I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
GW2 is B2P and SWTOR has a sub structure payment plan. This means TOR fans can and will buy GW2 and play it as well. Two very different games will lead to twice the fun.
This leads to many TOR fans not bashing on GW2 because they will play it. But many of the GW2 fans will not play a sub game or a traditional MMO. So they attack what they don't like. Which leads to the bashing of TOR by GW2 fans based on a hate of the standard. Along with the usuall misinformation post about TOR that leads to the back and forth fight.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
There is no official GW2 forum and therefor GW2 fanbois troll and pollute every other MMO forum, especially SW:TOR's because they see this game as a competitor.
Personally I won't play GSW2 but would like to see more than 2 decent MMOs (SW:TOR and GW2) on the market. People need choice so at least 5 good games would be good.
I am not playing GW2 either. The rabid GW2 fanbase is not a group I want to play with. MMOs are as much about the quality of the community as anything else. Btw, I am one of the few that has actually played both.
One has an already awesome community (but could change)
One has a community filled with WoW members, and filled with trolls (from WoW mostly) and 4chan members (first hand experience of the community)
Are you really going to compare the communities of two unreleased games? The biggest douchebag that I've met in another game is a GW player. They laugh at the PvP in this game and say it's not competitive while at the same time being terrible at an arguably easy game.
I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
That is actually very simple. It would be very hard to find anything (seriously) negative about GW2, while the problems with TOR are in a way self obvious. You would really need to bend and twist the facts to say anything bad about ArenaNet's bold and risky creation, that is why apart from sporadical haters who invent as they go it is TOR that takes most of the blows.
We all saw the gameplay videos of both games. It is self evident, like comparing Skyrim to .. Dragon Age 2 (accidentally also by Bioware). It isn't even an opinion, its like mathematical proof.
I think it also comes down a bit to feeling threatened.
Classic themeparks like SWToR are pretty secure. With both GW2, TSW and likely others also doing the voice-over + story thing the storytelling in MMOs is also pretty secure.
GW2's success will have little to no impact on the future of story-based themeparks. Even if it's a huge success there will still be themepark games with a focus on story later on. Especially as WoW is starting to lose subs and developers want to provide an alternative to pick up all those people.
SWToR's success can have a great impact on the future of GW2-style MMOs. If it's a huge success and GW2 isn't also doing equally well or better then it may be a while before we see that design philosophy again. Developers will be much more likely to either pick the same themepark option or if they are innovating they'll likely innovate in different ways.
The SWToR design philosophy is already secure. Even if SWToR itself fails another story-based themepark will come along.
The GW2 design philosophy is far from secure. If GW2 doesn't prove to be a competitor to many other games then it could be a long while before another game like that comes along.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
People have brought up SWTOR vs GW2 threads (order doesn't matter, whatever the title says), and most of them are in the Pub (here) or on the SWTOR forum. Actually, it is really to be expected, as the target audiance for SWTOR is much larger than the fan-base for GW1.
Besides, it is more of a GW2 vs everyone, especially because we (..."rabid fans") see GW2 as being special and different (aka innovative). GW2 fans, like me, have to deal with more than just SWTOR fans, we have to deal with people who think B2P is going to become P2W (which I think most western gamers can agree we deon't really like), or people who think that B2P means that it will be of lesser quality than a subscription MMO or be updated less.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
People have brought up SWTOR vs GW2 threads (order doesn't matter, whatever the title says), and most of them are in the Pub (here) or on the SWTOR forum. Actually, it is really to be expected, as the target audiance for SWTOR is much larger than the fan-base for GW1.
Besides, it is more of a GW2 vs everyone, especially because we (..."rabid fans") see GW2 as being special and different (aka innovative). GW2 fans, like me, have to deal with more than just SWTOR fans, we have to deal with people who think B2P is going to become P2W (which I think most western gamers can agree we deon't really like), or people who think that B2P means that it will be of lesser quality than a subscription MMO or be updated less.
Or people that think B2P is a mere illusion since ANet has stated the game will have paid DLC's along with expansions.
I bash SWToR becasue Ifeel if enough people do so, and enough potential developers see it then maybe we can start seeing a return of MMO's to their sandbox or more meatier substance. ToR like WoW are both good games, the problem is they are simple and appeal to the lowest common denominator. Both off very little actual content and the content it does offer is based on a very archaic and boring gamestyle (raiding) that actually promotes elitism and removes players from the world they so carfully crafted for years.
If more developers would offer the production quality of a WoW or ToR in the open free form sandbox world that promotes adventure, exploration and continuous questlines then I would be a happy camper, but as we have witnessed over the last 4 1/2 years starting with AoC, WAR, Aion, and Rift that the themepark gameplay is not as popular as developers think. Because of this I forsee SWToR having a good release and then quickly loosing customers due to the above scenario.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
Pretty myopic of you since there are frequent visitors to the GW2 forums who go there specifically to bash. I'm sure *none* of them are SWTOR fans, right?
Woah, this is taff to answer, I give U 3 ways: (Beforehand, I am (Pro: GW2) but thus, not necessarily (Con: SWTOR))
mathematical (pretty much...) approach
Obviously, you can make it simple and say: (GW2 - innovative MMOG) vs (SWTOR - standard MMOG) and because hypothesis(!): innovative > standard, if one assumes this hypothesis is true than it is: GW2 > SWTOR
, qed ;-) (not really, I know...^^)
costructive approach
I, for one trust ANet more than Bioware and when I think about it I come to the conclusion that it is because they create something what I like to call a frame of trustworthiness around their product. The reasons I believe ANet is a Trustworthy company are countless, summed up I would say that is just their way of communication: They promise that they only publish Information about stuff that is absolutetly going to be in the game because it is already in a very smooth implementation in-game. The difference to other companys now is simply like the difference between (guarantee - ANet) and (promise - BNet) in Commercials. Thus, people trusting the trustworthy feel on the safer side. And I believe that alot of people simply feel on the right side with Guild Wars 2 than with Star Wars: The Old Republic. Conclusion: There are more (SWTOR: Con) than (GW2: Con)
destructive approach
Maybe, somewhere deep within our brains, we all, everybody on MMORPG.com, love GW2 and thus, subconsciously we tend not to dislike GW2. ;-)
I bash SWToR becasue Ifeel if enough people do so, and enough potential developers see it then maybe we can start seeing a return of MMO's to their sandbox or more meatier substance. ToR like WoW are both good games, the problem is they are simple and appeal to the lowest common denominator. Both off very little actual content and the content it does offer is based on a very archaic and boring gamestyle (raiding) that actually promotes elitism and removes players from the world they so carfully crafted for years.
If more developers would offer the production quality of a WoW or ToR in the open free form sandbox world that promotes adventure, exploration and continuous questlines then I would be a happy camper, but as we have witnessed over the last 4 1/2 years starting with AoC, WAR, Aion, and Rift that the themepark gameplay is not as popular as developers think. Because of this I forsee SWToR having a good release and then quickly loosing customers due to the above scenario.
My Sig says it all!
The market doesn't play games (pun not intended). If investors see a product model that is widely successful, they will mimick that model. Millions of dollars go into the production of these games and most are not willing to take such an enormous risk when so many signs point otherwise. Pretty much every game that has gone down the sandbox route has either failed or appealed to a small share of consumers. The market does not care about a small minority that desires the niche features of a sandbox game. It cares about what makes the most money because in the end, "money is what makes the world go round".
Yeah don't bash GW2, it's going to change peoples lives , its the second coming of MMO-Christ, its the most innovative revolutionary game ever created! Nothing like it has ever been seen before by mere mortals eyes!
I was sooo going to play it too, but then I got to play ToR and realized I wouldnt have time anyway, Ill keep my action titles on the xbox :P
Actually GW2 will be heavily group focused since there is no reason to not help each other. It's not hype at all. There are no solo quests which is the main culprit of the solo mentality in most games. Everything you can do in the game from killing a mob to completing a dynamic event you can do with random people around you without fear of them tapping your mobs or stealing your xp. How you could consider this dev hype and not how it actually works is beyond me. Rift and War still had quests and other things you did as well as penalties for other people hitting your mobs or grouping up when the quest or mob only needs one person to kill. GW2 has eliminated all of this. So please enlighten me on how this is dev hype.
As far as the gw2 vs swtor thing is concerned, who honestly cares? Play what you like and at the end of the day neither game will have an impact on the other.
All the things you bring up regarding a player's interest in grouping in GW2 are EXACTLY THE SAME as in SWTOR. There is no reason for SWTOR players to not help each other, either, as it's in a player's best interests to get credit for all the mobs that you all kill and nodes that you all use.
Point being, the same people who will choose to solo in SWTOR will also solo in GW2.
That said, I agree with your final statement 100%. It's likely that I'll play both.
Unless I'm missing something about how SW:TOR works:
- In GW2, if you go help some ungrouped player kill a mob, you get the same loot, gold, and XP as you would get by killing the mob solo, without reducing in any way the rewards the original player gets. In SW:TOR, you get nothing, since the mob would already be tagged.
- In the same token, if you try and attack a mob before another ungrouped player, in SW:TOR you basically steal the mob, preventing the player from getting any rewards. In GW2 the other player can still enter the fray and get the full rewards for it.
- If you group in SW:TOR and go kill a mob, each player in the group gets less gold and XP than if he had killed the mob solo, and the loot is likewise divided. In GW2, every player in the group gets the full XP, gold, and loot that a solo player would get by killing the mob - i.e., in practice the loot and XP is multiplied by the number of players in the group.
- GW2 equivalent to sidequests are events broadcasted across a zone, thus making it quite more likely that ungrouped players will meet and work together. Also, they scale with the number of players, so there is no group size issue, everyone who shows up can participate.
- In SW:TOR, if you already did a sidequest, you won't get the rewards again for helping another player do that quest; if the quest is part of a chain and you didn't do the previous ones, you are also prevented from getting the quest, and thus from getting it's rewards. If there is phasing involved, you might even be prevented from helping at all. In GW2, you are always able to help in a event, and will always get the reward afterwards, no matter which quests you did before or if you already completed that event once.
SW:TOR mostly copied the WoW model of questing and grouping, and seems poised to have the same issues with not really being able to make players group in any situation where grouping is not actually mandatory. GW2, on the other hand, mostly developed a new system from the ground up focused in making sure players have no reason to avoid each other, and every reason to play together. To achieve that, ANet is willing to risk the possibility grouped players might be able to level absurdly faster than ungrouped players, or that groups of players farming together will most likely earn much more loot per player than a solo player.
Also - and this is what I really like in how grouping will work in GW2 - there is no requirement to formally group in GW2 before enjoying the benefits of playing together. If you just find another lone player and starts following and helping him, even without grouping, you both will benefit as if you had formally grouped. There is no skill that only works on grouped players, all skill combos will work even if ungrouped players do each part, etc. Without the requirement to formally group, even players already in another group or shy players that would never ask for a group will be able to play together.
Obviously, you can make it simple and say: (GW2 - innovative MMOG) vs (SWTOR - standard MMOG) and because hypothesis(!): innovative > standard, if one assumes this hypothesis is true than it is: GW2 > SWTOR
, qed ;-) (not really, I know...^^)
But what if innovation = instancing and/or phasing? I'm fine with those things and apreciate the development possibilities that they bring, but many are not.
What if innovation = autogrouping ala' STO and Rift? Many people aren't fond. Again, I didn't mind it.
What if innovation = making 2 different players control different bits of the same character? One player moves left/right, the other forward/back...
Yeah, I know you're just playin'... just thought I would, too.
I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
I suspect you visit the TOR forums a lot more than the GW2 forums, which is probably the main reason why you are under the impression that GW2 fans bash TOR more than the other way around. I don't care much for TOR and only visit the TOR forum when there is some piece of news that might be marginally interesting. I am looking forward to GW2 however and when another hate thread pops up there it's almost invariably a TOR fan proving how uninformed they have managed to remain on the subject of GW2.
I don't know who "you SWTOR" are exactly, but if you think that all SWTOR fans say absolutely nothing about GW2, then you're simply quite wrong.
Here's an idea: Buy the game you want to play and play it. Ignore the people in forums. Both games will no doubt sell more than enough copies and maintain a user base which will allow them to be successful.
I will be playing both. Why? BECAUSE YOU CAN PLAY AND LIKE MORE THAN 1 MMO! *GASP*
I have a question.. Why is it that all the Guild Wars 2 fans, feel the need to completely bash SWTOR, but we SWTOR don't care, and say nothing about Guild Wars 2.. has always blown my mind.
Talint
[Mod Edit]
That is actually very simple. It would be very hard to find anything (seriously) negative about GW2, while the problems with TOR are in a way self obvious. You would really need to bend and twist the facts to say anything bad about ArenaNet's bold and risky creation, that is why apart from sporadical haters who invent as they go it is TOR that takes most of the blows.
We all saw the gameplay videos of both games. It is self evident, like comparing Skyrim to .. Dragon Age 2 (accidentally also by Bioware). It isn't even an opinion, its like mathematical proof.
Are you for real? in the end it boils down to personal preference. I can list many negatives about GW2 but you will shurg them off calling it innovation or revolutionary. So why even bother if someone mentions anything negative about GW2? you make GW2 sound perfect which it is not.
Your taste or personal preference is just what it is..preference, it is not a proof.
I'll tend to jump in when I see blatant disinformation about what GW2 is doing coming from people bashing it. Even this far into it you still see people thinking they can roll a tank or a healer and you want to facepalm yourself, and facepalm them with a 2 by 4 for having no clue as to what they're trying to bash. Usually I see SW:ToR types bashing GW2 because of it's innovative concepts... concepts that remain at the heart of SW:ToR.
I tanked for far too long in WoW. Eventually the grind game became more of a job; I was finally able to simply never log back in after moving the family cross country for a new job. Haven't missed it. Won't do it again... not even in space.
Soup... out of curiosity, what would you consider negatives regarding GW2, and why?
Actually GW2 will be heavily group focused since there is no reason to not help each other. It's not hype at all. There are no solo quests which is the main culprit of the solo mentality in most games. Everything you can do in the game from killing a mob to completing a dynamic event you can do with random people around you without fear of them tapping your mobs or stealing your xp. How you could consider this dev hype and not how it actually works is beyond me. Rift and War still had quests and other things you did as well as penalties for other people hitting your mobs or grouping up when the quest or mob only needs one person to kill. GW2 has eliminated all of this. So please enlighten me on how this is dev hype.
As far as the gw2 vs swtor thing is concerned, who honestly cares? Play what you like and at the end of the day neither game will have an impact on the other.
All the things you bring up regarding a player's interest in grouping in GW2 are EXACTLY THE SAME as in SWTOR. There is no reason for SWTOR players to not help each other, either, as it's in a player's best interests to get credit for all the mobs that you all kill and nodes that you all use.
Point being, the same people who will choose to solo in SWTOR will also solo in GW2.
That said, I agree with your final statement 100%. It's likely that I'll play both.
Unless I'm missing something about how SW:TOR works:
- In GW2, if you go help some ungrouped player kill a mob, you get the same loot, gold, and XP as you would get by killing the mob solo, without reducing in any way the rewards the original player gets. In SW:TOR, you get nothing, since the mob would already be tagged.
- In the same token, if you try and attack a mob before another ungrouped player, in SW:TOR you basically steal the mob, preventing the player from getting any rewards. In GW2 the other player can still enter the fray and get the full rewards for it.
- If you group in SW:TOR and go kill a mob, each player in the group gets less gold and XP than if he had killed the mob solo, and the loot is likewise divided. In GW2, every player in the group gets the full XP, gold, and loot that a solo player would get by killing the mob - i.e., in practice the loot and XP is multiplied by the number of players in the group.
Ah, I get it. I misunderstood what they typed.
I see the positives and negatives from a system like that. The positives are obvious; people will run in packs without being forced into grouping. And just MAYBE they might do the unspeakable... speak to each other! :P
The negatives? Challenge and exploitation. Where the challenge won't be in killing the monster, but rather getting a shot in before your crowd of folks blows each mob into oblivion. And of course, players will always choose the path of least resistance, and get about the same rewards for it.
It's not a fatal problem; CoX has been doing something similar for years, where levelling and "loot" (such as it is in CoX) comes quicker grouped than solo. But if it's this way in open areas, it's hard telling how that'll work. It doesn't work well in CoX in the open areas.
- GW2 equivalent to sidequests are events broadcasted across a zone, thus making it quite more likely that ungrouped players will meet and work together. Also, they scale with the number of players, so there is no group size issue, everyone who shows up can participate.
I've seen how this goes in Rift. And IMO, it isn't pretty. Again, it MIGHT be good. No telling til' it releases.
- In SW:TOR, if you already did a sidequest, you won't get the rewards again for helping another player do that quest; if the quest is part of a chain and you didn't do the previous ones, you are also prevented from getting the quest, and thus from getting it's rewards. If there is phasing involved, you might even be prevented from helping at all. In GW2, you are always able to help in a event, and will always get the reward afterwards, no matter which quests you did before or if you already completed that event once.
I don't believe that's how it works in SWTOR. It's hard to say, since given the way missions are structured. It's possible that they don't get credit for it if they're doing it again. But quest "chains" are really, like a half hour long at most and moving through the "links" occurs in the field.
Class Quests ARE pretty restrictive for same-class players. That may be TOR's biggest weakness regarding grouping.
SW:TOR mostly copied the WoW model of questing and grouping, and seems poised to have the same issues with not really being able to make players group in any situation where grouping is not actually mandatory. GW2, on the other hand, mostly developed a new system from the ground up focused in making sure players have no reason to avoid each other, and every reason to play together. To achieve that, ANet is willing to risk the possibility grouped players might be able to level absurdly faster than ungrouped players, or that groups of players farming together will most likely earn much more loot per player than a solo player.
It's a gamble that works fairly well in CoX. We'll see what happens when they go that extra step, here.
Also - and this is what I really like in how grouping will work in GW2 - there is no requirement to formally group in GW2 before enjoying the benefits of playing together. If you just find another lone player and starts following and helping him, even without grouping, you both will benefit as if you had formally grouped. There is no skill that only works on grouped players, all skill combos will work even if ungrouped players do each part, etc. Without the requirement to formally group, even players already in another group or shy players that would never ask for a group will be able to play together.
Funny thing... it almost goes full circle. The old MUD's never even had grouping utilities. You had one: /follow
But they never had any real penalization against players all going after the same mob, either.
It's all really gonna hinge upon how their system works for raising difficulty/number of mobs for players in the area. Can it be done without creating an avenue for griefing? Can it be done without some poor soul wandering alone into the same general area to get pounced on by 3 elite mobs? If so, it will definitely be groundbreaking, especially if done in a way that doesn't seem "artificial".
The negatives? Challenge and exploitation. Where the challenge won't be in killing the monster, but rather getting a shot in before your crowd of folks blows each mob into oblivion. And of course, players will always choose the path of least resistance, and get about the same rewards for it.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was the fact that the events scale to the number of active participants, so if more people join the event will scale in difficulty, doing things like adding more mobs, giving the boss more health, more skills, etc. in order to keep to keep it challenging for the number of people present. There won't be any massive mob of people steamrolling events.
I bash SWToR becasue Ifeel if enough people do so, and enough potential developers see it then maybe we can start seeing a return of MMO's to their sandbox or more meatier substance. Both off very little actual content
If more developers would offer the production quality of a WoW or ToR in the open free form sandbox world that promotes adventure, exploration and continuous questlines
I find your lack of perspective disturbing. And amusing.
TOR only offers "very little actual content" ?
LALAWLALWLWLAWLALWWALALWLWLAWLALLWLAW
That is a good joke. It's the most content rich game ever created. Ever. That isn't opinion that is cold, hard fact. To tell us otherwise is lunacy. Total and complete "should be strapped into a vest" madness.
Continuous questlines?
Explain how that is possible. And... go!
So you want a "sandbox" MMO with never-ending quest content?
Sounds like a themepark game to me. Or are you talking more like Skyrim's Radiant AI?
Even that still gives you pretty much nothing but kill, collect, travel quests and SWG did that a decade ago with mission terminals.
Explain to me what "meatier substance" is?
Grinding? Player versus player? Ganking? Griefing? Looting other players?
Or is it open-world housing that in EVERY MMO that features it turns the NPC cities into ghost towns and creates ugly, pointless urban sprawl except for the handful of blokes who in in a player city at any given time?
Is it quote "complex" crafting that is really nothing more then grinding and a little but of attribute modification like SWG had? Here's a hint - TOR has just as complex of crafting and item modification. Also fact.
Or having resources of different levels of quality is really the determining edge given to SWG? Managing collectors and harvestors sounds more like the inspiration for Farmville not good MMO design.
People like you (and I really do mean NO offense) say a lot of great sounding hyperbole but NEVER define how these things would ACTUALLY work in a live game.
And why? Because they have been tried and you know what? In those games, they either don't exist anymore or are small niche titles.
No AAA studio is ever going to TOUCH something that is proven throughout MMO history to be niche.
Comments
GW2 is B2P and SWTOR has a sub structure payment plan. This means TOR fans can and will buy GW2 and play it as well. Two very different games will lead to twice the fun.
This leads to many TOR fans not bashing on GW2 because they will play it. But many of the GW2 fans will not play a sub game or a traditional MMO. So they attack what they don't like. Which leads to the bashing of TOR by GW2 fans based on a hate of the standard. Along with the usuall misinformation post about TOR that leads to the back and forth fight.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I am not playing GW2 either. The rabid GW2 fanbase is not a group I want to play with. MMOs are as much about the quality of the community as anything else. Btw, I am one of the few that has actually played both.
Are you really going to compare the communities of two unreleased games? The biggest douchebag that I've met in another game is a GW player. They laugh at the PvP in this game and say it's not competitive while at the same time being terrible at an arguably easy game.
That is actually very simple. It would be very hard to find anything (seriously) negative about GW2, while the problems with TOR are in a way self obvious. You would really need to bend and twist the facts to say anything bad about ArenaNet's bold and risky creation, that is why apart from sporadical haters who invent as they go it is TOR that takes most of the blows.
We all saw the gameplay videos of both games. It is self evident, like comparing Skyrim to .. Dragon Age 2 (accidentally also by Bioware). It isn't even an opinion, its like mathematical proof.
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570
I think it also comes down a bit to feeling threatened.
Classic themeparks like SWToR are pretty secure. With both GW2, TSW and likely others also doing the voice-over + story thing the storytelling in MMOs is also pretty secure.
GW2's success will have little to no impact on the future of story-based themeparks. Even if it's a huge success there will still be themepark games with a focus on story later on. Especially as WoW is starting to lose subs and developers want to provide an alternative to pick up all those people.
SWToR's success can have a great impact on the future of GW2-style MMOs. If it's a huge success and GW2 isn't also doing equally well or better then it may be a while before we see that design philosophy again. Developers will be much more likely to either pick the same themepark option or if they are innovating they'll likely innovate in different ways.
The SWToR design philosophy is already secure. Even if SWToR itself fails another story-based themepark will come along.
The GW2 design philosophy is far from secure. If GW2 doesn't prove to be a competitor to many other games then it could be a long while before another game like that comes along.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
you're not looking hard enough if you don't think SWTOR fans are bashing Gw2
People have brought up SWTOR vs GW2 threads (order doesn't matter, whatever the title says), and most of them are in the Pub (here) or on the SWTOR forum. Actually, it is really to be expected, as the target audiance for SWTOR is much larger than the fan-base for GW1.
Besides, it is more of a GW2 vs everyone, especially because we (..."rabid fans") see GW2 as being special and different (aka innovative). GW2 fans, like me, have to deal with more than just SWTOR fans, we have to deal with people who think B2P is going to become P2W (which I think most western gamers can agree we deon't really like), or people who think that B2P means that it will be of lesser quality than a subscription MMO or be updated less.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Or people that think B2P is a mere illusion since ANet has stated the game will have paid DLC's along with expansions.
I bash SWToR becasue Ifeel if enough people do so, and enough potential developers see it then maybe we can start seeing a return of MMO's to their sandbox or more meatier substance. ToR like WoW are both good games, the problem is they are simple and appeal to the lowest common denominator. Both off very little actual content and the content it does offer is based on a very archaic and boring gamestyle (raiding) that actually promotes elitism and removes players from the world they so carfully crafted for years.
If more developers would offer the production quality of a WoW or ToR in the open free form sandbox world that promotes adventure, exploration and continuous questlines then I would be a happy camper, but as we have witnessed over the last 4 1/2 years starting with AoC, WAR, Aion, and Rift that the themepark gameplay is not as popular as developers think. Because of this I forsee SWToR having a good release and then quickly loosing customers due to the above scenario.
My Sig says it all!
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Pretty myopic of you since there are frequent visitors to the GW2 forums who go there specifically to bash. I'm sure *none* of them are SWTOR fans, right?
Troublemaker.
Woah, this is taff to answer, I give U 3 ways: (Beforehand, I am (Pro: GW2) but thus, not necessarily (Con: SWTOR))
mathematical (pretty much...) approach
Obviously, you can make it simple and say: (GW2 - innovative MMOG) vs (SWTOR - standard MMOG) and because hypothesis(!): innovative > standard, if one assumes this hypothesis is true than it is: GW2 > SWTOR
, qed ;-) (not really, I know...^^)
costructive approach
I, for one trust ANet more than Bioware and when I think about it I come to the conclusion that it is because they create something what I like to call a frame of trustworthiness around their product. The reasons I believe ANet is a Trustworthy company are countless, summed up I would say that is just their way of communication: They promise that they only publish Information about stuff that is absolutetly going to be in the game because it is already in a very smooth implementation in-game. The difference to other companys now is simply like the difference between (guarantee - ANet) and (promise - BNet) in Commercials. Thus, people trusting the trustworthy feel on the safer side. And I believe that alot of people simply feel on the right side with Guild Wars 2 than with Star Wars: The Old Republic. Conclusion: There are more (SWTOR: Con) than (GW2: Con)
destructive approach
Maybe, somewhere deep within our brains, we all, everybody on MMORPG.com, love GW2 and thus, subconsciously we tend not to dislike GW2. ;-)
The market doesn't play games (pun not intended). If investors see a product model that is widely successful, they will mimick that model. Millions of dollars go into the production of these games and most are not willing to take such an enormous risk when so many signs point otherwise. Pretty much every game that has gone down the sandbox route has either failed or appealed to a small share of consumers. The market does not care about a small minority that desires the niche features of a sandbox game. It cares about what makes the most money because in the end, "money is what makes the world go round".
Yeah don't bash GW2, it's going to change peoples lives , its the second coming of MMO-Christ, its the most innovative revolutionary game ever created! Nothing like it has ever been seen before by mere mortals eyes!
I was sooo going to play it too, but then I got to play ToR and realized I wouldnt have time anyway, Ill keep my action titles on the xbox :P
*snickers* i joke i joke
Unless I'm missing something about how SW:TOR works:
- In GW2, if you go help some ungrouped player kill a mob, you get the same loot, gold, and XP as you would get by killing the mob solo, without reducing in any way the rewards the original player gets. In SW:TOR, you get nothing, since the mob would already be tagged.
- In the same token, if you try and attack a mob before another ungrouped player, in SW:TOR you basically steal the mob, preventing the player from getting any rewards. In GW2 the other player can still enter the fray and get the full rewards for it.
- If you group in SW:TOR and go kill a mob, each player in the group gets less gold and XP than if he had killed the mob solo, and the loot is likewise divided. In GW2, every player in the group gets the full XP, gold, and loot that a solo player would get by killing the mob - i.e., in practice the loot and XP is multiplied by the number of players in the group.
- GW2 equivalent to sidequests are events broadcasted across a zone, thus making it quite more likely that ungrouped players will meet and work together. Also, they scale with the number of players, so there is no group size issue, everyone who shows up can participate.
- In SW:TOR, if you already did a sidequest, you won't get the rewards again for helping another player do that quest; if the quest is part of a chain and you didn't do the previous ones, you are also prevented from getting the quest, and thus from getting it's rewards. If there is phasing involved, you might even be prevented from helping at all. In GW2, you are always able to help in a event, and will always get the reward afterwards, no matter which quests you did before or if you already completed that event once.
SW:TOR mostly copied the WoW model of questing and grouping, and seems poised to have the same issues with not really being able to make players group in any situation where grouping is not actually mandatory. GW2, on the other hand, mostly developed a new system from the ground up focused in making sure players have no reason to avoid each other, and every reason to play together. To achieve that, ANet is willing to risk the possibility grouped players might be able to level absurdly faster than ungrouped players, or that groups of players farming together will most likely earn much more loot per player than a solo player.
Also - and this is what I really like in how grouping will work in GW2 - there is no requirement to formally group in GW2 before enjoying the benefits of playing together. If you just find another lone player and starts following and helping him, even without grouping, you both will benefit as if you had formally grouped. There is no skill that only works on grouped players, all skill combos will work even if ungrouped players do each part, etc. Without the requirement to formally group, even players already in another group or shy players that would never ask for a group will be able to play together.
But what if innovation = instancing and/or phasing? I'm fine with those things and apreciate the development possibilities that they bring, but many are not.
What if innovation = autogrouping ala' STO and Rift? Many people aren't fond. Again, I didn't mind it.
What if innovation = making 2 different players control different bits of the same character? One player moves left/right, the other forward/back...
Yeah, I know you're just playin'... just thought I would, too.
I suspect you visit the TOR forums a lot more than the GW2 forums, which is probably the main reason why you are under the impression that GW2 fans bash TOR more than the other way around. I don't care much for TOR and only visit the TOR forum when there is some piece of news that might be marginally interesting. I am looking forward to GW2 however and when another hate thread pops up there it's almost invariably a TOR fan proving how uninformed they have managed to remain on the subject of GW2.
I don't know who "you SWTOR" are exactly, but if you think that all SWTOR fans say absolutely nothing about GW2, then you're simply quite wrong.
Yes and I want to add that I did it for my implication if you know what I mean, not for SWTOR > GW2 because it's simply not my game...
Here's an idea: Buy the game you want to play and play it. Ignore the people in forums. Both games will no doubt sell more than enough copies and maintain a user base which will allow them to be successful.
I will be playing both. Why? BECAUSE YOU CAN PLAY AND LIKE MORE THAN 1 MMO! *GASP*
/thread
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Are you for real? in the end it boils down to personal preference. I can list many negatives about GW2 but you will shurg them off calling it innovation or revolutionary. So why even bother if someone mentions anything negative about GW2? you make GW2 sound perfect which it is not.
Your taste or personal preference is just what it is..preference, it is not a proof.
I'll tend to jump in when I see blatant disinformation about what GW2 is doing coming from people bashing it. Even this far into it you still see people thinking they can roll a tank or a healer and you want to facepalm yourself, and facepalm them with a 2 by 4 for having no clue as to what they're trying to bash. Usually I see SW:ToR types bashing GW2 because of it's innovative concepts... concepts that remain at the heart of SW:ToR.
I tanked for far too long in WoW. Eventually the grind game became more of a job; I was finally able to simply never log back in after moving the family cross country for a new job. Haven't missed it. Won't do it again... not even in space.
Soup... out of curiosity, what would you consider negatives regarding GW2, and why?
Oderint, dum metuant.
@ Robsolf:
The negatives? Challenge and exploitation. Where the challenge won't be in killing the monster, but rather getting a shot in before your crowd of folks blows each mob into oblivion. And of course, players will always choose the path of least resistance, and get about the same rewards for it.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was the fact that the events scale to the number of active participants, so if more people join the event will scale in difficulty, doing things like adding more mobs, giving the boss more health, more skills, etc. in order to keep to keep it challenging for the number of people present. There won't be any massive mob of people steamrolling events.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I find your lack of perspective disturbing. And amusing.
TOR only offers "very little actual content" ?
LALAWLALWLWLAWLALWWALALWLWLAWLALLWLAW
That is a good joke. It's the most content rich game ever created. Ever. That isn't opinion that is cold, hard fact. To tell us otherwise is lunacy. Total and complete "should be strapped into a vest" madness.
Continuous questlines?
Explain how that is possible. And... go!
So you want a "sandbox" MMO with never-ending quest content?
Sounds like a themepark game to me. Or are you talking more like Skyrim's Radiant AI?
Even that still gives you pretty much nothing but kill, collect, travel quests and SWG did that a decade ago with mission terminals.
Explain to me what "meatier substance" is?
Grinding? Player versus player? Ganking? Griefing? Looting other players?
Or is it open-world housing that in EVERY MMO that features it turns the NPC cities into ghost towns and creates ugly, pointless urban sprawl except for the handful of blokes who in in a player city at any given time?
Is it quote "complex" crafting that is really nothing more then grinding and a little but of attribute modification like SWG had? Here's a hint - TOR has just as complex of crafting and item modification. Also fact.
Or having resources of different levels of quality is really the determining edge given to SWG? Managing collectors and harvestors sounds more like the inspiration for Farmville not good MMO design.
People like you (and I really do mean NO offense) say a lot of great sounding hyperbole but NEVER define how these things would ACTUALLY work in a live game.
And why? Because they have been tried and you know what? In those games, they either don't exist anymore or are small niche titles.
No AAA studio is ever going to TOUCH something that is proven throughout MMO history to be niche.
FACT.
I'm sure it's been said, many times many ways, both side feel the same, do the same, just worded differently.