F2P, I don't think it's because of what F2P is like now, but what F2P is GOING to be like. We basically see the writing on the wall.
You mentioned earlier that I only pay for subscriptions and expansions because I've basically been conditioned to think that this is "acceptable," and this is absolutely true. This is also what the industry is trying to push with F2P.
As I see it, the industry wants to condition consumers to accept:
1. Paying real money to buy a virtual good for your virtual character.
2. Viewing games as a place where you spend money rather than a product you buy.
3. Paying very large sums of money in one game is acceptable if you really like the game.
4. Paying real money is an acceptable way to increase your chances of victory.
5. That it's okay for a game to advertise its virtual products in game.
I just think all of these points are...bad. And can lead to really bad things. I just don't see F2P going anywhere but exploiting the consumer through the denomination effect.
In principle I agree. In order for the f2p game to survive it needs to #1 be fun (if it isn't fun we won't spend a dime), and 2. Give some reason for wanting to buy one (getting rid of grind won't do it, because of #1).
FE is a great game for consumers however I seriously am wondering if they are making any money at all. And because I like it I wouldn't mind buying something however I have no reason to. Give me a super flashy mount or something and I'll buy it. Right now the ones I craft are better. And it may change to offer actual advantages, like I said I like the game but there is absolutely no reason or even desire to use the shop, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't mind using it.
Don't necessarily agree with the last part of your post but. I do think that companies would like that, however as the old adage about the frog and boiling water.... totally false. The frog jumps out. If publishers really are doing then at some point they will end up cutting their nose off.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
My thinking is that if paying in an F2P game offers you no real advantage then...why would you pay? Therefore...it would be a poorly designed F2P system.
You've probably already seen this, but this presentation gives good examples of how both unsuccessful and successful F2P systems can be designed: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win. Note that they basically said they weren't making ends meet until they started selling actual gameplay advantages.
If you wonder why so many of us freak out about F2P, I don't think it's because of what F2P is like now, but what F2P is GOING to be like. We basically see the writing on the wall.
You mentioned earlier that I only pay for subscriptions and expansions because I've basically been conditioned to think that this is "acceptable," and this is absolutely true. This is also what the industry is trying to push with F2P.
As I see it, the industry wants to condition consumers to accept:
1. Paying real money to buy a virtual good for your virtual character.
2. Viewing games as a place where you spend money rather than a product you buy.
3. Paying very large sums of money in one game is acceptable if you really like the game.
4. Paying real money is an acceptable way to increase your chances of victory.
5. That it's okay for a game to advertise its virtual products in game.
I just think all of these points are...bad. And can lead to really bad things. I just don't see F2P going anywhere but exploiting the consumer through the denomination effect.
In principle I agree. In order for the f2p game to survive it needs to #1 be fun (if it isn't fun we won't spend a dime), and 2. Give some reason for wanting to buy one (getting rid of grind won't do it, because of #1).
FE is a great game for consumers however I seriously am wondering if they are making any money at all. And because I like it I wouldn't mind buying something however I have no reason to. Give me a super flashy mount or something and I'll buy it. Right now the ones I craft are better. And it may change to offer actual advantages, like I said I like the game but there is absolutely no reason or even desire to use the shop, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't mind using it.
Don't necessarily agree with the last part of your post but. I do think that companies would like that, however as the old adage about the frog and boiling water.... totally false. The frog jumps out. If publishers really are doing then at some point they will end up cutting their nose off.
Hmmm well we'll see I suppose.
I'm inclined to believe that the frog in boiling water can happen in certain scenarios. I really think if a company were to introduce an F2P model like they have today back in 1999, people would have freaked. Now the climate seems much more accepting of F2P...and I think it's largely due to companies slowly but surely winning consumers over to the F2P model.
But anyway, I realize this is just my inclination, so we'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I remain scared for now .
F2P games often give the illusion that you need these perks to be purchased to progress, but the experienced players know better. F2P tends to mislead inexperienced players thus, why some perceive this model to be dishonest.
CoX this past Tuesday had an interesting pack for sale, which is decent for new players, but for vets all the powers can be obtained through the game or crafted.
F2P, as it has been pointed out , gives you the option of time or money to earn your objective desired
Of course F2P is a myth. The F2P is meant to be a open ended trial, eventually Everyone is expected to buy something from the Cash Shop and Pay for their play. Those players who complain about P2W are actually saying DON"T make me pay for my game time, with items that pertain to my play style. They want the CS filled with Fluffy or Girlie items, they have no intentions of spending money on.
Once again Blizzard has lead the way with the next evolution in F2P. There may be other games that were first to offer a free time limitless trial with a level cap. But as far as I know, WoW is the first AAA game to offer it. SO if another game offered it first congrats to them. WoW's trial with a cap at 10 Didn't give a full feel of the game. The trial should have included the first Dungeons and maybe even first PvP battlegrounds. This is why I feel Level 20 is better, I would have set the cap at 25 or 30. The WoW community that F2P players find at level 20 may even drive them away. We will see.
Asian MMO players have a different mind-set from Western MMO players, and that is why the early F2P games didn't catch on and F2P got associated with bad grindy type games. But as more Western AAA games adopt the F2P model we will see game that match Western tastes of game play.
But realize that F2P earns you are able to TRY the game at no cost, The misconception that you are being allowed to play for years with full access to the games feature at no cost is a misconception and not really a myth. Be ready to pay with a sub, or buy items form the CS that pertain to Your play style. And Don't expect the Fluffy Girlie Costume waring types to pay for your Hardcore PvP and Raiding. Expect to pay $1 a month just to PvP or Raid. And another $1 to equip gear gained from PvP or raids. With out paying your dollar you can't queue up for a battleground or a Raid Dungeon. If you enter a Open Word PvP zone you will be a free target that can't fight back. Pay your dollar every month to be able to equip that Purple you looted last month or bought with your PvP points. Don't pay, and they only thing you can use are grays, whites, and greens. Can't Win? That's to bad. No one every Said it was Free To Win.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
My thinking is that if paying in an F2P game offers you no real advantage then...why would you pay? Therefore...it would be a poorly designed F2P system.
You've probably already seen this, but this presentation gives good examples of how both unsuccessful and successful F2P systems can be designed: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win. Note that they basically said they weren't making ends meet until they started selling actual gameplay advantages.
If you wonder why so many of us freak out about F2P, I don't think it's because of what F2P is like now, but what F2P is GOING to be like. We basically see the writing on the wall.
You mentioned earlier that I only pay for subscriptions and expansions because I've basically been conditioned to think that this is "acceptable," and this is absolutely true. This is also what the industry is trying to push with F2P.
As I see it, the industry wants to condition consumers to accept:
1. Paying real money to buy a virtual good for your virtual character.
2. Viewing games as a place where you spend money rather than a product you buy.
3. Paying very large sums of money in one game is acceptable if you really like the game.
4. Paying real money is an acceptable way to increase your chances of victory.
5. That it's okay for a game to advertise its virtual products in game.
I just think all of these points are...bad. And can lead to really bad things. I just don't see F2P going anywhere but exploiting the consumer through the denomination effect.
In principle I agree. In order for the f2p game to survive it needs to #1 be fun (if it isn't fun we won't spend a dime), and 2. Give some reason for wanting to buy one (getting rid of grind won't do it, because of #1).
FE is a great game for consumers however I seriously am wondering if they are making any money at all. And because I like it I wouldn't mind buying something however I have no reason to. Give me a super flashy mount or something and I'll buy it. Right now the ones I craft are better. And it may change to offer actual advantages, like I said I like the game but there is absolutely no reason or even desire to use the shop, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't mind using it.
Don't necessarily agree with the last part of your post but. I do think that companies would like that, however as the old adage about the frog and boiling water.... totally false. The frog jumps out. If publishers really are doing then at some point they will end up cutting their nose off.
Hmmm well we'll see I suppose.
I'm inclined to believe that the frog in boiling water can happen in certain scenarios. I really think if a company were to introduce an F2P model like they have today back in 1999, people would have freaked. Now the climate seems much more accepting of F2P...and I think it's largely due to companies slowly but surely winning consumers over to the F2P model.
But anyway, I realize this is just my inclination, so we'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I remain scared for now .
Don't you think it is the other way around, that consumers are choosing the F2P model more often and that is why companies are offering them? I mean the trend is that subscription game goes to F2P. Why is that? And when was the last time you heard someone say "dam I wish they would change this free game to a subscription model, it just feels like I am stealing it !! "
I played E and B as my first MMO and loved it for 6 months. At that point the subscription was starting to wear me down though. I started to feel like "I had to play" because I was paying every month. That bothered me but I eventually did come back maybe 6 months later but by then the game was on its last legs. And it bothered me that I didn't play simply because of the subscription.
I also played VCO which was a fantastic game and had tons of fun in it without paying a dime. But it was the classic Pay to Win game which never really bothered me because I don't play to win. Fun is my goal.
I played PWI which many in these forums seem to diss quite often. Again, I enjoyed it and this was a F2P in which I chose to spend a little money, mainly on health buffers which just made the game faster and moe enjoyable. I think I bought some mounts and plenty of fireworks which were cheap and a blast to set off. All in all I was probably paying about 5 bucks a month on average and definitely felt it was worth it.
And for me at least , after playing F2P, I would find it hard to try another subscription game. It is just too much money upfront for me, on something I would not be sure I would enjoy or at least get my money worth. I am definitely in for GW2 though and I am always willing to give any F2P a shot. Fallen Earth is starting to sound interesting!!
But I certainly can't understand why people seem to lump all F2P games together as bad. The game should be the main thing. I can see preferring one payment method over the other, but I cannot see why people simply choose not to play them based on the payment method, or lack therof. I think the anti F2P movement is going to be the minority from now on. But that could all change if game companies get greedy or start withholding more content. Time will tell, as you say. Hopefully we can all get what we want, great MMO's F2P or P2P, I don't care!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I keep hearing about Free to play games. You download them and you can play them, but are they really free? Mostly they have a cashshop where you buy what you need to enjoy the game, so you pay.. not free. Some like LOTRO's f2p have ways to earn points to get things in the "store" but they also sell those points for cash and make it tedious to actuall earn them in game. I suppose there are games that you can "play" for free, but be competitive? Get to level cap? Through all areas of the game? Without paying.. not really sure if that is true. Seems like a myth to me. Discussion? Because i do think this is the future of mmo's.
no game will ever be 100% free to play. the thought of that is simply ridiculous, these companies spend millions of dollars and thousands upon thousands of hours developing these games and you think they're going to give it away completely free. these are still business that need to maintain a positive cash flow to keep making these games. it is a little decieving that they are titled F2P, yes, but no one should be surprised when they have to fork over a little $ at some point.
I'm inclined to believe that the frog in boiling water can happen in certain scenarios. I really think if a company were to introduce an F2P model like they have today back in 1999, people would have freaked. Now the climate seems much more accepting of F2P...and I think it's largely due to companies slowly but surely winning consumers over to the F2P model.
But anyway, I realize this is just my inclination, so we'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I remain scared for now .
Don't you think it is the other way around, that consumers are choosing the F2P model more often and that is why companies are offering them? I mean the trend is that subscription game goes to F2P. Why is that? And when was the last time you heard someone say "dam I wish they would change this free game to a subscription model, it just feels like I am stealing it !! "
I played E and B as my first MMO and loved it for 6 months. At that point the subscription was starting to wear me down though. I started to feel like "I had to play" because I was paying every month. That bothered me but I eventually did come back maybe 6 months later but by then the game was on its last legs. And it bothered me that I didn't play simply because of the subscription.
I also played VCO which was a fantastic game and had tons of fun in it without paying a dime. But it was the classic Pay to Win game which never really bothered me because I don't play to win. Fun is my goal.
I played PWI which many in these forums seem to diss quite often. Again, I enjoyed it and this was a F2P in which I chose to spend a little money, mainly on health buffers which just made the game faster and moe enjoyable. I think I bought some mounts and plenty of fireworks which were cheap and a blast to set off. All in all I was probably paying about 5 bucks a month on average and definitely felt it was worth it.
And for me at least , after playing F2P, I would find it hard to try another subscription game. It is just too much money upfront for me, on something I would not be sure I would enjoy or at least get my money worth. I am definitely in for GW2 though and I am always willing to give any F2P a shot. Fallen Earth is starting to sound interesting!!
But I certainly can't understand why people seem to lump all F2P games together as bad. The game should be the main thing. I can see preferring one payment method over the other, but I cannot see why people simply choose not to play them based on the payment method, or lack therof. I think the anti F2P movement is going to be the minority from now on. But that could all change if game companies get greedy or start withholding more content. Time will tell, as you say. Hopefully we can all get what we want, great MMO's F2P or P2P, I don't care!
Well as I said in another thread, I think that the F2P/microtransaction model is okay in theory. For example, I wouldn't have an issue with a microtransaction game that just charged you slightly more than a B2P game would cost to unlock all the content (along with other restrictions like no P2W). Like if it cost $80 to unlock everything in an F2P game, and there was no P2W or "repeat buyable" items like exp potions...that would be okay.
But none of them work like this, they all rip you off by exploiting the denomination effect. If you want to get "everything" in an F2P game, you will typically be paying hundreds of dollars.
So in the end, F2P versus B/P2P is a trade off. With a B/P2P (I'm talking a PURE B/P2P) game, you get everything for a flat price. Everyone pays the same price.
But with an F2P game you basically have three options:
1. Play a stripped down version of the game for free.
2. Play a partiall stripped down version of the game for a reasonable amount of money.
3. Play the full game for a very large amount of money.
So I mean, the F2P trade-off is great if you don't care about playing a stripped down version of the game. But if you wanted to play the full game, or unlock a lot of stuff, then you will be paying more than you would have had the game just been B2P.
For example, I wouldn't have an issue with a microtransaction game that just charged you slightly more than a B2P game would cost to unlock all the content (along with other restrictions like no P2W). Like if it cost $80 to unlock everything in an F2P game, and there was no P2W or "repeat buyable" items like exp potions...that would be okay.
But none of them work like this, they all rip you off by exploiting the denomination effect. If you want to get "everything" in an F2P game, you will typically be paying hundreds of dollars.
Please. PLEASE. Try one.
Just TRY one. Heck, play it casually for a YEAR and tell me how much you pay.
I have played F2P's for two years and have spent a TOTAL of $60. That's $30 a year. Or, for the BOX PRICE of a major MMO.
Don't get me wrong. They have their issues. Some are horrible. It may take 5 or 6 tries before you find one you like.
But I GUARANTEE you that all the while you're trying them you won't spend a dime.
Only much later after you've chosen it and gotten pretty high up.
And even then you'll be spending next to nothing for it.
For example, I wouldn't have an issue with a microtransaction game that just charged you slightly more than a B2P game would cost to unlock all the content (along with other restrictions like no P2W). Like if it cost $80 to unlock everything in an F2P game, and there was no P2W or "repeat buyable" items like exp potions...that would be okay.
But none of them work like this, they all rip you off by exploiting the denomination effect. If you want to get "everything" in an F2P game, you will typically be paying hundreds of dollars.
Please. PLEASE. Try one.
Just TRY one. Heck, play it casually for a YEAR and tell me how much you pay.
I have played F2P's for two years and have spent a TOTAL of $60. That's $30 a year. Or, for the BOX PRICE of a major MMO.
Don't get me wrong. They have their issues. Some are horrible. It may take 5 or 6 tries before you find one you like.
But I GUARANTEE you that all the while you're trying them you won't spend a dime.
Only much later after you've chosen it and gotten pretty high up.
And even then you'll be spending next to nothing for it.
If I'm playing a demo, a trial, or in a beta - I will not spend a dime. If I like the game, I will either B2P it or P2P it.
Without any of the concerns that come up in a F2P game....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
For example, I wouldn't have an issue with a microtransaction game that just charged you slightly more than a B2P game would cost to unlock all the content (along with other restrictions like no P2W). Like if it cost $80 to unlock everything in an F2P game, and there was no P2W or "repeat buyable" items like exp potions...that would be okay.
But none of them work like this, they all rip you off by exploiting the denomination effect. If you want to get "everything" in an F2P game, you will typically be paying hundreds of dollars.
Please. PLEASE. Try one.
Just TRY one. Heck, play it casually for a YEAR and tell me how much you pay.
I have played F2P's for two years and have spent a TOTAL of $60. That's $30 a year. Or, for the BOX PRICE of a major MMO.
Don't get me wrong. They have their issues. Some are horrible. It may take 5 or 6 tries before you find one you like.
But I GUARANTEE you that all the while you're trying them you won't spend a dime.
Only much later after you've chosen it and gotten pretty high up.
And even then you'll be spending next to nothing for it.
I played LoL and DDO for a short amount of time, didn't spend any money in them though. However, I did look at the cash shop. And it really looked like you would have to spend a lot of money to unlock everything. As I understand, almost all F2P games are like this.
I mean, I know you can have a good time in an F2P game and not spend anything. I did in LoL so obviously that's true.
But if you're the kind of player who likes to have everything in the game available to them...you have to pay a lot of money to get that in an F2P game. Personally I would rather just but the whole thing for a reasonable price and have everything available.
Ah, I see. This ia actually an interesting situation.
I agree with you.
The "Western" (in quotes because I am calling it that although that is likely not quite accurate) F2Ps mostly put content behind paywalls. It's something I don't care for although obviously it is quite successful for them.
The "Eastern" F2P model is different. The entire world, all the classes, etc. are available for everyone. Instead of having unlockable content they focus on selling potions, costumes and tokens for XP-gain, crafting and equipment upgrading.
I play the Eastern types. Runes of Magic, Zentia, etc.
Ah, I see. This ia actually an interesting situation.
I agree with you.
The "Western" (in quotes because I am calling it that although that is likely not quite accurate) F2Ps mostly put content behind paywalls. It's something I don't care for although obviously it is quite successful for them.
The "Eastern" F2P model is different. The entire world, all the classes, etc. are available for everyone. Instead of having unlockable content they focus on selling potions, costumes and tokens for XP-gain, crafting and equipment upgrading.
I play the Eastern types. Runes of Magic, Zentia, etc.
I'm okay with some of the stuff that the eastern models do. Like selling costumes is fine...even selling convenience, like more bag/character slots is okay, but some of the other things they do...I still have problems with.
Anything that allows you to pay money in order to progress through the game faster (pay to skip) is bad in my book. Why? Because it encourages poor game design.
You see, my ideal MMORPG is one where the entire journey is awesome. There's hardly any grind, and if it's there it's unnoticable; you're having fun the whole time you're playing and you don't want to miss anything.
But in an F2P model that sells exp potions...this would never work. Why? Because players wouldn't WANT to skip the game, the majority of them wouldn't buy exp potions because they are having such a good time just playing.
So instead, the F2P game has to ensure there is a grind. Something that many players will want to skip to create a market for their exp potions. This is bad IMO, it stagnates game design.
Now you could argue that all MMORPGs are basically grindy nowadays, and this is true. But deciding to PROFIT off of the grind instead of trying to FIX it destroys hope for the future. I want games to evolve in terms of enjoyment, not in terms of how to profit from what's already there.
F2P is too big of a genre for us to be able to generalize its entire structure. It is an umbrella genre. There are other genre beneath it, all called F2P games. Some F2P games restrict access of certain maps to non-paying members, some F2P games sell stat boosts, while some F2P games only sell aesthetic items.
The only thing that we can generally say is that F2P games are usually games that you can download and play immediately after registration, without worry of an initial payment. What goes after that really depends on the developer and the company managing the game.
Personally, I like LoL's concept of free-2-play. When I saw its metagame system, I thought, "this is a potential source of income". But when I played the game, I was shocked that it couldn't be paid for by money. You have to earn points through playing the game for you to access runes. On the other hand, they do sell champions, which is acceptable IMHO.
I think you forgot to explain how the P2P model does not profit from the "grind". Which makes the argument irrelevant.
In a game you have 2 choices, more content or more grind, it has nothing to do with the payment model. Obviously we all want more content, but that would entail greater expense on the dev's part and hence more risk. As long as people are paying (in whatever fashion) for the games that are out there now, I don't see this changing.
GW gives me a lot of what I want. Progressive story with an obvious endpoint. Even playing field. Easy to group or solo. Etc. etc.... All with a simple upfront fee. Of course people will complain about the instancing and not being a true MMO. In any case, it matters not to me how I pay for it, because it gives me what I want, therefore I play it. And many people agree. I think you need to quit blaming F2P for your gaming woes and start supporting the games you like. Thats really the only way the big companies will listen, is when you start voting with your wallet. If you play a P2P game for a couple months and don't like it...too bad, you have given them what they want already. Perhaps that is bad, because they can recover a large part of their investment just in intial sales. If the game sucks and they close down the loss is minimal. If you start as a F2P your game better be fun or people wil just play and leave. These arguments could go on endlessly but why are we wasting time talking about them?
Let just find the games we like and play them! F2P or B2P seems to do it best for me.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
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Another great post, Creslin. The last sentence sums it all up in a nutshell, and it is at the core of my issue with this payment model. Ultimately, if I want to experience the full game (repetition for emphasis: the full game), I'm going to have pay more moula than I would have with the P2P model. I'm not looking to dip my toes nor even half my body into these games. I'm interested in taking a full on old fashioned swim.
As I've said before, there are many ways that I can quickly find out if a game is going to be up my alley or not. Honestly, the more time I spend thinking about it the more preposterous this "F2P" model becomes.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Specific examples aside...
My thinking is that if paying in an F2P game offers you no real advantage then...why would you pay? Therefore...it would be a poorly designed F2P system.
You've probably already seen this, but this presentation gives good examples of how both unsuccessful and successful F2P systems can be designed: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win. Note that they basically said they weren't making ends meet until they started selling actual gameplay advantages.
If you wonder why so many of us freak out about F2P, I don't think it's because of what F2P is like now, but what F2P is GOING to be like. We basically see the writing on the wall.
You mentioned earlier that I only pay for subscriptions and expansions because I've basically been conditioned to think that this is "acceptable," and this is absolutely true. This is also what the industry is trying to push with F2P.
As I see it, the industry wants to condition consumers to accept:
1. Paying real money to buy a virtual good for your virtual character.
2. Viewing games as a place where you spend money rather than a product you buy.
3. Paying very large sums of money in one game is acceptable if you really like the game.
4. Paying real money is an acceptable way to increase your chances of victory.
5. That it's okay for a game to advertise its virtual products in game.
I just think all of these points are...bad. And can lead to really bad things. I just don't see F2P going anywhere but exploiting the consumer through the denomination effect.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
In principle I agree. In order for the f2p game to survive it needs to #1 be fun (if it isn't fun we won't spend a dime), and 2. Give some reason for wanting to buy one (getting rid of grind won't do it, because of #1).
FE is a great game for consumers however I seriously am wondering if they are making any money at all. And because I like it I wouldn't mind buying something however I have no reason to. Give me a super flashy mount or something and I'll buy it. Right now the ones I craft are better. And it may change to offer actual advantages, like I said I like the game but there is absolutely no reason or even desire to use the shop, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't mind using it.
Don't necessarily agree with the last part of your post but. I do think that companies would like that, however as the old adage about the frog and boiling water.... totally false. The frog jumps out. If publishers really are doing then at some point they will end up cutting their nose off.
Hmmm well we'll see I suppose.
I'm inclined to believe that the frog in boiling water can happen in certain scenarios. I really think if a company were to introduce an F2P model like they have today back in 1999, people would have freaked. Now the climate seems much more accepting of F2P...and I think it's largely due to companies slowly but surely winning consumers over to the F2P model.
But anyway, I realize this is just my inclination, so we'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I remain scared for now
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
F2P games often give the illusion that you need these perks to be purchased to progress, but the experienced players know better. F2P tends to mislead inexperienced players thus, why some perceive this model to be dishonest.
CoX this past Tuesday had an interesting pack for sale, which is decent for new players, but for vets all the powers can be obtained through the game or crafted.
F2P, as it has been pointed out , gives you the option of time or money to earn your objective desired
Of course F2P is a myth. The F2P is meant to be a open ended trial, eventually Everyone is expected to buy something from the Cash Shop and Pay for their play. Those players who complain about P2W are actually saying DON"T make me pay for my game time, with items that pertain to my play style. They want the CS filled with Fluffy or Girlie items, they have no intentions of spending money on.
Once again Blizzard has lead the way with the next evolution in F2P. There may be other games that were first to offer a free time limitless trial with a level cap. But as far as I know, WoW is the first AAA game to offer it. SO if another game offered it first congrats to them. WoW's trial with a cap at 10 Didn't give a full feel of the game. The trial should have included the first Dungeons and maybe even first PvP battlegrounds. This is why I feel Level 20 is better, I would have set the cap at 25 or 30. The WoW community that F2P players find at level 20 may even drive them away. We will see.
Asian MMO players have a different mind-set from Western MMO players, and that is why the early F2P games didn't catch on and F2P got associated with bad grindy type games. But as more Western AAA games adopt the F2P model we will see game that match Western tastes of game play.
But realize that F2P earns you are able to TRY the game at no cost, The misconception that you are being allowed to play for years with full access to the games feature at no cost is a misconception and not really a myth. Be ready to pay with a sub, or buy items form the CS that pertain to Your play style. And Don't expect the Fluffy Girlie Costume waring types to pay for your Hardcore PvP and Raiding. Expect to pay $1 a month just to PvP or Raid. And another $1 to equip gear gained from PvP or raids. With out paying your dollar you can't queue up for a battleground or a Raid Dungeon. If you enter a Open Word PvP zone you will be a free target that can't fight back. Pay your dollar every month to be able to equip that Purple you looted last month or bought with your PvP points. Don't pay, and they only thing you can use are grays, whites, and greens. Can't Win? That's to bad. No one every Said it was Free To Win.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Don't you think it is the other way around, that consumers are choosing the F2P model more often and that is why companies are offering them? I mean the trend is that subscription game goes to F2P. Why is that? And when was the last time you heard someone say "dam I wish they would change this free game to a subscription model, it just feels like I am stealing it !! "
I played E and B as my first MMO and loved it for 6 months. At that point the subscription was starting to wear me down though. I started to feel like "I had to play" because I was paying every month. That bothered me but I eventually did come back maybe 6 months later but by then the game was on its last legs. And it bothered me that I didn't play simply because of the subscription.
I also played VCO which was a fantastic game and had tons of fun in it without paying a dime. But it was the classic Pay to Win game which never really bothered me because I don't play to win. Fun is my goal.
I played PWI which many in these forums seem to diss quite often. Again, I enjoyed it and this was a F2P in which I chose to spend a little money, mainly on health buffers which just made the game faster and moe enjoyable. I think I bought some mounts and plenty of fireworks which were cheap and a blast to set off. All in all I was probably paying about 5 bucks a month on average and definitely felt it was worth it.
And for me at least , after playing F2P, I would find it hard to try another subscription game. It is just too much money upfront for me, on something I would not be sure I would enjoy or at least get my money worth. I am definitely in for GW2 though and I am always willing to give any F2P a shot. Fallen Earth is starting to sound interesting!!
But I certainly can't understand why people seem to lump all F2P games together as bad. The game should be the main thing. I can see preferring one payment method over the other, but I cannot see why people simply choose not to play them based on the payment method, or lack therof. I think the anti F2P movement is going to be the minority from now on. But that could all change if game companies get greedy or start withholding more content. Time will tell, as you say. Hopefully we can all get what we want, great MMO's F2P or P2P, I don't care!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
OTA TV is not free...it is ad supported.
OTA Radio is not free...it is ad supported.
Many of the free game hubs are not free...they are ad supported.
This website is not free...it is ad supported.
Books at the library are not free...either you or your parents are paying taxes.
Public playgrounds are not free...either you or your parents are paying taxes.
Etc, etc, etc...
...so why do people believe it is right to play a MMORPG for free?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
no game will ever be 100% free to play. the thought of that is simply ridiculous, these companies spend millions of dollars and thousands upon thousands of hours developing these games and you think they're going to give it away completely free. these are still business that need to maintain a positive cash flow to keep making these games. it is a little decieving that they are titled F2P, yes, but no one should be surprised when they have to fork over a little $ at some point.
Free online MMOs
Well as I said in another thread, I think that the F2P/microtransaction model is okay in theory. For example, I wouldn't have an issue with a microtransaction game that just charged you slightly more than a B2P game would cost to unlock all the content (along with other restrictions like no P2W). Like if it cost $80 to unlock everything in an F2P game, and there was no P2W or "repeat buyable" items like exp potions...that would be okay.
But none of them work like this, they all rip you off by exploiting the denomination effect. If you want to get "everything" in an F2P game, you will typically be paying hundreds of dollars.
So in the end, F2P versus B/P2P is a trade off. With a B/P2P (I'm talking a PURE B/P2P) game, you get everything for a flat price. Everyone pays the same price.
But with an F2P game you basically have three options:
1. Play a stripped down version of the game for free.
2. Play a partiall stripped down version of the game for a reasonable amount of money.
3. Play the full game for a very large amount of money.
So I mean, the F2P trade-off is great if you don't care about playing a stripped down version of the game. But if you wanted to play the full game, or unlock a lot of stuff, then you will be paying more than you would have had the game just been B2P.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Please. PLEASE. Try one.
Just TRY one. Heck, play it casually for a YEAR and tell me how much you pay.
I have played F2P's for two years and have spent a TOTAL of $60. That's $30 a year. Or, for the BOX PRICE of a major MMO.
Don't get me wrong. They have their issues. Some are horrible. It may take 5 or 6 tries before you find one you like.
But I GUARANTEE you that all the while you're trying them you won't spend a dime.
Only much later after you've chosen it and gotten pretty high up.
And even then you'll be spending next to nothing for it.
If I'm playing a demo, a trial, or in a beta - I will not spend a dime. If I like the game, I will either B2P it or P2P it.
Without any of the concerns that come up in a F2P game....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I played LoL and DDO for a short amount of time, didn't spend any money in them though. However, I did look at the cash shop. And it really looked like you would have to spend a lot of money to unlock everything. As I understand, almost all F2P games are like this.
I mean, I know you can have a good time in an F2P game and not spend anything. I did in LoL so obviously that's true.
But if you're the kind of player who likes to have everything in the game available to them...you have to pay a lot of money to get that in an F2P game. Personally I would rather just but the whole thing for a reasonable price and have everything available.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Ah, I see. This ia actually an interesting situation.
I agree with you.
The "Western" (in quotes because I am calling it that although that is likely not quite accurate) F2Ps mostly put content behind paywalls. It's something I don't care for although obviously it is quite successful for them.
The "Eastern" F2P model is different. The entire world, all the classes, etc. are available for everyone. Instead of having unlockable content they focus on selling potions, costumes and tokens for XP-gain, crafting and equipment upgrading.
I play the Eastern types. Runes of Magic, Zentia, etc.
I'm okay with some of the stuff that the eastern models do. Like selling costumes is fine...even selling convenience, like more bag/character slots is okay, but some of the other things they do...I still have problems with.
Anything that allows you to pay money in order to progress through the game faster (pay to skip) is bad in my book. Why? Because it encourages poor game design.
You see, my ideal MMORPG is one where the entire journey is awesome. There's hardly any grind, and if it's there it's unnoticable; you're having fun the whole time you're playing and you don't want to miss anything.
But in an F2P model that sells exp potions...this would never work. Why? Because players wouldn't WANT to skip the game, the majority of them wouldn't buy exp potions because they are having such a good time just playing.
So instead, the F2P game has to ensure there is a grind. Something that many players will want to skip to create a market for their exp potions. This is bad IMO, it stagnates game design.
Now you could argue that all MMORPGs are basically grindy nowadays, and this is true. But deciding to PROFIT off of the grind instead of trying to FIX it destroys hope for the future. I want games to evolve in terms of enjoyment, not in terms of how to profit from what's already there.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
F2P is too big of a genre for us to be able to generalize its entire structure. It is an umbrella genre. There are other genre beneath it, all called F2P games. Some F2P games restrict access of certain maps to non-paying members, some F2P games sell stat boosts, while some F2P games only sell aesthetic items.
The only thing that we can generally say is that F2P games are usually games that you can download and play immediately after registration, without worry of an initial payment. What goes after that really depends on the developer and the company managing the game.
Personally, I like LoL's concept of free-2-play. When I saw its metagame system, I thought, "this is a potential source of income". But when I played the game, I was shocked that it couldn't be paid for by money. You have to earn points through playing the game for you to access runes. On the other hand, they do sell champions, which is acceptable IMHO.
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Currently Playing: Hellgate Global, LoL, Skyrim, Morrowind
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I think you forgot to explain how the P2P model does not profit from the "grind". Which makes the argument irrelevant.
In a game you have 2 choices, more content or more grind, it has nothing to do with the payment model. Obviously we all want more content, but that would entail greater expense on the dev's part and hence more risk. As long as people are paying (in whatever fashion) for the games that are out there now, I don't see this changing.
GW gives me a lot of what I want. Progressive story with an obvious endpoint. Even playing field. Easy to group or solo. Etc. etc.... All with a simple upfront fee. Of course people will complain about the instancing and not being a true MMO. In any case, it matters not to me how I pay for it, because it gives me what I want, therefore I play it. And many people agree. I think you need to quit blaming F2P for your gaming woes and start supporting the games you like. Thats really the only way the big companies will listen, is when you start voting with your wallet. If you play a P2P game for a couple months and don't like it...too bad, you have given them what they want already. Perhaps that is bad, because they can recover a large part of their investment just in intial sales. If the game sucks and they close down the loss is minimal. If you start as a F2P your game better be fun or people wil just play and leave. These arguments could go on endlessly but why are we wasting time talking about them?
Let just find the games we like and play them! F2P or B2P seems to do it best for me.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!